Author Topic: Do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable?  (Read 15184 times)

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Offline dan kauye

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Do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable?
« on: December 30, 2007, 02:51:10 PM »
According to a recent article by Newsweek's Fareed Zakariah, only 13% of American Muslims believe that suicide bombing is justifiable.By contrast,the figures for France,Jordan,and Nigeria,are 36%,56% and 70% ,respectively.As a muslim,do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable? Why or why not? Under what circumstances? Is it a question of humanity vs moral responsibility vs. religion? Discuss..
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Offline HUSNAA

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Re: Do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable?
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2007, 05:01:34 PM »
According to a recent article by Newsweek's Fareed Zakariah, only 13% of American Muslims believe that suicide bombing is justifiable.By contrast,the figures for France,Jordan,and Nigeria,are 36%,56% and 70% ,respectively.As a muslim,do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable? Why or why not? Under what circumstances? Is it a question of humanity vs moral responsibility vs. religion? Discuss..

OK first and foremost.. its not justifiable by any standard. Secondly, before we begin to get shocked or draw conclusions that Nigerian muslims are fanatics, lets discuss how many ppl were actually asked the question in each country in order to arrive at the percentages. Maybe 10000 muslims in the US were interviewed and 1300 of them said it was justifiable, so u get 13% or maybe 1000 were asked and 130 said it was justifiable. In Nigeria, maybe 100 ppl were asked and 70 of them said it was justifiable and so we get 70% of Nigerian muslims saying its justifiable as against 13% of americans, when in actual figures, more americans said it was justifiable than nigerians (130 americans to 70 nigerians!).
So DK, get us the actual figures first then we carry on, otherwise the whole deal sounds slightly fishy to me... I dont agree that 70% of Nigerian muslims would regard suicide bombing as justifiable. Someone is out to frame us because  the US wants to have AFRICOM stabled somewhere in an African country and an jaded excuse to wage war against nigerian muslims.... far fetched huh?  think again..
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Offline dan kauye

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Re: Do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable?
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2007, 04:42:19 PM »
According to a recent article by Newsweek's Fareed Zakariah, only 13% of American Muslims believe that suicide bombing is justifiable.By contrast,the figures for France,Jordan,and Nigeria,are 36%,56% and 70% ,respectively.As a muslim,do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable? Why or why not? Under what circumstances? Is it a question of humanity vs moral responsibility vs. religion? Discuss..

OK first and foremost.. its not justifiable by any standard. Secondly, before we begin to get shocked or draw conclusions that Nigerian muslims are fanatics, lets discuss how many ppl were actually asked the question in each country in order to arrive at the percentages. Maybe 10000 muslims in the US were interviewed and 1300 of them said it was justifiable, so u get 13% or maybe 1000 were asked and 130 said it was justifiable. In Nigeria, maybe 100 ppl were asked and 70 of them said it was justifiable and so we get 70% of Nigerian muslims saying its justifiable as against 13% of americans, when in actual figures, more americans said it was justifiable than nigerians (130 americans to 70 nigerians!).
So DK, get us the actual figures first then we carry on, otherwise the whole deal sounds slightly fishy to me... I dont agree that 70% of Nigerian muslims would regard suicide bombing as justifiable. Someone is out to frame us because  the US wants to have AFRICOM stabled somewhere in an African country and an jaded excuse to wage war against nigerian muslims.... far fetched huh?  think again..

Aunty Husna kenan,wani abun sai ke.. ;D



It appears that you are not only questioning the veracity of the article but also you're  contending the empirical basis(central limit theorem,regression anlysis etc) upon which the poll was conducted or structured.I don't have the answers to any of those questions,but  American or not,Newsweek's one of the  most credible newsmagazines there is,and Fareed Zakaria's one of the finest writers around,and he's also a Muslim,may I add.As likely as those figures may have been hyperbolized,there's no denying that the figures,at the very least,give an insight even if roughly,on the subject's stance for or against suicide bombing.Maybe I'm being brainwashed but I don't allow religious paranoia override a simple objective judgement and I don't believe that everything is a conspiracy.All this is quite a digression,my question is still;(regardless of stastical accuracy) is suicide bombing justifiable under any cirmcumstance? Why or why not? Gives reasons by,say,drawing up verses from the Quran/intellectual perspectives to supplement your opinion.

