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General => General Board => Topic started by: Fulanizzle on September 11, 2002, 01:44:16 AM

Title: puzzling
Post by: Fulanizzle on September 11, 2002, 01:44:16 AM
Salamu alaikum wa rahmatullah Tala wa barkatu
-------------------------------------------------------
 ?Alot has been going round about Amina Lawal...

There is a lot to that issue..but what puzzles me most is that whyyyyyy in the world would there be any ?argument ?or doubt ?if the man is the father ?of Amina's child. ???? ??? ??? !!!!!!!!!!!!!
HELLOOOOOO we are in like what?? ? the year 2002.........right..... and there is a little something we call a BLOOD TEST!!!

The child is there, the mother is there, and an accused man is there and let the blood tests begin...
 ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

And personally, i dont think this story ?is as big as Safiya's case...

but i have a feeling a guilty man is being laid off so easily....but only Allah Subhana wa ta'ala knows....




Oh, and here is a lesson for yall ?girls out there....."See, a man can get away with it and but the girl is being left behind pregnant ?and ?there is just no way to run from it and ofcourse the destruction of the girl's life proceeds.... :o :o :o :o :o :o :o


LESSON: Mata kama kan ku sosai!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-X


May Allah be with us all; girls and boys, ladies and men...and guide us the right way.....Insha Allah Amin.... :D :D :D



"




 ?
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Anonymous on September 12, 2002, 09:10:38 PM
Fulanicious

Sure there are things like blood tests, although a genetic fingerprinting using DNA would be more accurate (but the State cannot afford it). However, that is not the issue. Amina admitted to having committed the act. The FACT that she gave birth to baby means SOMEONE also is responsible. This is enough to establish that SOMETHING had indeed taken place. However, for her to be punished, 4 WITNESSES must have seen the act DURING COMMISSION, not AFTER! So she is NOT GUILTY at all. For her to be punished, her guilt must be established DE JEURE, not DE FACTO.

Abdalla






Quote

Salamu alaikum wa rahmatullah Tala wa barkatu
-------------------------------------------------------
 ?Alot has been going round about Amina Lawal...

There is a lot to that issue..but what puzzles me most is that whyyyyyy in the world would there be any ?argument ?or doubt ?if the man is the father ?of Amina's child. ???? ??? ??? !!!!!!!!!!!!!
HELLOOOOOO we are in like what?? ? the year 2002.........right..... and there is a little something we call a BLOOD TEST!!!

The child is there, the mother is there, and an accused man is there and let the blood tests begin...
 ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

And personally, i dont think this story ?is as big as Safiya's case...

but i have a feeling a guilty man is being laid off so easily....but only Allah Subhana wa ta'ala knows....




Oh, and here is a lesson for yall ?girls out there....."See, a man can get away with it and but the girl is being left behind pregnant ?and ?there is just no way to run from it and ofcourse the destruction of the girl's life proceeds.... :o :o :o :o :o :o :o


LESSON: Mata kama kan ku sosai!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-X


May Allah be with us all; girls and boys, ladies and men...and guide us the right way.....Insha Allah Amin.... :D :D :D



"




 ?

Title: Re: puzzling - link to clear things up!
Post by: Anonymous on September 12, 2002, 09:19:51 PM
Oops, forgot to include this link

http://www.nigerdeltacongress.com/articles/amina_lawal.htm

It is a brilliant article by Sunusi Lamido about Amina Lawan (not Lawal) who defended Safiya when she fell in the same spot last year.

Abdalla


Quote
Fulanicious

Sure there are things like blood tests, although a genetic fingerprinting using DNA would be more accurate (but the State cannot afford it). However, that is not the issue. Amina admitted to having committed the act. The FACT that she gave birth to baby means SOMEONE also is responsible. This is enough to establish that SOMETHING had indeed taken place. However, for her to be punished, 4 WITNESSES must have seen the act DURING COMMISSION, not AFTER! So she is NOT GUILTY at all. For her to be punished, her guilt must be established DE JEURE, not DE FACTO.

Abdalla







Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Anonymous on September 12, 2002, 11:13:19 PM
Assalamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullah wa barakatuh,
There is so much imporatance attached to this case, when this is a straight devine law and it is not subject to any logic. Most of all, no religion, be it Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc and no righteous society condons adultry or fornication. Is the Western press that is making so much fuss about this case saying that it has lost all moral values, and that it now condons adulery and fornication? Are there not more important issues to write about in Nigeria, like such social ills as illeteracy, unemployment, poverty, epidemics and many others?
The subject matter here is that Amina is an illeterate, and therefore does not even understand the Islamic Shari'ah law. She confessed herself that she committed adultery, and therefore the judges had no option than to interprete the law. She had a choice to deny, and therefore the burden of proof will be turned on the prosecution if she knew the law, and that way, nobody will be able to prove that she committed the act because there will be no evidence, and the pregnancy will now go to her former husband since she had it less than two years after the divorce.
The man denied sleeping with her and therefore turned the burden of proof to the prosecution, and the prosecution could prove no case against him, and the judges had no option but to discharge and acquit him.
I sincerely advise all those lawyers and human rights activists to therefore go and be more educated about Islamic law, and stop making unnecessary fuss about non issues. They can still advise the lady to deny her confession at the appeal court, and therefore turn the burden of proof to the prosecution, only that the case here will be that Amina will have to be ready to swear to the Holy Qur'an (like the accused man did), that she did not commit adultery.
This is a much better option for her dischsrge and acquital rather than all the unnecessary noise in the press.
Assalamu alaikum,
Ali Magashi.
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: admin on September 13, 2002, 03:08:16 AM
Salamu alaikum;

Thanks to everyone for contributing to this topic. Below is the response received from Sanusi Lamido regarding this topic:

Quote
Many thanks,
interesting discussion,particularly the comment by Ali Magashi.
It is interesting that only those who wish to convict a suspect are
"knowledgeable" about Islamic Law but not those who obey the prophetic
injunction to seek relief for Muslims wherever they may be from the hadd.

I have made the argument again and again and I stand to be corrected.
In Maliki law a child born to a divorcee within 5 years of divorce belongs
to the husband unless he denies it. It stands to reason that a child
presumed to be a legitimate offspring of marriage cannot at the same time be
the evidence for fornication.
There is no record that Amina's husband rejected the child.
There is no source in shariah that gives anyone the right to interrogate a
woman in Amina's situation about the source of her pregnancy-innocence is
presumed. So her "confession" on this ultra vires interrogation is
meaningless and to no legal effect.
The only other way she could be convicted is through 4 eye witnesses who do
not exist.
The state had no case from the beginning, the judge had no right to
entertain it and those who brought the charge should be tried for slander.
This is Islamic law. It is not enough to denounce application of rationality
to law and indeed not proper because it suggests that thge law is contrary
to logic and common intelliegence wal iyadhu billah.
In any case we never learn. The issue of safiya was so flogged with abuses
and insults and in the end the Appeal court ruled that the judge was in
error on many counts of law and procedure.
In Amina's case, the surprise to me is that the appeal judge said she had no
right to withdraw her confession. Every student of elementary islamic law
knows that in matters of hadd-except the hadd of qadhf or slander- a Muslim
is free to withdraw confession at any time including during punishment. In
the case of zina the text of the mukhtasar is explicit- "zina can be
established by a confession once, except if withdrawn in any manner or if
the confessor runs away even if during hadd." this is the text of the
mukhtasar.
At the end of the day those who judge their piety by the number of hands
amputated and women stoned will do what they like.
Al that we can do is say it and say it again that this is not Allah's law.
I challenge anyone to give me a source-no matter how weak, for asking a
divorcee who delivers within gestation the source of her pregnancy. Over to
those who are experts in Islamic law!On the contrary when a man came to Umar
to report an unmarried woman who was pregnant 'Umar chased him away- and
this is in the Musannaf of Abdul Razzaq.
After the sokoto jihad it was 100 years before the white man came. In that
century only one woman was stoned for adultery and she had reported herself
repeatedly to Sutan Bello. He asked her to go and deliver, then go and wean
etc exactly as the prophet did with the ghamidite.
For us however we started shariah two years ago and have already sentenced 5
people to rajm and amputated God knows how many arms. Is this evidence of
Shariah or lack of it?

