MUSLIMS VS. CHRISTIANS

[kofa]

BRIEF LOOK AT FAITH: MUSLIMS vs. CHRISTIANS

God
-Muslim Belief
God is one God in the most basic, simple, and elementary meaning of the word. He has no children, no parents nor any equal. In Islam God is known by the name Allah and more than 99 other venerated names, such as the Merciful,the Gracious,the All-Powerful, etc.
-Christian Belief
God is three gods merged into one God. This one God is called a Trinity. However, to say that God is three is a blasphemy of the highest order. All three parts of the Trinity are coequal co-eternal and the same substance.For this reason, this doctrine is described as a mystery.            

Muhammad
-Muslim Belief
The last messenger of God to all of humanity. He was known as The Truthful, the Trustworthy before he received his first revelation. He was sent by God as a mercy to all creation. He was a human being but performed a number of miracles during his lifetime by the will of God.
-Christian Belief
Varying beliefs. Some believe that he was a liar, some believe he was a lunatic, some believe he was the False Messiah, and yet others claim he was deceived by the Devil.

Jesus
-Muslim Belief
A very elect and highly esteemed messenger of God. No Muslim is a Muslim if he does not believe this.
-Christian Belief
The second member of the Triune God, the Son of the first part of the Triune God, and at the same time fully God in every respect.


Mary the mother of Jesus
-Muslim Belief
A chaste and pious human woman who was chosen, purified, and preferred over all of the women of creation to be the one to give birth to Gods elect messenger Jesus through the command of God without any father whatsoever.
-Christian Belief
A chaste and pious human woman who gave birth to Jesus Christ, the second member of the Trinity, the Son of God, and at the same time fully God Almighty in every respect


The Word
-Muslim Belief
Gods command Be which resulted in Jesus conception in the womb of Mary without the need for a human father.
-Christian Belief
Part of God which was with God but also "fully" God and then became Jesus the Son of God.

Previous prophets
-Muslim Belief
All accepted, respected, and believed.
-Christian Belief
All accepted, respected, and believed.

The Quran
-Muslim Belief
The last book of God sent to mankind. It was given the distinction of being personally guarded by God from human tampering. It is on a literary level never before seen by mankind. No human to this day has ever been able to meet its challenge to write a work similar to it.It shall remain safe from the tampering of mankind till the day of Judgment as a guidance for all Humanity.
-Christian Belief
Varying beliefs ranging from it being a copy of the Bible to it being the work of Muhammad (pbuh), to its being the work of Christians and Jews who were conspiring with Muhammad.

The Bible
-Muslim Belief
Muslims believe in the books of the previous prophets including the Torah which was sent to Moses, the Zaboor (Psalms) which were given to David, the Injeel" (Gospel) which was given to Jesus, and the Quran which was given to Muhammad However, Muslims are told that the previous scriptures were tampered with by mankind and the Bible should only be accepted in as far as it is confirmed by the Quran. It is to be treated with respect, however any statements which clearly oppose those of the Quran are to be rejected as the work of mankind.
-Christian Belief
Accepted as 100% the faultless word of God

Message of Jesus
-Muslim Belief
That he was sent by God as a messenger to the Jews in order to return them to the pure and true religion of Moses, and to relieve them of some of the regulations which had been placed upon them in ancient times. He taught them to have faith as well as works. Neither one can stand alone.
-Christian Belief
That he was sent by God (who was at the same time "fully Jesus) in order to die on the cross and save all mankind from the sin of Adam. Without this sacrifice all of humanity was destined to perish in the sin of Adam. After the crucifixion all that is required of humanity is faith without any works.


Jesus giving life to the dead, healing the blind and the lepers
- Muslim Belief
All accepted. They were performed through the will of God just as Moses, Noah, and all other prophets did so in ancient times through the will of God.
-Christian Belief
All accepted. He performed them because he was the Son of God and also at the same time fully God and the "incarnation of God.

The crucifixion
-Muslim Belief
Jesus was not forsaken to the Jews to be abused and killed, however, it was made to appear so to them.God saved Jesus by raising him up unto Himself.
-Christian Belief
Jesus was given over to the Jews. He was spat on, cut, humiliated, kicked, striped, and finally hung up on the cross and killed very slowly and painfully.


The second coming of Jesus.
-Muslim Belief
Accepted. Jesus did not die but was raised up into heaven by God. He shall return to earth just before the Day of Judgment in order to kill the False Messiah and to establish peace and justice on earth. He will kill the pigs, break the cross, and call all humanity to Islam.
-Christian Belief
Accepted. Originally expected to happen during the lifetime of the first disciples, many predictions have been made later and he is still expected at any moment. He is currently anticipated to arrive around the turn of the century (2000 C.E.)


