Author Topic: Are Arab women defying and challenging established Islamic Orders  (Read 7125 times)

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Offline usman11

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I saw these two videos on youtube, and I get the sense that some kind of revolution is brewing in Arab countries as the women there are questioning and challenging what the Mullahs hold as Islamic teachings contained in the Koran. I have not seen Men dare to publicly question or challeng ideology like this. Is this just a case of many women being fed up with the status quo? What I notice from carefully viewing these links is that these women are not just debating with men or clerics, they are questioning Koranic teachings. In some cases, it is almost as if these women are saying, they reject any scriptural teaching that subjects them to any unequal treatment to men. When the men attempt to accuse them of 'heresy', they cleverly respond that it is for God to decide. Please watch the links below and give your thoughts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0DRlBa4KVI&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH12fGYrRqQ&feature=related

Offline Sani Danbaffa

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Re: Are Arab women defying and challenging established Islamic Orders
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2009, 02:31:04 PM »
Two very interesting clips indeed. I also wached several others in the same site "You Tube" and leant a lot more. Try the clips on Free Masons as well. It might give a lot more exposure to what is happening all over the world.
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Offline dan mama

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Re: Are Arab women defying and challenging established Islamic Orders
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2009, 06:25:14 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K54OkzXWig&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CI_X5iyFD0&feature=related
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 07:58:15 PM by dan mama »
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Offline Lawwali

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Re: Are Arab women defying and challenging established Islamic Orders
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2009, 03:42:19 PM »
I Found this thread Dis appointing. I think issue of this nature have been debated over and over again in some other threads. But Usman11, whatever he might want to achieve for coining this thread is entirely known to him alone or the crusade he is  championing, or may be to be fair to him, i will say he is complying to the advice given to him by DB, -the author of the other thread (on Arewa, Traditional & Ulamas)- to have his own thread.

But whatever might be the motives of Usman11, He should know some facts about islam: We were told in our scriptures that the enemy of islam will attack it right, left and center. And they will stop at nothing to achieve their goal (extermination of muslims and islam). And believe it or leave it those clips you posted are aimed to do that.
You should equally bear in mind, Islam is not the religion of unrestricted freedom, a muslim is expected to live in strict adharance to its dictates, and nothing less. But we also believe human short comings (that un intentional) are forgiveable by ALLAH. Anybody who calls himself a moderate muslim or whatever is nothing but an apologist to the western crude ideologies, and does so at his own peril, because islam does not recognise any categorisation of its followers. You may not see men responding to the views of those women which you called ideology. Because it is a nonesense, and nothing to do with Islam. Islamic teachings are as express as the word itself for any body to learn. the question of an arab woman leaving islam is as empty as a zero behind decimal point. We do not join issues with who challenges the foundation of the religion- the Qur'an.

You should also know that Islam views women as the most precious being in the society, you can look into the History of Islam nad its inception, you will see unprecedented liberation of women since morethan 1400 years ago. That is why islam prohibits unnecessary intermingling of women with unrelated men, and preserves them out of public scrutiny and stress of outside chores. A muslim thus is responsible fully for his wives' needs,(no matter wealthy the wives might be) and she is responsible for upbringing of the family. Her Rights are sacrosanct, that is why our prophet said "THE BEST AMONGST YOU IS HE WHO IS THE BEST TO HIS FAMILY" and this non-negotiable. But that do not refrain women from undertaking a lawfull business.

If allowing women to act as tools for adverts, sales promotions, sex workers, etc is what is called freedom, then am sorry, in Islam women have no freedom. And whoever is not comfortable with this is not a muslim. period.

More so islam is complete, not an iota of addition or ommission will go un noticed. No cleric or mullah can add or ommit a dot in its content, Nobody ever in islam has the right to allow prohibits an act except ALLAH through His prophets, and anything not that is NULL and AVOID to all extent.

I advise you to shine your eyes: One of the videos shows a former muslim forming an organisation called Arab for Israel. tell me, How logical is that with all the sufferings of the Arabs, an Arab will now champion the course of the Jews? It just like saying American organisation for the freedom of the trrorists, How logical do you find this?. That Egyptian-American or American-American or whatever she might call herself is a lier and a jews front, used to deceive unsuspecting browsers.

