Author Topic: Chriatian Muslim Dialogue  (Read 59109 times)

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Offline Barde

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Re: Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2004, 02:56:43 AM »
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mallam mydudu

to ga ansar farko. ka chai wa ya sanni banda ni Allah Ubangijinmu ya sanni. ?Bangani tambayarka ba na cewa mai ya banbantar da ne a hade da bayarabe ko ibo ko za ka iya fahintar da ne ga wannan tanbayar taka? A sha`anin kin nuna kai na ga wanan nauran zamani bari in baka labari. ?Wato `yan shekaru baya (kamar shekaru 5 haka) wani amini na dan bauch daga wata baban iyali (ba zan ba da sunan sa ba) ya karbi Isa Almasihu ya zama kirsta wato ingayama sai da ya bar bauchi `yan gidan su suka ke shi. ?Wato sanu sanu sai kaduna tai mai zafi sai eko nama daqi inna sai binsa akayi gaskiya sai da ya bar niajiriya gabadaya. ?Ina ne ina bada shadar ko wa neke? Na san abunda wasu za su gwada yemin ko iyali na? ?Kasan Ungogo? kawyemu na ungogo local govt.

I like your honesty and belief that both christians and muslims should acknowledge the existence of each other, although I am not sure of what you mean about the one not threatening the existence of the other, this you may need to explain a bit more

You are quite rite to say the christian God is different from the one of the muslims, here is an extraction on a study paper of the difference. ?I am not puting this here to offend any one so if any one finds it offensive i apologise, however please comment and give clarity on areas you think there has been a misinterpretation or misunderstanding.
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A. Belief in Allah

'Say: He is Allah. the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him.' (Surah 112, Al-Ikhlas, verses 1-4)

Most important to Muslims is the belief that Allah is One, Almighty, All-powerful, beyond comparison. The Bible too confirms that truth (Deut. 6:4). However, the concept of the name 'Allah' in Christianity is different from that of Islam in two areas:

i) The origin and meaning of the word

While Arab Christians view the name 'Allah' as a common name for the divine (i.e. 'God' in English, 'Theos' in Greek, 'Eloah' in Hebrew and 'Alaha' in Aramaic), Arab and Orthodox Muslims consider it as the very personal name of God allegedly revealed to Muhammad in the Quran. This view contradicts the Bible. According to Exodus 3:15, the eternal (personal) name of God is 'Yahweh'. It is never translated as 'Allah' in any Arabic Bible. The personal name of God is either kept as 'Yahweh' or translated into to 'Rrab' ('Adonai' in Hebrew, 'Kyrios' in Greek and 'LORD' in English). 'Yahweh' is never mentioned in the Quran nor does it appear in the Hadith. Therefore, Christians and Jews refused to accept him as a prophet based on Deuteronomy 18:20, where 'Yahweh' said, '...a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.' 'Allah' is not known as a common or personal name for the divine in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, the languages the Bible was first revealed in. Linguists and experts in Semetic languages are not sure if 'Allah' is a contraction of 'al-ilah' (the-god), a transliteration of 'alaha' (the-god) in Syriac or a derivation from the Babylonian 'Enlil'. There are about twenty different views as to the derivation of the name 'Allah.' The most probable is that the root is 'ilah', the past participle form, on the measure fi'al, from the verb 'ilaho' (to worship), to which this article was prefixed to indicate the supreme object of worship.' (Muheet-el.Muheet, dictionary) According to the opinion of some Muslim theologians it is infidelity (kufr) to hold that the word has any derivation whatever! But history establishes beyond the shadow of a doubt that even the pagan Arabs, before Muhammad's time, knew their chief god by the name of 'Allah' and in a sense, proclaimed his unity. (Ibn Hisham, earliest biographer of Muhammad, Sirat, Part II., p. 27) Centuries before Muhammad the Arabian Kaaba, or temple at Mecca was called 'Beit-Allah', the house of God, and not 'Beit-el-Alihet', the house of idols or gods.

ii) Allah and Yahweh God have different attributes

The description of Allah in the Quran is deistic. He is completely separate from his creation. The central Christian teaching of God's entrance into the world or of any sort of human fellowship with him is totally absent in Islam.

'The thunder hymneth His praise and (so do) the angels for awe of Him. He launcheth the thunderbolts and smiteth with them whom He will while they dispute concerning Allah, and He is mighty in wrath' (Surah 13, Al-Rad, verse 13)

This verse is a good introduction to the study of Allah's attributes; it expresses the effect Allah's attributes are intended to have and do have on His worshippers. Through fear of death and terror of Allah's mighty power the pious Muslim is all his life subject to bondage. In contrast Biblical Christianity teaches to respect God, to be in awe of him and to obey him joyfully out of thankfulness for what he has done in Jesus. The most common division of Allah's attributes are: Isam-ul-Jalaliyah and Isma-ul-Jemaliyah, terrible attributes and glorious attributes. The former are more numerous and more emphasised than the latter, not only in the Quran but in tradition and in daily life. The net total of the moral attributes is only found in two verses, which mention that Allah is Holy and Truthful in the Muslim sense of those words. God is only called once 'the Holy' in the Quran (Surah 59). Unlike in the Bible the term does not signify moral purity or perfection, 'just the complete absence of anything that would make him less than he is.' (Beidhawi) The Arabic word 'tahir' is only used in the Quran to define outward purity of the body. The Biblical idea of moral purity and utter separation from sin as a prerequisite to approaching God is unknown to the vocabulary in the Quran. Both concepts are of doubtful significance in Muslim theology while they are found throughout the Bible. What a contrast is found in it where God himself is at least 29 times described as holy. (Lev.11:44,45, 19:2, 21:8, Joshua 24:19, etc.) At least 8 times God is mentioned as being the truth. (Genesis 24:27, Exodus 34:6, etc.) While the God of the Bible is called 'just' at least 5 times (Deut. 32:4, Job 4:17, etc.) this attribute is completely missing in the account of the Quran. 'El Adl' - The Just. is only put in the list of his 99 names as found outside the Quran in traditions. The word 'Adl', Justice, occurs twelve times only in the Quran and is never used of the righteous acts of God and only once (Surah 5:115) of His words. In every other case it refers to human equity or faithfulness (Surah 4: 128). It seems Allah does not say about himself that he possesses justice as an attribute. Unlike the Biblical concept of God being inherently good (Psalm 34:8) Allah can therefore do whatever he pleases, be it good or bad. Another attribute of Allah is 'El-Hak,' the Truth. (Surah 22:62) Unlike in the Bible the Islamic concept of truth depends on the situation. According to tradition, a lie is justifiable in three cases: 'To reconcile those who quarrel, to satisfy one's wife and in case of war' (Sur. 16:106. El Hidayah, Vol. IV., p.81).

The Quran gives the reader in a measure a correct picture of God's power as displayed in nature but it has to say very little about his justice and holiness. Consequently the Islamic picture of the nature, origin, consequences and remedy of sin is almost non-existent. Sin, according to the Quran, (Surahs 4:30, 2:80, etc.) is a willful violation of known law or a conscious act committed against known law; wherefore sins of ignorance are not numbered in the catalogue of crimes. Out of this understanding great and small sins were distinguished. Some Muslim commentators say there are seven great sins: idolatry, murder, false charge of adultery, wasting the substance of orphans, usury, desertion from Jihad, and disobedience to parents. Others say there are seventeen, still others catalogue seven hundred! Small sins are regarded with utter carelessness and no qualm of conscience. Lying, deception, anger, lust and such like are all smaller and lighter offences; all these will be 'forgiven easily' if only men keep clear from great sins. The most common word used in the Quran for sin is 'thanib'. Another common term used for sin is 'haram' (forbidden). It indicates that nothing is right or wrong by nature, but only becomes such if Allah says so. What he forbids is sin, even if he forbade what seems to the human conscience right and lawful. What Allah allows is not sin and cannot be sin at the time he allows it, though it may have been before or after. (E.g.: Muttah, 4:28, the marriage of convenience still practised by Shias today, direction of prayer, 2:119, 2:145, number of daily prayers, 30:17, 11:116, drinking of alcohol, 2:216, 5:92 etc.) Muslims are forbidden to worship anyone but Allah and yet the same Allah punished Satan for not being willing to worship Adam (Surah 2:28-31) He reveals truth to his prophets, but also abrogates it, changes the message, or makes them forget it. (2:105) This practice is utterly opposed to the idea of God's immutability and truth. Allah is not subject to an absolute moral standard. He can do what he pleases. He mocks and deceives (Surahs 8:29, 3:53, 27:51, 86:15, 16:4, 14:15, 9:51)

Muhammed-al-Burkawi says: '...if all the infidels became believers and all the wicked pious he would gain nothing. And if all believers became infidels it would not cause Allah loss.' It is therefore no wonder that the Quran has no word for 'conscience'. The lack of all distinction between the ceremonial and moral law comes out most of all in the traditional sayings of the prophet. These sayings, we must remember, have nearly equal authority with the Quran itself. Take two examples:

'Allah's Messenger (peace_be_upon_him) said, 'A dirham which a man knowingly receives in usury is more serious than thirty-six acts of fornication.' Ibn Abbas's version adds that he said, 'Hell is more fitting for him whose flesh is nourished by what is unlawful.' (Ahmad and Daraqutni transmitted it. Bayhaqi transmitted in Shu'ab al-Iman on the authority of Ibn Abbas.)