The original sin
-Muslim Belief
There is no such thing. Humanity is created by God destined for heaven unless they chose to disobey Him and refuse His mercy. God can very trivially and effortlessly forgive the sins of all of Humanity no matter if they were to fill the lofty regions of the sky. Such a matter would be trivial and inconsequential for Him since He has already done much more than that such as creating everything we can ever see, hear or imagine. He loves to bestow His mercy and forgiveness on His creation and rewards the most trivial acts with the most tremendous rewards. In order to achieve Gods reward one must have faith as well as works
-Christian Belief
All of humanity has inherited the sin of Adam. Only the death of the sinless offspring of God could erase this sin. No one is born clean, no matter if his life is only for a single day. Only baptism and faith in the death of Jesus can save one from this destiny.


The atonement
-Muslim Belief
Adam atoned for his sin by saying My Lord I have sinned and if you do not forgive me and have mercy upon me then I shall indeed have lost. So God forgave him. Similarly, all human beings have the door to forgiveness left open to them by God until the day they die. There are no intermediaries between mankind and God. If they sincerely repent to God, ask His forgiveness, and forsake their evil deeds before their hour comes then He shall forgive them and there is nothing more pleasing to Him than to forgive the sins of one who comes to Him in sincere repentance.
-Christian Belief
The sin of Adam was so great that God could not forgive it by simply willing it, rather it was necessary to erase it with the blood of a sinless innocent god named Jesus who was also fully God.


The path to salvation
-Muslim Belief
If you have faith in God, believe in His messengers, and obey His commands then He shall multiply every single good deed that you do many, many times and erase your evil deeds, until on the Day of Judgment His mercy shall cause your good deeds to far outweigh your evil deeds and grant you passage into an ecstasy and Paradise so great that we can not even imagine it, to abide there eternally. In the Hereafter there is only reward and no work.
-Christian Belief
If you have faith in the atonement of Jesus for the sin of Adam which you have inherited then you shall be saved. You only need faith. No work is necessary.


The Holy Spirit
-Muslim Belief
He is the angel Gabriel. The angel Gabriel is highly esteemed as the Trustworthy Spirit
-Christian Belief
The third member of the Triune God, but also fully God in every respect.

[lionger]

Hi kofa,

First let me make one correction: Mary is NOT part of the Blessed Trinity. The Godhead consists of these three Persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Mary was a human being, simply used by God for His purpose on earth. She is not God, and there is not a single verse in the Bible that says anything to the contrary. Jesus, on the other hand is God!

As for the incomprehensible nature of the Trinity, let me ask you (and the rest of KanoOnline) some of the questions God asked Job in the Torah (Old testament):

Job 38: 1-37
" Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me if you understand.
Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone -
while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?
...Have you ever given orders to the morning, or shown the dawn its place,
that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it?
..Have the gates of death been shown to you? Have you ever seen the gates of the shadow of death?
What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside?
Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings? Surely you know, for you were already born! You have lived so many years!
Can you bind the beautiful Pleiades? Can you loose the cords of Orion?
Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons,
?or lead out the Bear with its cubs?
Do you know the laws of the heavens?
..Can you raise your voice to the clouds, and cover yourself with a flood of water?
Do you send the lightning bolts on their way? Do they report to you,'Here we are'?
Who endowed the heart with wisdom, or gave understanding to the mind?"

Thus in other words: you are yet to understand in full the universe and all of creation; why/how do you think you can completely comprehend the Creator?

[Bashir]

religion. bah!! faith is "belief without evidence in what is said by one who speaks without proof of things without parallel." just believe in what u r believing n hope for d best. trying to prove d real religion from d available literature is like knocking ur head against a wall.

[Ibro2g]

You said it Bash Many learnered scholars have tried even more failed. The truth about religion is intriquing but simple, and one will understand its simplicity in its interconnectivity. 1, there is no religion without a supreme being known as God, 2 prophets and scriptures who speak about the past and future prophets and events, 3 belief, life after death. from its simplicity to its diversity in many forms. Just like many Holy prophets have said; There is only one religion of God, the others are diversions, by-the-ways, mistakes, in short, human metamorphosis. In trying to trace our past errors in millions of years, our nuclear brains may quench, I believe we find what is best believing and believe in it, what I best belive in is one true God. I easily believe in his supremacy, I easily believe in my total submission to him, in simpler translation; I believe in ISLAM!

[Barde]

Hi kofa,

First let me make one correction: Mary is NOT part of the Blessed Trinity. The Godhead consists of these three Persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Mary was a human being, simply used by God for His purpose on earth. She is not God, and there is not a single verse in the Bible that says anything to the contrary. Jesus, on the other hand is God!