I apologise if I offend any sensibilities but I have a little time on my
hands so I went into detail.
Sanusi


Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Anonymous on September 13, 2002, 11:39:38 AM
Assalamu Alaykum

I have been following the debates about Amina Lawal's adultery case. It is very interesting to note that a lot of people have just metamorphosed into experts on Islamic Law and Jurispudence. It is noteworthy however that the interest so generated has helped in educating me and encouraging me to learn more about Shari'a. I dont know whether it is profer but I'll like to use this forum to extend my thanks to Sunusi L. Sunusi for his articles which have been extremely educating and provoking.

In respect to Amina Lawal I believe Sunusi is right, according to the Malikiyya any child born by a divorsee belongs to her former husband if she's not been divorced for up to 5 years unless it is proven that she is an adulterer, and if the Sharia we are practicing is based on the Maliki School of thought Amina Lawan can only be stonned if there are four witnesses that are qualified to give evidence in shariah that have seen her commits the act and have seen penetration.

Let's hope the upper court will look at this side of the argument as from every tradition of the Holy Prophet it is not desirable to condemn without absolute proof or confession.

And to digress a little to Safiya's Roman citizenship, I think if there is anybody that deserves award in respect of that case it's the Upper Shari'a Court Judges in Sokoto who prved to the world that Shari'ah Law is just and fair and not harsh and primitive as the west claims or is claiming.

May Allah guide us guard us from the devil and forgive our sins.

Wassalam Alaikum
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Fulanizzle on September 13, 2002, 01:34:43 PM
Salamu alaikum.....

....the western media should stay out of these cases...trying to mortify the sharia reputation practiced in the Northern Nigeria...i am soooo sick and tired of seeing ?Amina's case being soooo stressed on CNN !!!!!!!!!!!! :o :o :o :o :o

plus the Italian citizenship ?that Safiya got is just irrational...strongly agreeing with what someone mentioned here earlier. :o :o :o

And yeah, it is also deplorable to think that in Safiya's case ?lutta lawyers from the western world tried to interfere.... its simply unacceptable !!!

May Allah continue to guide us and be with us...AMIN
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Anonymous on September 13, 2002, 05:41:37 PM
Assalamu Alaikum,

One of the five major reasons of Shari?a in Islamic societies in entirety is to protect people's genealogy Nasab. It tries to make sure that a child has been proven to be legitimately sired, for if not, the child will continue to live a life with his personality permanently indicted. That is why Shari?a dwells a lot on issues regarding divorce and pregnancy. The waiting time, months or period, iddah within which it will be clearly certain if a woman is not pregnant after divorce have been stipulated in the Qur?an. (Surat al- Dalaq please) Shari?a has even gone to the extent of telling us not to send divorced women away until they exhausted this period iddah after which it will be absolutely certain(even in modern medicine and whatever) as to whether she is pregnant or not (Surat al Dalaq). In the case of Amina Lawal or Lawan she has already exhausted that period iddah after which no any story about pregnancy came up.  Later, after two concrete years, she came with a child, it is said that under Maliki law, Sharia cannot convict her because the child might belong to her former husband. Okay, agreed, but she went a head to confess to their village head and to multitude of people that the child is a product of an illegitimate relationship. The village head couldn?t do anything but to report her to authorities since the genealogy for the child was at the risk of being maligned. Here these words: they did not report her accusing her of committing adultery but because the circumstance was a puzzle to them, and they felt only a court of law can solve it. There at the court this lady confessed again that she has committed the abominable act. The judge tried to save her by creating excuses for her in a polite way(according to a friend whom I seconded to follow the case for me through the Hausa Magazine programme Jakar Mogori by FRCN Kaduna) but she iterated and reiterated that the child is not legitimately sired. Now Sanusi Lamido Sanusi, if you were the judge what would you have done?

Remember, genealogy is one of the main things that Shari?a came to protect and Islam is built on the philosophy of life that demands that we trust people and take them by their words until they prove otherwise, not cynicism of the western world, which demands that we don?t trust them until they prove trustworthy. That was why the other man, I mean the accomplice in Amina?s case has to be acquitted and she, be convicted.

And added to this, what does Shari?a suggests in a situation where we have children of questionable ancestry? Does it demand that we ask the bearers of such children to explain or we should just leave them which will lead the entire community to be gossiping, denying them this and that, just because they have speculative ancestry?  

Finally, I think and strongly believe that our intellectual giants today are in the position faith-wise and intellect ?wise to sit down and come-up with a very comprehensive Fiqh . The ability to do ijtihaad is not and has never been an absolute prerogative of Malik, Abu Hanifah, Ibn Taimiyyah or any other highly revered person. At the risk of being immodest I will say, I think the books read by people like Sanusi could be larger in volume than those read by Malik and other revered scholars our much ?glorified? past. And on the level of piety I believe it is only Allah can judge.    :o Ma?assalam

Ibraheem A. Waziri
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: revo34 on September 14, 2002, 02:25:28 AM
Asalam Alaikun,
    I believe this will also teach ??? alot of boys and girls that they need to abide with the Law  stated by Almight ALLAH cos that is the bests way of life that ALLAH as stated for us.
Now Imagine ::) if not for now adays that nudity is not checked by most community . If it were to be, She is already a shame to her Home , community and state. cos no man in a well islam cultured society will feel free to marry from that community cos .(I know u understand what I mean :-[).

One more thing that trouble me is the Roman's invitation for her to be an honourary citizen.

May ALLAH help us all cos this world of now adays is that of the (end of days).


And here I am just starting with this generation
 :o :-[ :'(

ALLAHU HAFIS

Masalam
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Anonymous on September 15, 2002, 01:01:45 AM
Assalam,

I believed every one will agree with me that we are just embrassing ourselves over this Sharia thing, slowly but surely the enemies of Islam are being vindicated that ours is a political Sharia and would " soon fizzle away" if Amina Lawal is eventually let off the hook, the whole thing has certainly become a big joke. Evidently it shows that we have not done our homework well before implemeting the Sharia system in our states, it shows that we do not have judges qualified in Islamic jurisprudence to man the courts and these would expose us to ridicule.
On the Italian citizenship to Safiya, it is just theatretics, for pray,tell, in what way would Italian honorary citizenship benefit Safiya? the only disturbing thing about the event is the role played by our own Aishatu Ismail, the minister for women affairs in in going out of her way to bundle and send  Safiya to Italy to receive an award aimed at riduculing Muslims and Islam, yet her father is one of the respected Ulamas in Kano ( Albasa bata yi halin ruwa ba) :(
May Allah continue to protect us from the evil machinations of the enemies of Islam.
Many salaams
Magaji Galadima
galamag@yahoo.com
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Fulanizzle on September 16, 2002, 01:11:09 AM
Salamu alaikum :D

   lol, just to think of what was previously mentioned ""On the Italian citizenship to Safiya, it is just theatretics, for pray, tell, in what way would Italian honorary citizenship benefit Safiya?""

 lol, its true...the Italian citizenship won't  benefit her for half a second... for one, I don?t think she completed her secondary school...she hardly speaks good English...not to talk of Italian...the place will just be an queer and different atmosphere to her.....she will be extremely alienated.....i just know that no responsible Nigerian that knows how to speak Hausa will even go close to her in Italy...man...she will wish she was back in the village  doing "tuka tuwo"    ;D  

  oh well.....the whole point here is that she will put herself in a worse situation for accepting the Italian citizenship....for one she  dishonored the  Hausa/ Fulani/Muslim /Nigerians.... :-/ >:( :-X :-[ :'(

  just a thought, people...didn?t mean to go too far...if i did, please pardon me.......

May Allah be with us................AMIN
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Anonymous on September 16, 2002, 01:34:03 AM
um....hullo!! ;D abdalla!!!......hey!...the court can go to a simple secondary school and perform the blood test... so...me i no undastand whish one be..."cant afford it".... :-/
Title: excuzeee moi
Post by: Anonymous on September 16, 2002, 01:36:03 AM
sorry... i neva greet ya'll wit' asalam alaykum...

