I don't understand the killings

[moray]

Even though I am not muslim, I have a huge respect for muslims. Unlike Christians, they are not hypocrites and they follow the teachings of their religion. I have been shown many kindnesses by muslims. I simply do not understand how Nigerian muslims could kill innocent christians in response to the publication of hideous cartoons by evil europeans. I know it is only a tiny minority of muslims, but they did it openly without anyone trying to stop them. There were protests against the cartoons in other muslim countries, but these protesters only tried to punish the originators of these cartoons, not innocent christians. I know christians have done horrible crimes to muslims since the crusades and are still doing it today in Iraq, but surely that does not justify muslims sinking to that level.
I like to think muslims are represented by the great general Saladin, who despite extreme provocation, showed charity and tolerance to his christian enemies and the christians under his control, on one occasion he even returned a christian baby to its natural parents.
I look forward to Nigeria becoming an Islamic Republic one day, I beg Nigerian Christians please show that all the people under your care will be shown justice and tolerance.

[lionger]

Hi Moray

It really is no surprise that you don't understand the reprisal riots and killings that have been going on in the North (and are now occuring in the East as well), as you admit in your heading. For if you really did understand them then perhaps your post wouldn't be exhibiting a similar level of ignorance, lack of sensitivity, and fallacies of logic that spawned these tragedies.

Simply put, the riots started as a result of the publishing in some European newspapers of some very ill-advised and slanderous cartoons against the Islamic religion. The cartoons portrayed Islam as a violent immoral religion, which by all means is a slanderous comment. Is there reeally a difference between their actions and your blanket characterizations of all Christians as hypocrites?

Even though I am not muslim, I have a huge respect for muslims. Unlike Christians, they are not hypocrites and they follow the teachings of their religion.I simply do not understand how Nigerian muslims could kill innocent christians in response to the publication of hideous cartoons by evil europeans. I know it is only a tiny minority of muslims, but they did it openly without anyone trying to stop them. There were protests against the cartoons in other muslim countries, but these protesters only tried to punish the originators of these cartoons, not innocent christians. I know christians have done horrible crimes to muslims since the crusades and are still doing it today in Iraq, but surely that does not justify muslims sinking to that level.

Good, you respect Muslims and Islam even though you are not a muslim, and you rightly condemn the violence, as we all do. I beseech you to go a step further and extend the same olive branch to other ppls and faiths, including Christians and Christianity. This includes , showing respect to peoples of those religions and their faith. Painting all Christians as hypocrites who don't follow their own religion is a very wrong and insulting statement and you really should take it back. I am a Christian, am I a hypocrite as well? Do you know me?

For the umpteenth time I have to ask, why is Christianity being bashed in these discussions? Such comments really do not add anything good to the debate. Is it really that hard to defend Islam's image without smearing that of Christianity? Christians are not responsible for the publishing of the cartoons - and are certainly not to blame for the Iraq melee  :!: So Can you answer this question moray?

I like to think muslims are represented by the great general Saladin, who despite extreme provocation, showed charity and tolerance to his christian enemies and the christians under his control, on one occasion he even returned a christian baby to its natural parents.

Very good, you choose to associate muslims with Saladdin rather than the misinformed folks that perpetuate violence in the name of Islam. Please extend the same courtesy to us as well. Try and think of all Christians as represented by their "namesake" - Jesus Christ. Not by the Crusades of several centuries past, not by US agression against Iraq, not by the ensuing reprisal attacks in Eastern Nigeria. Can you do that?

So in essence, dude, pratice what you preach, if not you are also a part of the problem too. Are you willing to extend the same olive branch to us?
God bless

lionger

[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

Moray, as usual, makes little sense.
No doubt he believes the Moslems killing Moslems in Iraq at the moment is secretly organised by Christians.
I will probably receive some incoherent ravings from him in reply.

He obviously hates Christians and is incapapble of disguising this.

Here are some questions.

Does the Qoran forbid the killing of innocent people?
What is suicide bombing?
What is flying planes into towers full of innocent office workers, many of them Moslems, many of them Africans, all of them innocent of any crime against Islam?
What is killing innocent Nigerians over cartoons published in a country
miles away which has nothing to do with Nigeria?