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Offline Lawwali

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Re: Are Arab women defying and challenging established Islamic Orders
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2009, 04:48:46 PM »
I later also realised why the woman cannot be responded to:
1. she challenges the Qu'anic provisions on roles of women, e.g wearing veils, which is so glaring in the Qur,an
2. She combined Bahrain's cultural practices with islamic teachings
3. She emphasized even wrong doings by men were approved by islam (remember our discussion on Divorce in this forum)

You are grown up enough to understand that she is not looking for solutions the women problem under islamic teaching, but to make cheap popularity. You know when some body blasphem Islam is a hero in the west, remember Salman Rushdie (L.A)?

just rest, it is a campaign of Blasphemy, But you are free to disagree.
it takes oppressed and oppressor for oppression to occur

Offline MySeLf

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Re: Are Arab women defying and challenging established Islamic Orders
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2009, 05:30:03 PM »
I get the sense that some kind of revolution is brewing in Arab countries as the women there are questioning and challenging what the Mullahs hold as Islamic teachings contained in the Koran. I have not seen Men dare to publicly question or challeng ideology like this. Is this just a case of many women being fed up with the status quo? What I notice from carefully viewing these links is that these women are not just debating with men or clerics, they are questioning Koranic teachings. In some cases, it is almost as if these women are saying, they reject any scriptural teaching that subjects them to any unequal treatment to men. When the men attempt to accuse them of 'heresy', they cleverly respond that it is for God to decide. Please watch the links below and give your thoughts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0DRlBa4KVI&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH12fGYrRqQ&feature=related


Then Usman what have you got to say about your so call liberated western women, members of your holy churches abandoned it all and adhering to guidance and teaching of Islam? Here is example:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdsnpEHySCg&feature=related
And also do watch other videos there where you will see more of your women taking off their mini skirts replacing them with Jilbabs, zipping up their cleavage adding Hijab or Burqa on the top....Why abandoning perfection.?


.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 10:40:10 PM by MySeLf »
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Offline HUSNAA

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Re: Are Arab women defying and challenging established Islamic Orders
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2009, 07:29:31 PM »
Well said Lawalli, MYSELF; Keep up the good work! Believe in Islam or dont, it doesnt alter any thing in the Plans of Allah SWT. The end of everything is that we are all going to go back to be judged by Allah SWT. Whatever you are, however you are, It is inevitable, you cant escape the Judgemet day. Noone is exempt and then we will all see the truth of our actions.
Ghafurallahi lana wa lakum

Offline usman11

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Re: Are Arab women defying and challenging established Islamic Orders
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2009, 05:19:14 AM »
Myself, I have watched this video and several like it. What is opinion? I think it is wonderful that people have the freedom and right to change their minds and follow any religious beliefs of their choice. The right to choose and not be intimidated, harrassed, or threatened is a fundamental human right and I support that right wholeheartedly. Notice also, that I have accused anyone for switching religion as an apostate, a liar, a western or islamist tool. I have not branded anyone ugly names for leaving one religion for another. Even if they leave and speak ill of what they believed before, so what? It is their opinion, and they should express it. I am not intimidated, and you claim not to be, but you are so spiteful and hateful of those that exercise the right. Why is that?

And you Lawwali, you went on and on last week and made a solemn declaration not to contribute anything anymore on this forum after you stuck your foot in your mouth by demeaning a perfectly constructive discussion by turning it into a personal confrontation. Why can't you just keep your word by limiting your participation to a read-only member? And why would you think I have any motive for introducing a topic? Dave posted a similar link and Dan Borno demanded that links like this be posted in a new thread. So where did I go wrong? Does it mean anytime anyone posts similar links or begins a new discussion that explores Islam, that individual must be viewed suspiciously because there might be motive? How do you live with that kind of apprehension by the way? And if questions or comments are made that you are opposed to or in disagreement with, then the commentator is automatically 'evil'. He or she is totally ignorant about Islam. If people cannot ask questions, how in this World are they supposed to learn this truth about Islam. Can't ask, can't question, can't think, can't scrutinize. If one does any of these things, they have an ulterior motive, or they are agents of the West seeking to discredit Islam. That is so childish. If one quotes a verse in the Koran to make a point, he/she has quoted out of context, even though the individual did in fact quote in context. So all these rules and restrictions leaves little or no room for someone to critically examine your beliefs.