AS SALAM ALAYKUM :D
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Anonymous on September 21, 2002, 01:04:12 AM
Assalamu Alaikum

I believe all this debate shows the remarkable misunderstanding of what the crux of Amina lawal's case is.
It is true that the Mother and child are accounted for but, in the strict definition of the Law, it can be argued that Amina Lawal had a Child without having sex.That is an argument a prosecutor can introduce to this case although its most unlikely in Nigeria. Having established the fact that Ms Lawal did have sex with someone, and that someone has caterorically disavowed anything (in a Sharia court of Law) to do with Ms Lawal's case, the entire matter depends on what Ms Lawal says.
Here is where Ms Lawal faltered. She CONFESSED to having extramarital sex -evidence of which is the Child- with someone. Because that someone has denied responsibility for any wrong doing, Ms Lawal has to face the consequences of incriminating herself.
One can attempt prooving that the  alleged person DID commit the crime using blood sample. Then a clash of jurisdiction will be encountered because a constitutionally recognized court has acquitted the accused of the same offense and thus, he cannot be retried.
One can also argue, provided no Ijtihad was conduted on the admissibility of genetic evidences in court, no blood test are required.
It is an unfortunate natural dysfunction that women do bear babies and burden of proof in their case is impossible to deny in a case like this.
My suggestion will be to really discourage people from reporting cases that potentially involve Hadd punishments (like Zina.....) UNTILL a concerted effort is made to make the system balanced in the way male and females are judge. I am not in any way suggesting changing Allah's Law, but just make them compatible with the shrewed tactic of munafikai like the man who impregnated Amina Lawal.
I sincerely wish her the best.
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Anonymous on September 21, 2002, 01:06:47 AM
Assalamu Alaikum

I believe all this debate shows the remarkable misunderstanding of what the crux of Amina lawal's case is.
It is true that the Mother and child are accounted for but, in the strict definition of the Law, it can be argued that Amina Lawal had a Child without having sex.That is an argument a prosecutor can introduce to this case although its most unlikely in Nigeria. Having established the fact that Ms Lawal did have sex with someone, and that someone has caterorically disavowed anything (in a Sharia court of Law) to do with Ms Lawal's case, the entire matter depends on what Ms Lawal says.
Here is where Ms Lawal faltered. She CONFESSED to having extramarital sex -evidence of which is the Child- with someone. Because that someone has denied responsibility for any wrong doing, Ms Lawal has to face the consequences of incriminating herself.
One can attempt prooving that the  alleged person DID commit the crime using blood sample. Then a clash of jurisdiction will be encountered because a constitutionally recognized court has acquitted the accused of the same offense and thus, he cannot be retried.
One can also argue, provided no Ijtihad was conduted on the admissibility of genetic evidences in court, no blood test are required.
It is an unfortunate natural dysfunction that women do bear babies and burden of proof in their case is impossible to deny in a case like this.
My suggestion will be to really discourage people from reporting cases that potentially involve Hadd punishments (like Zina.....) UNTILL a concerted effort is made to make the system balanced in the way male and females are judge. I am not in any way suggesting changing Allah's Law, but just make them compatible with the shrewed tactic of munafikai like the man who impregnated Amina Lawal.
I sincerely wish her the best.
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Anonymous on September 21, 2002, 01:56:11 PM
first.....people dont really know whut happened or whut is happenin'  :-/

was she divorced???? THEN got pregnant????

whut if it was her LEGITIMATE HUSBAND's BABY????

was she given ENOUGH time to defend herself????
cuz i heard she claimed it was her husbands child...at first... then later said anoda thing!

why did the OTHER MAN confess to seeing her, then later deny????

its kinda obvious he sins around too... why isnt he brought to justice...???

WHUTS THE PROBLEMOOOO!!! with scientific research on this issue???????....


@ mr magaji... i agree wit' u..about embarrassin' ourselves... but if Shariah was implemented gradually... it WILL WORK!! personally... death penalties should start in maybe about 5 yrs (suggestion) or maybe later.....
we need to RE-educate people and take things step by step...

lol@ revo "And here I am just starting with this generation" hahaha... i know... we dey for trouble... but Insha Allah...we'll make it...
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: admin on September 25, 2002, 05:40:58 AM
Salamu alaikum;
 
Thanks to everyone for contributing to this topic. With the hopeful permission of Ibraheem A. Waziri and the request of Sanusi Lamido, I have posted a side dialog that took place off the Forum, between Ibraheem A. Waziri and Sanusi Lamido
regarding this topic:

Quote
Salam alaikum

Thank you very much for letting me have a copy of your brilliant comments
and I do hope you will be able to post my response to the sites on which
your original comment was posted. I regret that I am just responding I have
been away from my PC and only returned to work today.
I will be brief because of time constraint.
First there are two issues which I want to separate: The issue of law (or
fiqh) and the isue of its objectives (or maqasid). I will discuss each on
its own but I agree with you that both are essential.

I will begin with fiqh.

Indeed the question of pregnancy after iddah is one discussed by jurists. As
a matter of fact the ruling that a woman who is divorced or whose husband
dies and then she delivers a child in less than the maximum gestation of
pregnancy-that the child is to the dead husband or, in the case of the
divorcee, the one who divorced her unless he goes through the oath of Li'an
and repudiates the child- this ruling is found in the chapter on iddah in
the Mukhtasar. Khaleel there mentions that there is a disagreement over
whether this term is 4 years or 5 years in Maliki law, a position also
reported by Abu Zahra in his al-Ahwal al-shakhsiyyah.

You raise a related question: If a woman has had her iddah and seen her
period should she have any rights to be presumed innocent of zina if she  
has a child after that before or after remarrying? In the school of Abu
Hanifa if a woman acknowledges that she has completed her iddah and she then
has a child more than 6 months after the date on which she completed the
iddah before remarrying the child does not automatically revert to the
husband unless he acknowledges it and the pregnancy is by implication
circumstantial evidence of zina.If she has the child more than 6 months
after contracting the new marriage it belongs to the new husband.

In the Maliki school the ruling is different. If you read the commentary of
'Ulaysh on the Mukhtasar- the Minahul Jaleel- (this is all in the chapter on
iddah)- he says: "Her case is not adversely affected even if she had
acknowledged that her iddah is complete. This is because menstruation is a
pointer to the absence of pregnancy only in a majority of cases but some
pregnant women do menstruate." (ie menstruation is not conclusive proof of
the absence of pregnancy.)
This issue is only relevant if the child is delivered more than 6 months
after completion of iddah. If it comes in less than six months after that
even if she is married the marriage is to be annulled and the child given to
her old husband because it is concluded that she contracted a marriage while
pregnant and therefore technically in iddah.In other words if a woman says
she has completed her iddah and then gives birth less than 6 months after
the date she claims, the fact of delivery is proof that she was lying. The
minimum gestation, remember, is 6 months so she must have been pregnant on
the date she claims she completed her iddah.
If it comes more than 6 months after the date then in Hanafi law it is not
the previous husband's but in Maliki law it is, so long as she remains
unmarried or has remarried but less than 6 months to the date of delivery.
If she delivers the child more than 6 months after the new marriage it is
automatically that of the new husband in all schools of law unless he
repudiates it by Li'an.

This is the law.

A second related question is this: If she has a child more than 4 or 5 years
after her last sexual contact with her last husband should the child be
automatically considered illegitimate and should she face the hadd? Again
the point is dicussed in the Mukhtasar and its commentaries.
Khaleel reports a fatwa from Malik in the Mudawwanah cocerning if a divorcee
or widow marries after 4 years and eight months of her last contact with her
husband and then gives birth in the 5th month after marriage. Malik says
that the child is not for her last husband (because she had it 5 years and
one month after her last sexual contact with him ie beyond maximum
gestation). It also does not belong to the new one (because 5 months is less
than minimum gestation). So Malik ruled that it belongs to neither and she
should be stoned. Khaleel then adds an interesting word-wastushkilat-
meaning that maliki jurists have found this fatwa of Malik's problematic.

Commentators like Ulaysh and Dirdir( in sharhul kabir) say that scholars
like Lakhmi and Qasibi object to this ruling because the maximum term was
not fixed by Allah and His prophet and therefore its excession can not be
the basis for declaring a child illegitimate much less for stoning a Muslim
to death. Besides, according to them there is a dispute over this term even
from Malik himself and he is reported to have on occasion fixed it at 7
years.

On this point Dasuki says in his Hashiya: "Malik is reported to have said
the maximum term is 4, and 5, and 6 and 7 years at diffrent times. This
conflict is a shubha on the basis of which the hadd should be set aside."

