Author Topic: Opponents of Death Penalty should read this!!!  (Read 33983 times)

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Offline alhaji_aminu

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Opponents of Death Penalty should read this!!!
« on: April 12, 2005, 04:16:22 PM »
Salam

Proceed through this link http://www.dailytrust.com/WeeklyDream/Cover%20II.htm to access the article.

I could not contain myself after reading this horrific and disturbing story. That there are men (beasts is a better description) who will do such a thing leaves me in no doubt that their punishment should be worse than death. They should not be dignified with an Islamic burial because they, in my own estimation, are not Human or Muslims.

I am outraged!

Allah ya isa

Offline Hafsy_Lady

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Opponents of Death Penalty should read this!!!
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2005, 04:59:25 PM »
May Allah rest her soul in peace Ameen. I heard the incident a day after it happened. Its so touching, disgusting and beyound reasonable sound mind exceptations of reasonable sound mind capacitating people except for the two accused.

They committed an act of felony and in the process committed homicide and they were aiding and abetting the truth by secretly disposing of the victims body. Probably, they will be charged with two offences because their acts set off a chain of events. And for Shua'bu to state that he has no intention will not constitute a defence because he has already committed an act prohibited by shariah law and they have confessed to it. And for both of them to use intoxication by self-induced (drugs) is no reasonable ground for defence. Plus being in possession of a dangerous and illegal drug. Wannan yana daya daga cikin dalilan dayasa aka haramta sha kwayoyi to avoid sound mind people to commit an act they will regret. Su kansu wainnan samari, am sure suna danasani, amman sharin shaidan!

A'a malam myadudu, the anger, pain and sorrow is going through everyone elses mind but obviously duk hukuncin da za'ayi musu za'ayi yadda shariah tace and it is in my view to say that it will be justifiable, amman saying that they should not be buried according to islamic right is not relevant duk da nasan zafin rai yasa ka fadi hakan. Domin ko anyi haka it will not wipe off the crime committed or the end result of the crime itself. Idan an daure musu hukunci rai da rai which I presume they might, they should be disposed as of rights accrued in shariah law. Sannan komai a barwa ubangiji Allah mai girma domin shi kadai zai iya zartar da hukunci shi wanda ya kamaci abun da sukayi akan wa'innan bayi nashi dai dai wa daida. As the deaceased mother said, tabarwa Allah komai. Aiko idan tace haka ta gama komai. To deprive them of their burial rights da ace anbar mutum a hannun Allah, wannene zai zama mishi bala'i?

Allah ya sawake, this should serve as a hinderance for mothers with children. Don Allah a dinga kulawa da yaya mata saboda da mutane marasa hankali kamar su. I have heard so many similar issues of mothers sending off their daugthers unaccompanied to deliver food to male cousin or close relations or yanamta masu aiki su kaiwa maigadi abinci and things like this turning out at the end. A dinga kulawa kuma maza masu irin wannan halin both young and old, rich and poor, married or unmarried da su dinga kulawa, kuma su san if they carry out such an act scott-free in the hereafter there is nothing like freedom to commit a prohibited act.

Allah ya sawake ya kuma kare.
What you see is what you get[/b]

Offline Hafsy_Lady

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Re: Opponents of Death Penalty should read this!!!
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2005, 05:10:40 PM »
Quote from: "myadudu"
because they, in my own estimation, are not Human or Muslims.
I am outraged!


au, kai yau kafara jin zantuka irin wannan na maza musulmai marasa dabi'a da koyin addinin musulunci? Where have you been all these years?

Allah dai ya shirya irinsu
What you see is what you get[/b]

Offline mallamt

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Opponents of Death Penalty should read this!!!
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2005, 04:29:59 PM »
very sad story to think that such could happen in nigeria and in the north!! well this goes to show us that it is not the type of legal system we put in place that stops crime so maybe we should start looking at the causes of crime rather than the effect of crime alone.

Offline bakangizo

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Opponents of Death Penalty should read this!!!
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2005, 11:54:08 AM »
The anti-death penalty campaign has always been the baby of western propaganda.

Offline usman11

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Opponents of Death Penalty should read this!!!
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2005, 08:46:56 PM »
I am having problems accessing the link provided by myadudu, so I do not know the story.  It would appear however that some Muslim or muslims committed some very gory and shocking acts that is drawing condemnation.