'Allah's Messenger (peace_be_upon_him) said, 'Usury has seventy parts, the least important being that a man should marry his mother.' (Abdullah ibn Hanzalah; Abdullah ibn Abbas narrated it in Mishkat al-Masabih, Hadith number 2825)

Sin, according to Islam, is after all a matter of minor importance. It is the repetition of the creed that counts, and not the reformation of character. The repetition of the 'Kalima' makes one a true believer, so much so that if one says it accidentally or by compulsion, it would make them a Muslim. It seems that Allah does not appear bound by any standard of justice.

Allah is also described as 'El Awwal', the first, 'El-Akhir', the last, 'El-Dhabir', the substance and 'El-Batin', the essence. These four titles are known as the mother of the attributes, being regarded as fundamental and all-comprehensive. All four occur together in Surah 57:3 which makes it a great favourite among the Sufis, the mystics of Islam. With it they justify their pantheistic thoughts that God is the inside and the outside of everything. He is the phenomena (Dhahir) and the power behind the phenomena (Batin). In that the Sufis agree completely with the Hindu followers of the Vedanta school. There is only one verse, Surah 24:35, in which Allah is described as seemingly dependent on or indebted to something outside of himself. No Muslim really understands the meaning of it.

Unlike the Quran in the Bible we are asked to look at God's Oneness in terms of uniqueness rather then simply as a numerical unity. The Biblical understanding of God's Oneness can also be defined as Multiplicity within Unity, (Isaiah 46:16, 1 Timothy 3:16) a very common phenomena in creation too. (Time = past, present, future, universe = space, matter, time, nature = incredible diversity yet harmonious unity). Man has one mind, which is capable of thinking thoughts and expressing them in words. Mind, thoughts and words are one yet not exactly the same. No one can say that God has no Mind that expresses itself in Thoughts and Words. God in Mind and Thoughts and Words is one God and He never claimed that there would be two other gods beside Him or that He, the numerically One God, would reveal Himself in three parts or modes! The Unity of God in Christianity is truly representative of the Mind of God (or God the Father), His Thoughts, (or God the Holy Spirit) and His Word (God the Son). All are of the same divine essence, coequally and coeternally God, yet they have different functions.

As Christians grew in numbers the need for protection against false teachings arose. Therefore, Tertullian, a leader of the early church, summarised the biblical teaching on the nature of God by introducing the word 'Trinity' at the end of the 2nd century after the birth of Christ (AD). It is derived from the Latin 'trinitas,' being a combination of the words 'tri' for 'three' and 'unitas' for 'unity.' The Church adopted the doctrine of the Trinity at the council of Nizea in 325 and in its final form at the council of Constantinople in 381. (See also, 'The Illustrated Bible Dictionary' by F.F. Bruce, IVP Leicester, 1962, 'Trinity') The Christians definition of Trinity is based on the Bible and expressed in the Athenasian Creed as: 'We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding (mixing up) the Persons; nor dividing the Substance (Essence)' The word 'Person' is here used in the sense of 'self with a particular function.' ('The Illustrated Bible Dictionary' by F.F. Bruce, IVP Leicester, 1962, see 'person') It has to be stated emphatically that Christians do not worship three gods but one God because each member of the Godhead, God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, in some sense indwells the other, without diminishing the full personhood of each. The essential unity of the Godhead, then, is found both in their inmost equality of divine characteristics and also in the intensely personal unity that comes from mutual indwelling. Thus when Jesus died at the cross, God did not cease to exist but was separated from himself regarding the relationship within the Trinity not regarding his essence. To think that God gave up a perfect relationship for a time shows how great his love towards us is!

The main stream of Christianity throughout the world believes in one God, the Holy Trinity. It is indeed a mystery, as God Himself is. Many attributes of Him are accepted, yet are simply not fully comprehensible to the human mind. We all accept that God has no beginning, yet do we understand this? 'Impossible!' the sceptic cries out, yet true. Then why should it be such a problem if there is some aspect of God's essential nature (his Trinitarian existence) which is difficult for us to grasp? C.S. Lewis, professor of Medieval and Renaissance literature at Cambridge University said: 'If Christianity was something we were making up, of course we could make it easier. But it is not. We cannot compete, in simplicity, with people who are inventing religions. How could we? We are dealing with Fact. Of course anyone can be simple if he has no facts to bother about.' ('Mere Christianity', Macmillan Company, New York, 1943, page 145)

The Trinity alone answers difficult questions about the nature of God:

'How could God have been self sufficient and loving before the creation of angels and of the earth?' Since true love needs an object to whom it can give, if the Trinity of God did not exist, there would have been a time when he was incomplete, being unable to have the attribute of self giving love. This can not be true because God has always been and always will be perfect.

'Is God selfish?' Since love is described as having '...no envy;...no high opinion of itself,....no pride;...no thought for itself...(1 Corinthians 13: 4-5) some unbelievers, like John Stuart Mill, Mark Twain or Pablo Picasso have come to the conclusion that God is utterly selfish. They say that by asking us to worship nobody else but God, he himself commits the sin of seeking glory for himself only for which he condemns man. Bible believing Christians find the answer to this apparent contradiction in the Trinitarian nature of God. There he shares his glory among himself.

'Is God limited?' Of course that can not be but he who thinks of God as an absolute unity where there is no room for multiplicity at all, is forced to believe in a god who does not know himself. Self-knowledge demands a distinction, a multiplicity, between knowledge and the one who acquires it. Self-consciousness, the recognition of a creature by itself as a 'self' can only exist in contrast with an 'other', a something which is not the self. Only a Trinitarian concept of God allows for such a vital distinction.




Let me start by apologising for sending a very long post, it's not my fault am just pushed to the wall, hope you guys will bear with me.

Mallam

I don't want you to have the impression that am runnung away from the issues you raised about Allah (Subhanahu wata'ala). For that, lets suspend the issue of shariah for now.

I don't understand what you were trying to say on the meaning and origin of the word. So you need to go straight to the point for  me to know whether i will be able to answer you.

I think it is pertinent for me to quote what Allah has said about himself, hear him

"Allah, none has the right to be worshipped but he, (the ever living,the one who sustains and protects all that exists). Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes him. To him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth
who is he that can intercede with him except with his permission? He knows what happens to them (his creatures) in this world, and what will happen to them in the hereafter. And they will never compass anything of his knowledge except that he wills. His kursi extends over the heavens and the eath, and he feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. and he is the most high, the most great".(2.255). see also 59:23-24.

You said that the net total of Allah's attribute is only found in two verses, does it really matter how many times it is been mentioned? if it does, why then as you said trinity cannot be found in the bible? (both new and old testaments)

How can you say moral purity and utter separation from sin is unknown to the vocabulary of the qur'an? when it is mentioned in surah 23:1-6, infact the whole chapter is named after al-muminun (The Believers) that is to show you the importance moral purity in islam. so i dont know where you got your facts.

Does it really matter where al-Adl is found? whether qur'an or hadith is okay for us as Allah says in surah 4:170 and i quote,
"O mankind! verily, there has come to you the messenger Muhammad (saw) with the truth from your lord. So believe in him, it is better for you. But if you disbelieve, cetainly to Allah belongs alll that is in the heavens and the earth. Allah is ever All-knowing,All wise". quran (4:170). True muslims accepts anything that comes from Muhammad (saw) so far it has been accurately narrated.