As for the incomprehensible nature of the Trinity, let me ask you (and the rest of KanoOnline) some of the questions God asked Job in the Torah (Old testament):

Job 38: 1-37
" Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me if you understand.
Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone -
while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?
...Have you ever given orders to the morning, or shown the dawn its place,
that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it?
..Have the gates of death been shown to you? Have you ever seen the gates of the shadow of death?
What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside?
Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings? Surely you know, for you were already born! You have lived so many years!
Can you bind the beautiful Pleiades? Can you loose the cords of Orion?
Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons,
?or lead out the Bear with its cubs?
Do you know the laws of the heavens?
..Can you raise your voice to the clouds, and cover yourself with a flood of water?
Do you send the lightning bolts on their way? Do they report to you,'Here we are'?
Who endowed the heart with wisdom, or gave understanding to the mind?"

Thus in other words: you are yet to understand in full the universe and all of creation; why/how do you think you can completely comprehend the Creator?

Lionger,

As there is no single verse that suggest Mary's divinity, so also there is no single verse that suggest Jesus's divinity . I hereby challenge you or any christian to give me a single verse from the bible that says Jesus is God or part of God. Don't bother yourself explaining just the verse alone will be okay.

Jesus came with a clear message,  which urged mankind to worship one God alone, became distorted after his departure. Later followers begining with Paul, turned that pure and simple message into a complicated trinitarian philosophy which justified the worship of Jesus.

Even if  Mary is not part of the Trinity, there are christian denominations especially Catholics that worship her, she became an object of veneration in the christian church since apostolic age. She was given a title Theotokos, meaning "God-bearer" or " mother of God". Popular devotion to Mary- in the form of feasts, devotional services and the rosary- has played a tremendous role in the lives of Roman catholics and the Orthodox.

[lionger]

ah, you have returned :). I hope we can continue our tradition of respectful debate w/out too many rash words.

As there is no single verse that suggest Mary's divinity, so also there is no single verse that suggest Jesus's divinity . I hereby challenge you or any christian to give me a single verse from the bible that says Jesus is God or part of God. Don't bother yourself explaining just the verse alone will be okay.

This is easy, Barde, infact you should remember some of the verses i am about to mention, because i mentioned them to you b4. Anyways, repetition is not a vice so here goes..

Phillipians 2:5-7

'Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God , did not consider equality with God somethign to be grasped, but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.'

John 1:1

'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning..the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth..for the law came through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

There is more, but I will leave you with this for now:

Jesus came with a clear message, which urged mankind to worship one God alone, became distorted after his departure. Later followers begining with Paul, turned that pure and simple message into a complicated trinitarian philosophy which justified the worship of Jesus.

Counter-argument:
John 20:26-29
"A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas waas with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, Peace be with you! Then he said to Thomas, 'Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.'
Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God!'
Then Jesus said told him, 'Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.'"

What was Jesus' answer? Just because He did not come down from heaven and demand worship does not mean that He denied divinity. You see, God is not interested in false worship. He'd much rather have us worship him out of the  sincerity of our hearts rather than out of fear or adherence to a law of sorts. Hitherto, Christianity is NOT a religion or a bunch of rules or a routine, but a relationship, based on our sincere love. Here's an article to explain what I mean.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Trinity/worship.html

[mallamt]

Lionger
very good write ups need I say more? God bless
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Barde

you wrote

Even if Mary is not part of the Trinity, there are christian denominations especially Catholics that worship her, she became an object of veneration in the christian church since apostolic age. She was given a title Theotokos, meaning "God-bearer" or " mother of God". Popular devotion to Mary- in the form of feasts, devotional services and the rosary- has played a tremendous role in the lives of Roman catholics and the Orthodox.

As you are aware christianity does have various denominations just as islam has different sects.  But one thing I know even though I am not catholic is that catholics do not worship mary as you have said.  I believe that in a discussion like this let us limit ourselves to the writings of holy books, for instant christians also do not understand why you should have shia, sunni etc. We will end up discussing denominations and not the religion.

[Anonymous]

ah, you have returned :). I hope we can continue our tradition of respectful debate w/out too many rash words.

As there is no single verse that suggest Mary's divinity, so also there is no single verse that suggest Jesus's divinity . I hereby challenge you or any christian to give me a single verse from the bible that says Jesus is God or part of God. Don't bother yourself explaining just the verse alone will be okay.

This is easy, Barde, infact you should remember some of the verses i am about to mention, because i mentioned them to you b4. Anyways, repetition is not a vice so here goes..

Phillipians 2:5-7

'Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God , did not consider equality with God somethign to be grasped, but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.'

John 1:1

'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning..the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth..for the law came through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

There is more, but I will leave you with this for now:

Jesus came with a clear message, which urged mankind to worship one God alone, became distorted after his departure. Later followers begining with Paul, turned that pure and simple message into a complicated trinitarian philosophy which justified the worship of Jesus.

