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my conclusion from jews and muslims treat of wazz

Started by Ibro2g, January 01, 2004, 06:15:37 PM

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Maqari

first and foremost i would like to render apologies to any person who took the time to read my post, for the misspellings gramatical and writing errors, i wrote the whole thing in extreme hurry and did not take the time to make corrections it must have been of a great dicomfort to ya'll,forgive.
in response to certain points in this thread i will set motion first towards the minor misunderstandings between Waziri and Lionger, Waziri as a fair enough prolific writer myself im concious of how vaig words can be sometimes if not carved and chisseled precisely, to evoke certain responses, i can easily see how Lionger can interprete" Some historians say "History is nothing more than the story of Jews and Muslim" as "You see, Mr Fulcher one cannot boast understanding world politics, economics and legal theories without a good knowledge of Jewish - Muslim conflicts. True to God anything that happens in the world right from the days of the crusades have one to one relationship with Jewish-Muslims conflict"
i would say its just a category mistake and wouldnt take an offence to it.
Lionger although i find many of your points tremendously valid, and further more recognise your stand point as the more neutral one i strongly disagree with certain assertion in your post such as :
"You still haven't explained y the resistance has to use suicidal methods; you mean they can't attack the Israelis w/out killing themselves? Its not like they have nothing else to live for; most of these ppl have spouses and families that depend on them. If their lives r now worthless cuz of severe earthly discomforts then their faith is useless. So why must they also kill themselves? These ppl must believe that a big reward awaits them in heaven if they go this way. Is this true? And this suicide 'waiver' u talk abot, al hamza, is it written in the Quran?"
in the tradition of revolutions and guerilla warfare there has been many tactics and methods none of which are yet to be deemed thoroughly saintlike, even Ghandi had an alternative violence plan in case the peacefull revolution fails,many methods can be looked at as primitive and unorthodox when applied but still many of these methods have proven affective, when chairman Mao led the masses from southern china to beijing duaring the communist movement he sacrificed many chinese women and children in the process intentionally or not there was still human casualties, suicide bombings is a tactic that was practiced by many nations before any islamic country adopted the methodology, the infamous  japanese Kamikazi pilots ware all suicide bombers,
can the palastinians kill the israelis without killing themselves ? for a seemingly intelligent person this is a very trivial question if u are aware of the level of organisation weapons&ammunition,funding and training the israeli army recieves then u will understand that YES the palastinians need human shells to transport their explosives im not going to do a one on one dissection of your centences but generally u seem to take warfare lightly yes they have families and spouses who depend on them , also who are about to become casualties if their husbands and sons do not get the message across clearly, their lives are not worthless cuz of " severe earthly discomforts" their lives are worthless cuz its going to end pretty soon if they do not take action.
"These ppl must believe that a big reward awaits them in heaven if they go this way " this statement saddens me the most not because its an ovious understatement and over simplifying of the issue but because it emerged from a person whose intellect i respect , c'mon bro this is one of the most FOX news advertised and propagated post 9-11 clich?s ever! it used to be that "the muslims commit suicide because of  heavenly promisses of 60 virgins" i was in new york pre and post 9-11 and personally heard or overheard these vaig statements , this type of recklessness should only emerge from mouths that acquired their data through fox and NBC channel sitting in the protective comforts of their living room following the events as a daily entertainment , not people who posess an enermous comprehention abilities, its not only a poorly composed propaganda but an insult to ones intellect,how can anyone convince any person with even an ounce of intelligence that humanbeings will in the 21rst century die tragically for some heavenly promise?as for the question of innocent casualties YES its an unjustifiable thing but then so is war itself! once two parties engage in a mortal combat, all questions of moral and ethical righteousness are void the only good war is the one that dosent take place, there is no history of any war that went smoothly, the only justification is of reasons and causes not the act of killing itself.
PEACE

Maqari


Anonymous

What's happening between the Palestinians and Isrealis is nothing but oppression from one side and that's onbehalf of the jews. The Palestinian people are forced to use suicide attacks given the fact that they have nothing else to live for. WHAT I really want to find out is JIHAD? WHat is Jihad? Why do non muslims have to suffer Jihad?  I am not talking about christians I'm talking about people of other religions such as Hindu, Tao or whatever. Many  people who died on 9/11 shouldn't have, didn't deserve death because most of them had no affiliations whatever their government is doing. One of the forumites talked about Jihad, does that mean that Islam muct rule the world cos my understanding of Jihad is a fight to convert people to Islam by force.

lionger

MaQari,

Welcome to Kano-online! The comments I made in my last post were from a strictly religious point of view. My case is that if kano-online's support for the palestinians is largely rooted in islamic principles and solidarity w/ their muslim brethren, then are they also in support of the resistance' seemingly unislamic actions? So of course I understand the logistics of guerilla warfare and such, but since the resistance takes strong pride in its islamic heritage, how does this heritage influence the way they fight? Or does it?