In any case,  the issue of the death penalty has resurfaced here.  I am not totally against the death penalty. I am however particular about the type of crime that warrants the imposition of the death penalty.  In Nigeria, the death penalty as most other things became an issue of religious contention, and this creates problems. I believe if the death penalty is to be applied, it should be reserved for hardened criminals who intentionally and brutally murder innocent people without conscience.  These kinds of people who in many cases may be repeat offenders without remorse and deemed by the authority to pose clear danger to society and convicted already on grave crimes against other fellow citizens, would be appropriate candidates for the death penalty. In other words, the punishment has to fit the crime. It would make no sense to take a bugler or a pick pocket who during the comission of a felony caused no harm to the victim, and impose  the death penalty on such a petty offender. Such a penalty would not fit the crime.

What I have noticed in Nigeria where death penalty issue is discussed, is the desire by Muslims to extend that law to people found guilty of adultery.  From my observation, here is where many Muslims advocate the death penalty more than at any other time.  The death penalty does not suit every crime.  The reason why different penalties for violations exist is because the law recognizes that crimes differ in gravity and impact.

In America, the courts uphold the death penalty in many states. In many  cases, the people on death row are those convicted by the courts after exhaustive trials, ample evidence , and proof  that the suspect committed very grave atrocity against another, usually a case of brutal killing, serial homicide , etc.

Many Western European countries reject the death penalty because for one they find it cruel and unnncessary to take the life of a convict because doing so does not bring back the victim.  So they would rather commit the suspect to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

Coming back to Nigeria and the death penalty saga, the constitution should be respected and allowed to take its course. People cannot keep trying to amend the Constitution or go around it because it does not suite their religious, tribal, or ethnic beliefs. Doing so is a gross disregard of the law and a mockery of the legal framework that guides the country.

Yes, the death penalty should be upheld by the courts if the constitition allows it, but the constitution also lays down the rules on when to impose it.  We cannot sidetrack the constitution and begin witch hunting adulterers for the fun of executing people thinking we are observing our religious rights because that would be lunacy and high hypocrisy.  When people violate personal trust...(because a relationship between two people is a personal trust union) it is between the person in violation, the disappointed partner, and also Allah. For society to jump in and want to carry action is absurd and hypocritical because we know quite well that many people in support of such penalty commit worse atrocities than the infidelity of an adulterer.

Offline _Waziri_

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Opponents of Death Penalty should read this!!!
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2005, 12:36:35 PM »
Mallamt wrote:

Quote
well this goes to show us that it is not the type of legal system we put in place that stops crime so maybe we should start looking at the causes of crime rather than the effect of crime alone.


Mallamt,

You see my problem with you is whenever I try correcting you you jump to the claim that I hate you. Sincerely speaking if you should forsake that thought pattern and look at what I will say objectively you will then see how the above comment by you may remain irrellevant to muslim minds.

If we say the type of legal system doesn't matter at all then we can easily conclude that nobody should worry when Muslims say they want Shari'a. We can even say since legal system doesn't matter then all should adopt Shari'a or even abandon any legal system and live a lawless society.

For Usman11,

You have a very nice submission there but I provide below some links that can give you the full backgroud of the item of this discourse here. Have a wonderful reading session as I wait to here from you:

http://www.hausafulani.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=154

http://www.hausafulani.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=125

Thank you once again

Waziri

Offline SAAHIB 92

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Opponents of Death Penalty should read this!!!
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2005, 01:47:34 PM »
Quote from: "usman11"
I am having problems accessing the link provided by myadudu, so I do not know the story.  It would appear however that some Muslim or muslims committed some very gory and shocking acts that is drawing condemnation.

In any case,  the issue of the death penalty has resurfaced here.  I am not totally against the death penalty. I am however particular about the type of crime that warrants the imposition of the death penalty.  In Nigeria, the death penalty as most other things became an issue of religious contention, and this creates problems. I believe if the death penalty is to be applied, it should be reserved for hardened criminals who intentionally and brutally murder innocent people without conscience.  These kinds of people who in many cases may be repeat offenders without remorse and deemed by the authority to pose clear danger to society and convicted already on grave crimes against other fellow citizens, would be appropriate candidates for the death penalty. In other words, the punishment has to fit the crime. It would make no sense to take a bugler or a pick pocket who during the comission of a felony caused no harm to the victim, and impose  the death penalty on such a petty offender. Such a penalty would not fit the crime.

