Author Topic: Chriatian Muslim Dialogue  (Read 59111 times)

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Anonymous

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Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« on: February 24, 2004, 09:28:32 PM »
I find on this site and generally amongst kano citizens there is a denial or refusal to accept the fact that there are hausas from kano who are christians which has led to there non recognition in their state of origin.  I am from kano and a christian and i find this issue very close to my heart.  Here is a site that encourages dialogue between muslims and christians on any issues partaining to their faith and treatment of others, it also has some very good links.

www.answering-islam.org

I would also hear what you think of the web site.  I strongly believe we need this kind of dialogue rather than the burning of churches and mosques.  We need to believe in the supremacy of God we can never do His job for Him, He is Almighty and can cause any thing to cease existing so we do not need to start killing each other.

Anonymous

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Re: Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2004, 01:56:11 AM »
I hope you receive some constructive debate on this subject.

Offline Waziri

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Re: Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2004, 04:23:19 PM »
Mallam, you are most welcome to k-online. But I think you are a bit on the wrong, nobody ever said here, there are no Hausa Christians or anything like that.

And concerning the link you have provided us with. I believe the kind of arguments you see on the site are not things that are new to the respondents on this Forum. Perharps if you should like scan thru' old posts both at the General Board and the Islamic Forum you would come across many posts that carry the colours of the kind of diologue you want us to be holding.

But yet it is not a bad idea if you can come up with a topic, either culled from the site you have provided us with or a string of arguments you can formulate yourself and I believe the ppl around here will be more than ready to contribute with absolute enthusiasm.

thank you and you are most welcome once and again

Offline EMTL

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Re: Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2004, 05:12:17 PM »
Mallam, you are welcome i wish to invite you to Islam. I can supply you with some materials to know some basics about Islam.

May Allah (SWT) guide to His rightous path-amiyn.
In the Affairs of People Fear Allah (SWT). In the Matters Relating to Allah (SWT) Do not be Afraid of Anybody. Ibn Katthab (RA).

Anonymous

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Re: Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2004, 10:42:41 PM »
Waziri, I am glad that you say that "....i am a bit wrong..." in other words there is alot of truth.  Now understan me I never said that christians (hausas) from kano a not welcomed, however, you will agree with me it is there in the tone and suggestions made in postings.

Anyway as you suggested that i start a string of discussion on the matter, i think i have already done so with my statement questioning the thinking that drives us to burn churches and mosques and kill fellow humans all in the name of God.  It is very sad to see kano in its present state, because it is a state and place with so much potential that it will be almost imposible to comprehend.

Kano has been hijacked by religious zealots who sneak into neigbouring states and towns or areas were there is no sharia to have their alchohol and prostitutes.  I stay in zaria and kano when in nigeria and it is beyond believe how guest houses that used to be reasonablely decent have been turned into places of most despicable immorality by our muslim brothers.  In zaria from wednesday/thursday it is difficult to find accommodation 'cos these so called pious muslims are there with their alchohol and prostitutes.  Then you see these same people reciting adu'a with their beads in town insulting and inciting other muslims to attack non muslims.  I get very angry 'cos these people only oppress the masses and the fact that this is done by my own people.  All you have to do is go to Abuja, Lagos, PHC and see what is happening.

Now we have introduced sharia as a state religion what has it done in impproving the living condition of people?  We have managed to create more beggars, create a huge drop in school enrolment, withdrawal and lack of interest by serious investors etc.  It will be interesting to know the financial cost of adopting a state religion.  The action of adopting a state religion on its own is a non acceptance of other people that do not share same religious beliefs.

In 20-50 years from now when we are unable to fill our places in fedral institutions due to lack of competent people we will be demanding that requirements be lowered.  When we will not have serious economic activities 'cos people have left or refused to invest we will loose our few trained people as they would migrate to states they can get jobs!  All we have to do is look at even MAKIA how many int. flight come in or leave from there now?  Kano is economical unviable now for most international airlines, they would rather fly to Abuja, Lagos or PHC! 20 years ago it was not like that!  How many trade delegations have been to the country and how many have visited the north in particular kano?  The writing is on the wall for us there are other ways to legislate without trying to wipe out christians/christianity.  We should leave religion to the individual, you do good you will answer to God you do bad yo will answer to God!  God is the judge we must put away this holier than thou attitude and do something for our people!

Offline Muhammad

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Re: Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2004, 11:15:24 PM »
salam
Waziri mallam is not welcomed if he finds it expedient to hide his name under the guise of well we all know what.
Simple questions for mallam. You said you are from Kano, what area ?
who knows you apart from yourself ?
how is your being dan kano any more important than dialoguing with an Igbo christian?
why use a site like answering-islam knowing fully well its biases?
why invoke the supremacy of God when our concepts of God are truly dissimilar?

