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Corrupt and fraudulent Governors

Started by dan mama, September 28, 2006, 01:16:59 PM

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Barde

Haba Ummita, you cease to be as discernible as i used to know, you just went about calling us names and arguing blindly. I will reply you tomorrow inshaAllah.
im

Barde

Ummita,

I made myself clearer but you still went ahead and misunderstood, eventhough i said its a waste of time discussing the issue, its important for me to reiterate my opinion, perhaps you and your Battallion may see reason in what i meant.

What i did essential is to discuss about the genesis of women as rulers/workers(which we all know that its alien to us) by given an example of the Countries that have given women the so-called rights of freedom and left them free to do as they wish are now shedding tears of remorse over the pathetic plight of their degeneration and disintegrating societies, their women being economically and socially independent, are no longer faithfull and dedicated daughters, wives, sisters and mothers. Scholars of such countries opined that "In human history the periods which have been plagued with decay and degeration are those in which women have stepped outside their homes", one other scholar also opined that "I have firm belief that this world will transform into heaven if women shoud be content in cherishing their children and fulfulling their domestic responbilities." Emphasis mine.

Quote
*Signs*......where r d "Flintstones"? I meant Fred & Barney....(Barde & Muhsin). Seriously I taught stone age was an era of the past & u guys hav got rid of cocoa leaves & xchanged dem 4 clothes. That statement of "woman's place is in d kitchen" is long gone but d way I c it, u boys r just guided by ur very over inflated MACHO EGO's, which has resulted in ur propagation dat a woman shud not work but deserves only 2 b in d kitchen!!!!!  What's my gripe is, how these boys go on about women cant & shudnt work!!! And the annoying thing is how the cunningingly use religion to support their point.

No wonder marriages of 'stone age era' were more blissful, children of 'stone age era' were more respectful and the whole society was more peaceful and conducive. Suprisingly, the 'stone age era' is considered as old-fashioned and yet they did not witness the kind of morale decadence the 'modern world' is witnessing.

Quote

Lionger rehighlighted......their claim.....dont mind them jare. I dont know where they got the notion of their misconception & they r here harbouring that idea. Let me shed a LITTLE LIGHT on d LITTLE I KNOW

Islam is eligatarian & has a creed that rejects that macho "feeeeeel" men have ova women. Islam detonates the connotion dat men feel of being superior 2 women & considering them inferior. men.


You goofed, who said men are superior to women? we were just trying to remind you of your God-given responsibilities, which you all acknowledged, though you all refused to understand the consequences of abondoning such responsibilities which our Holy Prophet (SAW) had warned His ummah much earlier that "The worst period for the muslims will be when they will be dominated by their women, who would be sole managers of their collective affairs."  Nabi (SAW) further said "The woman who remained within her home and take care of her children will be with me in paradise." What better tidings a woman or anybody would cherish more than being with the Holy Prophet (SAW) in jannah??? What the latter Hadith is teaching you is that its better for you to do what the prophet says and be with him in Jannah than emulate the Thatchers, Ellen Sirleaf's, Dora Akunwuli's, etc which will land you and everybody in trouble.  Being at home doesnt make you inferior to men rather you are obediently discharging your God-given responsibilities, anything contrary, we will find ourself in trouble which is already manifesting. All the same, if you consider it as being inferior, so be it.

Go ahead and become rulers of the world but the consequence is going to be catastrophic.

Let me leave you with another Hadith "when your rulers and caretakers are wicked and your rich are misers, and your affairs are looked after by the women, then your death is better than life." Emphasis mine.
im

Dave_McEwan_Hill

I am quite frankly gobsmacked by some of the remarks published in this discussion. Many of the views expressed belong 2000 years ago if they ever belonged at all.
I have had a long and generally happy and productive life. Whether here in Scotland or in Africa I have worked with and alongside many marvelous women. I have never noticed them being any less able than men. In fact I have seen so many men whose behaviour is so badly affected by illicit sexual desire (including me!) that I would say that women are much more reliable most of the time than men.
In fact not only are women more reliable they are usually more honest, most caring,more conscientious and more responsible than men.
Men can be constructive and progressive and innovative (but also aggressive and ambitious) but it is usually the woman that supplies the stability and the detail.
Ideally every person of whatever gemder should be allowed to stretch themselves and contribute their best effort to the community. If that means taking charge of things because you are good at it your gender is unimportant.
maigemu