I am prepared to believe that Islam is a religion of peace. The evidence is getting pretty thin however.
I get very few answers to these awkward questions.
You see we all remember the Europe of several hundred years ago when  fanatical Christians abominated the Bible by killing, in the name of Christ, those they did not agree with.
But always the strong voices of good people spoke against this even if they were martyred for speaking out.
I know there are very good people who contribute to this forum.We need to hear more from them.
For evil to  triumph it only requires good men to say nothing.

[HUSNAA]

Moray, as usual, makes little sense.
No doubt he believes the Moslems killing Moslems in Iraq at the moment is secretly organised by Christians.
I will probably receive some incoherent ravings from him in reply.
He obviously hates Christians and is incapapble of disguising this.

Come on Dave M Hill. U are in danger of becoming incoherent yourself. I suppose Moray would make more sense to you if he took an antagonistic stance and condemned islam indirectly?[/i]


Here are some questions.

Does the Qoran forbid the killing of innocent people?

Yes the Quran strongly condemns the killing of innocent ppl. The Prophet made that clear when ever there was a campaign, that women, children old ppl should not be killed and civilians in general.  When they are taken prisoners, they are treated with the utmost compassion and mercy which went a long way to making them embrace Islam than anything els could achieve. He even condemned the ransacking of captured towns which included leaving their fields of crops and valuable trees intact.
In the Qur'an Allah SWT commands the prophet to tell the prisoners of war and I quote a translation of the Qur'an here
"Oh Prophet, tell the captives you have taken: If God finds some good in your hearts, He will reward you with something better than was taken away from you, and forgive your sins, for God is Forgiving and Kind" Surah 8 (Spoils of War) verse 70. If the prophet and his followers killed prisoners of war indiscriminately as non muslims are apt to believe and propagate (such falsehoods), then who is the Quran referring to as 'the captives you have taken?' surely the captives have to be alive in order for the prophet to communicate to them the Commands of Allah?
In the same surah, Allah SWT Commands the Prophet that
"No apostle should take captives until he has battled and subdued the country.You desire the vanities of this worldbut God Wills (for you the reward) of the world to come;and God is Almighty and all-wise". Surah 8 verse 67. This is in direct contrast to what we have been hearing these days about America capturing innocent ppl on the streets and having them flown to remote destinations and tortured as prisoners of war, simply because they are seen as a threat. Also Islam categorically condemns the torture of prisoners of war



What is suicide bombing?

color=indigo]Suicide bombing ( I think) is when some people strap bombs around their persons and detonate it killing themselves and anyone in their vicinity. Does that answer yr question? I dont think so! what you want to know is its relationship with ISLAM.
Suicide bombing HAS NO BASIS in islam. It is apparently a late 20th - 21st century phenomenon. Granted most of the suicide bombers were muslims. But that doesnt make it Islamic or accepted by muslims in general. Allah SWT Has denied anyone who takes his own life paradise. The person will not even smell its fragrance and its fragrance in the next life, can be inhaled at an allegorical distance of 500yrs, or many light yrs away (to  explain it to the 21st century layman). And as Islam condemns killing innocent lives, then suicide bombing becomes totally unacceptable in Islam. The majority of muslims will never commit such a heinous crime either..[/i][/color][/color[/i]]



What is flying planes into towers full of innocent office workers, many of them Moslems, many of them Africans, all of them innocent of any crime against Islam?

I expect it is has the same connotations as napalming the jungles of south east asia during the vietnamese war and killing hundreds of innocent vietnamese by the american GIs. Or the My Lai killings of women and children by the Americans in vietnam.
But you seem to be forgetting that the Israeli army does the same, flies planes and shoots at civilians or bulldozes complete Palestianian settlements.  And what about Sabra and Chatilla in 1982? I suppose that doesnt matter because the perpetrators are Israelis against Palestinians? So it is not an act of terrorism I suppose by Western perceptions. Or how about the deliberate bombing of Iraqi civilian targets by American soldiers and calling it collateral damage?  [/i

What is killing innocent Nigerians over cartoons published in a country
miles away which has nothing to do with Nigeria?