You said Allah does not have justice as his attribute, if i may ask you, what does this verse (4:124) talking about? and i quote,
"Whoever does righteous good deeds, male or female, and is a believer, such will enter paradise and not the least injustice, even to the size of a speck on the back of a date-stone, will be done to them". qur'an (4:124). and another one says and i quote,
"So whoever does good equal to the weight of an atom shall see it and who so ever does evil equal to the weight of an atom shall see it". (qur'an 99:7-8).

I don't know the kind of justice Mallam is looking other than this, maybe you have a different meaning for justice. We believe is only Allah that can admit his creatures into the paradise according to the creatures's deeds, our God is not the kind of God that you beleive in, though he created everything and yet he does not have the right to admit or reserve a sit for somebody next to him on the throne as mentioned in (Mathew 20:20-23). (remember trinity).

Allah ofcourse can do as he wishes, he punishes a disbeliever and admits a believer into the paradise as stated in the qur'an 89:6-13 and 27-30. You will agree with me that this attribute of God is also mentioned in the bible paslm 80:4-5 and i quote,

"oh lord God almighty, how long will you be angry and reject our prayers? you feed us with sorrow and made us drink tears by the bucketful". (psalm 80:4-5). Also in Exodus 11:1, God sent one more disaster to Pharoah and the land of Egypt. I want Mallam to tell ?me whether sending a disaster is a good or a Bad thing. The number of such verses are endless i can go on and on.

I will be very grateful if Mallam will quote the catalogue of 700 sins as he said.

Allah as the creator of the heaven, earth and whatever is between them has the right to say this is a sin or not. How can you bring in human conscience when you are talking of Allah's will? as stated in the qur'an and i quote,

"It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and his Messenger (SAW) have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and his Messenger, he has indeed strayed into a plain error". (qur'an 33:36).

see (Genesis 2:16-17 and 3:5). Just imagine the relationship between a slave and his master.

You also made mention of Muttah, it is not only a marriage of convenience but also a temporary marriage practiced by discples of prophet when they are away from their families for long time and they cannot control their sexual desires. As stated in qur'an 4:28.

Don't really understand what you were trying to point out in verses 2:119 and 2: 145.

Why did you only mentioned qur'an 30:17 and ignored 30:18 ? please go to the verse am sure it will clear your mind on the number of daily prayers. You also mentioned something on alcoholic drinks, you need to go and study islam very well before you start writting about it, the qur'an was revealed in parts, when the prophet (SAW) started preaching, all the commandments were not revealed at once, considering the kind of activities people were doing at that time, he did not tell them to stop everything at once, if for example, they are drinking 12 bottles of alcohol in a day, he will start by telling them to drink like six bottles daily, then with time he will tell them to stop completely. That is what happened in qur'an 2:219 and 5:92. Wallahu a'alam.

You also said how can Allah punish satan for not been willing to worship Adam? Okay read about the following verses, Allah said to the angels.

"verily, I am going to place generations after generations on the earth, they said will you place there in those who will make mischief and shed blood while we glorify you with praises,thanks and sanctify you?. He (Allah) said:I know that which you do not know, and He taught Adam all the names ?(of everything),then he showed them to the angels and said, Tell me the names of these if you are truthfull.They said glory be to you, we have no knowledge except what you have taught us, verily, it is you,the all-knower,the all-wise.He said, O Adam! inform them of the names, and when he had informed them, He said: Did i not tell you that i know ghaib (unseen) in the heavens and the earth, and i know what you have been concealing?" (qur'an 2:30-33), Allah is showing one of his attributes here, the knowledge of the unseen, and he has the right to command his creatures to do what he feels like.

You mistakenly mentioned 2:105 instead of 2:106. Look at what Allah is saying, "know you not that Allah is able to do all things?" That is the message Allah is trying to put accross to his creatures.

Surahs 8:29,3:53, 27:51, 86:15, 16:4, 14:15, 9:15 (eventhough some are irrelevant to what you were trying to say). Allah is narrating to us how he dealt with various nations that were plotting, mocking and assuming to be deceiving the prophets that were sent to them, that he (Allah) is more powerful and more knowledgeable in everything they are assuming to be experts in. As stated in qur'an 86:15-17 and i quote

"Verily, they are but plotting a plot, and i too am planning a plan, so give a respite to the disbelievrs; deal gently with them" (qur'an 86: 15-17), These are just some few examples .

We regard whatever the Prophet (SAW) says and does is from Allah, go to qur'an 53 for more details.

Who told you that sin, is of minor importance? He (Allah) just
gives an opportunity for repentance as stated in surah 9:118. Read it claerfully am sure it will clear your wrong impression.

Kalima alone does not make one a true believer as stated in qur'an 2:2-5 and Sahih al- Bukhari vol 1,Hadith 7. I don't where Mallam got his wrong assertions.

Don't know much about the sufis, talkless of their pantheistic belief, all what i know is that Allah is the first (nothing is before him),the most High (nothing is above him),the most Near (nothing is nearer to him),the Last(nothing is after him) and he is the All-knower of everything,(qur'an 57:3). Not the kind of God you are worshipping who admitted that he was not good, when he was addressed as a good teacher as stated and i quote,

"Why do you call me good, Jesus asked? only God is truely good". (Mark 11:18) (Remember trinity). For more information about who is Allah refer to qur'an 57:3-7.

Now, to your God as been stated in the bible.

According to Mallam, Christians were asked to look at God's oneness interms of uniqueness. Isiah 46:16 is missing in my bible and the last part of 1 Thimothy 3:16 says and i quote,
 
"He was taken up into the heaven" wait a minute and ponder about the statement (remember trinity).

what kind of uniqueness is Mallam talking about? when the God he is worshipping, felt thirsty as stated in John 20:28. Also God cried, seeking for help from another God, as stated in Mathew 27:46 and i quote

"Eli,Eli, lema sabachthani"? meaning My God, My God, why have you foresaken me? (Mathew 27:46). We all know that these two verses (john 20:28 and Mathew 27:46) are among the commonest attribute of mankind. Tell me how is he unique? Remember trinity.

Mallam,find below lists of how God was described in your bible and let me know your responses on each and every verse. I don't want to stress my freinds, cose the post is already long that is why am cutting down the number of such verses but the lists are endless.

1. Jacob wrestles with God (Genesis 22:30).

2. Smoke from God's nostril and devouring fire from his mouth(2 Sam 22:9).

3. Brutality and showing no mercy on the part of God, ordering that there shouldn't be any treaty. (Deutronomy 7:2).
Go and read about the treaty of Hudaybiyya.

4. The lord will bring a terrible curse on a whole nation and cause its people to experience greater terror (Isiah 7:17). Is your God a terrorist?

5. ?God rested and refreshed (Exodus 31:17). Your God became exhausted after creating the heaven and the earth. What a unique attribute. See qur'an 55:29, it will give you an idea of a unique attribute.

6. God repents for making Saul king of Israeel (1Samuel 15:10&30).

7. God behaves like a drunk(Psalms 78:65). Waiyya zhubillah.

8. 1Timothy 6:16 states and i quote "He alone can never die, and he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him. No one has ever seen him, nor ever will. To him be honor and power forever" (1Timothy 6:16). Remember trinity?
 
9. Mark 11:12-14. Am still appealling to my freinds to allow me Narrate this short story. According to the book of Mark chapter 11 verses 12- 14, Jesus curses a fig tree.
"The next morning as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus felt hungry. He noticed a fig tree a little way off that was in full leaf, so he went over to see if he could find any figs on it. But there were only leaves because it was too early in the season for fruit. Then jesus said to the tree, May no one ever eat your fruit again! And the disciples heard him say it."Remeber trinity?

The point i want to make here is that Jesus(remember trinity), was completely ignorant of the season, he taught he could get something to eat on the tree. Remember Genesis?God created everything and yet, he felt hungry and wasted his time going to a fruitless tree, and after that he became angry to the extent that he cursed the tree.

Lastly, i want Mallam or any christian to tell me, are these the unique attribute of God revealed through the holy spirit or are they writtings of people who do not have a proper understanding of God?. Am sorry for what i have said but am paying you back. I also need your own defination of God, may be it will help us understand each other.

I will like my brothers to correct me incase i mistakenly quote or say something that is incorrect.