You see  i am being abrasive for a reason. people, perhaps yourself,  hide under the freedom internet guarantees to deceive people into believing things, which if allowed themselves, they wouldnt choose.
the only dialogue that can exist between Muslims and non muslims is for all to acknowledge the existence of the other and do nothing that is capable of threatning the existence of the other.
Finally, please dont send me any more emails because i think ou are a LIAR.
If you think I am being stupid then do this; register to become a user giving all the oppurtunity to realize you are not an imposter.
Its a challenge!

Anonymous

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Re: Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #6 on: February 29, 2004, 09:07:51 PM »
mallam mydudu

to ga ansar farko. ka chai wa ya sanni banda ni Allah Ubangijinmu ya sanni.  Bangani tambayarka ba na cewa mai ya banbantar da ne a hade da bayarabe ko ibo ko za ka iya fahintar da ne ga wannan tanbayar taka? A sha`anin kin nuna kai na ga wanan nauran zamani bari in baka labari.  Wato `yan shekaru baya (kamar shekaru 5 haka) wani amini na dan bauch daga wata baban iyali (ba zan ba da sunan sa ba) ya karbi Isa Almasihu ya zama kirsta wato ingayama sai da ya bar bauchi `yan gidan su suka ke shi.  Wato sanu sanu sai kaduna tai mai zafi sai eko nama daqi inna sai binsa akayi gaskiya sai da ya bar niajiriya gabadaya.  Ina ne ina bada shadar ko wa neke? Na san abunda wasu za su gwada yemin ko iyali na?  Kasan Ungogo? kawyemu na ungogo local govt.

I like your honesty and belief that both christians and muslims should acknowledge the existence of each other, although I am not sure of what you mean about the one not threatening the existence of the other, this you may need to explain a bit more

You are quite rite to say the christian God is different from the one of the muslims, here is an extraction on a study paper of the difference.  I am not puting this here to offend any one so if any one finds it offensive i apologise, however please comment and give clarity on areas you think there has been a misinterpretation or misunderstanding.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

A. Belief in Allah

'Say: He is Allah. the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him.' (Surah 112, Al-Ikhlas, verses 1-4)

Most important to Muslims is the belief that Allah is One, Almighty, All-powerful, beyond comparison. The Bible too confirms that truth (Deut. 6:4). However, the concept of the name 'Allah' in Christianity is different from that of Islam in two areas:

i) The origin and meaning of the word

While Arab Christians view the name 'Allah' as a common name for the divine (i.e. 'God' in English, 'Theos' in Greek, 'Eloah' in Hebrew and 'Alaha' in Aramaic), Arab and Orthodox Muslims consider it as the very personal name of God allegedly revealed to Muhammad in the Quran. This view contradicts the Bible. According to Exodus 3:15, the eternal (personal) name of God is 'Yahweh'. It is never translated as 'Allah' in any Arabic Bible. The personal name of God is either kept as 'Yahweh' or translated into to 'Rrab' ('Adonai' in Hebrew, 'Kyrios' in Greek and 'LORD' in English). 'Yahweh' is never mentioned in the Quran nor does it appear in the Hadith. Therefore, Christians and Jews refused to accept him as a prophet based on Deuteronomy 18:20, where 'Yahweh' said, '...a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.' 'Allah' is not known as a common or personal name for the divine in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, the languages the Bible was first revealed in. Linguists and experts in Semetic languages are not sure if 'Allah' is a contraction of 'al-ilah' (the-god), a transliteration of 'alaha' (the-god) in Syriac or a derivation from the Babylonian 'Enlil'. There are about twenty different views as to the derivation of the name 'Allah.' The most probable is that the root is 'ilah', the past participle form, on the measure fi'al, from the verb 'ilaho' (to worship), to which this article was prefixed to indicate the supreme object of worship.' (Muheet-el.Muheet, dictionary) According to the opinion of some Muslim theologians it is infidelity (kufr) to hold that the word has any derivation whatever! But history establishes beyond the shadow of a doubt that even the pagan Arabs, before Muhammad's time, knew their chief god by the name of 'Allah' and in a sense, proclaimed his unity. (Ibn Hisham, earliest biographer of Muhammad, Sirat, Part II., p. 27) Centuries before Muhammad the Arabian Kaaba, or temple at Mecca was called 'Beit-Allah', the house of God, and not 'Beit-el-Alihet', the house of idols or gods.

ii) Allah and Yahweh God have different attributes

The description of Allah in the Quran is deistic. He is completely separate from his creation. The central Christian teaching of God's entrance into the world or of any sort of human fellowship with him is totally absent in Islam.