Committing suicide is one thing; taking innocent civilians w/ u is quite another. If we want to call this a war, fine, but I've noticed that israeli civilians make up a huge portion of the resistance targets, and this is a great insult to Islam and quite unacceptable IMO. Just because these guys claim to be muslims, or that their victims are our arch-nemesis Jews, does not make this excusable. Once again I ask, where is their faith?

Lastly, my assertion that 'these ppl must believe that a big reward awaits them in heaven if they go this way' now seems quite grievious and I must apologise. I particularly detest the US news media and their jingoist leanings, though I must say, I've heard similary words  on this forum. What I do know is that groups like the Hamas are certainly not bereft of some Islamic ideological base (or a twisted form of it).

Maqari

Lionger
 thanx for the warm gestures,im touched LOL,nah but seriously its pleasing, i apologize for my late appearence ,(being a graphic junky is a very tiresome proffesion) about the comments in my post, i dont know if u've read the post that proceeds the above one , i will pretend like u have and continue, i precisely indicated in my post that i do not support any thought of leberation that is exclusively based on a religious affiliation, here are my exact words:
"in the entangled web of the worlds economical religious and political campaigns resides a much more broader deception than many of us seem to notice, and to wholly side with any party based on religious affiliations and shared spiritual beliefs in my opinion is an act of negligence, for there is no religion on the face of earth that did not at one point or another perpetrated and inflicted demise on some parts of the earth,"
i paid the most attention to your reply because it seemed the most neutral one , im not making any judgement on validity only perspective, as far as warfare methodology is concerned i'd rather cease discussing it for ive already stated that its logically unjustifiable, thanx for the dedication of your time and intellect in response to my post.ONE

fastboi

Personally, I don't endorse fighting back by "suicide bombing". It ain't right even in the religion. But all this depends on what perspective you look at things. The palestinians, have to fight back whenever they r oppressed, and as we all know the only way they can do this is by this method of giving up their lives. Now I will only agree with this if they honestly do it in the name of God and the faith, but when this is done in the name of race or land... please! Our religion has told us that the jews r our sworn enemies till life on earth is over, and we have no option but to accept this, it's also quite obvious. And we r required to fight however necessary, for the sake of God. Someone in the course of this discussion asked why do the palestinians target civilians? Don't be myopic, do we not see daily the hundreds of people that die during America's conquests or battles around the world, how many families have been destroyed, families that don't even know what's going on! Just yesterday I was watching CNN and they did a story on the civilians that keep getting killed by foolish American soldiers who get scared by the slightest sounds around them and start spraying bullets at innocent people. A little girl was shot in the head during a wedding ceremoney in Iraq, Can u believe that!
 heard that you r addressed as you r dressed!

lionger

QuoteSomeone in the course of this discussion asked why do the palestinians target civilians? Don't be myopic, do we not see daily the hundreds of people that die during America's conquests or battles around the world, how many families have been destroyed, families that don't even know what's going on! Just yesterday I was watching CNN and they did a story on the civilians that keep getting killed by foolish American soldiers who get scared by the slightest sounds around them and start spraying bullets at innocent people. A little girl was shot in the head during a wedding ceremoney in Iraq, Can u believe that!


Myopic?I guess we could shoot a little American girl and call it even, eh? Is it allright to kill innocent civilians just because the other side does? I asked b4 and I ask again: where is their faith?  That Islamic tag had better be ignored for its own sake.

If you believe the Jews r sworn enemies, and this is a war, allright but then no need beating up a tantrum  w/ the latest Israeli/american crimes in Iraq, Afghanistan, guatanamo bay etc. cuz in this very unconventional war, both sides are accusing each other of the same thing.

Lastly, I think it might do us some good to go back and revisit the state of affairs in the 90s. All these fiery words may have sounded a little off-key then.