Barde
im

Offline mallm

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: Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2004, 09:35:29 PM »
Barde

Its good to see you are begining to agree to a more sequential approach (even though we have jumped the issue of violence in the name of God). And no your long reply is most welcomed (that is if I am included in the apology), we should expect that in discussions of this nature, it is safer than reckless statements that are baseless and lacking in any type of methodological study.

So let us look at what you are saying.  You say you do not understand the portion dealing with the origin of the word Allah in my posting?  Well it is just that a history based on historical fact on where the word Allah originated from references have been given which you can also check.  So do you agree with that? If not please let me have you own study on the origin of the word.  This is a very important aspect because it will give perspective to the discussion.

Now on the matter of the Trinity you still do not seem to understand what the word description is I have tried and broken it down as best as I can, I will continue though.  Now I have said it (Trinity) as a word is not in the bible it is a word to describe the the concept of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.  And this concept is found from the very first book of the bible.  Let me put it this way for you you have a mind, a body and a spirit right?  When people talk to you do they refer to the part of you they are talking to or to Barde?  Now when did your mind, body and spirit come into existence is it when you were born and named or was it upon conception by your mother?  I think you should ask youself these questions and answer them.

I find it interesting that you make an issue out of the fact that the word Trinity does not exist in the bible yet listen to you (posting dated 7/3/04) "You said that the net total of Allah's attribute is only found in two verses, does it really matter how many times it is been mentioned? if it does, why then as you said trinity cannot be found in the bible? (both new and old testaments)"  Let me tell you why the number of times Allah's attributes are mentined is important.  The number of times you call a person is an indication of how important/urgent a matter is.  If a matter is important it will be stressed over and over again it will not just be mentioned once off.  That is why it is important to observe the number of times a thing is repeated.  I find interesting that you find nothing wrong is an attribute which is important in describing Allah appearing in a very limited way in the quran, but find it strange that a word used to describe a biblical concept does not appear in the bible.

You said and I quote "Does it really matter where al-Adl is found? whether qur'an or hadith is okay for us as Allah says in surah 4:170..........True muslims accepts anything that comes from Muhammad (saw) so far it has been accurately narrated." Carefully look at what you said, but before I go on, I should enlighten you to the fact that christians all over the world believe that the bible is the only book in the world that contains the undisputed word of God, and therefore only its contents can be made reference to as authoritative word of God NOTHING ELSE!  Look at the first part of the qoute, you make so much of an issue out of the word Trinity not being in the bible, yet you find nothing wrong if al-Adl is not in the quran and you believe and accept it.  May I ask you then how many books did Mohammed (SAW) get from Allah? Why are you bringing the hadith into the frame?  Is the hadith the word of God? if so why is it not in the quran but a seperate book? Should we then take it that Allah gave two seperate books?  And I agree with you about the importance of true and accurate interpretation of holy books, however any interpretation that can not give us references with the relevant holy book must be veiwed with some suspicion, because we must remember that interpretations are done by men.  Who does the interpretation the hadith? the prophet (SAW) or men? What do you believe in as the word of Allah? the quran or the hadith? If it is the quran then show me where in the quran used the term al-Adl for Allah.

I qoute you again "You said Allah does not have justice as his attribute, if i may ask you, what does this verse (4:124) talking about? and i quote, "Whoever does righteous good deeds, male or female, and is a believer, such will enter paradise and not the least injustice, even to the size of a speck on the back of a date-stone, will be done to them". qur'an (4:124). and another one says and i quote,  "So whoever does good equal to the weight of an atom shall see it and who so ever does evil equal to the weight of an atom shall see it". (qur'an 99:7-8).  Look at both your qoutes there is non that says categorically clear that Allah is just. Your qoutes do not describe being just as an inherent attribute of Allah but just tells us that Allah will be just on a case by case basis. Look at the first qoute, it starts with "Whoever........" this is a condition and goes on to say "such will......." this is what is termed a reward or consequence statement.  Look at the second qoute the same applies condition statement "So whoever does........" reward or consequence statement "...shall see it......".  There is no point or indication that Allah is inherently Just which is quite the opposite in the bible where God is clearly and categorically refered to as a just God therefore leaving no one in doubt.

This is from my posting "Another common term used for sin is 'haram' (forbidden). It indicates that nothing is right or wrong by nature, but only becomes such if Allah says so. What he forbids is sin, even if he forbade what seems to the human conscience right and lawful. What Allah allows is not sin and cannot be sin at the time he allows it, though it may have been before or after. (E.g.: Muttah, 4:28, the marriage of convenience still practised by Shias today, direction of prayer, 2:119, 2:145, number of daily prayers, 30:17, 11:116, drinking of alcohol, 2:216, 5:92 etc.) "

I qoute you "You also made mention of Muttah, it is not only a marriage of convenience but also a temporary marriage practiced by discples of prophet when they are away from their families for long time and they cannot control their sexual desires. As stated in qur'an 4:28.  And again you said ".....all the commandments were not revealed at once, considering the kind of activities people were doing at that time, he did not tell them to stop everything at once, if for example, they are drinking 12 bottles of alcohol in a day, he will start by telling them to drink like six bottles daily, then with time he will tell them to stop completely.

Now look at what you said closely and think about the implications carefuly, does it not bother you that prophets of a Holy Allah will indulge in that kind of activity (I suggest you also look up the word temporary)?  Look at the second qoute I made from your posting, even in mortal human terms laws are not put in place gradually, does it not make you wonder how a just Allah that hates sin will on the one hand have a sliding scale of justice, while also permiting sin for as long as it is less than the previous? is sin not just sin? is wrong not just wrong?

The catalogu of the 700 sins is of no importance to the discussion it was used as a reference to butress a point.

I qoute you "Don't know much about the sufis, talkless of their pantheistic belief...."  What you are making reference to here is information provided to you which is a historical fact I am not surprised you are not aware of it but I hope you have learnt something that will also raise your curiosity and encourage you to search for truth.

This is from your qoute "Why do you call me good, Jesus asked? only God is truely good". (Mark 11:18) (Remember trinity). Yes I know our discussion on Trinity.  My understanding of why you are making this reference is that you are questioning if we say Jesus is God why then does Jesus say only God is truly good. First of all you are wrong with your reference you must be refering to Mark 10:18. The start of the verse tells you that somebody asked a question and was refering to Jesus as good and the verse is Jesus's response to the question.  So what was the question?  the question was ..."Good Teacher, what shall I do to get eternal life?" (Mark 10:17).  Now remember as I told you and also I also qouted verses for you in the bible, christains believe in only ONE God!  You have tried and pushed a particular veiw point that is not supported in the bible, which is to try and imply that christians are saying there is more than one God.  Read again my posting covering the Holy Trinity please!!!!! Mark 10:18 Jesus was challenging the man's faulty perception of good as something measure by human acheivement (Mat 19:17; Luke 18:19; John 5:41-44).  No one is good absolutely perfect, except God alone, the true Source and Standard of goodness.  The man needed to see himself in the context of God's perfect character.  Jesus's response did not deny His own deity but was a veiled claim to it.  The man, unwittingly calling Him "good" needed to perceive Jesus' true identity.  If you noticed, the man later dropped the word "good" verse 20.

I noticed once again you conveniently qouted only the last line of the verse. Your qoute of 1Timothy 3:16 "He was taken up into the heaven" wait a minute and ponder about the statement (remember trinity).  1Timothy 3:16 reads: Beyond ALL QUESTIONS (my emphasis), the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in BODY (my emphasis) was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world was taken in glory.  I see the last line is your concern when you read the whole verse in context you will see that the last line was refering to the resurection of Jesus.  So I do not get your point except if you are trying to bring in the ressurection which I will suggest we wait for another time and another thread.

You wrote and I qoute "what kind of uniqueness is Mallam talking about? when the God he is worshipping, felt thirsty as stated in John 20:28. Also God cried, seeking for help from another God, as stated in Mathew 27:46 and i quote
 
"Eli,Eli, lema sabachthani"? meaning My God, My God, why have you foresaken me? (Mathew 27:46). We all know that these two verses (john 20:28 and Mathew 27:46) are among the commonest attribute of mankind. Tell me how is he unique? Remember trinity."

