Author Topic: SHARIAH IN THE BIBLE  (Read 11657 times)

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Offline Barde

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SHARIAH IN THE BIBLE
« on: May 24, 2003, 08:35:07 AM »
?In fact my interest in writing about this topic became necessary as a result of some misconceptions about muslim's ways of life,resulting in castigation,denunciations and negative propagander against shariah and muslims.

Ever since Governor Ahmad Sani of Zamfara state annouced the intention to introduce Shariah legal system (criminal aspect) ,the media and christians did not also help matters with their negative reports and labelling of anything islamic.

WHAT SHARIAH IS

shariah means path to take or to follow.By the Shariah of God is meant that everything is legislated by Allah for ordering man's life,it includes the principles of believe,Administration,justice,Morality,Human relations and principles of life.

SHARIAH'S OBJECTIVES

To cater for interest of people,relieve them from hardships,to promote their welfare to safe guard their faith,intellect,mercy,posterity and their prosperity.Infact shariah is all about justice,mercy and wisdom.Therefore anything that departs from justice to oppression,from mercy to harshness,from welfare to misery,from wisdom to folly,has nothing to do with shariah.

COMPARATIVE ANALYSIS

The christians and their media systems accuse shariah of wickedness,barbarism,brutality,etc.They might as well be condenming their God,His laws and percepts,albeit unknowingly.let us examine some examples.

MURDER CASE

Qur'an[ 2:178] prescribes life for life,but if victims relations so desire,they may collect compensation and allow the murderer to live.
The bible says "THOU SHALL NOT KILL" Exodus [20:13].But what about the punishment for those who violet this commandment?the bible says:
THOSE WHO STRIKES A MAN SO THAT HE DIES SHALL BE PUT TO DEATH [Exodus 21:12]
"YOUR LIFE SHALL NOT PITY,IT SHALL BE LIFE FOR LIFE,EYE FOR EYE,TOOTH FOR TOOTH,HAND FOR HAND,FOOT FOR FOOT"[Deutreronomy 19:21]

But a christian will say these are laws of Moses in the old testament in contradistinction to the law of love preached by Jesus in the new testament.We ask the question:Who is the God of the old and new testament?Is it one and the same God or are they two different Gods?Or does the God of the old testament chage his mind in the new testament?christians should provide answers.But the Bible says:

"AND YOU ARE TO TEACH THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL ALL THE STATUTES (LAWS) WHICH THE LORD HAS SPOKEN TO THEM BY MOSES"[Leviticus 10:11]

"IT IS A STATUTE (LAW) FOR EVER THROUGH OUT YOUR GENERATIONS"[Leviticus 23:41]

"SO YOU SHALL REMEMBER AND DO ALL MY COMMANDMENTS,AND BE HOLY TO YOUR GOD"[Numbers15:40]

But"IF YOU ARE NOT CAREFUL TO DO ALL THE WORDS OF THIS LAW WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK...THEN THE LORD WILL BRING ON YOU AND YOUR OFFSRING,EXTRAORDINARY AFFLICTIONS SEVERE AND LASTING,AND SICKNESS GRIEVIOUS AND LASTING"[Deutronomy 28:58,59].

Christians should remember what God says in Malachi 3:6
"FOR I THE LORD DO NOT CHANGE"
 
Because the laws in the old testament were still effective during Jesus time,he said:

THINK NOT THAT I HAVE COME TO ABOLISH THE LAW AND PROPHET,I HAVE COME NOT TO ABOLISH THEM BUT TO FULFIL THEM.FOR TRULY,I SAY TO YOU,TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH ?PASS AWAY,NOT AN IOTA NOT A DOT,WILL PASS FROM THE LAW UNTIL ALL IS ACCOMPLISHED.WHOEVER THEN RELAXES ONE OF THE LEAST OF THESE COMMANDMENTS AND TEACHES MEN SO,SHALL BE LEAST IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN,BUT HE WHO DOES THEM AND TEACHES THEM SHALL BE CALLED GREAT IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN[Mathew 5:17-19].

THEFT CASE:

The Qur'an says:
AS TO THE THIEF MALE OR FEMALE,CUT OFF HIS OR HER HANDS,A RETRIBUTION FOR THEIR DEED AND EXEMPLARY PUNISHMENT FROM ALLAH...
BUT IF THE THIEF REPENTS AFTER HIS CRIME AND AMEND HIS CONDUCT,ALLAH TURNETH TO HIM IN FOREGIVENESS,FOR ALLAH IS OFT-FORGIVING,MOST MERCIFUL[Qur'an 5:38,39]

However the Bible prescribes that:
IF A MAN STEALS...HE SHALL BE MAKE RESTITUTION,IF HE HAS NOTHING,HE SHALL BE SOLD FOR HIS THEFT (IN TO SLAVERY) [Exodus 22:1-3]

WOE TO THE WORLD FOR TEMPTATION TO SIN.FOR IT IS NECESSARY THAT TEMPTATION COME,BUT WOE TO THE MAN BY WHOM TEMPTATION COMES.IF YOUR HAND OR FOOT CAUSES YOU TO SIN,CUT IT OFF AND THROW IT AWAY,IT IS BETTER FOR YOU TO ENTER LIFE MAIMED OR LAMED THAN WITH TWO HANDS OR TWO FEETS TO BE THROWN IN TO THE FIRE. AND IF YOUR EYE CAUSES YOU TO SIN,PLUCK IT OUT THROW IT AWAY.[Mathew 18:7-9]