Now when you say Islam or the Koran is so complete, what does that mean exactly? Any author will say his/her book is completely written as well. In the religious context, what does it mean when you say the koran is so complete? Was anyone arguing about its completion status? But more importantly, if you accuse someone of misundertacnding Islam, maybe it will do a lot of good, if you guys that are experts, would point out the areas of ignorance, and properly correct the misconception rather than making a vague declaration about the individual's knowledge of the subject matter. What I am saying is that you need to be specific. Unfortunately, I am a guy that asks tons of questions and I question anything until I am satisfied. You on the other hand, are terrified of questions. You find is invasive, and you treat them with great suspicion. That kind of suspicious, closed minded, and guarded attitude does not in any way create a better understanding of Islam. In my view, the words of God are not word to be defended suspiciously by men.
The word of God (if it is the word of God) is open to the World, and can be understood without much fanfare. It cannot be complicated to the extent that ordinary people always fail to comprehend its message. So with that said, what is the meaning of the koran being complete?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 06:23:48 AM by usman11 »

Offline Lawwali

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Re: Are Arab women defying and challenging established Islamic Orders
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2009, 10:57:33 AM »
Good Usman11, In the first place i might say that i wil not comment because i did not view the controversial clip, thereby i cannot allow myself to delve into discussion that might not yield results. Because most often in this forum we are fond of deviating from a subject matter.
Secondly, For many reasons part of which is sustained pressure, stigmatisation, descrimination, terrorisation, etc on muslims and Islam from the west (this you cannot deny) muslims are suspicious of anything coming from non-muslims and so on. You are a living witness to these.

And moreover, I did not and will not say nobody should ask questions regarding things He didnt understand in Islam, Islam have even encourage us to ask those who know (FAS ALUU AHLAZZIKRI IN KUNTUM LA TA'ALAMUNA) i.e ask those who knew if you did not know. And what i am emphasizing there is that one cannot Questions Islamic injuctions or provisions  just because they did not tally with his whims. Because we believe in that respect the piper will dictate the tune, ie since ALLAH is the creator HE alone dictates how we live. But am not objecting enquiry on issues that are not clear.

On your Question on completeness of Islam and or Qur'an, I mean as follows:
Qur'an and indeed Islam was revealed through a partcular messenger Muhammad (SAW), and Before His demise The  verse indicating the completeness of the reveleation and His time of Departure was revealed; in which ALLAH says "AND TODAY I COMPLETE FOR YOU YOUR RELIGION, AND I PERFECTED FOR YOU MY FAVORS AND AGREED FOR YOU ISLAM AS YOUR RELIGION". and before then the Messenger have told us that "Whoever innovate or did an act in this our religion which is not originally part of it, his innovation or act shall be left or returned to him".
These indicates that Islam does not entertains changes, ommissions or additions. I said this because, in the History of religions, some people (including clerics) ommits what did not tally with their whims, or add what they likes (I believe you know these); thus, confusing many things with the true religion. Also Because, some who calls themselves moderate muslims tries vehemently to add or ommit something in Islam such that (as they claims) Islam conforms with modern times, e.g they claims veils should be abandoned, women should not married untill they reach 20 years, that man should be allowed to marry a fellow man and all sort of what they calls freedom and equality.
I also mean (by completeness of Islam and Qur'an), there is nothing that a man or woman will not find within the arms of Islam, if that man or woman want to live a fulfill life, a life of essence and achieve salvation in the hereafter. Because, islam does not stand to give worldly life, but to prepare mankind for the hereafter, where there is eternal life, where all will reap what he sow, where no one will take burden but his own (not even for his parents, children,wife, constituency, or friends).

That is the meaning of completeness of Islam and or Qur'an.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 05:51:37 PM by Lawwali »
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Offline usman11

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Re: Are Arab women defying and challenging established Islamic Orders
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2009, 03:57:33 PM »
Lawwali, Ok, then. And I appreciate the way you've explained this so eloquently. I also have better undertanding on that phrase. Thanks for the clarification, and I respect that position. I am sure you would agree that in the world we live in, people are always going to question and scrutinize what they do not fully understand. As a matter of fact, they would sometimes ridicule those things they disbelieve, and religion happens to be on the recieving end of such ridicule. But what do we do? Do we become spiteful, angry, or even violent? No! We may have these feelings, but truly we cannot and should not act on those negative feelings for several reasons. The best thing that a religious person can do, is to educate, and even pray for the 'lost' that they may come to see the light. It is also veru important that those evanglising to others are cautious with their approach. If you start off condemning and attacking someone for their unbelief, they a great opportunity to guide them to the light may have been lost. If we kill them, nothing has been gained either because of we had won them over, that previously ubelieving person could have been a force in reaching other unbelievers. I think it would be to the delight of God, if more people are won over to the truth than being pushed away just because we failed to exercise the patience required.