In the first place as I said I am begining to feel there is a delibrate attempt on your part to misqoute the bible completely or else where did you get your qoute on John 20:28? John 20:28 reads: Thomas said to him "My Lord my God."  So Barde where did you get your thirst story? On Mathew 27:46, you have touched on one of the central themes of christainity for here we see God love for mankind and His desire to save man.  You see in christainity, Jesus laid His life for us sinners His life was never taken away, because it was the plan all along.  Lets start from verse 45 Note that before Jesus uttered those words, darkness came over all the land. It is in this period of darkness that Jesus became the Sin-offering for the world (John1:29; Rom.5:8; 2Cor.5:21; 1Peter 2:24; 1Peter 3:18) and remember God is Holy as far as we christians are concerned and our bible continously reminds us of that, He can not look at sin no matter the size, it goes against the Holyness of God.  Now it is at this point when Jesus took over the sin of the world that God turned away (seperated from Jesus), near the end when Jesus could not bear the seperation with the Father, He cried out Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? (My God My God why have You forsaken Me?).  Jesus sensed a seperation from the Father He had never known, for in becoming sin, the Father had to turn judicially from His Son (Rom. 3:25-26).  So do not use this passage in you case on the Trinity if anything, this verse only confirms it futher.  Remember my advise to you please read contextually and cross reference.

You wrote and I qoute "Mallam,find below lists of how God was described in your bible and let me know your responses on each and every verse......"

1. Jacob wrestles with God (Genesis 22:30).

ANS:  Firstly there is nothing like Gen 22:30 I suppose you are refering to Gen 32:22-28.  Please note that from verse 24 the wrestle was with a man who appeared out of nowhere.  It is also significant to note that this fight was at night and Jacob was also seized with fear and uncertainty.  You must also note that Jacob never lost the fight until an extraordinary supernatural act was evoked to gain advantage and the fight lasted till day break.  This wrestle was with an Angel of God (see also Hosea 12:4) and because the Angel of God is God's representative he bears God's name (see also Exodus 23:21) and that is why you have in verse 28 ".......you have struggled with God.....".  Also note that this struggle was not just physical but was also spiritual.
 
2. Smoke from God's nostril and devouring fire from his mouth(2 Sam 22:9).

ANS: I wonder if you understand what an attribute is.  Again your qoute says nothing.  This is just a description by David of God's anger over His enemies and it continues with what He (God) will do to them.  This does not describe God at all, so I do not see your point.
 
3. Brutality and showing no mercy on the part of God, ordering that there shouldn't be any treaty. (Deutronomy 7:2).
Go and read about the treaty of Hudaybiyya.

ANS:The command to destroy them totally should be seen in this light.  Firstly we know that the wages of sin is death and these nations that are being spoken about here were known for their sins (see also Deutronomy 9:4-5)  Studies of their religion, literature, archeological remains reveal that they were the most morally depraved culture on the earth at that time.  Secondly they persisted in their hatred of God (see also Deuteronomy 7:10), had they repented God would have spared them as He spared the Ninevites who repented at the preaching of Jonah, repentance was out of the question for these people. Thirdly the Canaanites constituted a moral cancer (see also Deuteronomy 20:17-18; Num 33:55; Josh.23:12-13), one of them even a child left alive had the potential introducing idolatory and immorality which would spread.  You must understand that it is only God who knows the heart of men so He knows the future, the killing was not because He did not give them a chance, but He knew their heart and in His infinite wisdom acted accordingly.

4. The lord will bring a terrible curse on a whole nation and cause its people to experience greater terror (Isiah 7:17). Is your God a terrorist?
 
ANS: Yo see you determination to misqoute the bible has hardened your heart you are not even interested in checking your facts.  The verse contains judgement God is visiting Ahaz a branch of the house of David, for his iniquity. So I wonder how Gods warning of judgement can classify Him as a terrorist in islam.  Please read the whole chapter first.  Does not Allah also promise grave judgement in the quran? And about terrorism well I will leave you with that you know the rest.

5.  God rested and refreshed (Exodus 31:17). Your God became exhausted after creating the heaven and the earth. What a unique attribute. See qur'an 55:29, it will give you an idea of a unique attribute.

ANS: I see your conclusion of the verse is that God rested as you would rest again please read the chapter again note please the rest is symbolic and not God catching a nap or something.  Note that it was on the seventh day, this is the day that is considered the sabbath day by the Jews, on this day they do no work but is a day set aside to rest and worship and praise God.  I see you really do not know the meaning of attribute, how can you lack of study and investigation into a matter be a sign of lack of an attribute of God?
 
6. God repents for making Saul king of Israeel (1Samuel 15:10&30).

ANS: I think you meant 1 Samuel 15:11.  Here God had determined Sauls rejection and aquainted Samuel with it.  Repentance in God is not as it is in us - a change of mind NO! Here we see a change of method or dispensation.  He does not alter His will but wills an alteration.  See Genesis 6:6, 2 Samuel 24:16, Psalm 110:4, Jeremiah 18:7-10, Amos 7:3, Jonah 3:10 and 4:2.  Please read these references to understand your 8 word sentence which you are using as the basis of you ill informed notion.
 
7. God behaves like a drunk(Psalms 78:65). Waiyya zhubillah.
 
ANS: I suggest you read start from Ps 78:1-4 please note that it starts as a story in form of a parable. You should always as a rule find context please.  This is the Paslm o Asaph the speech is all figurative.  Here it is a way or likening the wake to the rise of a mighty man. Of course if you are to read it literally and out of context you get a different message and that is what I am trying to get to you.  You must contextualise each time you read the bible, go to the root of what is being said or else one would end up with a warped sense of interpretation like yours.  You have said in you posting Allah allows some level of promiscuity as shown when some prophets were involved in it, I sincerely will be waiting for your explanation on that.

8. 1Timothy 6:16 states and i quote "He alone can never die, and he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him. No one has ever seen him, nor ever will. To him be honor and power forever" (1Timothy 6:16). Remember trinity?

ANS: This does not contradict the Trinity, I have written alot about the Trinity now, I think it is time you tell me based on all I have posted on the subject what you understand by the Trinity and stop this childish run aroun flinging same verses everytime yet not picking on what I have posted in that regard.  to me it appears it is not the whole picture you are interested in but just a statement you can read and interpret your own way without investigating what the statement means from the bible.  Let me give you a little background, early in his ministry Paul was convinced Christ will return soon.  Now near the end of his ministry he showed awareness that Christ might not return before he died and a desire to encourage Timothy to leave the timing of this great event up to the Lord.  Hence Paul stressed that God will bring about Christ's appearing in His own time.  So contrary to what you are trying to say that particular verse as qouted by you is refering to Christ's second coming (please note that King of Kings and Lord of Lords is the title of Christ see Rev 19:16)

9. Mark 11:12-14. Am still appealling to my freinds to allow me Narrate this short story. According to the book of Mark chapter 11 verses 12- 14, Jesus curses a fig tree.
"The next morning as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus felt hungry. He noticed a fig tree a little way off that was in full leaf, so he went over to see if he could find any figs on it. But there were only leaves because it was too early in the season for fruit. Then jesus said to the tree, May no one ever eat your fruit again! And the disciples heard him say it."Remeber trinity?

The point i want to make here is that Jesus(remember trinity), was completely ignorant of the season, he taught he could get something to eat on the tree. Remember Genesis?God created everything and yet, he felt hungry and wasted his time going to a fruitless tree, and after that he became angry to the extent that he cursed the tree.

ANS:  You are really fixated by the word Trinity.  I am glad verse after verse I have shown you the concept of the Trinity and you do not have anything to say about that or to disput instead you keep going back to the same things.  You have an insatiable appetite to want to decieve.  Let us see how ignorant you are, you say Jesus did not know the season.  It is a fact both historically and even presently that in Palestine (the area of the story) fig trees produced crops of small edible buds in March followed by th appearance of large green leaves in early april.  these early green "fruit" (buds) was common food for local peasants.  Eventually these "fruits" (buds) dropped off when the normal crop figs formed and ripen in late may june - the fig season.  So I hope you have learnt something, and have recognised how ignorant you are. I do not get the point you want to make on the Genesis part.  Do not feel bad about your ignorance please if you do not raise such points nobody will see them and give you the right information and you will remain ignorant.