What I have noticed in Nigeria where death penalty issue is discussed, is the desire by Muslims to extend that law to people found guilty of adultery.  From my observation, here is where many Muslims advocate the death penalty more than at any other time.  The death penalty does not suit every crime.  The reason why different penalties for violations exist is because the law recognizes that crimes differ in gravity and impact.

In America, the courts uphold the death penalty in many states. In many  cases, the people on death row are those convicted by the courts after exhaustive trials, ample evidence , and proof  that the suspect committed very grave atrocity against another, usually a case of brutal killing, serial homicide , etc.

Many Western European countries reject the death penalty because for one they find it cruel and unnncessary to take the life of a convict because doing so does not bring back the victim.  So they would rather commit the suspect to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

Coming back to Nigeria and the death penalty saga, the constitution should be respected and allowed to take its course. People cannot keep trying to amend the Constitution or go around it because it does not suite their religious, tribal, or ethnic beliefs. Doing so is a gross disregard of the law and a mockery of the legal framework that guides the country.

Yes, the death penalty should be upheld by the courts if the constitition allows it, but the constitution also lays down the rules on when to impose it.  We cannot sidetrack the constitution and begin witch hunting adulterers for the fun of executing people thinking we are observing our religious rights because that would be lunacy and high hypocrisy.  When people violate personal trust...(because a relationship between two people is a personal trust union) it is between the person in violation, the disappointed partner, and also Allah. For society to jump in and want to carry action is absurd and hypocritical because we know quite well that many people in support of such penalty commit worse atrocities than the infidelity of an adulterer.


Different ppl always had a different ideas.....i believed there's a punishment prescribed both in the so called nigeria's constitution and in our decent penal code system.why the delay ?ppl 'd believed there's law,but when the law has failed you what could be the next line of action?remeber !!! this henious crime was committed against harmless,innocent child.going by the example you placed abt america,do you think those beast will be allows to go scotfree even in america?i doubt!!! but here in nigeria particularly KANO,i feel those ppl should be excuted mercilessly.WHY because they d' open the flood which creates another BAD EPISODE at KURNAR ASABE recently.allah ya kiyaye
Radina billahi Rabban,
 Wa bil Islami Dinan,
 Wa bi Muhammadin Nabiyya!"

  ABBAS A YAKASAI

Offline usman11

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Opponents of Death Penalty should read this!!!
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2005, 07:52:11 PM »
Waziri, thanks for the links. I went back and read most of the postings on those links, and it was an exhausting experience. So please forgive me if I do not write a comprehensive commentary this at this point. For some people, this is a touchy issue because sentiments run deep here. Some of the forumites seem to echo my position on capital punishment, while others express undying support for the death penalty.

I seem to view things with reason however. Some offenses may warrant the death penalty while others clearly do not. On those links you provided you can see that even amongst Muslims, there are clear disagreement about interpretation on the application of the death penalty. From this, it shows that we need to be extremely careful in our interpretation of what we believe to be God's injunction. We cannot claim to know God/Allah's mind or intent. Some things in religious books are not completely clear, and so we cannot make assumptions because those assumptions could be erroneous and dangerous.

I am not an authority on religious matters, Islam or Christinity, but I do read, study and research widely.  One contributors in your link named EMTL justified his support for the death penalty for adulterers by quoting a portion of the Christian Bible's Old testament law of Moses. I had to go and check that out. The verse he quoted does indeed say, the adulterer, or one who commits adultery, man or woman, shall be put to death.

When carefully examined, what the speaker (God) never said was WHO should carry out that sentence. This is very important. It does say, the adulterer shall be put to death, but never explicitly gives anyone the authority to carry out that sentence if at all it was sentence.  Now, a lay person will reason saying, "well, who else will do it, if not the community people"? That is wrong because in that same Bible, I noticed several instance where God showed his capability to deal with sinners by himself when he chose, without help from humans.

The case of Sodom and Gomorrha comes to mind right away. The case of Noah's ark and the flood also comes to mind. The cases of Jewish captivity and suffering for disobedience also comes to mind. All these were examples from that same Bible of God's judgement on a defaulting people, and He needed no human input or assistance in carrying out those judgement.