Counter-argument:
John 20:26-29
"A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas waas with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, Peace be with you! Then he said to Thomas, 'Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.'
Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God!'
Then Jesus said told him, 'Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.'"

What was Jesus' answer? Just because He did not come down from heaven and demand worship does not mean that He denied divinity. You see, God is not interested in false worship. He'd much rather have us worship him out of the  sincerity of our hearts rather than out of fear or adherence to a law of sorts. Hitherto, Christianity is NOT a religion or a bunch of rules or a routine, but a relationship, based on our sincere love. Here's an article to explain what I mean.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Trinity/worship.html

Lionger,

Am back for a while before disappearing again. Your responses were interesting and funny at same time.

Who was the author of Phillipians? you have corroborated the stand of Muslims on the present day bible. Paul was the author, he wrote it during his imprisonement about 61 A.D, the purpose was to thank the phillipians for the money they had sent him(while he was in house arrest) and to encourage them by describing the contentment he has found in Jesus christ.

With the above background, let me continue from verse 8 (you quoted phillipians 2:5-7) Paul said " And in human form he obediently humbled himself even further by dying a criminal's death on a cross." and he continued in verse 9. "Because of this, God raised him up to the heights of heaven and gave him a name that is above every other name."

If you scrutinised the above verses, you will noticed that God raised Jesus..... and a Christian will tell you that there is only one God. My question is, if there is only one God and "jesus is God" how come he was raised by God? does that not sound comfusing?

Now to John 1:1, i have tackled this issue previously but let me again answer you.

If he was with God in the begining...does that make him God? how can the word be God if he is with God himself? it is like saying ' In the begining was Barde and Barde was with Lionger and Lionger was Barde' Such language seems designed to cause obscurity and confusion instead of conveying meaning. If the word was God, does God have a begining? considering the fact that your "holy bible" affirms that Jesus was the begining of creation of God (colossians 1:15) and Proverbs 8:22, in fact the latter verse is enough to disprove the claim that "Jesus is God" since Jesus is quoted as saying "The Lord created me the first of his works long ago, before all else that made." Moreover how can he be God when he asserted that he was created by God?



You also made mentioned of John 20:26-29. If am right the whole chapter is talking about Jesus Resurrection, am i?

I want to refer you back a little bit, in the same chapter 20 verse 17, Jesus appeared and said to Mary magdalene "Don't cling to me" Jesus said, for i have yet ascended to the Father. But go find my brothers and tell them that i am ascending to my father and your father, MY GOD and YOUR GOD." emphasis mine. I wonder if the verses you quoted (26-29)and verse 17 are consistent.

You will agree with me that they are inconsistent. It is because of such verses that we doubt the authenticity of the present day bible. The qur'an teaches that Jesus was not killed, but was instead raised up alive by God into the heavens "And their saying:' We killed the messiah, son of Mary, but they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, rather it was made to seem that way to them. And those who differ about it are full of doubts. they have no knowledge about it, and follow instead conjecture. They certainly did not killed him for Allah raised him up to Himself. and Allah is all powerful, All wise."

These inconsistencies results from the fabrication Jesus's resurrection because he did not die talkless of been resurrected.

[Barde]

ah, you have returned :). I hope we can continue our tradition of respectful debate w/out too many rash words.

As there is no single verse that suggest Mary's divinity, so also there is no single verse that suggest Jesus's divinity . I hereby challenge you or any christian to give me a single verse from the bible that says Jesus is God or part of God. Don't bother yourself explaining just the verse alone will be okay.

This is easy, Barde, infact you should remember some of the verses i am about to mention, because i mentioned them to you b4. Anyways, repetition is not a vice so here goes..

Phillipians 2:5-7

'Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God , did not consider equality with God somethign to be grasped, but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.'

John 1:1

'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning..the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth..for the law came through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

There is more, but I will leave you with this for now:

Jesus came with a clear message, which urged mankind to worship one God alone, became distorted after his departure. Later followers begining with Paul, turned that pure and simple message into a complicated trinitarian philosophy which justified the worship of Jesus.

Counter-argument:
John 20:26-29
"A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas waas with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, Peace be with you! Then he said to Thomas, 'Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.'
Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God!'
Then Jesus said told him, 'Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.'"

What was Jesus' answer? Just because He did not come down from heaven and demand worship does not mean that He denied divinity. You see, God is not interested in false worship. He'd much rather have us worship him out of the  sincerity of our hearts rather than out of fear or adherence to a law of sorts. Hitherto, Christianity is NOT a religion or a bunch of rules or a routine, but a relationship, based on our sincere love. Here's an article to explain what I mean.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Trinity/worship.html

I submitted  the earlier post not knowing that i did not login, am sorry about that.