That was an unfortunate affair. If people will stop to analyse issues properly, they will realise that there were no such incidents in the   religious hotbeds of unrest like Kano and Kaduna. Granted there were no demostrations in Kaduna so that such an occurrence doesnt happen because it is such a volatile region. However, there were such protests in Kano and the most violent thing that happened there was the burning of the Danish flag. I would like to bring to your notice also that Kano state is the most orthodox Islamic state in the whole of Nigeria. But violence against christians did not occur.  People know the difference between who were responsible for the sacriledge and who were not. Whenever there is violence in Nigeria especially religious,  it is not the decent upright muslim or christian who starts it. Those who start these violence are disenfranchised youths who come from very poor backgrouds, never been to sch, and consequently embraced drugs  hooliganism and a gang culture at that stage of life when they are full of raging hormones and need an outlet for them and also money to maintain the drug addiction. I can tell you they are the bane of any society. This social problem has been brought about byvery bad governance which has led to extreme poverty the total collapse of  civic infrastructures like law and order in Nigeria. [/color]


I am prepared to believe that Islam is a religion of peace. The evidence is getting pretty thin however.
I get very few answers to these awkward questions.
You see we all remember the Europe of several hundred years ago when  fanatical Christians abominated the Bible by killing, in the name of Christ, those they did not agree with.

Well I am glad to see that you are willing to look at both sides of the coin.
I would like to point out that there are over 1billion muslims in the world. But the actions of a few thousands has tainted the rest of the muslim world.
The  Holy Qur'an sanctions fighting against oppression and transgression. It sanctions fighting for the freedom and safeguarding of the Islamic belief. But this should not lead non believers to label Islam as a religion of violence. It sanctions the above because it is a religion of realism, that deals with all facets of human nature and how to deal with it. Allah SWT who Created mankind Knows His Creation better than anyone, and all the laws laid out by Allah are meant to create and promote harmony and  peace between human kind. If some people both amongst muslims and christians decide to interprete the Laws of God after their own fashion, it does not mean that Islam or the laws of God are wrong. Rather, you should question the ppl as to why they tend towards violence and not attribute it to the religion of Islam.
The problem with many of us muslims in this forum is that we are not well versed in a lot of the aspects of our religion and therefore we cant defend it with convincing facts as we ought to and that includes me as well

[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

Thank you,Husnaa for your careful response. You can be assured that I absolutely deplore the actions of Israel against Palestinians and I have made my position clear about the evil of American/British behaviour in Iraq (and Afghanistan) on this forum on many occassions. This wickedness which has resulted in thousands of deaths of innocent women and children no way justifies revenge atrocities against other innocent people however.

Personally I do not ask the religion of persons who kill innocent people. They are all equally wicked and equally deserving of damnation.

I have no problem what religion anyone is.
I judge them only by their actions.

[EMTL]

I look forward to Nigeria becoming an Islamic Republic one day, I beg Nigerian Christians please show that all the people under your care will be shown justice and tolerance.

Amiyn, may Allah (SWT) answer our prayers. Islamic Republic of Nigeria would be a very PEACEFUL place to live.

[guest33]

HUSNAA,
Thank you for the time and thought you have taken to respond to some challenging questions posed by the previous writer. I hope you grant me the same indulgence with just one question
Do you believe it is safe for a non-northerner to live in the north?

[HUSNAA]