If one goes back to the story of creation as told in the religious books, it is said that God instructed Adam to eat of any plant or fruit bearing tree from the garden of Eden except one. The command was that the day Adam and his wife ate of the tree of Knbowledge, they wil die. The outcome was that Adam and Eve disobeyed that directive and ate of that tree. Did they die right away? No! Does that make God a liar? No! They lived for several hundred years, then ultimately died of old age. So God's word was fulfilled ultimately, though it took several hundred years. And this is a clear indication that we should be careful how we view God's words. He did say to Adam," the day you eat of the tree of knowledge, you will surely die".  


Who knows, if they had obeyed, they may still be alive today and the World's make up may have been different.

My point is however, when God says the adulterer shall die, or put to death, based on the examples above of how He does his things, that statement could mean many things. It could mean, that being unfaithful and having irresponsible sexual affairs may result in people contracting AIDS as we see today and die. And this is happening. It could also mean that, the person that commits adultery would be caught by the spouse of the other adulterer and killed out of rage. The bottom line is that, if people heed the warnings and commandments, they would be clear of trouble, and we should understand, the laws were for guidance purposes mainly.

So we need to be careful as people and apply some reason to our actions.

Offline usman11

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Opponents of Death Penalty should read this!!!
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2005, 08:08:41 PM »
Sahiib, I think you should re-read my posting carefully before responding.
I never said I was against the death penalty for murderers, vicious killers, serial killers, etc. In those cases, the death penalty should be considered given the heinous nature and viciousness of the crime. What I am against, is death penalty being applied in any other instance.

When some muslim go on rampage during the so called religious riots, and kill innocent people by slicing people's throats with knives, do you think they should be tried and executed? I think so. That is a vicious and senseless crime.

Secondly, I do not understand your reference to America here. In America as I said, the death penalty is upheld by the courts. Serious criminals are condemned and executed. So what is your point here? Again, you failed to carefully read and comprehend what I wrote.

In the case of the law "failing you" in Nigeria..(I am assuming that reference is to Nigeria), please note, the law has not failed.  The laws are not being enforced, that is the problem. We have a constitution, and we have laws, but when certain people posture themselves above the law, what do you think happens thereafter? Chaos!

You cannot break laws, twist them to suit you, and then it ultimately fails to work, you complain about its failure and then want to abandon it and adopt another set of laws. That is the confusion that has pervaded Nigeria.

Offline _Waziri_

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Opponents of Death Penalty should read this!!!
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2005, 11:55:24 AM »
Usman11,

Interesting comment  you have there. But as you said you always enjoy researching so I will beseech you to like try to read everything in those links and finally give me your final accessment of the issue. It is then we can build up on the discussion. As you can see you have only responded to one claim by EMTL up there.

Offline Dave_McEwan_Hill

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Death Penalty
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2005, 01:20:47 AM »
Perhaps the most interesting instance in the Bible as regards the death penalty was when Jesus came upon some people determined to stone a poor woman to death for adultery he said
"Let the one among you without sin throw the first stone" and they all put their stones down and walked away.
I can see the justification for the death penalty after vicious murders but the desire by some men to stone poor women to death for adultery (while the men walk free) is barbarity and murder pretending to be justice.
In any crowd of cowardly men scrambling to stone a woman to death how many of them would have committed adultery themselves?
I would use the death penalty on any man who stoned a woman to death.
maigemu

Offline alhaji_aminu

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Opponents of Death Penalty should read this!!!
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2005, 03:11:02 AM »
Salam

Excuse my long absence. .....

Mr Hill should have read the news report posted in the first posting that is generating this thread. The matter at hand is not stoning a woman for commiting adultery. No, this deals with punishing people (two men and possibly more) who have commited heinous crimes ( assault, battery, concealing evidence and perjuring themselves in court). Put simply, they raped a  3 year girl to death.

Now, Dave raised a very important point derived from the bible which, quite honestly, confounds me. Let me quickly point out that I do not, even for a second, doubt Jesus' judgement. BUt, doesn't it sound unfair to let a sinner run free just because those going to punish the sinner are sinners themselves? What sort of sins have the punishers committed? Are there not muliple degrees of sin? Isn't sex of wedlock, then and now, considered a mortal sin in christianity?