Lionger,

Am back for a while before disappearing again. Your responses were interesting and funny at same time.

Who was the author of Phillipians? you have corroborated the stand of Muslims on the present day bible. Paul was the author, he wrote it during his imprisonement about 61 A.D, the purpose was to thank the phillipians for the money they had sent him(while he was in house arrest) and to encourage them by describing the contentment he has found in Jesus christ.

With the above background, let me continue from verse 8 (you quoted phillipians 2:5-7) Paul said " And in human form he obediently humbled himself even further by dying a criminal's death on a cross." and he continued in verse 9. "Because of this, God raised him up to the heights of heaven and gave him a name that is above every other name."

If you scrutinised the above verses, you will noticed that God raised Jesus..... and a Christian will tell you that there is only one God. My question is, if there is only one God and "jesus is God" how come he was raised by God? does that not sound comfusing?

Now to John 1:1, i have tackled this issue previously but let me again answer you.

If he was with God in the begining...does that make him God? how can the word be God if he is with God himself? it is like saying ' In the begining was Barde and Barde was with Lionger and Lionger was Barde' Such language seems designed to cause obscurity and confusion instead of conveying meaning. If the word was God, does God have a begining? considering the fact that your "holy bible" affirms that Jesus was the begining of creation of God (colossians 1:15) and Proverbs 8:22, in fact the latter verse is enough to disprove the claim that "Jesus is God" since Jesus is quoted as saying "The Lord created me the first of his works long ago, before all else that made." Moreover how can he be God when he asserted that he was created by God?



You also made mentioned of John 20:26-29. If am right the whole chapter is talking about Jesus Resurrection, am i?

I want to refer you back a little bit, in the same chapter 20 verse 17, Jesus appeared and said to Mary magdalene "Don't cling to me" Jesus said, for i have yet ascended to the Father. But go find my brothers and tell them that i am ascending to my father and your father, MY GOD and YOUR GOD." emphasis mine. I wonder if the verses you quoted (26-29)and verse 17 are consistent.

You will agree with me that they are inconsistent. It is because of such verses that we doubt the authenticity of the present day bible. The qur'an teaches that Jesus was not killed, but was instead raised up alive by God into the heavens "And their saying:' We killed the messiah, son of Mary, but they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, rather it was made to seem that way to them. And those who differ about it are full of doubts. they have no knowledge about it, and follow instead conjecture. They certainly did not killed him for Allah raised him up to Himself. and Allah is all powerful, All wise."

These inconsistencies results from the fabrication of Jesus's resurrection because he did not die talkless of been resurrected.

[Barde]

Lionger
very good write ups need I say more? God bless
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Barde

you wrote

Even if Mary is not part of the Trinity, there are christian denominations especially Catholics that worship her, she became an object of veneration in the christian church since apostolic age. She was given a title Theotokos, meaning "God-bearer" or " mother of God". Popular devotion to Mary- in the form of feasts, devotional services and the rosary- has played a tremendous role in the lives of Roman catholics and the Orthodox.

As you are aware christianity does have various denominations just as islam has different sects.  But one thing I know even though I am not catholic is that catholics do not worship mary as you have said.  I believe that in a discussion like this let us limit ourselves to the writings of holy books, for instant christians also do not understand why you should have shia, sunni etc. We will end up discussing denominations and not the religion.

Mallamt,

Did you read Kofa's thread and subsequent reply by Lionger? i urged you to read it carefully, i believe you will understand the reason why i brought the issue of denominations.

Am not aware that Christianity does not have different denominations, moreover you made mentioned that you are not a catholic but you are a christian, are you not? at the same time a catholic will tell you he is a christian as well. As you said let us discuss the religion.

Islam have sunnis, ishiat's as you said but do they differ on the five pillars of islam?

[lionger]

Lol, Barde, you sabi dance well well. Let me give you yet another proof of Christ's divinity for for you to chew:

Hebrews 1:8,9
'But about the the Son he says,
" Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God , has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy."

Guess what, this is a quotation from the Old Testament! Read Psalm 45: 6,7. The author of Hebrews was quoting the Old Testament as proof of Jesus' divinity! So this is not a Pauline or New Testament corruption. This is a consistent theme that is carried on throughout scripture!

With the above background, let me continue from verse 8 (you quoted phillipians 2:5-7) Paul said " And in human form he obediently humbled himself even further by dying a criminal's death on a cross." and he continued in verse 9. "Because of this, God raised him up to the heights of heaven and gave him a name that is above every other name."

If you scrutinised the above verses, you will noticed that God raised Jesus..... and a Christian will tell you that there is only one God. My question is, if there is only one God and "jesus is God" how come he was raised by God? does that not sound comfusing?