When you read all of the points on this issue you are left with one
conclusion. Although in Maliki law pregnancy is proof of fornication it is
impossible to convict a widow or divorcee based on the fact of pregnancy.
She is presumed innocent once the child is born within maximum gestation
even if she acknowledges that she completed her iddah with periods. Where it
exceeds the term she may be convicted but the punishment is set aside based
on shubha resulting to from different fatwas on the maximum the term itself
as in the Hashiya of Dasuki. Please cross check all of these points at your
convenience.

So conviction based onpregnancy becomes theoretical and she can only be
convicted,in reality, based on 4 witnesses or voluntary confession, as in
the other schools. But her confession can be withdrawn at anytime in matters
of hadd other than slander as is well known so Amina has by the mere fact of
appeal withdrawn her confession leaving the pregnancy which is no proof
since it is within the term.


You raise a major question: Should children of doubtful legitimacy be
allowed to roam around and be subjects of gossip among the ummah? The answer
is simple:Gossip in Islam is haram and the Qur'an is explicit on this (wa la
yaghtab ba'dhukum ba'dhan). In Muslim law there is no child of doubtful
legitimacy. A child whose mother is known either has a legal father or does
not. If the father is unknown (as in a child found abandoned) he is presumed
to have a legitimate father who is unknown. A child is a bastard only where
his mother is convicted for zina resulting in the child's conception- as in
a previously unmarried girl- the so-called "single mothers" of our
generation. Once the law has attributed a child to a father he has a nasab
and any "gossip" or "allegation" is qadhf or slander on his mother. The only
reason any Muslim would engage in such gossip is ignorance of the law and we
cannot kill women as a solution to the ignorance of society. The solution is
education on the law which we are trying to achieve to the best of our
ability. The Zamfara governor recently referred to Safiya who went to Italy
as an adulteress. She has been acquitted by a court of the charge and if she
knew her rights she could sue him for slander and have him given 80 lashes
unless he has witnesses to the act.

You say Amina had legal advice but she went ahead and convicted herself. Did
she really? Did this advice include the implications of her utterance? Was
Amina aware that if she said she committed adultery before the alkali he
would have no option but sentence her to death by stoning, and that if she
held her peace her former husband had responsibility for her child unless he
took the oath of Li'an? If she knew this why is she protesting the sentence.
I put it to you she did not receive proper guidance before she made her
ignorant statements and the qadi had the duty to consider her ignorance
which made her make the staements she did. Besides the upper court rejected
her withdrawal of confession against all principles of law.

Finally, and I apologise for dragging this you raise the question of
maqasid. Unfortunately in life you sometimes have conflicting objectives.
You must remember that Malik and other jurists had wives and daughters and
neighbours and therefore were quite familiar with the normal terms of
pregnancy. Indeed most Ithna-athari jurists and the Zahiri school set a
maximum term of 9 months. Ibn al-Hakam said 12 lunar months and he was
supported in this by Ibn Rushd.A'isha, Abu Hanifa and a report from Ahmad
put it at 2 years. Why did Maliki jurists drag it to 4, 5, 6, 7 and even in
the extreme 12 years even though their contemporaries had shorter terms? To
understand this you must understand that objects(Maqasid) can be in
conflict.

It is true that the shariah protects nasab. But remember 2 things: A bastard
has no rights and claims on its father in Muslim law. No one is obliged to
feed him or clothe him or train him or get him married and he has absolutely
no agnates or other family on the father's side. And all this for an offence
committed not by him but by his mother and her consort. is it not desirable
to save this innocent child from the adverse consequences of a crime of
which he is innocent- or should he suffer for the crime of his mother? Add
to that that the mother will be stoned to death on conviction. So he has no
father and father's family, his mother is killed and he lives with the
stigma of beimng labelled a bastard.
Second, pregnancy in Maliki law is a much stronger proof of zina than in
other schools. For this reason the Maliki school has to set conditions that
are very severe to save women from being killed based on pregnancy. Again
this is to save Muslim life from being taken in vain- and as you know the
protection of life-nafs- is ranked higher in maqasid than the protection of
nasab. In the science of Usul the maqasid are ranked and where the masalih
(good things) can not be attained together a lesser good is sacrificed.
Where the mafasid (bad things) can not all be avoided simultaneously the
worst is avoided and the lesser good tolerated. We sacrifice mukammilat for
tahsiniyyat, sacrifice tahsiniyyat for hajiyyat and sacrifice hajiyyat for
dharuriyyat. Both human life (nafs) and progeny (nasab) are, as you know,
dharuriyyat (necessities). But the ranking of this class is the din
(religion) then nafs(life) then 'aql ( mind) then nasab or nasl (progeny)
then mal (property) and some add 'irdh (dignity). Where there is even a
remote possibility that life may be unjustly taken in defence of nasab the
decision has to be in favour of protecting life, even if nasab be adversely
affected. Besides a man who brings up a Muslim child like his own has many
rewards from Allah for doing this and the child may grow up to be of service
to Islam.It is better for her to escape and for the child to have a father
who is not his biological father than to risk killing her in error and the
other consequences.

This may seem strange of course but it is not. We are all married and have
children but can we swear that we are the biological fathers of our kids? We
presume the innocence of our wives and the shariah compels us to- but surely
there are many bastards born in their father's houses but the fathers are
none the wiser. It is the same principle. The child is a legal child-we are
all legal children-hopefully but not always-the biological offspring of our
fathers.

The other side of the coin of course is that a young girl who is unmarried
is more likely to pay the price of pregnancy in Maliki law- but this is only
caning and the child-stigma notwithstanding- at least has a mother.I
believe, and Allah knows best, that the Maliki school is most uncompromising
in the case of a previously unmarried pregnant girl because what is at risk
when she is flogged is not her life but her dignity and this is ranked lower
on the scale than nasab. The law that protects nasab is willing to risk
sacrificing the reputation of a girl on the altar of protecting a higher
dharura. And Allah knows best.

I hope I have responded sufficiently to your comment. If next time I do not
go into detail please do not take offence I am a bit tight for time.

Salam alaikum wa rahmatullah

Lamido


>From: "Ibraheem Waziri" <iawaziri@uaemail.com>
>To: <lamidos@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re:Amina Lawal
>Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:10:48 -0700
>
>  Mallam,
>
>Yaya Kwana biyu, yaya iyali dafatan kowa da kowa na lafiya. Na tadda
>bayaninka game da Amina a Kano-Online forum. Wadannan sune tamnbayoyina
>game da al'amarin. Ina fatan Malam zai duba ya amsa mani.
>
>Naka, Dalibinka
>Ibraheem
>
>Assalamu Alaikum,
>
>
>One of the five major reasons of Shari'a in Islamic societies in
>entirety is to protect people's genealogy Nasab. It tries to make sure
>that a child has been proven to be legitimately sired, for if not, the
>child will continue to live a life with his personality permanently
>indicted. That is why Shari'a dwells a lot on issues regarding divorce
>and pregnancy. The waiting time, months or period, iddah within which it
>will be clearly certain if a woman is not pregnant after divorce have
>been stipulated in the Qur'an. (Surat al- Dalaq please) Shari'a has even
>gone to the extent of telling us not to send divorced women away until
>they exhausted this period iddah after which it will be absolutely
>certain(even in modern medicine and whatever) as to whether she is
>pregnant or not (Surat al Dalaq). In the case of Amina Lawal or Lawan
>she has already exhausted that period iddah after which no any story
>about pregnancy came up.  Later, after two concrete years, she came with
>a child, it is said that under Maliki law, Sharia cannot convict her
>because the child might belong to her former husband. Okay, agreed, but
>she went a head to confess to their village head and to multitude of
>people that the child is a product of an illegitimate relationship. The
>village head couldn't do anything but to report her to authorities since
>the genealogy for the child was at the risk of being maligned. Here
>these words: they did not report her accusing her of committing adultery
>but because the circumstance was a puzzle to them, and they felt only a
>court of law could solve it. There at the court, this lady confessed
>again that she has committed the abominable act. The judge tried to save
>her by creating excuses for her in a polite way(according to a friend
>whom I seconded to follow the case for me through the Hausa Magazine
>programme Jakar Mogori by FRCN Kaduna) but she iterated and reiterated
>that the child was not legitimately sired. Now Sanusi Lamido Sanusi, if
>you were the judge what would you have done?
>
>
>Remember, genealogy is one of the main things that Shari'a came to
>protect and Islam is built on the philosophy of life that demands that
>we trust people and take them by their words until they prove otherwise.
>Not cynicism of the western world, which demands that we don't trust
>them until they prove trustworthy. That was why the other man, I mean
>the accomplice in Amina's case has to be acquitted and she, be
>convicted.
>
>
>And added to this, what does Shari'a suggest in a situation where we
>have children of questionable ancestry? Does it demand that we ask the
>bearers of such children to explain or we should just leave them which
>will lead the entire community to be gossiping, denying them this and
>that, just because they have speculative ancestry?
>
>
>Finally, I think and strongly believe that our intellectual giants today
>are in the position faith-wise and intellect -wise to sit down and
>come-up with a very comprehensive Fiqh. The ability to do ijtihaad is
>not and has never been an absolute prerogative of Malik, Abu Hanifah,
>Ibn Taimiyyah or any other highly revered person. At the risk of being
>immodest I will say, I think the books read by people like Sanusi could
>be larger in volume than those read by Malik and other revered scholars
>of our much "glorified" past. And on the level of piety I believe it is
>only Allah can judge.  Sai anjimanku Kanawa kaidai kaga bayi da kokari.
>
>
>Ma'assalam
>
>
>Ibraheem A. Waziri
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Blaqueen on September 28, 2002, 05:50:41 PM
amina should be given a chance to speak out nooooooow!!!!..