'The thunder hymneth His praise and (so do) the angels for awe of Him. He launcheth the thunderbolts and smiteth with them whom He will while they dispute concerning Allah, and He is mighty in wrath' (Surah 13, Al-Rad, verse 13)

This verse is a good introduction to the study of Allah's attributes; it expresses the effect Allah's attributes are intended to have and do have on His worshippers. Through fear of death and terror of Allah's mighty power the pious Muslim is all his life subject to bondage. In contrast Biblical Christianity teaches to respect God, to be in awe of him and to obey him joyfully out of thankfulness for what he has done in Jesus. The most common division of Allah's attributes are: Isam-ul-Jalaliyah and Isma-ul-Jemaliyah, terrible attributes and glorious attributes. The former are more numerous and more emphasised than the latter, not only in the Quran but in tradition and in daily life. The net total of the moral attributes is only found in two verses, which mention that Allah is Holy and Truthful in the Muslim sense of those words. God is only called once 'the Holy' in the Quran (Surah 59). Unlike in the Bible the term does not signify moral purity or perfection, 'just the complete absence of anything that would make him less than he is.' (Beidhawi) The Arabic word 'tahir' is only used in the Quran to define outward purity of the body. The Biblical idea of moral purity and utter separation from sin as a prerequisite to approaching God is unknown to the vocabulary in the Quran. Both concepts are of doubtful significance in Muslim theology while they are found throughout the Bible. What a contrast is found in it where God himself is at least 29 times described as holy. (Lev.11:44,45, 19:2, 21:8, Joshua 24:19, etc.) At least 8 times God is mentioned as being the truth. (Genesis 24:27, Exodus 34:6, etc.) While the God of the Bible is called 'just' at least 5 times (Deut. 32:4, Job 4:17, etc.) this attribute is completely missing in the account of the Quran. 'El Adl' - The Just. is only put in the list of his 99 names as found outside the Quran in traditions. The word 'Adl', Justice, occurs twelve times only in the Quran and is never used of the righteous acts of God and only once (Surah 5:115) of His words. In every other case it refers to human equity or faithfulness (Surah 4: 128). It seems Allah does not say about himself that he possesses justice as an attribute. Unlike the Biblical concept of God being inherently good (Psalm 34:8) Allah can therefore do whatever he pleases, be it good or bad. Another attribute of Allah is 'El-Hak,' the Truth. (Surah 22:62) Unlike in the Bible the Islamic concept of truth depends on the situation. According to tradition, a lie is justifiable in three cases: 'To reconcile those who quarrel, to satisfy one's wife and in case of war' (Sur. 16:106. El Hidayah, Vol. IV., p.81).

The Quran gives the reader in a measure a correct picture of God's power as displayed in nature but it has to say very little about his justice and holiness. Consequently the Islamic picture of the nature, origin, consequences and remedy of sin is almost non-existent. Sin, according to the Quran, (Surahs 4:30, 2:80, etc.) is a willful violation of known law or a conscious act committed against known law; wherefore sins of ignorance are not numbered in the catalogue of crimes. Out of this understanding great and small sins were distinguished. Some Muslim commentators say there are seven great sins: idolatry, murder, false charge of adultery, wasting the substance of orphans, usury, desertion from Jihad, and disobedience to parents. Others say there are seventeen, still others catalogue seven hundred! Small sins are regarded with utter carelessness and no qualm of conscience. Lying, deception, anger, lust and such like are all smaller and lighter offences; all these will be 'forgiven easily' if only men keep clear from great sins. The most common word used in the Quran for sin is 'thanib'. Another common term used for sin is 'haram' (forbidden). It indicates that nothing is right or wrong by nature, but only becomes such if Allah says so. What he forbids is sin, even if he forbade what seems to the human conscience right and lawful. What Allah allows is not sin and cannot be sin at the time he allows it, though it may have been before or after. (E.g.: Muttah, 4:28, the marriage of convenience still practised by Shias today, direction of prayer, 2:119, 2:145, number of daily prayers, 30:17, 11:116, drinking of alcohol, 2:216, 5:92 etc.) Muslims are forbidden to worship anyone but Allah and yet the same Allah punished Satan for not being willing to worship Adam (Surah 2:28-31) He reveals truth to his prophets, but also abrogates it, changes the message, or makes them forget it. (2:105) This practice is utterly opposed to the idea of God's immutability and truth. Allah is not subject to an absolute moral standard. He can do what he pleases. He mocks and deceives (Surahs 8:29, 3:53, 27:51, 86:15, 16:4, 14:15, 9:51)