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Offline Muhsin

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Re: Do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable?
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2008, 01:34:10 PM »
I’ve found some research by Professor Jamal Badawi, acclaimed both in the eyes of Western and Muslim society, you can research on him if you want, he knows his stuff and writing is often scientific meaning he provides hard authentic evidence for his point.

So according to Prof Jamal Badawi:

Jihad is not holy war as Western media are always saying aloud. He gives five reasons:

1. This is an English term, used by the Crusaders, it does not originate in the religion Islam and what is happening is what psychologists call projection.

2. No where in the Qur’an will you find the Arabic equivalent of holy war. Holy war in Arabic does not translate as Jihad, this is a common misconception especially amongst non-Muslims. Nor will you find the Arabic equivalent of Holy War in the saying of the Prophet of Islam, Muhammad, his saying are called hadith.

3. Oxymoron: there is nothing ‘holy’ about destruction, death, blood, rape and killing of innocent women and children.

4. By definition ‘Holy War’ means one religion against another religion. In the religion Islam and nowhere in the Qur’an is there any mention that it is permissible for Muslims to fight with people of a different faith solely for that reason. Rather it should be because they are being oppressed or civil liberties eroded etc. etc. Muslims are not allowed to do to a non-Muslim what they can’t do to a Muslim, those who do so are not Muslims and have nothing to do with Islam.

5. And finally the term ‘Holy War’ has some glamour and appeal about it. But nowhere in the Qur’an is there glamorization of War. In the Qur’an chapter 2 verse 216 it says: ‘Fighting has been prescribed but it is hated’. Like divorce, which is permissible in Islam, but it is disliked. So similarly war should be the last option.



Jihad has nothing to do with terrorism and it is uneducated journalists who seem to be doing anything but their job: provide accurate and honest reports of the affairs of the world. Terrorism means any act that deliberately victimizes an innocent whether individual, state etc. etc. If it Islam than it has nothing to do with terrorism, and if it is terrorism than it has nothing to do with Islam even if they claim ‘in the name of God’. God has not told them to blow up and kill innocent victims for their religion.


So what is Jihad? It is to strive in something, exert maximum pressure to achieve something. In Islam there is such a thing as individual jihad, so if jihad means ‘war’ and something negative how can an individual do jihad? In Islam there is such a thing as jihad with the Qur’an, which is the holy book of Muslims, so how can you do jihad if it means something violent and death with the holy book of their religion? There are many kinds of Jihad and the two mentioned here have no relation with the battlefield therefore when talking about jihad the problem is distinguishing between which one is being discussed, for example, whenever I hear the word jihad mentioned on T.V it is always in relation to war and they even have the never to call it ‘holy war’ but this a) isn’t the meaning of Jihad b) there are many types of Jihad. I am slowly beginning to understand why my Muslim friends become outraged and angry-you have a few minority exploiting and killing in the name of their religion-totally wrong and condemned in Islam as it would be in any religion, and then you have the people outside totally taking things out of context, rephrasing and distorting information for their own individual gains.

Hope this will help us understand what fisrt of all is Jihad. Then when I get back I'll, by Allah's grace give my view.
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Offline Dave_McEwan_Hill

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Re: Do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable?
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2008, 08:57:10 PM »
Excellent post from Mushin.
maigemu

Offline Cekenah

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Re: Do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable?
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2008, 07:45:26 PM »
Quote
1. This is an English term, used by the Crusaders, it does not originate in the religion Islam and what is happening is what psychologists call projection.

2. No where in the Qur’an will you find the Arabic equivalent of holy war. Holy war in Arabic does not translate as Jihad, this is a common misconception especially amongst non-Muslims. Nor will you find the Arabic equivalent of Holy War in the saying of the Prophet of Islam, Muhammad, his saying are called hadith.

3. Oxymoron: there is nothing ‘holy’ about destruction, death, blood, rape and killing of innocent women and children.

4. By definition ‘Holy War’ means one religion against another religion. In the religion Islam and nowhere in the Qur’an is there any mention that it is permissible for Muslims to fight with people of a different faith solely for that reason. Rather it should be because they are being oppressed or civil liberties eroded etc. etc. Muslims are not allowed to do to a non-Muslim what they can’t do to a Muslim, those who do so are not Muslims and have nothing to do with Islam.