Offline Barde

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Re: Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2004, 06:21:38 AM »
Mallam

You did not give me the biblical defination of God as requested. Endeavour to give me, then we continue from there.
im

Offline Eskimo

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Re: Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2004, 05:46:08 PM »
You see..that is why I respect pple like Waziri and myadudu.
They suspected since from the beginning that mallam is not ready for an intelligent and useful discourse. That is why he keeps mixing up topics. You camnt misguide whom Allah has guided.

Let us discuss issues one by one...This your attack on almighty Allah I really like it. Shall we stick to it...other issue then follow suit?

Here you are even doubting the authenticity of the source where Quran come from. Thanks to Allah!!! that means you already accepted it is not from a human being!!! (or atleaset we can see that from you writing...even if you dont mean it).

I still cant understand your position...You think some sort of devil is the source of Quran (may be disguising as the God)...or Is it that the Prophet authored it in the name of Arab HeadGod "Allah"?

please make yourself clear so that we can have an issue at stake..not just everything!
color=blue]NOBODY is PERFECT and I am NOBODY.[/color]

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Re: Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2004, 09:33:25 PM »
Barde

here is the definition of God, please understand that there is a difference between a definition and an attribute so do not go mentioning absence of attributes

God is the name of the Divine Being (please note God as used is the name in english this differs with language used for example arab christians will refer to Him in arabic as Allah). God is and he may be known.  God is not subject to scientific proof, He is a postulate of faith. God transcends all his creation, he can be known only in his self-revelation.  In His Being God is self-existing. While his creation is dependent on him, he is utterly independent of the creation. He not only has life, but he is life to his universe, and has the source of that life within himself. Please try and see the following references in the bible Exodus 34:6,7; Dueteronomy 6:4, 10:17; Numbers 16:22; Exodus 15:11, 33:19; Isaiah 44:6; Habakuk 3:6; Psalm 102:26; Job 34:12; Revelations 7:12

I atleast thought you would comment on the answers I have given to your questions and still insist on the definition, now you have it so lets continue (do you remember ...we are ready for him").  I would suggest that we be intelligent enough to restrict ourselves to the questions and answers we give.  For instance my reponse to your postings is always based on what you say or what you have asked, I do not just keep rambling in a disorganised manner.  You keep on asking questioning me on the Trinity but you have not said what it is with respect to my response on the Trinity you want answered, so I tend to give generally the same answers.  So read my answers and ask your questions based on my answers and your on researched knowledge of the subject matter. It will make the discussion more fruitful.
..................................................................................................

Eskimo!

Haba kai dan rudu ne!! I do not know what you want but lets start from the begining.  The very issue first post dealt with violence in the name of God (posted 21/2/04).  On that subject matter nobody comment however there were comments on some side issues. The second post by me again tried to draw attention to the first post i.e Violence in the name of God in the process mention was made of aspects of sharia (posted 28/2/04).  Myadudu in response to my post concluded that the concept of God in islam and christianity are disimilar (posted 28/2/04).  I responded to this in agreement and with a researched study of the subject matter on the christian God and muslim Allah (29/2/04). Then comments by various readers of the post and Barde posts (dated 2/3/04) his with questions which were aroused by the posting since then we have been discusing the Trinity and it is within the discussion that questions and answers are being raised. So what do you mean about focusing on one subject matter?

Eskimo no! no! no! I am not attacking your Allah pleaseeeee!  I am presenting a discussing that is questioning certain aspects of muslim beliefs, just as I have been questioned on aspects of christain beliefs and I am answering them with no problem.  Why are you offense if you have nothing to hide? or if you know what you belief is? You should welcome questions and also answer them. I am not attacking your Allah so stop being emotional!!

No one has touched on the authenticity of either the bible or the quran please go through all the postings.

We are current on discussing the Trinity as you can see but all that in the frame work of the christain God and muslim Allah.

Offline Maqari

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Re: Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2004, 02:18:08 PM »
Mallam
  i've followed  this thread from the begining on shear curiosity alone, and contrary to many of the participants in this discourse i do not care if u are a member of this forum or not, neither does your ethnic or religious back ground of any intrest to me , what does matter to Makari is intellectual integrity and the application of effective thought process in any conversation, two seprate entities that i find most of the posts in here to be in violatin of, i will make clear that although i was born a muslim and still remain one by name i do not practice nor agree with most religious theories ultimately because i find them excessively illogical, in fact i even doubt the existance of god/Allah himself , so what do i want right ? bravo !! what i want is not so far from what Eskimo asked you since the begining of this thread , start a thread and present your questions one after the other and lets discuss them, i promise you to counter and deflect any (and i emphasize "any" )belief or biblical theory you bring forth, naturally i try to refrain from discussing religion for i find people to strangely succumb to theories made thousands of years ago when protecting their religious beliefs, further more i often detect what bio-chemists term as MK ultra,a suggestive thinking methodology that causes one's perspective to remain constantly controlled,(something i wouldnt allow my self to experience) but as a person who spent a bulk of his life in the confines of the biggest islamic and arabic studies library( namely the Dar-al-fikr in  Cairo Egypt), and as a regular visitor to the cristian study section of New york's 5th Ave library ,best believe i have more than just ancient quotes to contribute to a an argument, so  im daring you to start a new thread ( this one is too crowded for me )  let u and I one on one  mano ? mano discuss religion,and brace yourself for a lesson in the faulty way the bible was written the human errors and lack of logic in many of the bible's scripts the involvemant of politics from the begining of the book to the end of it , the clumsy contradiction of the new testement to the old one, all the way down to the artistic generation of the jesus image itself, by this im not saying that the qur'an is free of similar caracteristics just a bit more precise and logical so Mr.Mallam lets GO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ps
 it will be to your advantage to first read and digest my post titled "AMIDST THE CONFUSION" in the general forum its a letter i once wrote to a christian frieand of mine, just so u can get a grasp of who u will be conversing with, good luck !  

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Re: Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2004, 08:36:20 PM »
Maqari

I agree with you that this is getting too long.  Did you go through my response to Eskimo.  I repeat we are currently on the issue of the Trinity.  I also see you are very intelligent, well schooled and well read that is good for you my friend. I also suggest you have a look at the Christain definition of God and I believe it will not be too different from that of islam.  On the issue of me throughing questions please the subject is Christain Muslim dialogue, I hope you understand it as different from questions and answers on christianity and islam.  The point is topic is not restricted and discussion is welcomed, this is not a challenge session but an attempt at discussing aspects of both faiths and raising questions on aspects we do not agree with or that confounds, so if you do have an area or issue that confounds you please feel free to put it forward I have put mine (may be a couple of them now), and Barde has put his (we are currently discussing his which is the Trinity and you can read his veiws from his postings and my explanations from my own postings).  You say there are errors and lack of logic in both the quran and the bible.  Well I am do not have a problem with your veiw, but the logic or sense anything makes to us depends on our biase and my friend everyone of us humans has a bias conciously or unconciously.

Thank you for the reference I did visit the thread interesting although I never finished it, however I never really got the jist of the matter.  You know they say that the best write ups are the simplest to read and understand, well maybe I was just too dumb (and I know the author is well read and intelligent).  But I will really enjoy your contribution and I like your idea of a new thread so please after you.  you should probably post an issue you think should be discussed.  I usually do not like the straight question and answer approach 'cos you find generally they are based on a lot of lack of knowledge, understanding, research etc and tends to create a you verses me thing rather than focusing on the issue.  You know based on my faith only God has full knowledge and wisdom so I will be erring (and it is a sin) if I present my self as the all knowing, that is why I prefer the study route then the presentation of findings and discussion/debate, that way wild allegations can be minimised and misconceptions or errors corrected.

Offline Eskimo

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Re: Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2004, 06:38:06 PM »
Malam ba rudu ba ne....just ka gane?
Now you ve made yourself clear.. I think we are ready to go.
Please let us be ready to accept reality and we should look into history and culture very well...because some christian belief as well as some islamic are borrowed directly from paganism and they come to stay as part of the religion.

You will be suprised may be if you find out that the book you are so fondly quoting from is no different from Illiad of Homer (a pre-christianity greek novel). and may be most of the beliefs that you are tryting to sell to us are just modifications of old Roman religion. Esp that trinity you are talking of.

Did you know that Trinity was introduced into Christianity shortly after 323 AD? or was it confirmed to be a doctrine? Trinity is a new invention in Christianity. Jews did not know anything about Trinity...may be they had worshipping false God. a Unitarian God!