Muhammed-al-Burkawi says: '...if all the infidels became believers and all the wicked pious he would gain nothing. And if all believers became infidels it would not cause Allah loss.' It is therefore no wonder that the Quran has no word for 'conscience'. The lack of all distinction between the ceremonial and moral law comes out most of all in the traditional sayings of the prophet. These sayings, we must remember, have nearly equal authority with the Quran itself. Take two examples:

'Allah's Messenger (peace_be_upon_him) said, 'A dirham which a man knowingly receives in usury is more serious than thirty-six acts of fornication.' Ibn Abbas's version adds that he said, 'Hell is more fitting for him whose flesh is nourished by what is unlawful.' (Ahmad and Daraqutni transmitted it. Bayhaqi transmitted in Shu'ab al-Iman on the authority of Ibn Abbas.)

'Allah's Messenger (peace_be_upon_him) said, 'Usury has seventy parts, the least important being that a man should marry his mother.' (Abdullah ibn Hanzalah; Abdullah ibn Abbas narrated it in Mishkat al-Masabih, Hadith number 2825)

Sin, according to Islam, is after all a matter of minor importance. It is the repetition of the creed that counts, and not the reformation of character. The repetition of the 'Kalima' makes one a true believer, so much so that if one says it accidentally or by compulsion, it would make them a Muslim. It seems that Allah does not appear bound by any standard of justice.

Allah is also described as 'El Awwal', the first, 'El-Akhir', the last, 'El-Dhabir', the substance and 'El-Batin', the essence. These four titles are known as the mother of the attributes, being regarded as fundamental and all-comprehensive. All four occur together in Surah 57:3 which makes it a great favourite among the Sufis, the mystics of Islam. With it they justify their pantheistic thoughts that God is the inside and the outside of everything. He is the phenomena (Dhahir) and the power behind the phenomena (Batin). In that the Sufis agree completely with the Hindu followers of the Vedanta school. There is only one verse, Surah 24:35, in which Allah is described as seemingly dependent on or indebted to something outside of himself. No Muslim really understands the meaning of it.

Unlike the Quran in the Bible we are asked to look at God's Oneness in terms of uniqueness rather then simply as a numerical unity. The Biblical understanding of God's Oneness can also be defined as Multiplicity within Unity, (Isaiah 46:16, 1 Timothy 3:16) a very common phenomena in creation too. (Time = past, present, future, universe = space, matter, time, nature = incredible diversity yet harmonious unity). Man has one mind, which is capable of thinking thoughts and expressing them in words. Mind, thoughts and words are one yet not exactly the same. No one can say that God has no Mind that expresses itself in Thoughts and Words. God in Mind and Thoughts and Words is one God and He never claimed that there would be two other gods beside Him or that He, the numerically One God, would reveal Himself in three parts or modes! The Unity of God in Christianity is truly representative of the Mind of God (or God the Father), His Thoughts, (or God the Holy Spirit) and His Word (God the Son). All are of the same divine essence, coequally and coeternally God, yet they have different functions.

As Christians grew in numbers the need for protection against false teachings arose. Therefore, Tertullian, a leader of the early church, summarised the biblical teaching on the nature of God by introducing the word 'Trinity' at the end of the 2nd century after the birth of Christ (AD). It is derived from the Latin 'trinitas,' being a combination of the words 'tri' for 'three' and 'unitas' for 'unity.' The Church adopted the doctrine of the Trinity at the council of Nizea in 325 and in its final form at the council of Constantinople in 381. (See also, 'The Illustrated Bible Dictionary' by F.F. Bruce, IVP Leicester, 1962, 'Trinity') The Christians definition of Trinity is based on the Bible and expressed in the Athenasian Creed as: 'We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding (mixing up) the Persons; nor dividing the Substance (Essence)' The word 'Person' is here used in the sense of 'self with a particular function.' ('The Illustrated Bible Dictionary' by F.F. Bruce, IVP Leicester, 1962, see 'person') It has to be stated emphatically that Christians do not worship three gods but one God because each member of the Godhead, God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, in some sense indwells the other, without diminishing the full personhood of each. The essential unity of the Godhead, then, is found both in their inmost equality of divine characteristics and also in the intensely personal unity that comes from mutual indwelling. Thus when Jesus died at the cross, God did not cease to exist but was separated from himself regarding the relationship within the Trinity not regarding his essence. To think that God gave up a perfect relationship for a time shows how great his love towards us is!