5. And finally the term ‘Holy War’ has some glamour and appeal about it. But nowhere in the Qur’an is there glamorization of War. In the Qur’an chapter 2 verse 216 it says: ‘Fighting has been prescribed but it is hated’. Like divorce, which is permissible in Islam, but it is disliked. So similarly war should be the last option.
Fair enough...let's accept this to be true. The only exception would be the Crusader quip, which is rather silly, un-informed and even irresponsible.
Quote
Jihad has nothing to do with terrorism and it is uneducated journalists who seem to be doing anything but their job: provide accurate and honest reports of the affairs of the world. Terrorism means any act that deliberately victimizes an innocent whether individual, state etc. etc. If it Islam than it has nothing to do with terrorism, and if it is terrorism than it has nothing to do with Islam even if they claim ‘in the name of God’. God has not told them to blow up and kill innocent victims for their religion.
Here unfortunately exists a flaw. Dr. Badawi in his expert opinion declares the true islamic concept of jihad to be diametrically opposed to modern-day terrorism, but places the blame for the present misconception squarely at the foot of 'uneducated journalists'. This is even more strange, since he does not fail to mention religious extremism that thrives on this apparent misconception. Objective analysis dictates that blame should equally go to the agents of contemporary 'popcorn' journalism as well as the extremists. In fact, since the jihad misconception is obviously not the invention of the media but that of the from the extremists, Dr. Badawi is better served presenting his ideals as a refutation of erroneous fundamentalist doctrine rather than just the half-baked media presentation.

Quote
I am slowly beginning to understand why my Muslim friends become outraged and angry-you have a few minority exploiting and killing in the name of their religion-totally wrong and condemned in Islam as it would be in any religion, and then you have the people outside totally taking things out of context, rephrasing and distorting information for their own individual gains.
First of all, I daresay that some Muslims who consider themselves separate from the extremists are unwittingly perpetuating this and many other misconceptions about Islam. Let's take this forum as a case in point. Do a search on the word jihad, and you may find that the vast majority of the results all refer to physical combat. Very rarely has it ever been used to denote individual intellectual struggle. Do a search on teh word 'suicide' and you'll find a few examples of Muslims excusing the suicide bombing tactics of Palestinian extremist groups
Secondly, let's take your views on this issue, Muhsin, as another case in point. On a thread Bamalli started about suicide, you clearly expressed strong sentiments against it, as you have done on this thread. However on this thread, you expressed previous support for groups like the Hamas and Fatah, who specialize in such practices! What gives?


Offline Muhsin

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Re: Do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable?
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2008, 01:02:50 PM »
First of all, I daresay that some Muslims who consider themselves separate from the extremists are unwittingly perpetuating this and many other misconceptions about Islam. Let's take this forum as a case in point. Do a search on the word jihad, and you may find that the vast majority of the results all refer to physical combat. Very rarely has it ever been used to denote individual intellectual struggle. Do a search on teh word 'suicide' and you'll find a few examples of Muslims excusing the suicide bombing tactics of Palestinian extremist groups
Secondly, let's take your views on this issue, Muhsin, as another case in point. On a thread Bamalli started about suicide, you clearly expressed strong sentiments against it, as you have done on this thread. However on this thread, you expressed previous support for groups like the Hamas and Fatah, who specialize in such practices! What gives?



I wish I have enough time to respond to you categorically. But unfortunetly my time won't allow that be rightly done. Any way let me, in a bit way respond.

Sincerely speaking, even when I was bringing that above piece, I hadn't read it throughly but he himself (the writer), I and him have parted way partly. Surprise, uh? Don't be, ok? Do you know why; I have once listened to one documentary from BBC. There, one English prof made it clearly that; analysis and research shows that those taking part in suicide bombing aren't actually doing it upon religious base rather out of frustration, anger and shock treatment and so on. He further stressed that the first case of it was reported to have been carried out by non-muslims--Tenil Tigers of Serilanka. Go check it!

And, if I support what either Hamas or Fatah are doing, think there is nothing wrong. Nothing wrong in protecting oneself and showing resistence to the person, no matter how strong he's, attacking you.

Israel is always killing them, destroying there houses, industries, hospitals and everything, arresting them, beating them up and worst more using them as shield--to protect themselve from attack from other Palastine, which even the so-called UN comdemned and called to be stopped.