i wish i could have face-2-face convo wit' her....
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Ihsan on September 29, 2002, 07:41:12 PM
Assalaam Alaikum,

Really, an san dai ba yadda za'a yi mace tayi ciki without a partner in the act. :-X. So why all this????? If she says she has done it and then kuma tace ba haka ba...the court should set her free according to the "real" Islamic Shari'ah.

Amma dai mata ma suke saida kansu a wannan zamani namu...cause mata flaunt their beauty (body, face) to non-mahram...what do we expect from mazan???  I know na bar kan hanyar muhawarar...but still, this is something that I think leads to all this. :-X . Idan da zamu kama kanmu, mu tsare mutuncinmu, wallah ba namijin da zai yi tunanin tun karar mu...yayi dai shi daya a zuciyarsa. Wallahu A'3lam.

Allah ya shirya mu, ya shirya mana wannan zamani namu. Ameen.

Fee Amanillah.
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Dantata_Girl on September 30, 2002, 01:10:02 PM
...exactly!!! both parties. Amma ai wani sa'in macen ke leading  :-/
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: shira on September 30, 2002, 03:43:55 PM
ahlan wa sahlan,
The italian citezenship given to safiya is if no importance to her,and i'am sure safiya will not leave her hometown to go and settle in faraway italy where thre's no tuwon gero or fresh fura da nono,kai not even that,can she abandoned her children and her parents to go to another country and live there forever?what about her other relatives?the sirane environment she was used to,the issue here is the enemies of shari'a in collaboration with their western countereparts use this opportunity to ridicule muslim and islam,and what is so annoying is  the role played by Aisha Isma'il,let her know that she is not going to remain in the govt,forever lallai kan albasa bata yi halin ruwa ba,
m.t.shira
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Anonymous on September 30, 2002, 11:23:07 PM
Mallam Sanusi Lamido Sanusi: Kanoism or Kanoic tendencies?

Yes, true to God you responded to my comments, but please I will like you to further look into the affair for I believe there is still a shady area.  Let me put it this way: It is not my wish to see people dying for no just reason. I believe also that it has never been Allah?s wish. But people have to be punished when they start becoming nuisance to the society. But before a nuisance is discovered as agreed in the four schools of thoughts, the nuisance must confess or be caught in the act. The theory of SUSPECT in Islam does not exist, Islam also does not believe in interrogation. This is where Shari?a proves its superiority over any other legal system; it takes people by their own words where there is no witness. It respects one?s individuality more than any other legal system (one can even confess and later withdraw his confessions). It gives right to privacy more than any other legal system that is why it makes laws accommodating exceptions rather than the rules; taking the specific circumstance in preference of general circumstance as we have seen in the case of women who see their period while being pregnant.
  
  
Now let?s apply all aspects of the law unto Amina?s case according to the realities on ground and see where the judge faulted in the litigation. This lady confessed during court sessions that the ?did?, did happen. Get me clear Mallam I DID NOT SAY SHE HAD LEGAL ADVICE, as in employing the services of legal expert by her or by the state for her. Who would give her leakage about the implications of her utterances. NO.  But I said ?the judge tried saving her by creating excuses for her, if you like, giving her a subtle hint to withdraw her statements as you reported in your Adulteress Diary that Ali and some other esteemed companions of the holy prophet did.? But instead this lady did not; she iterated and reiterated that the child belongs to a man entirely different from her former husband. After then he saw no reason in his wisdom not to recommend the right and most appropriate punishment be registered on her. Remember in law, ignorance is not an excuse.

Secondly, the issue of Maqsud I raised was to understand why the people who took Amina to court should be caned as you impliedly suggested earlier. Because they took her case to court not because they felt and believed that she is an adulteress, but because they believe the child?s family tree is at the risk of being smeared.

Again the issue of children of doubtful legitimacy I raised has something to do with a situation where ladies who are known to have no husband but yet they are carrying children. If we go and ask them we will be accused and be convicted on the charges of slander, added to the fact that Islam is opposed to the idea of interrogation and if we allow them, we will leave the issue of their Nasab (genealogy) hanging in the eyes of the society and Shari?a will fail in one of its duties again, that of protecting our Aql(mind or conscience). And the children will have ?doubtful ancestry? and Shari?a will inevitably fail again in its duty to protect their Nasab. Remember Sharia is carried out in the world of reality not that of imagination full of abstraction. What is the FIQH here?!

Malam, as you have rightly pointed out, one of the maqasid of Shari?a is to protect our conscience (Aql) for us; meaning that it has to protect for us our sense of right and wrong and I think this is what brought out the ruling that a judgement passed by a Shari?a court cannot be reversed (Bashir Aliyu Umar has explained this in his rejoinder to your Adulteress Diary). Because reversing it as it has been done in the case of Safiya and as it is about to be done in the case of Amina, will spank our ?dear? conscience. It is even what makes it easier for others to see Shari?a and Muslims as objects of ridicule. Here as opposed to your last argument, I think our conscience (Aql) and our (genealogy) Nasab are more important than our lives. Because it is certainly for our clearer conscience that nuisance among us should be punished and that punishment demands that sometimes some have to cease from existing.

And again, where I find the puzzle most is in the Shari?a legal system in itself. Because, while jurists assert that ignorance is not an excuse, you will find in the Qur?an where God instructs the prophet of Islam to accept the pledge of women coming into Islam on several conditions of which one is that they should not commit adultery. Now, as we can all perceive in Amina?s case, she does not know this and yet she is a Muslim. So shall the laws be applied on her or the state which is the custodian of the Islamic faith has to educate her first????????!!!!!. Please what is the true FIQH?!

Yes, this and many things need to be addressed properly. Know that you (Mallam Sanusi) and other intellectual giants of our time, the custodians of knowledge and wisdom, the inheritors of the seats of the holy prophet and his noble companions are about profaning our spiritual heritage if you do not come up with a more logical and comprehensive FIQH that will rhyme with the index and logic of our time, and you should revere God while you are doing this.

Finally, while I appreciate the effort you invested in responding to my comments I also feel a bit scratchy about your concluding statement, you said: ?I  hope I have responded sufficiently to your comment. If next time I do not   go into detail please do not take offence I am a bit tight for time.? I used to think before that it is your responsibility, you the learned ones, the able ones to patiently listen and adequately respond to our Fatwa, as Allah instructs people of knowledge to always do. Remember what transpired between Abdullahi Ibn Ummu Makhtoom and the prophet of Islam that led to the prophet being rebuked by God. Unless if Mallam is tending to unleash his ?Kanoic? tendency on me (a common practice of Kanawa against Zagezagi). Hide away the knowledge from my sight until when I am ?convicted?, then spring to my defence with his sword-like pen claiming to save ?Mutumin Zaria? his master whom he would that day a bow in kanoism  that he is his lewd and licentious slave(laughter).