The main stream of Christianity throughout the world believes in one God, the Holy Trinity. It is indeed a mystery, as God Himself is. Many attributes of Him are accepted, yet are simply not fully comprehensible to the human mind. We all accept that God has no beginning, yet do we understand this? 'Impossible!' the sceptic cries out, yet true. Then why should it be such a problem if there is some aspect of God's essential nature (his Trinitarian existence) which is difficult for us to grasp? C.S. Lewis, professor of Medieval and Renaissance literature at Cambridge University said: 'If Christianity was something we were making up, of course we could make it easier. But it is not. We cannot compete, in simplicity, with people who are inventing religions. How could we? We are dealing with Fact. Of course anyone can be simple if he has no facts to bother about.' ('Mere Christianity', Macmillan Company, New York, 1943, page 145)

The Trinity alone answers difficult questions about the nature of God:

'How could God have been self sufficient and loving before the creation of angels and of the earth?' Since true love needs an object to whom it can give, if the Trinity of God did not exist, there would have been a time when he was incomplete, being unable to have the attribute of self giving love. This can not be true because God has always been and always will be perfect.

'Is God selfish?' Since love is described as having '...no envy;...no high opinion of itself,....no pride;...no thought for itself...(1 Corinthians 13: 4-5) some unbelievers, like John Stuart Mill, Mark Twain or Pablo Picasso have come to the conclusion that God is utterly selfish. They say that by asking us to worship nobody else but God, he himself commits the sin of seeking glory for himself only for which he condemns man. Bible believing Christians find the answer to this apparent contradiction in the Trinitarian nature of God. There he shares his glory among himself.

'Is God limited?' Of course that can not be but he who thinks of God as an absolute unity where there is no room for multiplicity at all, is forced to believe in a god who does not know himself. Self-knowledge demands a distinction, a multiplicity, between knowledge and the one who acquires it. Self-consciousness, the recognition of a creature by itself as a 'self' can only exist in contrast with an 'other', a something which is not the self. Only a Trinitarian concept of God allows for such a vital distinction.

Offline Waziri

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Re: Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2004, 02:20:19 PM »
Quote
Waziri, I am glad that you say that "....i am a bit wrong..." in other words there is alot of truth.  Now understan me I never said that christians (hausas) from kano a not welcomed, however, you will agree with me it is there in the tone and suggestions made in postings.

Yes, I too never said u said that, but this is what you said:

Quote
I find on this site and generally amongst kano citizens there is a denial or refusal to accept the fact that there are hausas from kano who are christians which has led to there non recognition in their state of origin.
 

and that is what I say is not true, for nobody here ever said there are no Hausa Christians  and nobody anywhere ever said Christians are not recognized in Kano.


Quote
Anyway as you suggested that i start a string of discussion on the matter, i think i have already done so with my statement questioning the thinking that drives us to burn churches and mosques and kill fellow humans all in the name of God.

Who did you hear recently killing whom and burning what place of worship? When last did you here about any religious riot in Kano? I believe the present Shari'a Government is controlling that, no be so???  

Quote
Kano has been hijacked by religious zealots who sneak into neigbouring states and towns or areas were there is no sharia to have their alchohol and prostitutes.  I stay in zaria and kano when in nigeria and it is beyond believe how guest houses that used to be reasonablely decent have been turned into places of most despicable immorality by our muslim brothers.  In zaria from wednesday/thursday it is difficult to find accommodation 'cos these so called pious muslims are there with their alchohol and prostitutes.  Then you see these same people reciting adu'a with their beads in town insulting and inciting other muslims to attack non muslims.  I get very angry 'cos these people only oppress the masses and the fact that this is done by my own people.  All you have to do is go to Abuja, Lagos, PHC and see what is happening.

This is not true. If it is, mention names. Or are you sure that all those people you are seeing in Kaftans are Muslims??? Who told you they recite du'a??? Afterall is every person that recites du'a a Muslim??? Please support your claim.

Quote
Now we have introduced sharia as a state religion what has it done in impproving the living condition of people?

 
You and who managed to introduce Shari'a when you are not "recognized" as you claimed? Afterall  what did democracy do in improving the living condition of the Nigerian population? Is it not because we are just starting?????


Quote
We have managed to create more beggars, create a huge drop in school enrolment, withdrawal and lack of interest by serious investors etc.
 

All because we have Shari'a on ground. That is great!!!

Quote
It will be interesting to know the financial cost of adopting a state religion.