ADULTERY AND FORNICATION

Shariah prescribes that fornicators be given hundred strokes of the cane and adulterers and adulteresses should be stoned to death.[Qur'an 24:2 and sahihal bukhari vol 8/6814] in the case of fornicators and adulterers respectively.
The Bible says:

"YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY"[Exodus 20:14] AND IF A MAN SEDUCES A VIRGIN...AND LIES WITH HER HE SHALL MAKE HER HIS WIFE[Exodus 22:16]
And "IF A MAN COMMITS ADULTERY WITH THE WIFE OF HIS NEIGHBOUR,BOTH THE ADULTERER AND THE ADULTERESS SHALL BE PUT TO DEATH.THE MAN WHO LIES WITH HIS FATHER'S WIFE HAS UNCOVERED HIS FATHER'S NAKEDNESS,BOTH OF THEM SHALL BE PUT TO DEATH... IF A MAN LIES WITH HIS DAUTHER-IN-LAW,BOTH OF THEM SHALL BE PUT TO DEATH...IF A MAN LIES WITH A MALE AS WITH A WOMAN [i.e Homosexuality]...THEY SHALL BE PUT TO DEATH. [Leviticus 20:10-13]


USURY

Shariah prohibits usury in a very strong terms[see Qur'an 2:275-281].The Bible also says"YOU SHALL NOT LEND YOUR MONEY AT INTEREST"

PROPER DRESS CODE (VEIL OR HIJAB)

What the Qur'an says will be found in chapter 24:31 and chapter 33:59.
The bible also prescribes modest and sensible apperel and befit women who profess religion [1 Timothy 2:9,10]
The Bible also says:
 
"FOR IF A WOMAN WILL NOT VEIL HERSELF,THEN SHE SHOULD CUT OF HER HAIR,BUT IF IT IS DISGRACEFUL FOR A WOMAN TO BE SHORN OR SHAVEN,LET HER WEAR A VEIL...THAT IS ?WHY ?A WOMAN OUGHT TO HAVE A VEIL ON HER HEAD,BECAUSE OF THE ANGELS."[1 Corinthians 11:6 and 10]

The Bible also prescribes that women should keep silent in the church,that it is a shameful thing for a woman to speak in the church,that even if she had any question,her husband should ask on her behalf.(1 Conrintians 14:34,35).
But what happens now adays you ?even see pastors that are women.


From the fore going,we see that true christians ought to support Shariah rather than stigmatising and opposing it to the extend of fighting and killing their fellow humanbeings.
Infact,they are suppose to clamour for the implementation of their on version of Shariah which is more sensible.However,Shariah is for those who truly and sincerely serve and worship God.

Maassalam.


































































 ?
im

Offline Muhammad

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Re: SHARIAH IN THE BIBLE
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2003, 05:09:40 PM »
Mallam Barde
It is not entirely true that Sharia exists in the Bible. What exists in the Old Bible (torah) is God's law sent down to Musa known as the Ten commandments. With the coming of Muhammad(SAW) those laws became obsolete and only the law of the Quran and sunnah are valid in Allah's court.
May Allah guide us all.

Offline Barde

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Re: SHARIAH IN THE BIBLE
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2003, 02:21:25 AM »
Quote
Mallam Barde
It is not entirely true that Sharia exists in the Bible. What exists in the Old Bible (torah) is God's law sent down to Musa known as the Ten commandments. With the coming of Muhammad(SAW) those laws became obsolete and only the law of the Quran and sunnah are valid in Allah's court.
May Allah guide us all.
Assalamu alaikum,
First of all,i am not up to the status ?of a Mallam,am only an almajiri on a learning process.

Secondly,i think brother Amin did not read or understand what i wrote.I didn't say we should discard the Holy Qur'an and start implementing what the bible is saying,I just compared what the Holy Qur'an and the bible are saying about shariah.

Considering the kind opposition shariah is receiving from christians that's why i decided to remaind them what they are antagonising is there in their bible.

Prominent scholars like Ahmad Deedat,Imam Hamza Yusuf,Sheik Faisal are always emphasing the use of bible against the christians,you cannot convince a christian by quoting verses from the Holy Qur'an alone because he does not believe in it,you can only convince him by quoting from the bible. I don't have to tell the importance of Da'awah in islam.

Bible (injeel) is among the books that were revealed by ALLAH (SWT),so it's obligatory to believe in it eventhough the present day bible is been concocted but there are still some verses in the bible that corresponds to the verses in the Holy qur'an.Below are some examples of such verses.

(1).He(ProphetMuhammad s.a.w) does not speak of his own desire,it is no less than an inspiration sent down to him,he was taugh by one mighty in power. (Qur'an 53 verse 3-5)
This is the corresponding verse in the bible,
I will rise them up a prophet from among their brethren,like on to thee and i will put my words in his mouth and he can speak unto them all that i shall command him.   (Deutronomy 18:18)

(2).and giving glad tidings of a messenger to come after me,whose name shall be Ahmad.(qur'an 61:6)
This is what the bible is says
And i pray the father and he shall give you another comforter,that he may abide with you forever.(john14:16)

My brothers the the list of such verses are endless,We just have to believe in those verses that conform to the Holy qur'an.I stand to be corrected.Allah(s.w.t.) knows best.