Ibro2g

I strongly think we are miss'n the basic point here.
If you do belive there is a Globallisation say Aye
If you do belive that globalisation is world dominance by a discriminant say Aye
And If you think those discriminants are Jews say Aye


Well Aye Aye Aye...
Safety and Peace

lionger


Eskimo

Salam,
Lionger please do not interpret what suicide is in islam to muslims. What the palestinian resistance groups are doing..to the outside world may be suicide and but a muslim jurist may interpret it diffrently from his religious point of view. although I am not here trying to even imagine his interpretation.
Attacking civilians...have they ever attacked jews living in US or UK. why only the "civilians" living on palestinians land?
Remember there are hundreds of thousand of palestines outside the so called plestine teritories...they are refuges because thier homeland happen to be in the israel side of the land. they are refused right to be settled back even under israeli authority because they will "undermine" the jewish population of Israel.
If some people say from Europe come to Nigeria and settled down claiming that their god chose the land for them we may accept them as 'settlers', but imagine if they say we should all get out of our country so as not to undermine their population...will you still claim they are civilians?
Any Jew who migrated to Israel is no longer a civilian. Take it or leave it the truth is one.
It s been long...by the way how is everybody?
color=blue]NOBODY is PERFECT and I am NOBODY.[/color]

lionger

Long time no see, Eskimo ?;D

Quote
Lionger please do not interpret what suicide is in islam to muslims. What the palestinian resistance groups are doing..to the outside world may be suicide and but a muslim jurist may interpret it diffrently from his religious point of view. although I am not here trying to even imagine his interpretation.

see me see trouble; i based my coments on the words of ur fellow muslim brothers here:
http://www.kanoonline.com/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.pl?board=general;action=display;num=1063479816

QuoteAttacking civilians...have they ever attacked jews living in US or UK. why only the "civilians" living on palestinians land?
What is your point? Did the Munich '72 Olympics tragedy occur in a vacuum? Does that ring a bell?

Quote
Remember there are hundreds of thousand of palestines outside the so called plestine teritories...they are refuges because thier homeland happen to be in the israel side of the land. they are refused right to be settled back even under israeli authority because they will "undermine" the jewish population of Israel.
If some people say from Europe come to Nigeria and settled down claiming that their god chose the land for them we may accept them as 'settlers', but imagine if they say we should all get out of our country so as not to undermine their population...will you still claim they are civilians?
What does the word 'civilian' mean?
Quote
Any Jew who migrated to Israel is no longer a civilian. Take it or leave it the truth is one.
I strongly disagree. I believe in the truth that sets one free, and frankly this your 'truth' will only keep me a slave to hatred, much less the Jews. A palestinian civilian is as much a human being as an Israeli civilian and deserves all the rights and freedoms the other has. Just because I happen to be born in an Israeli family does not mean I deserve to die. Who knows, maybe i'm not even comfortable w. the actions of my govt.! Yet we'll come here and scream about guatanamo bay and U.S. indiscriminate bias; are we really better than they?

I guess the right to nurture what would otherwise be severely discriminatory and genocidal views must be accepted in this forum. But don't turn around and say Islam is a religion of peace until we r ready to put our money where our mouth is. How on earth can we say we want peace, and yet hold fact stubbornly to such attitudes? And last, but by no means least, What do you have to say to the Israeli muslims that make up 14% of the population?

Eskimo

I believe some israelis are not happy with the action of their govt, but know that majority are happy with their govt action. If not, we know israel is practising democracy so let see it in action. israel allows those few muslims arab on its land to show the world that it is a multi cultural/relgious society with majority jews.
Okay..I accept that I was trying to push an explanation to you, I was a lil emotional. In my opinion the issue of suicide is good or otherwise doesnt even arise in the case of the palestine. That is the only way they can resist occupation.
Let the pple of israel do something..like pushing their govt to accept two state solution with all sincerity. If they are tired of being attacked. Everybody want peace...but I believe peace doesnt come when it is needed only by words not actions.
If I were to have my way..I dont see nothing wrong with the palestines and the jews staying in the same country (one state solution) with a govt of unity. Let the refuges return to their lands..let there be a neutral country where everyone has equal right. afterall the land of palestine consisted of all the three major religions before this Israeli segragation started.
color=blue]NOBODY is PERFECT and I am NOBODY.[/color]

Guduma

Has anyone heard about the Ballfour decxlaration by Dr. Nahum Goldman, The President of the WORLD JEWISH COUNCIL in 1948?