Perharps you should help bring the breakdown of the cost to our scrunitiny, that may help us to revisit our position.

Quote
The action of adopting a state religion on its own is a non acceptance of other people that do not share same religious beliefs.

Yes, that was why we hear the government saying all non-muslims should pack and leave Kano, abi???????


Quote
to ga ansar farko. ka chai wa ya sanni banda ni Allah Ubangijinmu ya sanni.  Bangani tambayarka ba na cewa mai ya banbantar da ne a hade da bayarabe ko ibo ko za ka iya fahintar da ne ga wannan tanbayar taka? A sha`anin kin nuna kai na ga wanan nauran zamani bari in baka labari.  Wato `yan shekaru baya (kamar shekaru 5 haka) wani amini na dan bauch daga wata baban iyali (ba zan ba da sunan sa ba) ya karbi Isa Almasihu ya zama kirsta wato ingayama sai da ya bar bauchi `yan gidan su suka ke shi.  Wato sanu sanu sai kaduna tai mai zafi sai eko nama daqi inna sai binsa akayi gaskiya sai da ya bar niajiriya gabadaya.  Ina ne ina bada shadar ko wa neke? Na san abunda wasu za su gwada yemin ko iyali na?  Kasan Ungogo? kawyemu na ungogo local govt.

This charge is base and ignoble which any slob headed can sit down and coin. But why not just mention names I am sure many among the foruminites here will find it adventurous. It is a brand new News.

Finally, Mallam on a very serious note. I really find  you etra-funny in your argumentations. I will want to remind you that this forum is an intellectual forum where arguments are supported with facts and reasons and if you do not have one please you do not have to bother yourself coming in to spit. You are off the hook.

Yes, I find the article you pasted above interesting and will love to respond to some few points in it. But I think you should like post it in a different thread as you can see this one is already filled with maximum sentiment.

Mallam, you are highly welcome. You are really very funny, I have never responded  to anybody in the way I am responding to you. I believe we will have a smooth ride around.

Yours Waziri

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Re: Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2004, 04:20:48 PM »
MALLAM IS SIMPLY HERE TO GET ATTENTION,
I HAVE READ SOME OF HIS POST IN GAMJI FARUM
DOING SAME ARGUMENT.

WELL MALLAM AM SURE IF YOU ARE KANOLICIOUS AND CHRISTIAN
YOU MUST BE A KUTURU OR ONE OF YOUR
FAMILY HAS ONE SUFFER FROM THE DISEASES.
THE MISSIONARIES WHO COME TO KANO TO
TREAT LEPROSY ARE THE ONE WHO CONVERT
SOME OF OUR BROTHERS AND SISTER INTO
CHRISTIANITY.

AND I THINK THERE IS NO LAW IN KANO WHICH PREVENT
ANYONE FROM PRACTICING HIS BELIEVE.
YOU CAN BE A CHRISTIAN, PAGAN, WHAT EVER WHAT
EVER--- AND STILL AN INDIGEN OF KANO, NO ONE WILL
DENIAD YOU THAT, THE ONLY THING IS MOJORITY
ALWAYS LEAD, IN ANY CASE AND ANY
WHERE.

SO PEACE PLEASE, DO NOT COME AND RISE
ANY BLAZE IN THIS FARUM AND THEN START
SHOUTING IS THE MUSLIMS.
COS U HAVE ALREADY START ACCUSING THE MUSLIMS OF
DOING THAT AND THAT,
WHAT EVER ANY ONE DOES MUSLIMS OR CHRISTIAN
IS HIS OWN PROBLEM. STOP MESSING
RELIGION AND HUMAN INDIVIDUALITY.


HMmm!!!! WAI MALLAM :o :o

Offline Eskimo

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Re: Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2004, 04:55:41 PM »
Malam Sannu da aiki yaya almajirai?

It seems you are a graduate of that school in Kaduna for Islamic studies and I can almost swear that you read that book written by Abd al Masih of Austria titled "Islam Under the Magnifying Glass" and to be honest you either have a good - par excellence - memory or the book was right on your lap when you were writing that post!

Anyway...may be we should be taking your points one by one and be discussing them. Like it was suggested please change the topic and behave yoursself there you will get alot of replies...I promise you mine.

Please dont forget to register..We will like to interact more with a member than a mere guest.

Waiting for you.
color=blue]NOBODY is PERFECT and I am NOBODY.[/color]

Offline Guduma

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Re: Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2004, 10:49:46 AM »
Heheheheheheheheheeee! Mallam, Mallam! Haba Mallam!!