Ma'assalam.
im

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Re: SHARIAH IN THE BIBLE
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2003, 03:31:44 PM »
Hello Barde,
That is a nice piece but just clear your conceptions about somethings:
1. Bible and Injil are not the same: While Bible is the collection of booklet written by jews and their prophets (?) consisting of their history, quatations from Holy Books (Injil, Torah, Psalms, etc). It consist of 2 parts ie Old and New Testaments. New Testament narrated the story of Jesus and contains some quatation from Injil (Gospel) as preached by him (supposed!). The Old Testament contain the stories of Jewish Kingdoms and Kings, Prophets and Prophecies with quatations from older scriptures. Check the Bible yourself and find many examples.
2. Christian are not living under any Law, but they are under the grace. Just believe in Jesus as your saviour and you are saved. Nothing else! Salvation is cheap in Christianity. All the supposed quotation from Bible is from the old testament before the coming of the Christ. So understand Christianity before you start thinking they have Sharia.
3. There is nowhere in the Quran where it is said the married adulterer/ess should be stoned to death. The Quranic verse you quoted only talked about canning irrespective of marital status. I dont know where muslims get that injuction that claimed the life of innocent people and causing a lot of controversy in the Sharia implementation in Northern Nigeria. Most likely from the Bible! :o

Offline Eskimo

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Re: SHARIAH IN THE BIBLE
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2003, 03:43:19 PM »
Hi
Don?t mind Christians, so many things they do just reflects their hatred to Islam.
They will deny everything U tell me them even if they know it is true.
They live under grace! Hahaha? not law! Does that means they are lawless. I wonder.
They muslims also have their fault. Why do we have to copy their laws-STONING TO DEATH! It sound jewish to me also as I cant find it in Quran myself.
color=blue]NOBODY is PERFECT and I am NOBODY.[/color]

Offline lionger

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Re: SHARIAH IN THE BIBLE
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2003, 10:59:40 AM »
Very good work Barde! ?I am a Christian, and I am one of those people (in fact the only person) who has challenged Northern Nigeria's Sharia on this forum; maybe you know that already ?;D. Now what I'm about to say may be quite long, but, well u earned it!

You have mentioned several verses that seemingly assert that Christians shuold follow Sharia. But as I told AbuMujahid a while back, Christians do not live under any law, but by the grace of God thru Jesus Christ. In other words, we are not saved because we obey rules or do good deeds, but because we believe in Jesus. Now that does not mean we are free to do whatever we like - and this is also for you Eskimo. We are freed from sin, but have now become 'slaves to righteousness':

Romans 6:15-19: 'What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey - whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness...You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

This righteousness comes from believing in Jesus. The word Christian actually means 'Christ-like' and as such, Christians follow the example Jesus set when He was on earth. Now to show you the power of this grace to cover all sins, I will debunk your arguments and passages with Jesus' words and even some examples in the old testament! I'll start by showing you the impossibility of obtaining righteousness through the law.

First of all, the law God gave Moses was cumbersome by all standards. It went way past the ten commandments; try reading the book of Leviticus. Much of the Old testament proves that Israel failed woefully in keeping this law. Secondly, the law stated that if one of the commandments were broken, then all were broken (I can't find the exact verse in the Bible yet). Thirdly, the law states that the soul that sins will die, and that each man will die for his own sin (Ezekiel 18:20). Finally, God says that all our righteousness is like filthy rags before Him (Isaiah 64:6). Conclusion: everyone's a sinner and will suffer condemnation.

To compound things even further, Jesus adds a new dimension to the interpretation of the law in Matthew 6. To the Murder case, Jesus says this:
'You have heard...anyone who murders will be subject to judgement. But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgement...anyone who says, 'You are a fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.' Matthew 6:21,22.
To adultery he says:
'...anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.' Matthew 6:28.

But slowly Jesus begins to introduce the 'law of love' as you said. In response to 'an eye for and eye', which you quoted, Jesus says: '...do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tonic, give him your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.' Matthew 6:39-42. Later Jesus even goes as far as saying, 'love your enemies'!

The power of love to cover all sins is demonstrated again in John 8:3-11 when the Pharisees bring an adulterous woman to Jesus. He challenges those w/out sin to throw the first stone, and when their consciences force them to leave her alone, He say: 'Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more.'

Again, in Matthew 12, Jesus is asked why his disciples (who were hungry) are breaking Sabbath laws by harvesting and eating heads of grain on the Sabbath day. He reminded them of the time David and his followers went into the temple and ate consecrated beard - reserved fro priests and unlawful for others - and yet were held innocent! He mentions the fact that priests desecrated the temple on the Sabbath days, yet were guiltless, and finally quotes the Old Testament again: ' I desire mercy, not sacrifice' (Hosea 6:6).

What this shows is that even in the Law that so eloquently produced Sharia as you pointed out, there was a foreboding of the grace that was to come through Christ. Note that in all this Jesus never broke the Law; true to his words in Matthew 5:17, which you quoted.