Hmmm...as I said earlier; time's against me. But I urge you to pls think and judge the situation fair-mindedly. What do you come up with? Forget about anything like different in religion because I apparently understand you are Christian. There is nothing wrong, still you can be wholly fair in your judgement.

Thanks
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Offline HUSNAA

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Re: Do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable?
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2008, 02:11:40 PM »



Hmmm...as I said earlier; time's against me. But I urge you to pls think and judge the situation fair-mindedly. What do you come up with? Forget about anything like different in religion because I apparently understand you are Christian. There is nothing wrong, still you can be wholly fair in your judgement.

Thanks
Cekenah doesnt sound like a christian to me Muhsin, although I havent read anything of his pertaining to religion except the comments he made above. On the other hand, he may be a student of comparative religions or theology.... maybe....
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Offline Muhsin

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Re: Do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable?
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2008, 02:43:03 PM »
It might be, Aunty Husnaa. But I intuitively smell something more fishy; just a suspense, I believe. How was he/she able to dig out my two thread's he/she gave example with? They existed and died before his/her coming. But it could be possible that he/she located them through research in the archieves.

 
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Offline Ibro2g

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Re: Do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable?
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2008, 11:34:41 PM »
Muhsin, thank u for ur posts
From the mere mention of sucide, it becomes haram in Islam, before even mentioning killing people of whatever race or religion. trrrr!

Justice, well hmm.... religion aside, thats a tough one. In Palestine, these people are murdered en mass, and are destroyed in many different ways. Thier lives are ever bleak and terminal even in full health. They are compelled to find solutions among limited options. I'm afraid logically, sucide bombing is an option for them(religion aside).Its not the best option and its not the option I will recommend, but it is one of the few ways they have to fight back. Sadly. But Allah knows best.


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Offline Muhsin

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Re: Do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable?
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2008, 10:36:15 AM »
Ibro2g,

Once, since Sheik Ahmad Yasin was alive, when he was talking with a CNN reporter, after Israel had just lauched attack that claimed many Palastinian lives, he vowed to retaliate. And the reporter asked him in what way could they do that because as everyone knows that Israel has weapons and other stuff. He said in the way they used to do it. He further qoute a verse to support their action of suicide bombing. The verse was; "wa'a idduu lahum mastada'atum..."  It basically means that Allah says muslims should retaliate such Israel attacks in any possible manner. And theirs is only suicide bomb.

Allah masani.
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Offline HUSNAA

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Re: Do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable?
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2008, 10:59:16 AM »
If only when ppl discuss the Palestinian issue, they'd put religion aside... I mean Islam aside. This is not the armaggeddon every one is thinking about and refusing to voice out.
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Offline Muhsin

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Re: Do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable?
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2008, 11:31:22 AM »
If only when ppl discuss the Palestinian issue, they'd put religion aside... I mean Islam aside. This is not the armaggeddon every one is thinking about and refusing to voice out.
?
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Offline Jack Fulcher

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Re: Do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable?
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2008, 11:28:59 PM »
According to a recent article by Newsweek's Fareed Zakariah, only 13% of American Muslims believe that suicide bombing is justifiable.By contrast,the figures for France,Jordan,and Nigeria,are 36%,56% and 70% ,respectively.As a muslim,do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable? Why or why not? Under what circumstances? Is it a question of humanity vs moral responsibility vs. religion? Discuss..

OK first and foremost.. its not justifiable by any standard. Secondly, before we begin to get shocked or draw conclusions that Nigerian muslims are fanatics, lets discuss how many ppl were actually asked the question in each country in order to arrive at the percentages. Maybe 10000 muslims in the US were interviewed and 1300 of them said it was justifiable, so u get 13% or maybe 1000 were asked and 130 said it was justifiable. In Nigeria, maybe 100 ppl were asked and 70 of them said it was justifiable and so we get 70% of Nigerian muslims saying its justifiable as against 13% of americans, when in actual figures, more americans said it was justifiable than nigerians (130 americans to 70 nigerians!).
So DK, get us the actual figures first then we carry on, otherwise the whole deal sounds slightly fishy to me... I dont agree that 70% of Nigerian muslims would regard suicide bombing as justifiable. Someone is out to frame us because  the US wants to have AFRICOM stabled somewhere in an African country and an jaded excuse to wage war against nigerian muslims.... far fetched huh?  think again..