Hmm.... I just spent the last hour composing a reply and when I clicked submit, I was asked to log in again! what a waste of time!!!! How do I avoid this kind of thing..any one know?
Hello Guest 33. Welcome to Kano online.  I must admit that you have asked a relevant and important question which should be asked by all Nigerians regardless of which part they are from. We live in a time in which Nigeria can be likened to an old and worn out cloth that is subject tobeing ripped to pieces at the slightest  strain. Nigeria is going through a social malaise brought about by decades of bad governance and leadership.  The populace is served with sporadic electricity, intermittent water water supply, pock marked roads, ill equiped hospitals ill funded educational institutions, poor security. The youth have been robbed of their potential livleihood, the old have been robbed of their pensions and the middle aged are trying to make ends meet. Poverty has become cemented into the carcass of our lives and we cant seem to get rid of it because our so called leaders have yoked it around us and kept us suppressed and oppressed.  People are frustrated, dishertened angry and vent out any which way they can at the slightest excuse. This happens  all over the country and so we get sporadic violence. I ask myself also whether it is safe for me as a northerner to live in the south and I answer myself with a resounding no. I expect nothing will happen to me really were I to go and live in the southern part of the country, but at the same time, I would have laid myself open to the threat of assault if I were to be caught unawares in an ehthnic crisis. I expect you feel the same way. Its sad really for us all. But until there are social and economic turn around for the better, these feelings of mistrust will remain with us because they are genuinely founded.
Safety really where ever one happens to be is found only with God. The north is not safe for northerners either anyway just as the south is not a secure zone for southerners. Take an example of the spate of political murders, or day light armed robbery, or road jackings. Just this morning, I happened to hear from the BBC Hausa service, the murder of a prominent lawyer in Kaduna,  who was shot at point blank range inside the compound of his house by two hired hitmen. Now how much more insecure can one get? So the best thing to do is Tawwakaltu-allalah. Trust in God and pray for security and guidance from Him. There is no other way out.

[moray]

Thanks EMTL. Of course what I meant to say was, I beg Nigerian Muslims to show that everyone under your care will be shown tolerance and justice.
EMTL please assure everyone that the vast majority of Nigerian Muslims are horrified by the killings of innocent people, especially when it is done in the name of Islam.

[neozizo]

Husnaa's Response to Guest33's question makes practical sense.
From my interactions with people from all parts of the country and varying social status i have noticed that all nigerians,whatever there ethnic or religeous leanings, experience same type of economic and social hardships and have similar aspiration for a better way of life.
Ive also noticecd that people who are economically better off are more tolerant and accomodating of other peoples's religions or ethnic groups while the reverse is the case for poor people.

[HUSNAA]

Very True Zizo. People who are more economically secure are more tolerant. Take an example of China and Hong Kong. Hong Kong is one of the safest cities in the world. You can practically walk around at night at around 3am or 4 am and you have no fear of being molested. Whereas just across the border in China, its totally the opposite, especially in the newer booming economic cities where there is a mix of poor and rich.

[moray]

You don't have to be rich to be tolerant. The great thing about Islam is that it is classless. Even the King of Saudi Arabia, one of the richest men in the world, was buried in a common grave. Even poor or uneducated people should be able to tolerate other people. Please don't use this poverty excuse to explain the killing of innocent people.

[HUSNAA]

We are not talking of rich. We are talking of satisfaction. We are talking about fulfilling the basic physiological needs required to conduct a decent life like having food, shelter, clothing, medical care, education, law and order and also something to do to occupy your time and earn you a livelihood. If you can supply ppl that, you've no need to worry about the devil finding work for idle fingers.
Check the list out and tell me which one is effectively implemented in Nigeria.

[neozizo]

You don't have to be rich to be tolerant. The great thing about Islam is that it is classless. Even the King of Saudi Arabia, one of the richest men in the world, was buried in a common grave. Even poor or uneducated people should be able to tolerate other people. Please don't use this poverty excuse to explain the killing of innocent people.

I beleive u misundrstood my point.
I am not given excuses of poverty for the violence,im just pointing out the reality on ground from my personal experience in Nigeria.
Its good u  mentioned King Fahad  Of KSA,u couldnt have given me a better example to illustrate my point. its a fact that the ordinary saudi citizen can afford the same basic things needed for a comfortable life as the king, in fact the royal family prides itself on this fact.
I also want to point out that there are some multi-ethnic non-muslim communities that  are tolerant of one another and live in harmony.Likewise there are some poor multi-ethnic multi-religious communities that have acheived a fair level of tolerance and live together in peace n harmony... WHY CANT IT BE SO IN NIGERIA?

[HUSNAA]

Nevertheless, you are correct Zizo, there is a definite relationship between poverty and violence and it  happens all over the world. Too much poverty results in violence. I have no time to argue the point, and its a very obvious point anyway, so there is no reason to go over old ground.