As He was sinless, only His sacrifice was acceptable before God in stead of the condemnation of all human beings. Just as Adam's disobedience brought sin and separated the whole world from God, Christ's obedience brings us back to God - if we accept it. We are no under an obligation to fulfil the law ?because Christ has fulfilled it; (Matthew 5:17-19 -remember ur quotation?). This is the belief of a Christian.

Finally, 1 Peter 4: 8 ?- 'love covers a multitude of sins'. Jesus was popular among 'sinners' and society outcasts because he loved them, unlike the pharisees who through their steadfast observance of the law, thought it fit to look down on and condemn others. Just like Nigeria's Sharia which I said will make victims of the poor masses and satisfy the ambitions of power-hungry politicians. The Christian attitude to Sharia is well summed up in Jesus' own words: 'he who is without sin should cast the first stone. How can we compel others to a law that we ourselves cannot keep? Instead of amputation, flogging and death by stoning (punishment and condemnation), why can't we provide programs that will take care of these ppl and enable them to stand on their feet (love and mercy)?

I haven't forgotten your comments on women; and I have an answer for that, but I don't want to go into that now because this post is already too long. For now I'll say that If you read the verses b4 and after your first quotation on the subject, u'll see that it concerns propriety in worshipping Christ. It is not a dress code for women in the workplace, on the streets or even at home. I might reply your other quotations on a separate post or even a PM. But brace yourself - ?it may require a higher level of thinking on your part ;D

Offline Barde

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Re: SHARIAH IN THE BIBLE
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2003, 08:50:56 PM »
Your replies are very interesting,let me start with the issue of Bible and injeel,islamically they are the same, if not because of the adulteration of the bible by christians.Injeel is the holy book revealed to prophet Isa(jesus)alaihissalam through which islam was propagated to the jews during the era of prophet Isa.The book disclosed how jesus called his people (jews)to islamic monothism(oneness of ALLAH S.W.T) as evident from the verses.There are so many interpolations in the present day bible(s)hence the difference.

If at all christians do not live under any law then what can you say about the verses i quoted from the bible (mathew 5:17_19)Jesus even emphasised it to his people in (mathew 5_21) which states and i quote, You have heard that the LAW OF MOSES (emphasis mine) says do not murder, if you commit murder,you are subject to judgement.(mathew 5_21),as lionger rightly quoted,If i may ask,which laws and judgement was Jesus refering to? I need some explanations please.What lionger quoted about grace or whatever was just an admornition as to how his(jesus) followers should coexist,but once any body violet any of the laws he is subjected to the punishment,You will agree with me that if at christians do not live under any law,jesus would'nt have wasted his time telling them of any law(s) in the new(modernised)testament.Infact muslims loves jesus more than the christians.

From my discussions with alot of chrisians,i was made to understand that, what they believe and practice is contrary to what the bible is saying.Because of time constraint i can only mention two examples, ?

1(a).When Jesus was asked about the important commandment ?his answer was and i quote, Hear oh israel! Our lord God is the one and only lord. (Mark 13vrs21)

(b).Jesus said and i quote,This is the way to have eternal life - to know you,the one and only true God and Jesus christ the one you sent to earth.(john 17vrs3)

Considering the above verses, Jesus emphasised on monotheism,he didn't say there are three GOds in one (wa iyyazhu billah) as most of the christian denominations believe.
The second example is how Jesus christ prayed during his life time which contradict how christiantians are performing their prayers,As stated below.
" He went on a little farther and fell FACE DOWN ON THE GROUND. (emphasis mine) He prayed that if it were possible,the awful hour awaiting him might pass him by".(mark 14vrs35).
 ?My brothers, i don't have to tell you how christians are praying now adays.I will present some more examples to this forum as soon as i finish compiling them inshaAllah.

The issue of shariah implementation,christians are just meddling in to something that does not affect them,like the case of Safiya Hussaini and Amina Lawan, more over the christians are ignorant of what shariah is all about, I dont see any reason why a muslim will not be allowed to practice something that he has been created for,more over our constitution allows that.There are so many courts,no christian will be prosecuted under shariah law,Shariah is so considered that it's allows the sell of alcohol in some places for the fact that there are some verses in the bible which allows christians to drink.They should just mind their own business and allow muslims to live according to  how ALLAH (SWT)decreed.
Shariah is suprem nobody have any right to change or modify it,once you are a muslim the laws are biding on you,so the issue of providing an alternative or any programme does not arise.

The evidence for the adulterers can be found in sahih Albukhari (vol 8,hadith 805).
 
lionger,am waiting for your comment about what i said concerning women.
im

Offline Barde

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Re: SHARIAH IN THE BIBLE
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2003, 10:41:00 PM »
Quote
Hi
Don?t mind Christians, so many things they do just reflects their hatred to Islam.
They will deny everything U tell me them even if they know it is true.
They live under grace! Hahaha? not law! Does that means they are lawless. I wonder.
They muslims also have their fault. Why do we have to copy their laws-STONING TO DEATH! It sound jewish to me also as I cant find it in Quran myself.