Who raised Jesus? That is an interesting question..let's see what the Bible says, shall we? Remember, we believe that God is triune in nature, i.e. the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

The answer: God the Father raised Jesus from the dead:

Romans 6:4
"Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
Galatians 1:1
"Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead)..."
1 Thessalonians 1:9-10
"For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."

But wait, didn't Jesus say he would raise himself from the dead?

John 2:19-22
"Jesus answered and said to them, 'Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.'  Then the Jews said, 'It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?'  But He was speaking of the temple of His body.  Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said."
John 10:17-18:
"Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.  No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself.  I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.  This command I have received from My Father."

What about the Holy Spirit?

Romans 8:11:
"But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you."
1 Peter 3:18:
"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit..."

So who raised Jesus from the dead? GOD raised Jesus from the dead! Catch my drift? It is not contradiction upon contradiction; the one  God who raised Jesus is the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

If he was with God in the begining...does that make him God? how can the word be God if he is with God himself? it is like saying ' In the begining was Barde and Barde was with Lionger and Lionger was Barde' Such language seems designed to cause obscurity and confusion instead of conveying meaning. If the word was God, does God have a begining? considering the fact that your "holy bible" affirms that Jesus was the begining of creation of God (colossians 1:15) and Proverbs 8:22, in fact the latter verse is enough to disprove the claim that "Jesus is God" since Jesus is quoted as saying "The Lord created me the first of his works long ago, before all else that made." Moreover how can he be God when he asserted that he was created by God?

Why did you ignore the first part of Colossians 1:15? This is what that verse fully says:
'He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.'

Barde, are you separate from your image, i.e. your reflection, what others see when they look at you, or not? In the same sense, are your words (i.e. your communication) clearly divisible from yourself, or arent they? So also, in the same sense understand the Son, who is the image and Word of God.
And now we get to the contentious word 'firstborn', which seems to indicate that the Son is a created being. It is in the understanding of what has been previously discussed that the context in which this word is used is clearly understood. It is used not to refer to origin, but as an expression of rank or supremacy over all creation. So it is not  'first born' in understanding. If you think this is just a smart deception, then let's read Revelations 1:4,5:
'Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from teh seven spirits before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead and the ruler of the kings of the earth.'
Does this mean that Jesus was the first to rise from the dead? No, he wasn't! People were brought back to life in the old testament, and Jesus himself performed such miracles. However, unlike all the others, death no longer has any hold over Jesus. All the others, after ressurection died thereafter, of course; however Jesus after being ressurected, lives for ever more! He is the firstborn from the dead in the sense that he demonstrated his power and supremacy over death by raising Himself from the grave, as I have already shown. He now possesses the key to death and Hades, death has no power over him! See, never isolate verses  out of context!
Finally, about Proverbs 8:22 - is it Jesus speaking?

I want to refer you back a little bit, in the same chapter 20 verse 17, Jesus appeared and said to Mary magdalene "Don't cling to me" Jesus said, for i have yet ascended to the Father. But go find my brothers and tell them that i am ascending to my father and your father, MY GOD and YOUR GOD." emphasis mine. I wonder if the verses you quoted (26-29)and verse 17 are consistent.

Here is your answer, to be found partially in your own misquote:

With the above background, let me continue from verse 8 (you quoted phillipians 2:5-7) Paul said " And in human form he obediently humbled himself even further by dying a criminal's death on a cross."

but here is a more complete version:
Philippians 2:7-8
'...but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant , being made in human likeness . And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient to death - even death on a cross!

Is it still hard to understand Jesus' words in John 20:17 in this context? He was not half-man and half-God; He was 100% God and 100% man at the same time! Only in this light can you see the verses as non-contradictory, but in fact in a complementary manner. Just because it may seem complex and alien to your does not mean it is wrong. As I said to kofa, if we do not yet completely understand creation, why do we think we can fully understand the nature of the Creator?

[mallamt]

Barde

I suggest you read liongers response carefully and ponder on it.  You see the problem most people have of Christ divinity arises out of our trying to reason everthing in human terms.  The bible from the old testament through the new testament has been consistent with the position of Jesus.  You see I will refer you to 1 Corithians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. Also see 1 Corithians 1:18-20 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? See also 1 Corithians 1:22-24 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God

I really do understand your difficulty in comprehending the issue of Jesus is God, you are not the first you will not be the last.  But the bible says it and confirms it, the question of whether you believe it or not is really upto you and only through the grace of God

[Anonymous]

Lol, Barde, you sabi dance well well. Let me give you yet another proof of Christ's divinity for for you to chew:

Hebrews 1:8,9
'But about the the Son he says,
" Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God , has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy."