At last, something I can sink my teeth in.  Numbers.  I see nothing wrong in the methodology used to get these percentages.  Remember that these are percentages, not gross numbers.  Husnaa, it is irrelevant that the pool measured for the American Muslims was greater than the pool used for the Nigerian Muslims.  The percentage is the important difference.  If they found that 70% of Nigerian Muslims agree with the use of suicide bombing, that's significant compared with the 13% of American Muslims.  Now you may be right, that your personal experience indicates that 70% is too high, and maybe they used a pool that was biased in favor of the 70% figure (they only asked Kano Nigerians in a particular part of the city, for instance), but you must admit that 70% is a very high percentage no matter what methodology they used.  I would think, given the status of suicide in the Qur'an, i.e. that it is haram, most Muslims would find it unjustifiable no matter the cause.

However, Husnaa, I find support for your suspicion.  A similar question was asked of Muslims by The Pew Research Center for the People and the Press in 2002 and the results can be found here:
http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=165  which shows that 47% of Nigerian Muslims supported suicide bombings while 45% opposed them.  This is a lot closer than 70%/30%, although I don't get a warm and fuzzy feeling from 47% either.  The only country close to 70% was Lebanon at 73%.  Ivory Coast was second at 56%. 

The problem with this discussion, from my point of view, is that even the 13% found for American Muslims is too high.  Don't they realize that wrapping your kids in dynamite and putting them on the bus is just wrong, no matter what the other guy is doing to you?  Don't they see how the rest of the world sees this as Barbaric (except that I don't think that even Barbaric standards condoned this sort of warfare)?  It just amazes me that otherwise sensible people can support such nonproductive actions, killing their own children, naming streets after suicide bombers in Ramallah, and giving large sums of money to the families of the bombers (thereby providing an incentive to these children to be the "family hero" by their deaths).  It really makes Muslims look bad, in my opinion, especially since we listen in vain for those voices of reason from the Muslim community speaking out against this outrage.

It's similar to the tendency in some majority Muslim countries to riot in the streets over the publishing of some cartoons.  Cartoons!  Muslims died in these riots.  They had families, parents, children, who will never see them again.  And for what?  This is where we need the voice of reason to be heard from the mainstream of the Muslim world.  But we don't hear anything.  When Iran had a competition to submit cartoons that were the most offensive to Christians, do you remember the result?  Nothing!  Cartoons were submitted, they were all published throughout the world on several websites, prizes were awarded to the winners, and then nothing happened.  No demonstrations in the US or in Europe, no condemnation by the Pope, nothing.  I know Iran wanted to make some silly point, that Christians can dish it out but can't take it, but that apparently wasn't true. 

Back to work, folks, but I wanted to say something about this jihad business, but that has to wait.  Have a wonderful day.  Jack

Offline Muhsin

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Re: Do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable?
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2008, 11:56:23 AM »
The problem with this discussion, from my point of view, is that even the 13% found for American Muslims is too high.  Don't they realize that wrapping your kids in dynamite and putting them on the bus is just wrong, no matter what the other guy is doing to you?  Don't they see how the rest of the world sees this as Barbaric (except that I don't think that even Barbaric standards condoned this sort of warfare)?  It just amazes me that otherwise sensible people can support such nonproductive actions, killing their own children, naming streets after suicide bombers in Ramallah, and giving large sums of money to the families of the bombers (thereby providing an incentive to these children to be the "family hero" by their deaths).  It really makes Muslims look bad, in my opinion, especially since we listen in vain for those voices of reason from the Muslim community speaking out against this outrage.

Just wanna call your attention you seem to have missed, Mr Jack. When people are push to the end of a rope and nearly falling into some where, a dangerous place, they would do everything, I mean everything, to excape happening of that. Thats what one Hausa popular adage says, which I cannot, for now, remember.

Palastinians are being killed for decades by Isra'el merciless soldiers. I thus presume their impressions is; even if you stay home, decide not to do the intifadah, someday an attack would defenitlyand unfortunetly reach you, aimlessly. Therefore, lets stand and show resistence by all means and such include suicide bombing.

Let me tell you again, because I fear you might think I'm pro-suicide action. Nope! Am neither there nor here. I cannot say, because am not absolutely sure, that their actions are justifiable nor its not.

Allah bring peace to all.
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