Offline madori

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Re: Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2004, 05:24:15 PM »
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mallam mydudu

...... ka chai wa ya sanni banda ni Allah Ubangijinmu ya sanni. ?Bangani tambayarka ba na cewa mai ya banbantar da ne a hade da bayarabe ko ibo ko za ka iya fahintar da ne ga wannan tanbayar taka? A sha`anin kin nuna kai na ga wanan nauran zamani bari in baka labari. ?Wato `yan shekaru baya (kamar shekaru 5 haka) wani amini na dan bauch daga wata baban iyali (ba zan ba da sunan sa ba).... yan gidan su suka ke shi. ?Wato sanu sanu sai kaduna tai mai zafi sai eko nama daqi inna sai binsa akayi gaskiya sai da ya bar niajiriya gabadaya. ?Ina ne ina bada shadar ko wa neke? Na san abunda wasu za su gwada yemin ko iyali na? ?Kasan Ungogo? kawyemu na ungogo local govt......


Wow! from Ungogo local govt in Kano ??? No wonder your hausa is so fluent ::) Sannu mallam Bakano!

Offline Barde

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Re: Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2004, 02:25:32 AM »
quote]

Mallam Bamaguje or Whatever you called yourself, barka da ziyarar kanoonline. I have glanced through the website and it is a nice one. What do you specifically want?

I think it doesn't really matter whether Mallam is a registered member or not.

It is better if you can be quoting the verses from the holy qur'an ?and the bible for clearity as you quoted surah al ikhlas, rather than mentioning or citing them.

Now to my point.

Whom do you refer to as God the son? if the answer is Jesus, then why did jesus said in mark 13:32 and i quote

However,no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or son himself. Only the father knows. (Mark 13:32)

There is also another verse 1 Timothy 2:5 and i quote

For there is one God and One mediator who can reconcile God and people. he is the man Christ Jesus. (1 Timothy 2:5)

considering these verses, how can you say that jesus and God are equal? however let me know if ?jesus is not the one you reffered to as God the son.
 
I am referring you to the islamic section where i wrote on a topic about jesus, you may have comment(s) to make.Thank you.

Barde
im

Offline mallm

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Re: Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2004, 02:13:04 PM »
mallam barde

I am sure u are joking when you suggest that qoutations be made from verses refered to from either the bible or quran, you will agree with me that that will make postings unnecessarily long and it is not a good writing style.  However if you do find that references made are wrong please feel free to highlight them.

Now to the points you raised

On th issue of God the Son I refer you to my write up regarding in this topic which you made reference to suggesting that I qoute go to the section where the Trinity was explained as best as possible. I suggest you ask me questions based on the explanations given there.

Now to Mark 13:32 you understand that the Son is part of the Trinity and while on earth was in the form of man, in His Incarnation, Jesus voluntarily accepted human limitation in submission to the Father's will.  And you would have noticed if you have been a scholar of the bible that this is the first and only time that Jesus used the title "the Son" instead of the usual "Son of Man" this revealed His own awareness of His deity and sonship.  You should also cross reference this verse with Mattew 24:36.  You must note that one of the essential teachings in christianity is that Jesus in the form of a man was exposed to all the hardship, temptations and other human frailties yet He never succumb and thus never sinned and that is what christians are called to, we can not give excuses of situations so as to commit sin we are called to be holy just as Christ was holy.  In other words we are not being called to do or experience anything Christ has not gone through and our remaining sinless is the measure of our faith in God.

About equality of God and Jesus I refer you once again to the section in my earlier posting dealing with the Trinity.  However, on the issue of 1 Timothy 2:5, you have misquoted the verse or you did not qoute from a bible 1 Timothy 2:5 reads:  For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,.... I would like you to please check again and qoute the right thing.  I would like to refer you to Deutronomy 6:4, Isaiah 44:6, Mark 12:29, John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6.  I could go on and on refering you to verses in the bible proclaiming one God. Christians believe in only one God please, you should kindly read the earlier posting.  So what 1 Timothy 2:5 is telling us is that there is only one God and the only way to approach Him is through the Man who was God in flesh (Christ Jesus).

I hope i have been able to answer your questions/points, I would also like you to tackle some of the issues raised in my earlier write up.  

By the way the stlye or manner in which you refered to a Bamaguje are you implying or suggesting that they are lesser beings than you? Just a question

Offline Barde

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Re: Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2004, 03:32:31 PM »
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Waziri, I am glad that you say that "....i am a bit wrong..." in other words there is alot of truth. ?Now understan me I never said that christians (hausas) from kano a not welcomed, however, you will agree with me it is there in the tone and suggestions made in postings.