Muslims are not really copying from christians,All the laws are from the same source that's why there are similarities.The evidence of stoning to death can be found in hadith(sayings,deeds,and approvals accurately narrated from the prophet S.A.W).Sahih Albukhari vol 8 hadith 805.
im

Offline lionger

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Re: SHARIAH IN THE BIBLE
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2003, 03:35:12 AM »
BARDE,
Thanks for your reply. On women:

I have already replied to your first quotation on the subject. It concerns the dress code of women while praying/worshipping Christ. Not a universal 'any time, any place' dress code. The Bible certainly preaches sensible wholesome dressing for both sexes. I can't stress that point enough. Not the sort of stuff we see Hollywood actresses wearing these days.

Now to your other point, which can be found in II Timothy. Yes, the Bible says so, no doubt about it. But then why do we read in Acts 21:9 of ?Philip the evangelist's four daughters who prophecied? Or in the old testament of women like Huldah the prophetess ( II Kings 22:14), and Deborah (Judges 4, 5)? Why would God pour His Spirit on women if He really didn't want them to say anything in church?

The part-answer to this question lies in the understanding of one very important verse, which is mentioned more than once in the New Testament: I Corinthians 6:12, 10:23 - 'Everything is permissible - but not everything is beneficial.' This is one absolute truth (in moral and spiritual terms) that guides the actions of Christians. The first time this quote is mentioned (I Cor. 6:12), Paul was talking about abstinence from sexual immorality. At the second instance, he was talking about not offending other Christians' moral ?or even cultural sensibilities, without giving in to sin or breaking the Faith. The latter point is very important. Christianity naturally comes in conflict with some of our cultural habits, some of which definitely have to give way to the Faith - human sacrifice, idol worship etc. Others remain within a Christian context - ?and this applies to the position of women in the society.

So ask yourself: What good is it if a woman stands up in church and lectures, in a time and place where women are strongly viewed as the lesser sex? Not much benefit. And the Bible says, 'Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil' (Romans 14:16.) In the passage surrouding this verse, Paul was talking about the same subject in the passage after I Cor 10:23. So you see, the verse in II Timothy was for the sake of peace in the church, and denotes the societal norms of the time.

But what about Philip's four daughters, Huldah and Deborah? The following three verses answer this question. Romans 8: 13 - "...those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God." This Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit (the third in the Trinity), sent to empower Christians to live the life that Jesus lived. Jesus, being the Son of God, was filled with the Spirit, and as such He was able to do the things He did. So those who are led by the Spirit are covered by grace and are above societal rules and values: Galatians 5:18 - '.But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.'' Therefore if a Spirit-filled woman stands up and delivers a message in church, she has not sinned. If those who are listening are also filled with the Spirit, they will not take offense cuz they will know that God is talking. This is the freedom I was talking about in my last post. 'Where the Spirit of God is, there is freedom.' II Corinthians 3:17.

Finally, if you had read further down that passage where you derived your first quote on women's dress code, you would have discovered this verse:
'In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman.' I Cor. 11:11.

Offline lionger

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Re: SHARIAH IN THE BIBLE
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2003, 05:07:39 AM »
Quote

If at all christians do not live under any law then what can you say about the verses i quoted from the bible (mathew 5:17_19)Jesus even emphasised it to his people in (mathew 5_21) which states and i quote, You have heard that the LAW OF MOSES (emphasis mine) says do not murder, if you commit murder,you are subject to judgement.(mathew 5_21),as lionger rightly quoted,If i may ask,which laws and judgement was Jesus refering to? I need some explanations please.What lionger quoted about grace or whatever was just an admornition as to how his(jesus) followers should coexist,but once any body violet any of the laws he is subjected to the punishment,You will agree with me that if at christians do not live under any law,jesus would'nt have wasted his time telling them of any law(s) in the new(modernised)testament. Infact muslims loves jesus more than the christians.

I have already explained Matthew 5:17-19 but you are still confused. If you had read further down to verse 20, you would have seen this: "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." The Pharisees and teachers of the law were the closest anyone at the time could come to perfection in fulfilling the Law. Yet Jesus is saying one has to be even holier to get into God's kingdom! Why? To explain what He meant by that, Jesus went on to give a new interpretation of parts of the law (Matthew 5:21 and the rest of that chapter). Under this new light, it is easy to see that the Pharisees were obviously lacking.

The law Jesus was talking about was the law that God gave Moses, and the law by which the Jews of Jesus' time lived. They of course lived by the law as a means of obtaining righteousness. As such, Jesus talked to them about the commandments. If the Pharisees were not good enough for God's Kingdom, then no-one was, and all were subject to judgement. What judgement? God's judgement on all sinners as a result of sin: death. By this I don't just mean physical death, also spiritual death - eternal separation from God(Matthew 5: 22, the last sentence). So we accept Jesus' covering, the one man who never sinned, and offered to take our punishment out of love. Read again the second and third paragraphs of my first post, and note my narrative of Jesus and the adulterous woman later.

On monotheism: Your first quote cannot be found in Mark 13:21. Anyways, the trinity nature of God is a complicated matter that many Christians do not fully undestand. I myself cannot confess to understanding it completely. Sometimes Christians have to submit to God's sovereign nature and accept His Word at face value. Proverbs 25:2 says 'It is the glory of God to conceal a matter." However, you should read John 1. It starts by saying: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." 13 verses later, "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us" obviously referring to Jesus. In other words, Jesus is the Word and is God.
Finally, note Matthew 28:19 where Jesus was giving his disciples final instructions - 'Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..".