Most grateful I remain.

I love you all.
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Blaqueen on October 01, 2002, 12:06:15 AM
da fa?.. ofcourse u luv us all.... ;)
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Anonymous on October 02, 2002, 11:02:24 PM
A' a na mene???! this PINE dame is she nigger-girl or a '"negress'". lalle we will "'outport"' her if she imports crazy joke again into a very serious discourse. Haka kawai. which kain version of Kanoism does she practice?
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Blaqueen on October 03, 2002, 12:54:09 AM
make una go ask 'am now... :-/
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Anonymous on October 03, 2002, 06:19:10 PM
a'a no be do it PINE.. or you are booted ne??!!!
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Anonymous on October 03, 2002, 08:06:08 PM
a'a no be you do it PINE.. or you are booted ne ;D??!!!
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Fulanizzle on October 04, 2002, 09:24:28 AM
SALAM ALAIKUM........!!!!!!
I WAS JUST GONE 4 SOME DAYZ...N WHAT DO I SEE?????????...PEOPLE DISSIN FYNE DYME????  I WILL BE STRAIGHT WIT YALL....FYNE DYME MIGHT TURN THINGS INTO JOKES...BUT  SHE ALWAYS MAKES PERCEFTLY SENSIBLE POINTS 8) AND THATS THE UNIQUE  ASPECT OF HER POSTINGS!!!!!!!

LET A SISTA BREATHE N XPRESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(IHSAN U GOT MAH BACK RIGHT  DONT CHA???!!!! ) ;) ;D :D

PEACE OUT!!!!!!  
SALAM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MAY ALLAH BE WITH US
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Blaqueen on October 07, 2002, 12:25:08 AM
so i finally read whut people posted...(yeah i know it took a while).... and this woman can actually be set free?

if she claims the pregnancy is her husbands.... she's free... cuz she is within two yrs of the divorce...

she can withdraw her confessin anytime.... even durin the punishment.....

so is she AWARE of these rights given to her by shariah???
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Anonymous on October 11, 2002, 01:17:55 PM
Salam alaikum

I just read Ibrahim Waziri's posting on the above on kanoonline. I am
attaching my latest write-up(an advance draft of which I had given Waziri) (http://www.gamji.com/sanusi30.htm)  
which is up on gamji.com and addresses a number of issues regarding hudood
sentences in the north. The article contains detailed analysis of the
Mukhtasar and its commentaries and annotates arguments I have repeatedly
made over a number of years. The conclusions are not exactly new but the
referencing would help brothers and sisters who wish to cross check
arguments and test their validity.

I will only add here in brief what I wrote to Waziri. I believe he makes a
crucial error in legal theory by overestimating the gravity of nasab-to the
extent that life may be sacrificed even if there is a shadow of doubt to
protect nasab(genealogy).

Life in Islam is sacred. Allah says in many verses in the Qur'an, for
example Al-Isra'|33 "And do not take any human being's life which Allah has
willed to be sacred except in the pursuit of justice" and this refers to
executing a legal judgement, killing in a just war or legitimate self
defence.

In each case, and more so in arriving at judgement, it is to be ensured that
where the punishment for a crime is death, that crime has been established
beyond every shadow of doubt-and this is true of homicide and zina and
apostasy etc. For zina the standards of proof, bayyinah, are even higher
than for homicide, since four eye witnesses are required as opposed to two.
Although nasab is counted as one of the dharuriyyat (necessities) by some by
jurists it is ranked lower than life and life can never be sacrificed for
nasab where a shubha exists.

But beyond that, in the science of usul, we learn that not every jurist
considers nasan (genealogy) as one of the necessities. Ibn Ashoor for
instance makes a distinction between nasl(procreation) and nasab
(genealogy). The first is necessary, the second is not.

procreation is necessary to preserve the human race which is why the prophet
Lut condemned his homosexual people for "cutting off the path(to
procreation)". Nasab gives a child a father, agnate relatives, rights to
feeding and clothing and a right to inheritance. All of these can be given
by his mother and her relations. So nasab is  needed but not a necessity and
it is considered by this jurist as merely something that makes nasl complete
(ie one of the mukammilat al-nasl). I say this to show that even on the
question of nasab being one of the dharuriyyat of shariah there is a
dispute- which is not the case with life.

To suggest that nasab has so much weight that we should risk taking an
innocent life to preserve it is reflective of a superficial reading of usul
al-fiqh and the intricate debates on maqasid.

For a fuller discussion of these issues I have referred Ibrahim to Ibn
Ashoor's Maqasid al-Shari'ah and Dr Al-Yoobi's Maqasi al-Shari'ah
al-Islamiyyah.

It seems to me, wallahu a'lam, that Maliki jurists have used this logic in
giving divorcees and widows this leeway. However for those women who are not
muhsanat, the punishment is 100 lashes so life is not at risk. Here the
jurists are willing to risk error on the side of caution because of the
overall importance of nasab which outweighs the passing pain of lashes. I
plan to give more thought to this and produce something as part of a
critical reading of Coulson.

I hope this comment and the article will serve the purpose of clarifying the
issue. I hope you will place both at the disposal of your members.

Sanusi
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Blaqueen on October 11, 2002, 02:22:00 PM
"The Sokoto Shari’ah Court of Appeal upheld Safiya Hussein’s right to withdraw her confession even though government lawyers had tried to dispute that right. In acquitting her, however, the court did not address the substantive issue of proof based on pregnancy, relying instead on the more expedient technical point that the alleged offence was committed before the state passed the new Shari’ah criminal code. In the case of Amina Lawal, the Upper Shari’ah Court in Funtua, which recently heard the appeal, ruled that she could not withdraw her confession, and concurred with the ruling that pregnancy was proof of zina given by the lower Shari’ah Court. "
~~The Hudood Punishments in the Northern Nigeria: A Muslim Criticism By Sanusi Lamido Sanusi [LAGOS] OCTOBER 1, 2002



thats not fair... they should allow her to withdraw it naaaaaaaaaa.....
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Blaqueen on October 11, 2002, 02:27:37 PM
mr. lamido... good points u stated...
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Anonymous on October 15, 2002, 10:01:22 PM
Assalamu Alaikum,

That is true Mallam; mine could be only a ?superficial reading of Usul al-fiqh? but being me your student I prefer you call me a toddler in the science of usul or at least a beginner in the art of intellectual judo as Ahmed Deedat would put it. Added to that I also think you should re-read my posting again. I did not suggest that nasab alone ?has so much weight that we should risk taking an innocent life to preserve it? as you insinuated, but this is what I said: ?Here as opposed to your last argument, I think our Aql (conscience or mind) and our Nasab (genealogy) are more important than our lives. Because it is certainly for our clearer conscience that nuisance among us should be punished and that punishment demands that sometimes some have to cease from existing.? I think in ordinary rule of logic the AND that appears between Aql(conscience) and Nasab(genealogy) in my statement unequivocally suggests that my conclusion has import only when Aql is merged with Nasab. I pray Mallam will be fair to me next time.
 

I have carefully and critically gone through your paper and I must confess that the issue as you addressed enjoyed the necessary attention that any dexterous jurist would give. Mukhtasar as you know for the past centuries is considered among our scholars to be the eventual authority in jurisprudential debates. Its mastery has been for long a prerequisite to our study of the science of jurisprudence. Particularly in the area I come from in Zaria city and some parts of northern Nigeria; people since time immemorial do commit Mukhtasar into their memory as they do commit Qur?an into their memory.  I believe it will be unfair on our part if we attribute ignorance of the complex debates of Malik jurists about the issue of Huddood, pregnancy and divorce to the judges who passed the verdict on the ?alleged? adulteresses.  

The real problem is not in the judges, or their understanding of the law; it is not also in the maximum gestation period neither is it that of being ?trigger happy? or ?finger happy? (in the case of stoning) but that of their confessions (I mean the alleged adulteresses) and their persistence on their confessions after they have lodged their appeal; do we know that even after their appeals these ladies confessed again in the court proceedings that their children were a product of illegitimate relationships? In the case of Safiya Hussaini; it was after the case has attracted the intervention of the international community and some human rights (?)   (obviously anti Shari?a western) organisations that she was acquitted. In this we can see that not only nasab is at stake but the religion (deen), our conscience (Aql) and our dignity (irdh) or sovereignty as a Muslim nation/culture.  