I mean, should we let Hitler run free simply because the sort of crimes he perpetrated were also commited by others? It sounds preposterous doesn't it?  My understanding of Jesus' proclamation to the 'Kapos' was more a way of dealing with that particular situation than denouncing the punitive consequence of some crimes being death. Why he will do that I dont know.
When you really look at it, this judgement is like the reverse of 'an eye for an eye will make the whole world blind' in that ultimately, no one will be punished for anything because in the end we all are sinners.  

I sense there is some consesus on the need for the death penalty to exist for certain crimes which the society consider 'vicious' or 'barbaric'. But because our world is not perfect and many people have different value systems, who is to define what constitute of vicious crime?

Until such a time when we all agree on who to kill and for what reasons, I think it's best if every soceity chooses for itself what serves them best. That may include putting adulterers to death - Men and Women ( no exceptions).........

Done!

Offline _Waziri_

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Opponents of Death Penalty should read this!!!
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2005, 05:01:57 PM »
Interesting comment Amin. This is what we always try making others to see. You cannot condemn others for their values.

I am on a journey so I do not have the composure necessary for me to make meaningful input. But will reach across to you soon pls... Bear with me.

Offline mallamt

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Opponents of Death Penalty should read this!!!
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2005, 06:04:34 PM »
_waziri_
you qouted my earlier posting and commented
Quote
You see my problem with you is whenever I try correcting you you jump to the claim that I hate you. Sincerely speaking if you should forsake that thought pattern and look at what I will say objectively you will then see how the above comment by you may remain irrellevant to muslim minds.

If we say the type of legal system doesn't matter at all then we can easily conclude that nobody should worry when Muslims say they want Shari'a. We can even say since legal system doesn't matter then all should adopt Shari'a or even abandon any legal system and live a lawless society.


Let me respond to you as follows

1.  You indicated that whenever you try correcting me I say you hate me.  Can you kindly let us (me) know how many times constitutes "whenever"?  Also may you remind let us (me) know  the context I used the term "hate" when refering to what you have said? I am assuming you are an honorable person who would not make accussations or comments that are not grounded in facts, so it will be important for us (you and I) to clear the questions I have raised or else it will be like you are just churning out factless comments.

2.  There is a difference between a legal system and the laws that are made.  I believe as usaul you did not read my comment nor try to understand it before you responded.  It is narrow mindedness to think that a legal system is the same with laws.  In your comment you go further to say that my comment may (or) suggests that we can do away with a legal system, now I am not sure where you got that but that is very far from what I said and again it is a sign that you never went through my comments, it is a gross misrepresentation of what I have said that you are trying to put forward here and it is a dishonest tactics.

3.  You also concluded that from what I am saying then it should be okay if muslims say they want sharia.  And the answer is an emphatic yes, remember the issue people may have with sharia is not the system itself but the type of rules (laws) and punishments prescribed.  Do not forget that nigeria is not the only country in the world were you have sharia, there is in most north african states and yet there is no uproar the way we have in nigeria.  The issue is the nigerian sharia is political, this makes it open to a lot of injustices and unfairness and it is seen today.  Now on the sharia laws we have in nigeria, I am sure if nigerian muslims would agree for the laws to be tested in the public domain and an acceptable tool for the measurement and acceptance of evidence in court no one will have a problem.  What we are seeing today in nigeria (sharia states) is a case of where  talakawa and women are the only ones falling foul of the law.  Let us take for example the case(s) of the women accused of adultery, can we say that they are guilty and the men are not? a logical argument is that if a woman says it is a particular person and the person denies it and the courts believe him then we are left with two positions either it is a miraculous child in which case the woman should be held in high esteem or she has gone through medical process and is just a surrogate mother in which case she was not sexaully penetrated.  Can you imagine that had the case of these women not reached the media the chances are very high that the penalties would have been carried out, because the likely hood that they would have appealed would have been very low.  You should have a look at what the sharia position with respect to this issue is and how the law is applied in countries like Algeria, Morroco, Tunisia etc.  They understand it and apply it completely different from how we do in sharia states in nigeria.  So _waziri_ I do sincerely hope you understand the difference between a legal system and laws and understand the fact that sharia is not the main issue but the sharia laws and how they are understod and applied in nigeria.

 


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