Dave_McEwan_Hill

I am quite frankly gobsmacked by some of the remarks published in this discussion. Many of the views expressed belong 2000 years ago if they ever belonged at all.
I have had a long and generally happy and productive life. Whether here in Scotland or in Africa I have worked with and alongside many marvelous women. I have never noticed them being any less able than men. In fact I have seen so many men whose behaviour is so badly affected by illicit sexual desire (including me!) that I would say that women are much more reliable most of the time than men.
In fact not only are women more reliable they are usually more honest, more caring,more conscientious and more responsible than men.
Men can be constructive and progressive and innovative (but also aggressive and ambitious) but it is usually the woman that supplies the stability and the detail.
Ideally every person of whatever gemder should be allowed to stretch themselves and contribute their best effort to the community. If that means taking charge of things because you are good at it your gender is unimportant.
maigemu

HUSNAA

Wai an ce laifi tudu ne sai ka take naka ka hango na wani.
You men are so fond of quoting the hadeeths at women to explain to us where we are wrong or where we are failing to follow the sunnah of the prophet. What about you men? Are u following the sunnah of the prophet? Did the prophet advocate a western style of leadership? Isnt that what u men are so thick as thieves with, that you fight and kill each other to attain a position in a secular westernized politcal system? Isn't there not supposed to be a rat race for the leadership? Isn't leadership in Islam supposed to be given to the one with the best conduct, best understanding of shari'a, the Qur'an and etc? Is it happening? Where is the caliphate system whereby all muslims of the world should be under the umbrella of one Caliph?

Quote from: "Barde"
Let me leave you with another Hadith "when your rulers and caretakers are wicked and your rich are misers, and your affairs are looked after by the women, then your death is better than life."

Right on target there, Barde. 'When ur rulers and caretakers are wicked... ' Right; who are the caretakers?
Men.  
'when ur rich are misers... '

Who are the controllers of the wealth in Nigeria for example?
Men
Isnt that an indictment on men?
and hasnt it ever occured to you that if you men had done what the prophet had told you to do in the first place, the women may not have come out clamoring for change? If u men had not engaged in the most stupid wars and literally brought down a country to its heels, there wouldnt have been an Ellen Sirleaf Johnson to salvage the mistakes made by men; there wouldnt be a Doris Akunyili, if the men who were in her position had done the job they were supposed to do.

An rika sara ana duban bakin gatari dan Allah
Ghafurallahi lana wa lakum

lionger

Quote from: "Barde"

What i did essential is to discuss about the genesis of women as rulers/workers(which we all know that its alien to us) by given an example of the Countries that have given women the so-called rights of freedom and left them free to do as they wish are now shedding tears of remorse over the pathetic plight of their degeneration and disintegrating societies, their women being economically and socially independent, are no longer faithfull and dedicated daughters, wives, sisters and mothers. Scholars of such countries opined that "In human history the periods which have been plagued with decay and degeration are those in which women have stepped outside their homes", one other scholar also opined that "I have firm belief that this world will transform into heaven if women shoud be content in cherishing their children and fulfulling their domestic responbilities." Emphasis mine.

Who are these Western scholars? I really would like to know :idea:

neozizo

Why it is that 'some people' think men perceive women as inferior when the formr prefer the latter to stay home and look after the family.
Hey, as a man id gladly lounge at home all day and play with the kidz while someone else had to go out work all day everyday if I could.
Seriously i dont think women should work when they dont have to.
I take it nobody has read Nura's post about economically empowering women in Africa?

Ummita n Husnaa,you seem to speak for and against the view of female participation in govt/economy as per the dictates and tenets of Islam.

Dave,bad behaviour is not a function of a persons gender but rather a person is influenced by his environment, beliefs,morality etc

Lionger,I just want to say it seems your perception of democracy and good governance is as how America has successfully made the world to subconsciously accept: that  successful and prosperous   democracy(the American model) is synonymous with secularism, freedom,capitalism and free trade.
The 'failures' of Sharia in places Sudan and Zamfara is as a result of the implementers and not as a result of the shari'a system itself.

Nigeria should adopt a pluralist and tolerant system of government that catewrs for and reflects its peoples beleifs,cultures and customs.
We should not expect that blind copying of western models will work for us.

Quote from: "Dave_McEwan_Hill"Many of the views expressed belong 2000 years ago if they ever belonged at all.
Some of the views worked then and are very relevant today!!

lionger

zizo,

QuoteI just want to say it seems your perception of democracy and good governance is as how America has successfully made the world to subconsciously accept: that successful and prosperous democracy(the American model) is synonymous with secularism, freedom,capitalism and free trade.
The 'failures' of Sharia in places Sudan and Zamfara is as a result of the implementers and not as a result of the shari'a system itself.  
Nigeria should adopt a pluralist and tolerant system of government that catewrs for and reflects its peoples beleifs,cultures and customs.
We should not expect that blind copying of western models will work for us.

I wonder why/how you came to this conclusion about my attitudes. In any case, since time immemorial societies have evolved by copying bits and pieces from each other. Therefore we should not fail to recognise the good in American democracy, and there is good to be found! Moreover, the American brand of democracy is different from the one found in Europe or the one found in certain Asian countries. Yet these nations are for the most part economic powerhouses, successful and 'free'. We need to look at these successful nations and work out a brand of governance that will meet our own unique needs.