In reference to people wanting to add or modify scriptures, that is something most people not wanting to conform with established religious principles always try to do. There are people that want to be part of a religion, yet they want to religion to conform to their own needs. It does not work that way. People have to conform to God's principles, and not the other way around. To give you an example, there are Gay people that want to be accepted in the Church. (By accepted, I mean their Gay lifestyle accepted by non Gay Christians) This has already caused some form of schism in the Evangelical Church. The conservative members of that Church clearly refuse to compromise from a doctrinal standpoint. They base their opposition to the Bible injuctions where God clearly condemns homosexuality with some very strong terms. However, these pro-gay people who have no defense or response to those Bible passage came up with this idea that since God is love, he loves everyone regardless. That may be true, but God does not condone sinful nature. So while Gay Christians are not able to rewrite or modify the Bible, they pick and choose what to read and what not to read, and that is self deception. My point is, this is how people add a twist to religion by adopting their own standards instead of conforming to the established standards.

What can be done? People still have to thread carefully. In some cases, these gay Christians, abandon or are cured if I can call it that, of their homosexuality, and actually turn against those in the Gay community. Look, there are complex things going on in the world. Some of those things have a supernatural twist to them, and some things we cannot fully understand. For instance, would you understand why a man would love another man, and prefer to be intimate with men only? While that kind of lifestyle may be a religious abomination, I have to be careful with how I deal with it around me. In the society I live in, one has to be Gay friendly these days.

When you said in your other post, that may Allah guide us to the light, it is true we need to pray for wisdom, for calmness, for direction, for good judgement, and for patience. I say this because, if we always react, and take matters into our hands in thinking we act on God's behalf, we may be going astray. How would we know if our actions are directed by God? So I agree with you, that we need to pray and let him be the guiding spirit in our lives.
So, in conclusion Lawwali, I say God bless you my brother, and thanks again for the spirit in which you took time to educate me on the question I asked.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 05:14:36 PM by usman11 »

Offline HUSNAA

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Re: Are Arab women defying and challenging established Islamic Orders
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2009, 07:03:41 AM »
I saw these two videos on youtube, and I get the sense that some kind of revolution is brewing in Arab countries as the women there are questioning and challenging what the Mullahs hold as Islamic teachings contained in the Koran. I have not seen Men dare to publicly question or challeng ideology like this. Is this just a case of many women being fed up with the status quo? What I notice from carefully viewing these links is that these women are not just debating with men or clerics, they are questioning Koranic teachings. In some cases, it is almost as if these women are saying, they reject any scriptural teaching that subjects them to any unequal treatment to men. When the men attempt to accuse them of 'heresy', they cleverly respond that it is for God to decide. Please watch the links below and give your thoughts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0DRlBa4KVI&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH12fGYrRqQ&feature=related


The first video is a non issue. The woman is not even a muslim. Or she was a former muslim who left Islam, for reasons known to her. I can tell you though that any person who was a muslim and leaves the religion, has never been well anchored in it from the beginning. There is no way that a child who has been well taught in Islamic principles and the five pillars and brought up in an Islamic atmosphere and ambience within the HOME and immediate society (neighborhood for example), would become a christian an atheist buddhist or anything else. Teaching and exposure to Islam at a very tender age is akin to building a sturdy tree that will remain rooted where it is despite all the various tsunamis and hurricanes blowing in every direction trying to uproot it. Those trees that were never firmly rooted, are the ones that get blown over by the wind and carried hither and thither and finally thrown somewhere in an  alien evironment, all damaged and beyond recognition. Likewise those without a good Islamic foundation are like driftwood or flotsam floatin on an ocean ann carried away by currents in any direction the current decides to shift. This is the description which fits ppl like this woman in your first video.
Secondly this first video is all about this woman denouncing the hostilities between the Arabs and the Jews. It has nothing to do with denunciation of Qur'anic injunctions and so on. Needless to say, like most of these anti Islamic clips on youtube, there is so much editing out parts which might serve to contradict the individual portrayed that the final cut that is shown on youtube is nothing short of propaganda and a partisan viewpoint.