Anyway as you suggested that i start a string of discussion on the matter, i think i have already done so with my statement questioning the thinking that drives us to burn churches and mosques and kill fellow humans all in the name of God. ?It is very sad to see kano in its present state, because it is a state and place with so much potential that it will be almost imposible to comprehend.

Kano has been hijacked by religious zealots who sneak into neigbouring states and towns or areas were there is no sharia to have their alchohol and prostitutes. ?I stay in zaria and kano when in nigeria and it is beyond believe how guest houses that used to be reasonablely decent have been turned into places of most despicable immorality by our muslim brothers. ?In zaria from wednesday/thursday it is difficult to find accommodation 'cos these so called pious muslims are there with their alchohol and prostitutes. ?Then you see these same people reciting adu'a with their beads in town insulting and inciting other muslims to attack non muslims. ?I get very angry 'cos these people only oppress the masses and the fact that this is done by my own people. ?All you have to do is go to Abuja, Lagos, PHC and see what is happening.

Now we have introduced sharia as a state religion what has it done in impproving the living condition of people? ?We have managed to create more beggars, create a huge drop in school enrolment, withdrawal and lack of interest by serious investors etc. ?It will be interesting to know the financial cost of adopting a state religion. ?The action of adopting a state religion on its own is a non acceptance of other people that do not share same religious beliefs.

In 20-50 years from now when we are unable to fill our places in fedral institutions due to lack of competent people we will be demanding that requirements be lowered. ?When we will not have serious economic activities 'cos people have left or refused to invest we will loose our few trained people as they would migrate to states they can get jobs! ?All we have to do is look at even MAKIA how many int. flight come in or leave from there now? ?Kano is economical unviable now for most international airlines, they would rather fly to Abuja, Lagos or PHC! 20 years ago it was not like that! ?How many trade delegations have been to the country and how many have visited the north in particular kano? ?The writing is on the wall for us there are other ways to legislate without trying to wipe out christians/christianity. ?We should leave religion to the individual, you do good you will answer to God you do bad yo will answer to God! ?God is the judge we must put away this holier than thou attitude and do something for our people!
Mallam,

 You said people are leaving Kano, another christian freind also told me that they also use to travel from Zamfara and Sokoto states too every wednesday and thursday to Zaria, let us assume it is true, the reason why they are trooping to Zaria is because the Sharia there is not very effective, once it is in full force they will migrate together with their collaborators to some where else. As times goes on they will start contemplating going because of the distance, the nature of our roads, arm robbers ?couple with the fact that a litre of petrol is now something else. These factors will prevent them from travelling on a weekly basis instead they will start going forthnightly or may be monthly, it will reach a stage where they will give up completely.

That is the logic behind the implementation of Sharia, it is not just after stonning to death or chopping people's hand, the aim is to deter people from committing all these vices, like the Hausa's say Gani ga wane ya'ishi wane tsoron Allah.

We all agree that there are some lapses but with time every thing will be in order. You acknowledge the fact that people travel all the way from Kano to Zaria which is more than 100 miles, is a step ahead towards the right direction, with time all the cities will be rid of immoral activities. Sharia is not the kind of Democracy we are having,where everything is going from bad to worse and the people in charge are telling us that the democracy is at its infancy.

 I will be very grateful if you can tell us how christianity and christians are being wiped out by the introduction of the Sharia legal system. Christians are just scared of the fastest growing religion in the world and they have shown us their level of intolerence, muslims have tolerated you for donkey years, almost every system in Nigeria is christianity schools, offices, e.t.c and now to allow us practice something that is part of us has become a problem. Like i said in one of my posts, if sharia would be given a differrent name am sure all those who are making noise will keep their mouth shut.

You also talked about MAKIA, karya kake yi !!! It is because the Federal government has neglected the airport as part of thier effort to see the end of Northern Nigeria, go and confirm the last time they renovated the place, although am out of Nija presently, may be they decided to renovate it while am aware.

And now to the issue of going to Lagos, PHC and Abuja. You want to tell me that Kano is more volatile that those places? Haba Mallam, Kaji tsoron Allah Karya fa babu kyau ko a christianity. I know Abuja is relatively safer because of the sit of power inspite of that hoodlums don dey hijack the city, take a visit to area one or Berger junction from six or seven o'clock in the evening, you will see for your eyes, not even to mention places like Nyanya,Maraba, lugbe e.t.c. I will not even waste my time talking about lagos. I dont know much of PHC but from the news we are hearing, the city is not anything commendable.
im

 


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