Guess what, this is a quotation from the Old Testament! Read Psalm 45: 6,7. The author of Hebrews was quoting the Old Testament as proof of Jesus' divinity! So this is not a Pauline or New Testament corruption. This is a consistent theme that is carried on throughout scripture!

Lionger,

You sabi dance pass me. Proving Jesus's divinity is not as easy as you think, infact it is the most difficult thing for one to pursue.

It is so surprising that you are quoting from Hebrews - a collection of verses with uncertain author, how can you hold something as your prove when the author is uncertain? Your quotations indicated that God was talking to his son....and God is one? It can only make sense if the verses indicated God was talking to himself since He is one. (since God the son is also God)


Did you get what am saying? incase you didn't, here is an explanation in verse  13. " And God never said to an angel, as he did to his Son, Sit in honor at my right hand until i humble your enemies, making them a footstool under your feet."

The Son, "who is himself God" will sit at God's right hand... how are they one?

Who raised Jesus? That is an interesting question..let's see what the Bible says, shall we? Remember, we believe that God is triune in nature, i.e. the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

The answer: God the Father raised Jesus from the dead:

Romans 6:4
"Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
Galatians 1:1
"Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead)..."
1 Thessalonians 1:9-10
"For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."

But wait, didn't Jesus say he would raise himself from the dead?

John 2:19-22
"Jesus answered and said to them, 'Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.'  Then the Jews said, 'It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?'  But He was speaking of the temple of His body.  Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said."
John 10:17-18:
"Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.  No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself.  I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.  This command I have received from My Father."

What about the Holy Spirit?

Romans 8:11:
"But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you."
1 Peter 3:18:
"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit..."

So who raised Jesus from the dead? GOD raised Jesus from the dead! Catch my drift? It is not contradiction upon contradiction; the one  God who raised Jesus is the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

All these your grammer will only make sense, if you say God raised himself from the dead, this is because there is no way Jesus "as God" can die for three days and raised by another God and you still insist that there is one God. Or may be Jesus as the powerless God was raised by the more powerful God. I have written about the Holy spirit in my coming thread, so will not say anything now.

Why did you ignore the first part of Colossians 1:15? This is what that verse fully says:
'He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.'

Barde, are you separate from your image, i.e. your reflection, what others see when they look at you, or not? In the same sense, are your words (i.e. your communication) clearly divisible from yourself, or arent they? So also, in the same sense understand the Son, who is the image and Word of God.
And now we get to the contentious word 'firstborn', which seems to indicate that the Son is a created being. It is in the understanding of what has been previously discussed that the context in which this word is used is clearly understood. It is used not to refer to origin, but as an expression of rank or supremacy over all creation. So it is not  'first born' in understanding. If you think this is just a smart deception, then let's read Revelations 1:4,5:
'Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from teh seven spirits before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead and the ruler of the kings of the earth.'
Does this mean that Jesus was the first to rise from the dead? No, he wasn't! People were brought back to life in the old testament, and Jesus himself performed such miracles. However, unlike all the others, death no longer has any hold over Jesus. All the others, after ressurection died thereafter, of course; however Jesus after being ressurected, lives for ever more! He is the firstborn from the dead in the sense that he demonstrated his power and supremacy over death by raising Himself from the grave, as I have already shown. He now possesses the key to death and Hades, death has no power over him! See, never isolate verses  out of context!

Agreed am not seperate from my image, if it is to be taken in the same regard, it means God was dead for three days, since God and Jesus are inseparable. There was a time when you or Mallamt, said it was not God that died but Jesus, and you are now telling me they cannot never be seperated.

Sorry for ignoring Colossians 1:15, let's read my own version of verses 15 and 16.

"Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before God made anything at all and is supreme over all creation. Christ is the one through whom God created everything in heaven and earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can't see-kings, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities. Everything has been created THROUGH HIM AND FOR HIM." emphasis mine.

Taken these verses as they are, one can notice that Jesus is only a medium through which all things were created. Substitute the name of Christ in place of God  and see if the verses will make any sense.

Here is your answer, to be found partially in your own misquote:

With the above background, let me continue from verse 8 (you quoted phillipians 2:5-7) Paul said " And in human form he obediently humbled himself even further by dying a criminal's death on a cross."

but here is a more complete version:
Philippians 2:7-8
'...but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant , being made in human likeness . And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient to death - even death on a cross!

Is it still hard to understand Jesus' words in John 20:17 in this context? He was not half-man and half-God; He was 100% God and 100% man at the same time! Only in this light can you see the verses as non-contradictory, but in fact in a complementary manner. Just because it may seem complex and alien to your does not mean it is wrong. As I said to kofa, if we do not yet completely understand creation, why do we think we can fully understand the nature of the Creator?