THE TRINITY IDEA WAS INFUSED INTO CHRISTIANITY
THROUGH PAGAN GREEK PLATONIC THOUGHT

The Illustrated Bible Dictionary records: "The word Trinity is not found in the Bible. . . It did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century."
The New Catholic Encyclopedia admits that the Trinity "is not. . . directly and immediately the word of God."
The Encyclopedia of Religion And Ethics records: At first the Christian Faith was not Trinitarian. . . It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the New Testament and other early Christian writings."
L. L. Paine, professor of Ecclesiastical History acknowledged: "The Old Testament is strictly monotheistic. God is a single personal being. The idea that a trinity is to be found there . . . is utterly without foundation."
The Encyclopedia of Religion admits: "Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity."
The New Catholic Encyclopedia also admits: "The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament."
Jesuit Edmund Fortman wrote in his book, The Triune God: ". . . There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a Trinity within the Godhead. . . Even to see in the Old Testament suggestions or foreshadowings or 'veiled signs' of the trinity of persons, is to go beyond the words and intent of the sacred writers."
The Encyclopedia of Religion says: "Theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity."
The New Encyclopedia Britannica reports: "Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament."
The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology confirms: "The New Testament does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity."

Jesuit Fortman similarly states: "The New Testament writers. . . give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. . . Nowhere do we find any trinitarian doctrine of three distinct subjects of divine life and activity in the same Godhead."
Yale University professor E. Washburn Hopkins affirms in the Origin and Evolution of Religion: "To Jesus and Paul the doctrine of the trinity was apparently unknown; . . .they say nothing about it."
Historian Arthur Weigall records in The Paganism in Our Christianity: "Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word 'Trinity' appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord."

THE TRINITY IDEA WAS BORROWED FROM HEATHEN RELIGIONS

A Dictionary of Religious Knowledge records that many historians believe that the Trinity "is a corruption borrowed from the heathen religions, and ingrafted on the Christian faith."
Edward Gibbons's History of Christianity notes: "If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief."
Historian Will Durant observed: "Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. . . From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity."
Siegfried Morenz, in the book 'Egyptian Religion' notes: "The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians . . . These gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology."
James Hastings wrote in the Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics: "In Indian religion, e.g., we meet with the trinitarian group of Brahma, Siva, and Visnu; and in Egyptian religion with the trinitarian group of Osiris, Isis, and Horus. . . Nor is it only in historical religions that we find God viewed as a Trinity. One recalls in particular the Neo-Platonic views of the Supreme or Ultimate Reality. which is triadically represented."

The doctrine of the Logos and the Trinity received their shape from Greek Fathers, who. . . were much influenced, directly or indirectly, by the Platonic philosophy . . . That errors and corruptions crept into the Church from this source can not be denied."
The book entitled, The Church of the Fist Three Centuries acknowledges: "The doctrine of the Trinity was of gradual and comparatively late formation: . . . it had its origin in a source entirely foreign from that of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures; . . . it grew up, and was ingrafted on Christianity, through the hands of the Platonizing Fathers."
The Platonizing Fathers were the Greek Philosophers that became Christian but continued to follow the teachings of Plato. These Philosophers mixed Christians Ideas with Pagan Greek Philosophy to formulate the concept of a three person Godhead. The apostle Paul warned the Greek Colossian city, "Beware lest any man cheat you through philosophy and vain deceit. . .(Colossians 2:8)"
What kind of philosophy was Paul warning about? Since Paul was addressing a Greek city, he must have been warning about the entrance of Greek Philosophical Thought. The Platonic Fathers also known as Greek Apologists were the first to introduce Pagan Trinitarian Thought into Christianity.
Church Historian Adolf Harnack states that the Church Fathers which developed the Nicene Creed were Platonists who appealed to Plato in support of the Trinity. Volume 4. Page 88: "Science concluded on alliance with the Nicene Creed; that was a condition of the triumph of orthodoxy. . . These men took their stand on the general theory of the universe which was accepted by the science of the time; they were Platonists, and they once more naively appealed to Plato in support even of their doctrine of the Trinity."
Church Historian Jaroslav Pelikan states in his book - The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition - that Greek Platonic elements were unmistakably present in the Trinitarian definition of One God in "three persons."
"The doctrine of the Trinity. . .must be interpreted in a manner that would be consistent with this a priori definition of the deity of God (One essence, three persons). Neoplatonic elements were unmistakably present in this definition. . ."
The New Catholic Encyclopedia vol. 10, page 335 admits: "From the middle of the 4th century onward, however, Christian thought was strongly influenced by Neo-platonic philosophy and mysticism."
Adolf Harnack states in Outlines of the History of Dogma, that church doctrine became "firmly rooted in the soil of Hellenism [pagan Greek thought]. Thereby it became a mystery to the great majority of Christians."
Andrew Norton declares in the book "A Statement of Reasons" that the Trinity originated not from the Bible, but from Platonic Philosophy: "We can trace the history of this doctrine, and discover its source, not in the Christian revelation, but in the Platonic philosophy . . . The Trinity is not a doctrine of Christ and his Apostles, but a fiction of the school of the later Platonists."
color=blue]NOBODY is PERFECT and I am NOBODY.[/color]

Offline Barde

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Re: : Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2004, 04:35:36 AM »
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Barde

So let us look at what you are saying. ?You say you do not understand the portion dealing with the origin of the word Allah in my posting? ?Well it is just that a history based on historical fact on where the word Allah originated from references have been given which you can also check. ?So do you agree with that? If not please let me have you own study on the origin of the word. ?This is a very important aspect because it will give perspective to the discussion.




Mallam

Is that what you were trying to say? Now read the following.

Believe in God is ingrained in the nature of Man, as long as he existed on earth, the knowledge of God almighty also coexisted, As Allah (SWT) tells us and i quote
" And there never was a people without a warner having lived among them" ?Quran 35:24.

See also quran 10:71,10:74. Every religion has his own peculiar name as god, So it is not suprising if a christian or a hindu rejects the name Allah as his God. For example, the aborigine of south Austrilia calls his God "Atnatu", Ancient phoenicians called their god Allon, latin dominated languages of western europe, term their god as Deus.and so on.

The letters YHWH occurs in the hebrew Jewish scriptures and it occurs commonly with ELOHIM, the combination YHWH/ELOHIM has been consistently translated in the english bible as "Lord God". YYHWH, Yehova or Yahuwa all mean the same thing. "Ya"is vocative and an exclamatory particle in both Hebrew and Arabic, meaning ?Oh! and huwa means He, again in both Hebrew and Arabic. Together they mean Oh He!. Instead of Yahuwa Elohim, we now have Oh He!Elohim.

ELOHIM = ELOH + IM

If you subract YA and IM out of YAHUWA ELOHIM, what remains is HUWAELOH. EL in Hebrew means God, and ELOH or ELAH also stands for the same God.

HUWA ELOH or HUWA ELLAH is identical to the quranic expression

HUWALLAH meaning HE IS ALLAH of verse qur'an 112:1.

This proves that El,Elah and Elohim are not distinctly different words. They all represent the single Arabic word Allah. This fact is corroborated by Rev.C.I.Scofied. A well respected doctor of Divinity among the christian World. See his Bible Commentary for more details.
im

Offline Barde

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Re: : Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2004, 05:17:14 AM »
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Barde


I find it interesting that you make an issue out of the fact that the word Trinity does not exist in the bible yet listen to you (posting dated 7/3/04) "You said that the net total of Allah's attribute is only found in two verses, does it really matter how many times it is been mentioned? if it does, why then as you said trinity cannot be found in the bible? (both new and old testaments)" ?Let me tell you why the number of times Allah's attributes are mentined is important. ?The number of times you call a person is an indication of how important/urgent a matter is. ?If a matter is important it will be stressed over and over again it will not just be mentioned once off. ?That is why it is important to observe the number of times a thing is repeated. ?I find interesting that you find nothing wrong is an attribute which is important in describing Allah appearing in a very limited way in the quran, but find it strange that a word used to describe a biblical concept does not appear in the bible.

Mallam

We believe that the whole Quran is important whether something is mentioned once or twice, Allah does not say anything that is not important. The reason why i brought Trinity is that, you still believe in it despite the fact that it was not mentioned in the bible but you claimed that the concept is there, even though the verses in the bible clearly indicate otherwise, see John 4:34,5:30,7:16&28,11:42,13:16,14:24. It is important for me to quote john 7:28 where Jesus (sorry, God in flesh) was teaching in the temple, he called out and i quote
" Yes, you know me, and you know where i come from. but i represent one you don't know, and he is true".