Finally on prayer: note how Jesus prayed in John 12:27, or in John 17:1. My friend, Jesus never prescribed a particular posture for prayer. You can pray while standing, sitting, even lying down, walking, any posture. See once again, my friend, freedom! Freedom under God's grace!

Offline al_hamza

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Re: SHARIAH IN THE BIBLE
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2003, 04:16:07 PM »
Excelent work barde,but look at the flock that will litsen to you first.
you cant start playing arabian music in front of a chinese audience.
what i am trying to say is your work was beautiful.
God knows where u get yur information but i would like to go through them, is there any site regarding this stuff? hope so.
hmmmmmm
but barde should we really try to teach christians through thier own book?? reflecting things in the Holy Qur'an?
 I guess thats highly dangerous because as we know the Bible is highly adulterated. They have the new version, old version, new testament old testament, bla bla bla they have mixed up thier religion so much that by the time we qoute something from one book, another has a contradicting version.

So at-least we got our own book.

As for the eskimo of ng. man where are the snow deserts were u are supposed to live?

Qur'an has a whole lot of information, But things that miss out which we would want to know and are not available or too hard to understand are simplified in the Hadiths. Better grab one of these imam's books . Shafi'i,Hanafi,Hambali or my favorite... Muwatta Imam Malik.

Yes, its very piuos of you to read the Qur'an with translation but its better you go step wise. Try to understand your religion first. What is it that we ought to do and what not.

i will wait for a positive or negative reply.
Ali Hamza
ABILUNAH? SABILUNAH? AL-JIHAD! AL-JIHAD!

Offline Barde

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Re: SHARIAH IN THE BIBLE
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2003, 06:09:39 AM »
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BARDE,
Thanks for your reply. On women:

I have already replied to your first quotation on the subject. It concerns the dress code of women while praying/worshipping Christ. Not a universal 'any time, any place' dress code. The Bible certainly preaches sensible wholesome dressing for both sexes. I can't stress that point enough. Not the sort of stuff we see Hollywood actresses wearing these days.

Now to your other point, which can be found in II Timothy. Yes, the Bible says so, no doubt about it. But then why do we read in Acts 21:9 of ?Philip the evangelist's four daughters who prophecied? Or in the old testament of women like Huldah the prophetess ( II Kings 22:14), and Deborah (Judges 4, 5)? Why would God pour His Spirit on women if He really didn't want them to say anything in church?

The part-answer to this question lies in the understanding of one very important verse, which is mentioned more than once in the New Testament: I Corinthians 6:12, 10:23 - 'Everything is permissible - but not everything is beneficial.' This is one absolute truth (in moral and spiritual terms) that guides the actions of Christians. The first time this quote is mentioned (I Cor. 6:12), Paul was talking about abstinence from sexual immorality. At the second instance, he was talking about not offending other Christians' moral ?or even cultural sensibilities, without giving in to sin or breaking the Faith. The latter point is very important. Christianity naturally comes in conflict with some of our cultural habits, some of which definitely have to give way to the Faith - human sacrifice, idol worship etc. Others remain within a Christian context - ?and this applies to the position of women in the society.

So ask yourself: What good is it if a woman stands up in church and lectures, in a time and place where women are strongly viewed as the lesser sex? Not much benefit. And the Bible says, 'Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil' (Romans 14:16.) In the passage surrouding this verse, Paul was talking about the same subject in the passage after I Cor 10:23. So you see, the verse in II Timothy was for the sake of peace in the church, and denotes the societal norms of the time.

But what about Philip's four daughters, Huldah and Deborah? The following three verses answer this question. Romans 8: 13 - "...those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God." This Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit (the third in the Trinity), sent to empower Christians to live the life that Jesus lived. Jesus, being the Son of God, was filled with the Spirit, and as such He was able to do the things He did. So those who are led by the Spirit are covered by grace and are above societal rules and values: Galatians 5:18 - '.But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.'' Therefore if a Spirit-filled woman stands up and delivers a message in church, she has not sinned. If those who are listening are also filled with the Spirit, they will not take offense cuz they will know that God is talking. This is the freedom I was talking about in my last post. 'Where the Spirit of God is, there is freedom.' II Corinthians 3:17.

Finally, if you had read further down that passage where you derived your first quote on women's dress code, you would have discovered this verse:
'In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman.' I Cor. 11:11.


Lionger,
I knew it wasn't enough that's why i said,i was waiting for your reply.
Thanks for revealing to us that christianity is restricted only during prayers.For clearity,permit me to requote the verse in question. "So a woman should wear a covering on her head as a sign of authority because the angels are watching" (1corinthians 11:10)
Does that means the angels are only with you while praying?since according to what you said,the verse is applicable only when women are praying/worshipping.
Now, coming to the questions you asked me pertaining to women speaking in the church,i think you are in a better position to give us explanations as to why the discrepancies between the verses,some are saying women should speak in the church while others are saying they shouldn't.Remember the bible says "God is the authour of comfusion".
Thanx once more,this has no doubt added to my catalogue of contradictions in the bible(s).