I did not misquote anything, that is how it is written in my own version of the bible. I purposely left the quotation for you to go and verify.... even though i once gave you the details of the bible am using, i don't think it will make any harm by given you once again.

"Holy Bible"
New Living Translation,
Gift and Award Edition. (1997)
Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.
Wheaton, Illinois

One good thing is that Jesus has never equated himself with God, but Christians of nowadays who consider him coequal with God...many apologies to Jehovah witnesses, who do not hold the same view. All these you are quoting are letters mostly written by Paul after the "ressurrection of jesus" I was expecting you to quote Jesus directly from  book of  Luke, John etc who recorded lengthy teachings of Jesus, including the seven "I am" statements of Jesus about himself.

Let me quote Paul's final instructions to Timothy (since you prefer the words of Paul), where he says " He alone can never die, and he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him. No one has EVER SEEN, NOR EVER WILL. To him be honor and power forever. Amen". Emphasis mine.
How come we have images of Jesus? since" he is God"

[Anonymous]

Lionger,

You sabi dance pass me. Proving Jesus divinity is not as easy as you think, infact it is the most difficult thing for one to pursue.

It is suprising for you to quote from Hebrews, which is a collection of verses with an uncertain author, how can you hold something as your evidence when the composer is uncerain?

Your quotations indicated that God was talking to his son...."who is himself God" does is it make any sense if the verses indicated that God was talking to himself? since he is one. Did you get what am saying? let me give you another example in verse 13 "And God never said to an angel, as he did to his son, sit in honor at my right hand until i humble your enemies, making them a footstool under your feet".

The son "who is himself God" will sit at God's right hand....how are they one?

Agreed Barde is not seperate with his image, if it is to be taken in this regard, it means "God died" for three days since "God and Jesus are inseperable".  There was a time when you or Mallamt said it was not God that died but Jesus, and you are now telling me that they can never be seperated.

Sorry for ignoring Colossians 1:15, let's read what it says, "And christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before God made anything at all and is supreme over all creation". And verse 16 says "Christ is the one through who God created everything in heaven and earth.He made things we can see and the things we can't see- Kings, kingdoms,rulers, and authorities. Everything has been created through him".

Taken these verses as they are, one can notice that Jesus is the medium through which all things were created. Substitute the name of Christ in place of God and see if the verses will make any sense.

I did not misquote anything, I directly quoted from the version of the bible am using, let me once again give you the details for you to go and verify.

"Holy Bible"
New living translation
Gift and Award Edition
Tyndale House Publishers, inc
Wheaton, Illinois. (1997).

One interesting thing is that Jesus has never equated himself with God but christians of now a days elevated him to the status of God...many apologies to Jehovah witnesses, who do not hold the same view. Better part of what you quoted are letters mostly written by Paul after the "resurrection of Jesus". I was expecting you to quote Jesus directly from the books of Luke, John etc who recorded lengthy teachings of Jesus, including the seven "I am" statements of Jesus about himself.

Let me quote Paul's final instructions to timothy, since you prefer the words of Paul, where he says in 1Timothy 6:16 "He alone can never die, and he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him. No else has EVER SEEN, NOR EVER WILL. To him be honor and power forever amen". Emphasis mine.
How come "Jesus as God in flesh" was subjected to all sort of hardship?

[Anonymous]

Barde

I suggest you read liongers response carefully and ponder on it.  You see the problem most people have of Christ divinity arises out of our trying to reason everthing in human terms.  The bible from the old testament through the new testament has been consistent with the position of Jesus.  You see I will refer you to 1 Corithians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. Also see 1 Corithians 1:18-20 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? See also 1 Corithians 1:22-24 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God

I really do understand your difficulty in comprehending the issue of Jesus is God, you are not the first you will not be the last.  But the bible says it and confirms it, the question of whether you believe it or not is really upto you and only through the grace of God

Mallamt/Lionger,

Am sorry, the system am using refused to log me in, hope you guys will bear with me.

Who is the author of these verses you quoted? the author is the inventor of all this confusion. He knew you guys can never ever depend what he wrote, so he gave you an escape route, incase situations like this may arise. Jesus did not bring anything difficult to understand but rather Paul who brought you into this spiritual quagmire. Out of the total of 27 books of the new testament, more than half is authored by Paul, as evidently seen from the "red letter Bible" where one will find every word alleged to have been uttered by Jesus in red ink and the rest in normal black, it is amazing that over ninety percent of the words are printed in black ink. Try and compare the two (red and black ink) you will find out the words that are confusing. So as i said, Paul brought you into this confusion and he gave you such excuses that if the holy spirit does not dwell in you, you will never understand. Let me state it to you once more that there is nothing difficult about Jesus message.

Barde.