Interesting that you mentioned tolerance and pluralism as characteristics of the ideal Nigerian government. Now if there is one issue where religion+state has failed woefully time and time again, it is tolerance. We all know the West has many flaws, but it is far, far more tolerant and accepting than many self-professing muslim nations. Even the recently 'liberated' Afghanistan exhibited some carry-over from the Taliban early this year, when it nearly passed a death sentence on Abdul Rahman for converting to Christianity from Islam. Whether this is due to the implementors or sharia itself is another question, but it is well besides the point. Religion is a highly sensitive and subjective issue, and if allowed to dictate state policy is bound to create havoc and unrest especially in non-homogenous societies. Western societies have a much better record, and we will do well to emulate them in this regard.

There really isn't any reason why anyone would desire to live under the dictates of another man's religion. The Sudan has a similar demographic makeup with Nigeria, and thus serves as a grim and unmistakable warning to us and others. Religion+state just simply isn't the answer.

Dave_McEwan_Hill

Of course, if a woman wants to stay at home and bring up the children that is entirely acceptable - especially if that is a joint and voluntary decision by the parenting couple.
Any notion that staying at home, looking after a household and bringing up children is an easy or lazy choice is nonsense.
Many mothers feel more able to contribute to a family by bringing in the extra income that work will give her and, aftet the children are a little bit grown, that is a popular choice of many in the  "West".
I can see no reason why men should think they alone are the ones to make these decisions about their wives lives.
That is the core of this issue. Have women the right to hold opinions and are their opinions as valid as mens' opinions?
maigemu

Barde

Quote

Wai an ce laifi tudu ne sai ka take naka ka hango na wani.
You men are so fond of quoting the hadeeths at women to explain to us where we are wrong or where we are failing to follow the sunnah of the prophet. What about you men? Are u following the sunnah of the prophet? Did the prophet advocate a western style of leadership? Isnt that what u men are so thick as thieves with, that you fight and kill each other to attain a position in a secular westernized politcal system? Isn't there not supposed to be a rat race for the leadership? Isn't leadership in Islam supposed to be given to the one with the best conduct, best understanding of shari'a, the Qur'an and etc? Is it happening? Where is the caliphate system whereby all muslims of the world should be under the umbrella of one Who are these Western scholars? I really would like to know Caliph?

How can you say we ignored our wrongdoings? when we all have a consensus that the leadership(who are men) of this nation has failed us. You proposed that the leadership be handed over to women for total overhaul, but we are saying that can only aggravate the problem. The burden of leadreship is so enormous that women can't effectively combine it with their God Given responsibilities, it is better for you to stick to your responsibilities as mothers, caretakers of our homes etc, that alone is enough a burden, we did not give such responsibilities, so you cant blame us for reminding you. As hausa's say  'Taura biyu basa taunuwa' or  'Ba'a gudu ana susa duwaiwai'. How i wish you watched a program on CNN, titled, International Correspondent, where a woman narrated how she mercilessly left her five month old baby for media coverage during the Bosnian war, isnt that nonsensical? Only God knows the trauma the innocent baby went through as a result of his mother's stupidity.

Quote

Barde wrote:

Let me leave you with another Hadith "when your rulers and caretakers are wicked and your rich are misers, and your affairs are looked after by the women, then your death is better than life."


Right on target there, Barde. 'When ur rulers and caretakers are wicked... ' Right; who are the caretakers?
Men.
'when ur rich are misers... '

Who are the controllers of the wealth in Nigeria for example?
Men
Isnt that an indictment on men?
and hasnt it ever occured to you that if you men had done what the prophet had told you to do in the first place, the women may not have come out clamoring for change? If u men had not engaged in the most stupid wars and literally brought down a country to its heels, there wouldnt have been an Ellen Sirleaf Johnson to salvage the mistakes made by men; there wouldnt be a Doris Akunyili, if the men who were in her position had done the job they were supposed to do.

Yes it is an indictment, but i repeat, the solution is not for women to takeover. Review my postings for my opinion on the way forward.

Quote
Who are these Western scholars? I really would like to know

Lionger,
I can't remember them by names but they all expressed their views after the survey i mentioned earlier.


Quote


Many mothers feel more able to contribute to a family by bringing in the extra income that work will give her and, aftet the children are a little bit grown, that is a popular choice of many in the "West".


Dave,
Most women down here too are working with the same excuse but most of them recant as soon as the money starts to flow. Though am not married but i have seen so many situations where a wife demands for refund of every kobo she spents in the absence of her husband, in some cases they even refuse to buy anything untill the husband comes back.