The second video is of a Muslim broadcaster who is objecting to the Saudi'Arabian Ulamas ruling on women not appearing on TV. She is not objecting to any Islamic Sharia laws. YOU MUST GET THAT straight! The Sharia institutes dress codes for women and the woman has fully complied with the dress code, which is one of the  Commands in the Holy Qur'an:
 O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful. (Quran 33:59).
As you know there are many other Islamic nations where muslim women appear on TV. So its really a matter of what interpretation Ulamas think best fits the Qur'anic injunctions. The Saudian Ulamas feel that Hijab must be in totality. i.e. not exposing anything of a woman. There are many Islamic women who may not agree with this, but that is not to say that they are arguing against the religion itself or the teachings of the religion. They are protesting against what they feel maybe an extreme interpretation of the verses of the Holy Qur'an. In the time of the Prophet SAW, women go about their businesses out of the home environment. They go to the markets, they acted as wet nurses and midwives. During battles and skirmishes, they have been known to tend wounded soldiers in the battle fields. Likewise when the Prophet SAW was making the Hijrah from Makkah to Madinah in the company of his closest companion hadrat Abubakar (RA) he had to do so in secret because the Quraishi were looking for him in order to kill him. The Prophet (SAW) and hadrat Abubakar (RA) hid in a cave for a few days in order to let the momentum of the search for them to die down enough for them to continue with their journey. During that time, the daughter of hadrat Abubakar (RA) used to visit them at night and bring them food and water.
My point here is that women are allowed to go out in public. They have to be dressed according to the dictates of Islam. Going out in public entails being seen as a woman even if one's identity is not immediately established. The aim of Hijab is to safeguard both men and women against temptations of the flesh. Thus a woman appearing on TV in full hijab without makeup save for the kohl (I guess) cannot constitute a violation of the Qur'anic injunction against Hijab, because as far as anyone can see, women are sexless and unattractive in Hijab, anyone watching the news can  fully concentrate on the import of the woman's words rather than the expressions playing across her face.
So U11 (or U2) more aptly, your impression of muslim women going against Islam or its teachings is wrong, and I think you know it yourself, you were being tongue in cheek and provocative obviously. What the muslim women are protesting against are some of the more extreme and clearly man thought out injunctions enforced on women by some Ulamas, rulings like not driving a car or appearing on TV!!
Please remember that Islam ITSELF is flawless. What is flawed are the ppl following the religion and not the religion itself.
Ghafurallahi lana wa lakum

Offline Lawwali

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Re: Are Arab women defying and challenging established Islamic Orders
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2009, 02:08:11 PM »
Welldone Aunty Husnaa,
You are right in many senses, but i think Usman 11 is not provocative taking into account his last post, as he also indicated that he enquire to know more about Islam and you can see that he appreciated the explanations raised in my last post.

More over,apart from that video of saudi woman disagreeing with ulamas on women appearance on TV; there was a video of a Bahraini women right activist answering questions from a presenter of Al-Arabiyya TV of Bahrain, to this i think Usman11 is referring. Anyway, I responded to some issues raised by the woman and now you responded to the former well.

I think the issue can now be rested for a while.
Thanks to the Author of thread (Usman11) for his enquiries about islamic teachings and thanks to those who responded.

Cheers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
it takes oppressed and oppressor for oppression to occur

Offline Sani Danbaffa

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Re: Are Arab women defying and challenging established Islamic Orders
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2009, 05:19:03 PM »
I get the sense that some kind of revolution is brewing in Arab countries as the women there are questioning and challenging what the Mullahs hold as Islamic teachings contained in the Koran. I have not seen Men dare to publicly question or challeng ideology like this. Is this just a case of many women being fed up with the status quo? What I notice from carefully viewing these links is that these women are not just debating with men or clerics, they are questioning Koranic teachings. In some cases, it is almost as if these women are saying, they reject any scriptural teaching that subjects them to any unequal treatment to men. When the men attempt to accuse them of 'heresy', they cleverly respond that it is for God to decide. Please watch the links below and give your thoughts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0DRlBa4KVI&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH12fGYrRqQ&feature=related


Then Usman what have you got to say about your so call liberated western women, members of your holy churches abandoned it all and adhering to guidance and teaching of Islam? Here is example:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdsnpEHySCg&feature=related
And also do watch other videos there where you will see more of your women taking off their mini skirts replacing them with Jilbabs, zipping up their cleavage adding Hijab or Burqa on the top....Why abandoning perfection.?


.
That was what I mean by refering to the Free Masons pls see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyQ9kR6764k and find out much more. The idea and the Dajjals agents are everywhere and they try by all means to infiltrate your ranks!
Several of them seem to be part ofus very intimately!
Seek knowledge to be usefull to the society, help and spread happiness.

Offline MySeLf

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Re: Are Arab women defying and challenging established Islamic Orders
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2009, 11:06:55 PM »

That was what I mean by refering to the Free Masons pls see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyQ9kR6764k 

Very educative......!
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