Mallam knows for certain that in everything there is adab(rule). My question here is what is the stand of shari?a in regard to an already passed judgement? What is appeal in Islam? What does the Prophet of Islam mean when he said ?a judge who pass a judgment and err has one ounce of reward and the one who pass it and get it correctly has two ounces of rewards?, Bukhari and Muslim.

Again, I can remember a scholar telling me that circumstances in usul al-fiqh determine the type of judgement that should be passed on a culprit; it also sometimes defines the dharurriyats, how true Mallam?

Mallam you suggested that I should read Ibn Ashoor's Maqasid al-Shari'ah and Dr Al-Yoobi's Maqasi al-Shari'ah al-Islamiyyah. Fine and beautiful, but I think it is about time we start considering what the majority of the jurists I mean jamhoor agreed upon; the ?consensus opinion?. Because if we choose to always cite opinions we will have myriads of them, there is always an alternative opinion, as a result of that we will NEVER, EVER act for a minute.

Yes, Mallam I truly need another paper that will dwell on these maqasid, circumstance and dharuriyyat; that will also elaborately speak more about the phrase ?ignorance is not an excuse?. While you continue to write Mallam, we on our part will not get tired of asking questions. Because only then we will be able to graduate from having ?superficial? knowledge of usul al-fiqh to being masters in the science of jurisprudence; of course a future inheritors and solvers of jurisprudential questions.

Most appreciative I forever remain.

Waziri
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Anonymous on October 17, 2002, 12:53:12 PM
Wa alaikum assalam,
I will try and go straight to the points.

I am not sure anyone I have read has made a connection between forbidding
zina and the protection of aql. Also I have never read in any work of usul
that aql or nasl (or aql AND nasl) are more important than nafs. This does
not mean no one has written so. If you have come across something please let
me have your reference. If however it is just a thought from you I respect
your right to think it but would appreciate your articulating the arguments
that upturn the ranking given in the conventional books of usul.

Second point is this. I have myself gone through the traditional zaure
lessons and I pray for the opportunity to return to it. It has its uses but
it also has its drawbacks. Prime among these is a focus on cramming and
literal translation rather than thinking, reflection and dialectical
reasoning. The whole argument on nasab in my paper is on the chapter on
Iddah-ie in family law. The issue of pregnancy and zina is in criminal law.
I believe I made it clear in "Amina Lawal: Sex,Pregnancy and Muslim Law"
that the problem is not so much not knowing the Mukhtasar, but not making
the connection between the two laws in defining what is meant by pregnancy
as proof of zina.

Thirdly the issue of confession I have dealt with in the paper. I will only
add this, which I avoided in our earlier discussion since you had your own
report of the trial. From the court records of the initial trial it would
seem many of the issues surrounding Amina's pregnancy, the question of the
man, his acceptance and denial, her naming him etc took place in the village
in the presence of the traditional ruler, family members and hisbah, but NOT
in court.

The trial itself seems to have been very brief. Amina was asked if she was
divorced and never remarried, and if she was pregnant and had a child after
divorve. To both she replied yes. then the alkali said "Amina kin san wannan
zina ne?" (Do u know this is zina) and she said "yes". This is not a
confession. First the alkali led her into incriminating herself due to
ignorance. Second zina was not defined in the court (or even, surprisingly)
in the Katsina state laws so how can we be sure they were referring to the
same thing. In any event the sunnah is thatshe should come of her own
volition to confess (which is itself discouraged). In the madh hab she can
be asked the source of her pregnancy if it exceeds gestation. Otherwise her
views or those of her husband are not required as the matter is settled by
law.

Third Ibn Ashoor is not by any means outside the mainstream of usuliyyun.
The question of nasab, as you may well know, has never been a point of
consensus in terminology-as opposed to deen, aql, nafs and mal. Some
scholars count nasab among the dharuriyyat. Others use nasl. Still others
use budh' which refers either to sexual gratification (as a necessity0 or
the "planting of seed inside the womb". This matter is as old as the works
of shatibi. Ghazali, Amidi, Juwayni and other classical writers in
Usul.There is no "consensus of opinion" in thsi particular matter. In any
case, Ibn Ashoor has the right to question that consensus. You have done so
by asserting that in your view aql and nasl are more important than nafs and
I have respected that right as long as you go beyond expressing a thought
into presenting a reasoned argument.

Yes, the circumsatnces should determine the judgement. What are the
circumstances of the northern Nigerian Muslim village woman-in terms of
education and knowledge of the deen, material well being and ability to
resist temptation of small money, burden of children and the life of a
divorcee,general vulnerability to the wily deceit of men,general moral
standards and rectitude of the men and women, rich and poor, privileged and
deprived in her community? Would you say the circumstances call for  a
compassionate and understanding judgement accompanied by admonition,
education and assistance or the maximum penalty?

Finally, I think the argument that we should kill a Muslim to prove to the
western world that we are standing by our religion and culture is very
faulty. A Muslim(or non-Muslim) life can only betaken as instructed by Allah
and His Messenger. It matters not what the western world says. Do you not
see in the paper how Al-Lakhmi, Al-Qabisi and Abdul Haqq differ from their
Imam when they think obeying him will lead to taking a life without an
injunction from Allah and His Messenger?

I think with this oI will put the matter to rest having said all I believe
needs to be said. The reader will make up his mind which arguments to
accept. Most important we should all research the law if we truly believe in
shari'ah.There can be no shari'ah without Islam and as we have seen with
Safiya's trip to Rome these errors merely expose our beautiful and just
religion to ridicule. Is it not amazing that Rome, from where christians and
Jews fled to Muslim kingdoms in search of sanctuary from a wicked church
that crucified ppl and burnt them on the stake is now a haven for a Muslim
woman scared by her own inquisitors.

You speak of environment? We are living in a pluralistic society. How many
Muslims have strong enough faith to be stoned to death or to watch their
beloved ones so stoned especially where there are questions of due process.
the weak of afith and in knowledge will detest their own religion and run
into nthe arms of christianity. Mark my words.

To be forewarned is to be forearmed. We know how Islam won converts by being
the face of justice and mercy. Are we that face in Northern Nigeria today?

Sanusi
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Blaqueen on October 17, 2002, 11:52:23 PM
"Finally, I think the argument that we should kill a Muslim to prove to the  
western world that we are standing by our religion and culture is very  
faulty. A Muslim(or non-Muslim) life can only betaken as instructed by Allah  
and His Messenger."


thats some deep ish ryght there....... so she never even confessed..........  :-[ thats sad......



ok..... whut about those two in minna.....? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? whuts up wit them? ? ? ?
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Blaqueen on October 17, 2002, 11:54:43 PM
abi na niger state...
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Anonymous on October 18, 2002, 11:35:42 PM
Assalamu Alakum,

Mallam don’t be tired pls. I am not responding to a challenge or feeling intellectually challenged in anyway. I am only engrossed in a desire to know. But you are making it to sound as if I am the one that is bringing something new by coming up with a “fiqh” in a very unconventional way (smiles). I think my reference point about the connection between the crime of zina and protection of Aql(Conscience) or nasl AND aql as you suggested will not be anything other than you or your responses to my comment earlier in this forum. You touched on the maqasid; I mean the “whys” of the Shari”a. there you said Aql is one of them. It was then I started thinking that reversing the judgment could have the fatal effect of smearing our conscience. I asked this question in virtually all of my postings saying:

“Malam, as you have rightly pointed out, one of the maqasid of Shari’’a is to protect our conscience (Aql) for us; meaning that it has to protect for us our sense of right and wrong and I think this is what brought out the ruling that a judgement passed by a Shari’’a court cannot be reversed (Bashir Aliyu Umar has explained this in his rejoinder to your Adulteress Diary). Because reversing it as it has been done in the case of Safiya and as it is about to be done in the case of Amina, will spank our “dear” conscience. It is even what makes it easier for others to see Shari”a and Muslims as objects of ridicule.”  

And again I once said:

“Mallam knows for certain that in everything there is adab(rule). My question here is what is the stand of shari”a in regard to an already passed judgement? What is appeal in Islam? What does the Prophet of Islam mean when he said “a judge who pass a judgment and err has one ounce of reward and the one who pass it and get it correctly has two ounces of rewards”, Bukhari and Muslim.”