By the way,i was reading through the bible yesternight,i came across some verses that will help in confuting the christians about leaving under any law.
"But i say if you are angry with someone,you are subject to judgement,if you call someone idiot,you are in danger of being brought before the high council and if you curse someone you are in danger of the fires of hell"(matthew5:22).
"Come to terms quickly with your enemy before it is too late and you are dragged in to court,handed to an officer and thrown to jail"(matthew5:25).
and hear what the golden rule says,
"Do for others what you would like them to do for you,this is the summary of the law and prophets"(matthew 7:12)

Now,if at all christians do not live under any law,what brought the issue of courts,high council and the law it self?in the afore mentioned verses from the bible.
im

Offline Barde

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Re: SHARIAH IN THE BIBLE
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2003, 02:46:48 AM »
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I have already explained Matthew 5:17-19 but you are still confused. If you had read further down to verse 20, you would have seen this: "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." The Pharisees and teachers of the law were the closest anyone at the time could come to perfection in fulfilling the Law. Yet Jesus is saying one has to be even holier to get into God's kingdom! Why? To explain what He meant by that, Jesus went on to give a new interpretation of parts of the law (Matthew 5:21 and the rest of that chapter). Under this new light, it is easy to see that the Pharisees were obviously lacking.

The law Jesus was talking about was the law that God gave Moses, and the law by which the Jews of Jesus' time lived. They of course lived by the law as a means of obtaining righteousness. As such, Jesus talked to them about the commandments. If the Pharisees were not good enough for God's Kingdom, then no-one was, and all were subject to judgement. What judgement? God's judgement on all sinners as a result of sin: death. By this I don't just mean physical death, also spiritual death - eternal separation from God(Matthew 5: 22, the last sentence). So we accept Jesus' covering, the one man who never sinned, and offered to take our punishment out of love. Read again the second and third paragraphs of my first post, and note my narrative of Jesus and the adulterous woman later.

On monotheism: Your first quote cannot be found in Mark 13:21. Anyways, the trinity nature of God is a complicated matter that many Christians do not fully undestand. I myself cannot confess to understanding it completely. Sometimes Christians have to submit to God's sovereign nature and accept His Word at face value. Proverbs 25:2 says 'It is the glory of God to conceal a matter." However, you should read John 1. It starts by saying: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." 13 verses later, "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us" obviously referring to Jesus. In other words, Jesus is the Word and is God.
Finally, note Matthew 28:19 where Jesus was giving his disciples final instructions - 'Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..".

Finally on prayer: note how Jesus prayed in John 12:27, or in John 17:1. My friend, Jesus never prescribed a particular posture for prayer. You can pray while standing, sitting, even lying down, walking, any posture. See once again, my friend, freedom! Freedom under God's grace!
im

Offline Barde

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Re: SHARIAH IN THE BIBLE
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2003, 06:43:44 AM »
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I have already explained Matthew 5:17-19 but you are still confused. If you had read further down to verse 20, you would have seen this: "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." The Pharisees and teachers of the law were the closest anyone at the time could come to perfection in fulfilling the Law. Yet Jesus is saying one has to be even holier to get into God's kingdom! Why? To explain what He meant by that, Jesus went on to give a new interpretation of parts of the law (Matthew 5:21 and the rest of that chapter). Under this new light, it is easy to see that the Pharisees were obviously lacking.

The law Jesus was talking about was the law that God gave Moses, and the law by which the Jews of Jesus' time lived. They of course lived by the law as a means of obtaining righteousness. As such, Jesus talked to them about the commandments. If the Pharisees were not good enough for God's Kingdom, then no-one was, and all were subject to judgement. What judgement? God's judgement on all sinners as a result of sin: death. By this I don't just mean physical death, also spiritual death - eternal separation from God(Matthew 5: 22, the last sentence). So we accept Jesus' covering, the one man who never sinned, and offered to take our punishment out of love. Read again the second and third paragraphs of my first post, and note my narrative of Jesus and the adulterous woman later.

On monotheism: Your first quote cannot be found in Mark 13:21. Anyways, the trinity nature of God is a complicated matter that many Christians do not fully undestand. I myself cannot confess to understanding it completely. Sometimes Christians have to submit to God's sovereign nature and accept His Word at face value. Proverbs 25:2 says 'It is the glory of God to conceal a matter." However, you should read John 1. It starts by saying: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." 13 verses later, "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us" obviously referring to Jesus. In other words, Jesus is the Word and is God.
Finally, note Matthew 28:19 where Jesus was giving his disciples final instructions - 'Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..".

Finally on prayer: note how Jesus prayed in John 12:27, or in John 17:1. My friend, Jesus never prescribed a particular posture for prayer. You can pray while standing, sitting, even lying down, walking, any posture. See once again, my friend, freedom! Freedom under God's grace!
Lionger,

Who told you am comfuse?am just waiting for you to say everything yourself and Alhamdulillah,the bond of contention here are the laws,if at all christians do not live under any law as you claim,Jesus wouldn't have taking his time interpreting the laws to the pharises and teachers of religious.....? and if there are no laws, you will reason with me that there wouldn't have been any teacher on religious law.or may be jesus was selective,laws for the jews and grace for the rest of his followers,just like our president,the laws of Almustapha's,Bamaiyi's are ?different from those of Ganiyu Adams,Omisore's. Sorry for the digression.