Quote

I can see no reason why men should think they alone are the ones to make these decisions about their wives lives.
That is the core of this issue. Have women the right to hold opinions and are their opinions as valid as mens' opinions?


You can never see the reason, because we are on a different platform entirely.  The conditions for marriage is that the husband must provide food, shelter, clothing, dowry etc how can he then not dictate how his house should be? Mind you, our marriages are entirely different from the companionship that is common in your societies.
im

Dave_McEwan_Hill

Barde
I am very aware that attitudes to marriage are very different in different parts of the world.
Also that most women freely accept the constraints that are common in their societies as regasrds to their rights and their behaviour in marriage.
It is only in the last century that women in most of Europe have achieved the rights they now enjoy and some parts of Europe are very far behind in this.
I'm afraid I find any suggestion that women should not have exactly the same rights as men very offensive.
I don't believe any balanced interpretation of any of the world's major religion can be used to justify denying women the right to make their own life choices.
Most of the rules against women's freedom don't come from God or Allah. They come from men who like to have things all their own way.
maigemu

HUSNAA

Barde,
How many men  adequately keep their wives provided with all the necessities they require? How many men bother to do so at all?  You said earlier that women work under the excuse that they contribute to the household economy. Well its not an excuse it is the result of the incapacity of the men to step up to their God Given responsibilities of being the economic providers of the home. And then u said that once the money starts to flow, women demand refund for every kobo spent. For how many average Nigerian families does the money start to flow? The majority of Nigerian families will spend their productive years earning less than 50,000 per month. So how does that equate with enough - to - surplus money flowing into the family coffers for the wife to demand a refund? If you know cases of women who demand refunds for household expenses, it is because you live well above the poverty line. But since there are many more below the poverty line than above it, then your observations are not the general manner of things in the society.
There are no religious injunctions that prohibit women from going out and earning a livelihood. The only injunctions are limits to the sort of work a woman can engage in.....
....and since you are not married (never been probably), you cant know anything about it from the inside, therefore you have NO grounds to talk about it to ppl with many years of experience 8) ... so there!!!
Ghafurallahi lana wa lakum

Barde

Quote from: "Dave_McEwan_Hill"Barde

I'm afraid I find any suggestion that women should not have exactly the same rights as men very offensive.
I don't believe any balanced interpretation of any of the world's major religion can be used to justify denying women the right to make their own life choices.
Most of the rules against women's freedom don't come from God or Allah. They come from men who like to have things all their own way.

Women can make their choices only within the confines of islam, that is the standard. I still repeat we dont belong to the same environment and so you may not reason along the same line with us, what you consider as freedom, we consider it as savagery and what we consider as normal, you consider it as oppression. Islam regards Woman as a "precious Jewel" as one scholar opines, not  to be viewed by everyone. Her beauty and charms are exclusive for the only person that genuinely appreciates and loves her- her husband. Thus she is highly protected at all times.  Unlike the cheap, despised Woman of the West who is at the disposal of any lusty and lecherous man.  

One thing you should understand is that there are guidelines for marriage and the responsibilies of both the husband and wife is clearly explained. Man has full responsibility for the maintenance of his family. This is not only a moral but also a shari'ah. The wife is responsible for the care of her home and welfare of her family. She may express her views and suggestions on all matters but the best role she can play in keeping the marital free intact and strong is to recognize her husband as the person responsible for the running of the affairs of the family and to obey him even if his judgment is not acceptable to her provided he does not go beyond the bounds of shari'ah. Are men to deprive women their rights which was ordained by Allah? The Qur'an states, " Obey not those who over-step the limits (set by Allah)...." It is for her to recognise the husband as the head of the family unit, while the husband spares her from all struggles and worries so that she can give her full attention to the making of a home. The Prophet (SAW) states in one of his hadiths that "The best amongst you are those who are kindest to their wives." in another hadith, "The best charity is that , a man spends his money on his wife and children." also he mentioned in one of his sermons that "O people, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have right over you. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and comitted helpers."  

As you can see the word Freedom is relative, that is why in my opinion, you can't reason along what we are saying.
im

lionger

Quote from: "Barde"
Quote

Quote
Who are these Western scholars? I really would like to know

Lionger,
I can't remember them by names but they all expressed their views after the survey i mentioned earlier.


Hmm. I searched the internet for your quotes and the only places I found them intact was on Islamic websites, all of which credited  them to 'Western scholars'. I'm very curious to know who these scholars are cuz I find it hard to believe that such statements can be made in public without the very predictable and very loud media backlash.

Dave_McEwan_Hill

Barde
All your quotes are sensible and laudable and there is no arguement with them.
None of them however confer the right of dominance to men over women and to imagine they do is to distort them.
I know a large number of educted and thoroughly emancipated Moslem women and they would find your views very offensive.
maigemu