But Mallam you did not address the question in any way. I just don’t know Mallam, probably I am confused or foolish.

Yes, Mallam you have your own version of the trial; at a point when the villagers thought they should give her cover as urged by the holy prophet for Muslims to hide the evil doings of fellow Muslims. This woman felt they wanted to cheat her by not forcing her accomplice to slaughter ram and provide other things for the welfare of her newborn baby. She went to the police and told them about the situation. This means she was the one who first took her to the law. When the judge asked her as to whether she knows that what she did was zina or not she answered in the affirmative. But it is true that the court have never at a time defined what zina is. And Amina really confessed out of ignorance. That was why I asked you in my earlier posting twice to please explain to us the claim of jurists about the phrase “ignorance is not an excuse”.

Certainly Mallam the circumstance put so many things at stake between our dignity (irdh) as muslim nation, our (aql) as muslims, the deen in itself as it is being exposed to ridicule on one side and the life of our beloved sister on the other side.

Yes Mallam we need so many things as you said:

“Yes, the circumsatnces should determine the judgement. What are the
circumstances of the northern Nigerian Muslim village woman-in terms of
education and knowledge of the deen, material well being and ability to
resist temptation of small money, burden of children and the life of a
divorcee, general vulnerability to the wily deceit of men, general moral  
standards and rectitude of the men and women, rich and poor, privileged and  
deprived in her community? Would you say the circumstances call for a
compassionate and understanding judgement accompanied by admonition,
education and assistance or the maximum penalty?”

I agree with you completely. I think the hodood punishment should have been postponed, but how about this thing of an already passed judgment? These jurists what do they mean?

Finally, I think I must here re-mention again: these things are still a bunch of puzzles for me and by God I do not have the intellectual wherewithal to solve them. I am sick. I need help.

Thank you and God bless

Waziri
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Anonymous on October 19, 2002, 03:02:46 AM
Well first of all I do not understand all the other books you guys are talking about. are you guys saying that if Naf's and alq that a woman should be killed because some stupid people who are despart for attention think she's committed Zinah ??? Can you please enlighted me.

Thanks
- Gimbiya
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: admin on October 19, 2002, 07:22:11 AM
Gimbiya, thank you for responding to this topic, but as a policy, we do not agree or appreciate the use of this kind and tone of the language you just use here. We do not think its a good thing to say what you said in the way you said it. If a topic being discussed is beyond your scope of understanding and comprehension, it is best you do not respond to the topic. This is a discussion forum for us to discuss things in a mature and respectable manner. We do not agree with nor will we tolerate this kind of language.

Quote
Well first of all I do not understand all the other books you guys are talking about. are you guys saying that if Naf's and alq that a woman should be killed because some stupid people who are despart for attention think she's committed Zinah ?Can you please enlighted me.
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Dan-Sokoto on October 19, 2002, 10:29:32 AM
GIMBIYA from the records, you just registered to become a member of this forum recently. Please and please, the issues being discussed are fundamental and serious, and if you cannot participate responsibly it is advisable you don't respond. Your last comment is most un-serious, ignorant and abusive and i am of the opinion, such should not be entertained in this forum.

Administrator! I am so piqued by this Gimbiya of a person that, i am compelled to recommend a radical solution that could possibly solve the problems of these imposters that intercede to make a mockery of serious discussions. My proposal is under a new topic called TRUE AND AUTHENTIC IDENTITY OF KANOONLINE MEMBERS.

Dan-Sokoto
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Rose on October 19, 2002, 07:06:59 PM
OOhh sister :-/@Gimbiya.
Say Good or you shut-up :-X Thats what our prophet said.
I don't know may be you are not a muslim, But Still Respect yourself by respecting others Believe etc.
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Blaqueen on October 19, 2002, 07:52:04 PM
ok... so movin' on......

...... i would really appreciate it.... if ya'll used short, sweet, and simple sentences....

ya'll are confusin' meeh.....

i know waziri is sayin'.... she should be released... cuz she wants to withdraw her confession....but they wont allow her... and in Islam thats wrong...

and lamido is sayin'.... he dunno her rights...

and i still never grab whut "aql" is..... u all keep goin back and forth...
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Blaqueen on October 23, 2002, 04:40:04 PM
ok ok ok ......... since u refuse to ansa meeh.. i now know whut "aql" is... intelligence (for all those who neva grab 'am too)...

so.....  ::)

QUESTION:
is there a difference between a chronic adulterer and some one who might have made a "mistake".. as in one who juss happened to fall in that trap...??

i mean.. look at amina... she dont look like those hard-core chronic adulterers.... maybe the man tricked her... hey..kila bata da wayo... she was prolly divorced and depressed...
and yeah.. maybe she doenst have enuff Islamic background... after all.. she did kinda turn her self in right? (i wonder whut she was expecting  ::) ......)

ps...remain for u to not ansa my question...
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: fatee on October 24, 2002, 09:47:12 AM
Assalamu alaikum,
I beleive there isn't any diff btw a chronic adulterer and someone who made a mistake,the first time is mostly a mistake and 4rom there it continous.
And i don't think there is any muslimi in this world who don't know what zina is and it's "had"
  Details of the " How to conduct the law" needs good  islamic background , but not mere knowledge of "The defination of Zina" .
  she isn't a teenager balle ace an mata wayo, and if she actully did it , then withdrawing that confession is not 4 her own benefit.
" In ta guji azaban duniya bazata guji na lahira ba.

ma'assalam
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Blaqueen on October 24, 2002, 11:31:05 AM
u have a point... but still.. luts of them need to be educated some more....

sha....Allah ya kiyaye
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Anonymous on October 27, 2002, 03:51:11 AM
let all out there  understand all the huh cry out there by the western counries on shari'ah, they always talk on stoning, rights of women,amputation like they are the only punishments under shariah. they forgot that those punishments are only a fraction of shariah. i believe they are against shariah becos it is the only solution to the the problems facing the world.  lets take a look at the countries practicing the full shariah legal system u will see that they have less social problems to grapple with which the western countries  continue to face even with the best legal system theyclaim to have.
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Guduma on March 04, 2004, 05:16:06 PM
Surely the unbelievers only believe in the "world". To wine, fornicate, commit adultery and cherish innocent girls going about naked. Sharia is only for the righteous, the decent and humble humans. May Allah SWT in HIS infinite mercy guide and protect us, amen.
Title: Re: puzzling
Post by: Anonymous on March 14, 2004, 07:28:45 PM
I have gone through the postings in this thread and I have found this to have been a very interesting discussion, I liked the openness and desire of some of the contributors to probe the issue deeply rather than be emotional.

On the west its media and presentation of the issue, the world as it is today is using the legislative system to promote alien life styles to man and all this in the name of humanism or human rights (I am not saying I am completely against human rights, but such human rights that promote abotion, marriage between gays or lesbians etc I do have a problem with).  Men are marrying men, women marrying women, abotion legalised etc basic morality and religious dictates are being thrown out the window.  But in all this there is also a need for introspection by religious leaders on their role in allowing for this move down to a decedant society.  

Coming to the issue being discussed, some people appear to have been protesting the exposure I say it is good.  However the episode raises some issues which need attention or else alot of injustice may be going on in the name of God.  Some of the questions these sharia cases raise (and in particular in the states that adopt it in nigeria) are as follows

1  Is it proper or wise to have a state religion?

2  Are the states implementing sharia really ready for it? (that is to say do they have competent people to implement such laws without injustice? remember this is probably the coner stone of the fear of non muslims)

3  Being from Allah, why do the provisions in sharia have such wide varying interpretation? does that not affect the justice eventually meted out?

4  Surely paramount in the application of sharia is justice therefore why should cost be an excuse or reason for geting to the truth? (as indicated by one of the writters)

5  Also it is my assumption that truth is what sharia is out to establish and mete ou punishment on the basis of this truth, so if a woman gets pregnant, and this pregnancy is not miraculos or devine, then surely somebody is responsible for it confession or not should the responsible person not be found out and both parties purnished? Or is the other party not also guilty of adultry?  Can we look at a scenario where only one party has been punished and honestly and truthfully say justice has been meted out?

It is questions like these that make people apprehensive not the provisions of the law itself, for even the sharia laws can be found in non muslim countries although they may be in different variations