Would you also agree with me? if i put it to you that jesus was only sent to the people of israel (jews)not even jews of this time,as you correctly mentioned in your last post,jesus was talking about the laws of moses to the jews of his time.In case you don't agree with me,i will prove it to you in both the holy qur'an and your bible,This is what the bible says in matthew10:5-6. when jesus was giving instructions to his disciples and i quote,
Don't go to the gentiles or samaritans,but only to the people of israel-God's lost sheep.(matthew10:5-6) and the second example says and i quote,
I assure you,that when i,the son of man,sit upon my glorious throne in the kingdom,you who have been my followers will also sit on twelve thrones,judging the twelve tribes of israel.(matthew 19:28) and now coming to what the holy qur'an is saying and i quote,

And(remember) when Isa (jesus) son of Maryam(mary),said
'oh children of israel! i am the messenger of Allah un to you,'.(Qur'an 61:6) And read what the qur'an is saying about prophet muhammad (S.A.W.) who was sent to all mankind and i quote
Oh mankind,there has come to you the messenger with the truth from your lord.So believe in him,it is better for you.But if you disbelieve,then certainly to Allah belongs that is in the heavens and earth but Allah is All knowing,All wise.Qur'an4:170

So it is crystal clear that the christians of now adays are ?just claiming that jesus is for them at the sametime ignoring what their bible(s) are saying and yet they use to consider these bible(s) as their guide.

To the point i raised on monotheism,i wrongly quoted the verse, am really sorry for that, it is an oversight due to human nature,the verse i actually wanted to quote was in mark, chapter 12:29, let me quote it again,
Hear oh israel! the lord our God is one and only lord.(mark12:29).This verse further proves that jesus was sent only to the people of israel.

I didn't want to talk about trinity here because
am having the intention of treating it as a separate topic inshaallah, but let me highlight something for you and other christians,it is blasphemy or illogical if you don't believe it as a blasphemy, for us to entertain the idea that God almighty appeared on the earth in the form of humanbeing, even jesus christ, the one christians consider as part or equals to God,Express human wicknesses and God is above every imperfection.I can give only one example now,the rest will be given in my topic on trinity inshaAllah,The verse says and i quote,
At about three o'clock,jesus called with a loud voice,eli,eli,lema sabachthani? meaning,my God,my God,why have you foresaken me?(matthew 27:46)
 
Lionger,it is now left for you and other christians, to reason well,the above verse vividly shows that jesus is not God,if at all he is (waiyyazhubillah) can God be crying for help?

On prayers,i don't know if you can help me indicate where jesus used musical instruments while worshiping? orwhere he was dancing and dancing as a form of worship? and by the way how can God the creator of both the heavens, earths and what is between them, pray?to whom does he refer to while praying?and what is he going to pray for?These are questions, that are begging for answers from those who consider jesus to be their God almighty.Don't tell me it's beyond human comprehension as christians resort to, as an escape route.
im

Offline Barde

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Re: SHARIAH IN THE BIBLE
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2003, 09:19:11 AM »
Quote
Excelent work barde,but look at the flock that will litsen to you first.
you cant start playing arabian music in front of a chinese audience.
what i am trying to say is your work was beautiful.
God knows where u get yur information but i would like to go through them, is there any site regarding this stuff? hope so.
hmmmmmm
but barde should we really try to teach christians through thier own book?? reflecting things in the Holy Qur'an?
 I guess thats highly dangerous because as we know the Bible is highly adulterated. They have the new version, old version, new testament old testament, bla bla bla they have mixed up thier religion so much that by the time we qoute something from one book, another has a contradicting version.

So at-least we got our own book.

As for the eskimo of ng. man where are the snow deserts were u are supposed to live?

Qur'an has a whole lot of information, But things that miss out which we would want to know and are not available or too hard to understand are simplified in the Hadiths. Better grab one of these imam's books . Shafi'i,Hanafi,Hambali or my favorite... Muwatta Imam Malik.

Yes, its very piuos of you to read the Qur'an with translation but its better you go step wise. Try to understand your religion first. What is it that we ought to do and what not.

i will wait for a positive or negative reply.
Ali Hamza

Assalamualaikum,
Al Hamza,thanx for the observation,but if you look at how prophet muhammad(S.A.W.)started propagating islam in mecca,a city that was full of non muslims,you will agree with me that there is no harm in using what they believe to disprove them,remember prophet Ibrahim, when he destroyed all their idoils except one,i think their leader and referred ?the idolators to the leader when they were asking him who destroyed their Gods?he said they should ask the idoil, their response was that the idoil does not hear them,he then asked why are they worshipping something that does hear talkless of helping them? prophet Ibrahim used what they believed ?against them,i don't think it is wrong quoting from the bible as i told Amin, you can hadly convince a christian without using the bible cose he does not believe in the qur'an,any way that's my own perception of the whole thing.

I don't know wheather there is any website pertaining to it.I have a bible which i read quite often,challenges from my christian freinds made me to develop interest in comparative religion,i believe you know how they behave these days.They dont seems to know that the bible is adulterated until you highlight it to them,so if you sit down and fold your arms who will do that?and i believe you know how the prophet (S.A.W)
conducted his life with all the rigorous of Da'awah.

Thanx once more,the door is always open for comments and observations.
Bissalam,
im

 


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