If i may ask, who is jesus, oh sorry God in flesh representing? and also if you don't want me to make trinity an issue why did you also make Allah's attribute an issue?
im

Offline Barde

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Re: : Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2004, 06:14:57 AM »
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Barde

You said and I quote "Does it really matter where al-Adl is found? whether qur'an or hadith is okay for us as Allah says in surah 4:170..........True muslims accepts anything that comes from Muhammad (saw) so far it has been accurately narrated." Carefully look at what you said, but before I go on, I should enlighten you to the fact that christians all over the world believe that the bible is the only book in the world that contains the undisputed word of God, and therefore only its contents can be made reference to as authoritative word of God NOTHING ELSE! ?Look at the first part of the qoute, you make so much of an issue out of the word Trinity not being in the bible, yet you find nothing wrong if al-Adl is not in the quran and you believe and accept it. ?May I ask you then how many books did Mohammed (SAW) get from Allah? Why are you bringing the hadith into the frame? ?Is the hadith the word of God? if so why is it not in the quran but a seperate book? Should we then take it that Allah gave two seperate books? ?And I agree with you about the importance of true and accurate interpretation of holy books, however any interpretation that can not give us references with the relevant holy book must be veiwed with some suspicion, because we must remember that interpretations are done by men. ?Who does the interpretation the hadith? the prophet (SAW) or men? What do you believe in as the word of Allah? the quran or the hadith? If it is the quran then show me where in the quran used the term al-Adl for Allah.




It seems Mallam does not know what hadith is all about.Allah (SWT) says we should pray, see Quran 62:9. How are we suppose to pray? prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) has given us the answer where he says, pray as you see me praying. For more details see the book of salat by Sahihal Bukhari, Siffatul Salatinnabiy by Nasiruddeen Albaniy. And remember Allah (S.A.W) says in quran 59:7 and i quote

"and whatever the messenger gives you take it, whatever he forbids you, leave it. and fear Allah truly Allah is severe in punishment".

An authentic hadith is known through its isnaad, matan, etc infact the science of hadith is a very wide topic.
im

Offline Barde

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Re: : Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2004, 06:19:09 AM »
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Barde

I qoute you again "You said Allah does not have justice as his attribute, if i may ask you, what does this verse (4:124) talking about? and i quote, "Whoever does righteous good deeds, male or female, and is a believer, such will enter paradise and not the least injustice, even to the size of a speck on the back of a date-stone, will be done to them". qur'an (4:124). and another one says and i quote, ?"So whoever does good equal to the weight of an atom shall see it and who so ever does evil equal to the weight of an atom shall see it". (qur'an 99:7-8). ?Look at both your qoutes there is non that says categorically clear that Allah is just. Your qoutes do not describe being just as an inherent attribute of Allah but just tells us that Allah will be just on a case by case basis. Look at the first qoute, it starts with "Whoever........" this is a condition and goes on to say "such will......." this is what is termed a reward or consequence statement. ?Look at the second qoute the same applies condition statement "So whoever does........" reward or consequence statement "...shall see it......". ?There is no point or indication that Allah is inherently Just which is quite the opposite in the bible where God is clearly and categorically refered to as a just God therefore leaving no one in doubt.


Mallam

Define Justice for me, may be i will understand you better.
im

Offline Barde

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Re: : Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2004, 06:33:00 AM »
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Barde

This is from my posting "Another common term used for sin is 'haram' (forbidden). It indicates that nothing is right or wrong by nature, but only becomes such if Allah says so. What he forbids is sin, even if he forbade what seems to the human conscience right and lawful. What Allah allows is not sin and cannot be sin at the time he allows it, though it may have been before or after. (E.g.: Muttah, 4:28, the marriage of convenience still practised by Shias today, direction of prayer, 2:119, 2:145, number of daily prayers, 30:17, 11:116, drinking of alcohol, 2:216, 5:92 etc.) "

I qoute you "You also made mention of Muttah, it is not only a marriage of convenience but also a temporary marriage practiced by discples of prophet when they are away from their families for long time and they cannot control their sexual desires. As stated in qur'an 4:28. ?And again you said ".....all the commandments were not revealed at once, considering the kind of activities people were doing at that time, he did not tell them to stop everything at once, if for example, they are drinking 12 bottles of alcohol in a day, he will start by telling them to drink like six bottles daily, then with time he will tell them to stop completely.

Now look at what you said closely and think about the implications carefuly, does it not bother you that prophets of a Holy Allah will indulge in that kind of activity (I suggest you also look up the word temporary)? ?Look at the second qoute I made from your posting, even in mortal human terms laws are not put in place gradually, does it not make you wonder how a just Allah that hates sin will on the one hand have a sliding scale of justice, while also permiting sin for as long as it is less than the previous? is sin not just sin? is wrong not just wrong?

Mallam

Dont misunderstand me, Muhammad S.A.W was the only prophet during his time, so how could i have said prophets committed sin?
All what i want you to understand is that islam was not revealed at once. If you didn't read the biography of the prophet i suggest that you go and read it, it will give you the idea of who he was. and i am sure you know about a book called the Top 100 men or the Greatest hundrend in history by Micheal H.Hart. Sorry for digressing, some historians namely
Micheal H. Hart, William McNeill,and James Gavin, individually, considers Muhammad (S.A.W) as worthy of honour and put him as number one before Jesus Christ (Pbuh) eventhough is their Lord and saviour. It is important for me to quote Micheal Hart, he says and i quote

" Since there are roughly twice as many christians in the world, it may initially seem strange that Muhammad
has been ranked higher than Jesus. There are two principal reasons for that decision. first Muhammad played a far more important role in the development of islam than Jesus did in the development of christianity. Although Jesus was responsible for the main ethical and moral precepts of christianity(in sofar as these differered from Judaism).
St. Paul was the main developer of christian theology, its principal proselytizer and the author of a large portion of the new testament. Muhammmad, however, was responsible for both the theology of islam and its main ethical and moral principles. In addition he played the key role in proseltizing the new faith, and in establishing the religious practices of islam." - Micheal Hart in his book "The 100" pages 38/39.
im

Offline Barde

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Re: : Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #43 on: March 12, 2004, 06:37:37 AM »
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Barde

I qoute you "Don't know much about the sufis, talkless of their pantheistic belief...." ?What you are making reference to here is information provided to you which is a historical fact I am not surprised you are not aware of it but I hope you have learnt something that will also raise your curiosity and encourage you to search for truth.



Mallam

Did you see Sufiasm among the five pillars of Islam?
im

Offline Barde

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Re: : Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #44 on: March 12, 2004, 06:45:40 AM »
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Barde


This is from your qoute "Why do you call me good, Jesus asked? only God is truely good". (Mark 11:18) (Remember trinity). Yes I know our discussion on Trinity. ?My understanding of why you are making this reference is that you are questioning if we say Jesus is God why then does Jesus say only God is truly good. First of all you are wrong with your reference you must be refering to Mark 10:18. The start of the verse tells you that somebody asked a question and was refering to Jesus as good and the verse is Jesus's response to the question. ?So what was the question? ?the question was ..."Good Teacher, what shall I do to get eternal life?" (Mark 10:17). ?Now remember as I told you and also I also qouted verses for you in the bible, christains believe in only ONE God! ?You have tried and pushed a particular veiw point that is not supported in the bible, which is to try and imply that christians are saying there is more than one God. ?Read again my posting covering the Holy Trinity please!!!!! Mark 10:18 Jesus was challenging the man's faulty perception of good as something measure by human acheivement (Mat 19:17; Luke 18:19; John 5:41-44). ?No one is good absolutely perfect, except God alone, the true Source and Standard of goodness. ?The man needed to see himself in the context of God's perfect character. ?Jesus's response did not deny His own deity but was a veiled claim to it. ?The man, unwittingly calling Him "good" needed to perceive Jesus' true identity. ?If you noticed, the man later dropped the word "good" verse 20.


Mallam

Okay, Christians are worshipping one God, but how comes God in flesh does not regard himself as a good God? and if at all Jesus was God in flesh, why didn't he say I am the good God?. Remember you said Allah does not regard himself as a Just, your reason was Allah did not mentioned it.
im

 


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