while roming through some of my documents i stumbled opon this later its a response to an email by a friend, i hope it will inspire thoughts and challenge minds to expand beyond traditional religious boundaries and allow the subconcious to process and digest the contents, (although i believe this is needless to mention) but feel free to respond its scripted specifically for that purpose,
________________________________________________________________________
Jim,
It is 5:34 AM in New York. And I have yet to sleep this day. As
opposed to
my typical Stream of Consciousness musings that I direct towards your
Chicago, I am approaching the composition of this letter with a greater
patience, a greater mathematical precision. I have even ordered a cup
of tea
to assist in my endeavor. I have even invited the likes of Beethoven,
Mahler, Rachmaninov and Chopin to gift me with their intellectual
guidance.
Jim, my friend, I have just finished reading the piece you sent me, The
question that came to me on the pont de la Concorde. It was superior. I
read
it while eating a ham and egg sandwich with a side-order of fries, at a
diner in Queens where I find myself and my laptop anchored. The density
of
your thoughts rivaled the density of my meal, and the task of
simultaneously
digesting the two was quite a challenge.
Ultimately, I will have to have read your piece at least a second time
before this letter has been completed.
But before I go into description concerning the movement that your
piece
allowed within my consciousness, I would first and foremost like to
relate
the level of fulfillment I have achieved in being able to write you
this
letter.
“Purity” has been attained here. Purity emerging from my impure being.
And now, to put the ball into play…
You and I conceive of God quite differently, but what remains
consistent is
the Absolute Perfection that He embodies. My perspective may differ
from
yours in that, I believe God – Absolute Perfection - to represent a
state of
consciousness that we as humans strive to achieve, striving with each
act of
“Delineation”, as you call it. With each act of “delineating Nothing
into
Something”, as you put it (and with such sparkle!), man is exercising
those
muscles of Reason and Emotion that bring him closer to experiencing
God;
that bring him closer to experiencing a state of consciousness in which
he
is free of the consequences brought about by the inevitable disharmony
of
his “tangible existence”. For when we “delineate with words”, we are
first
delineating with thought. Delineating within our minds between that
which
consists of our immediate, tangible lives, and that which embodies our
essential, timeless nature. With each act of philosophical
introspection,
with each act of deconstructing the system that is mankind (past,
present,
and future), we work towards a state of perceiving reality in which we
– not
only know, but – feel that the circumstances of the outer world (of our
particular time) represent mere data, mere information, mere food meant
to
feed that aspect of ourselves which is timeless – our consciousness.
What I find to constitute “purity” can only occur when man separates
his
consciousness from his immediate and tangible world, detaching from the
particular experiences that comprise his “individuality” and his
“accumulated life”, to dwell exclusively in a state of perception that
is
entirely comprised of his “human essence”, namely, his ability to
perceive,
analyze, imagine and conceptualize; that which is perfectly shared with
each
human being that ever existed before him or shall exist beyond him.
Thus,
what you and I have achieved here is aloft in the realm of purity, for
that
which is at the core of this dialogue, this exchange of “conceptual
world
maps”, is not bound to the particulars of time. Rather, it is a
conversation
whose essence belongs to any moment of man’s history, present, or
future.
This fluid collision of our ideas is timeless, and consequently in
thinking
through your thoughts and responding with my own, my consciousness has
detached itself from my tangible reality, temporarily surrendering the
details of my immediate, time-specific existence, and venturing to a
pure
place in my consciousness, where my human essence - mind studying mind
–
dominates without opposition.
Concerning pure love: I believe that this too can only be attained upon
achieving separation from the confines of a tangible, time-locked
perception
of existence. This too is done in that circumstance of the mind in
which
oneness with the human essence pervades. While certainly, a man must
first
find a woman in the external world before approaching any kind of
perception
of romantic, man-woman love within his consciousness, it still remains
that
pure love can only thrive in the fertility of the timeless
consciousness.
Once again, the particular course (the tangible details) of a man-woman
relationship will unavoidably attract complication and disharmony,
bringing
about a diffusion of faith in the cultivated love. But the essence of
man-woman love, the timeless ideal of how the male persona intertwines
with
the female persona, cannot be flawed or fractured. He who can attain
the
consciousness of human essence is permitted to love with a type of
dichotomy, simultaneously carrying out his romance in the easily
corrosive
realm of the tangible, and the seamless perfection of the essential
realm.
And while the ability to sustain “pure love” does not guarantee the
infallibility of a man-woman relationship, it does contribute to its
endurance, the essential (or ideal) love aiding to enable a swifter
repairing of damage done along the tangible path of a romantic
relationship.
So then, my friend, I argue that the Fairy Tale that I share with my
German
Princess demonstrates an example of pure love. Lacking many of the
tangible
qualities of the typical man-woman relationship, this circumstance
engenders
a greater need for “ideal love”. It is, in fact, the ideology of man
loving
woman, man worshipping woman, the persona of man bleeding seamlessly
into
that of woman, which fuels the intensity of what we share. I have told
her
that I believe her to be as imaginary to me as a woman might be, yet at
the
same time, as real as a Fairy Tale can become. As a result of this
consequence, my love for her consists to a great degree of that
ideology,
that essence, of man-woman love, which is none other than pure love.
You may argue, that what we share is not only non-pure love, but not
love at
all in any form. And I offer no counter-argument, for this remains to
be
seen. Certainly, these last two paragraphs might tumble quite quickly,
for
as you know, I am no expert on love. But I still make these assertions,
for
while I may possess only a moderate amount of experience on the matter
of
love… as an artist and thinker, I carry a great deal of understanding
concerning the mind. I am quite convinced in the power of untying one’s
consciousness from the particular external world into which it is
randomly
placed; to cultivate internally that which is timeless and essential,
and
exist in a world that is beyond the tangible world.
* * *
You and I have “delineated” through the nature of man, reflecting upon
the
circumstances that comprise “the history of thought, which is the
history of
Man broken into the history of men” (another incredibly attractive
rendering
of thought, my friend; were you a pretty Chinese woman with a large
dowry, I
would take your hand in marriage). In doing so, we acquire the logic to
deconstruct the nature of who we are, not as “individuals” (not as Jim and Jie-song
), but as human beings within this continuity that is the
history,
present, and future of mankind. We arrive at the conclusion that our
tangible identities (Jim and Jie-Song) are merely by-products of the
environments and experiences we have encountered within our window of
existence across the continuity of time. We then realize, that what is
fundamental, what is timeless and uncorrupt of our temporal or spatial
coordinates, is the fact that we are, at essence, a human mind, able to
reason, able to imagine, able to conceptualize; just as all human minds
that
have preceded us, and shall postcede us.
Thus, we come to understand the nature of our tangible circumstances as
somewhat trivial. And moreover, we come to understand the internal
conflicts
we harbor as a result of our tangible circumstances (the causes of our
“impurity”) as being trivial.
And in the end, what we understand to be the forbearer of purity, is to
exclude ourselves from that which is temporary, that which exists
exclusively in the context of where and who we are today, and plunge
into
the abstraction of man, to seek out a logic and emotion that allows us
peace
with the nature of human reality; not merely our specific human
realities,
but the greater conception of human reality.
And in the end, we become artists, in the truest sense of the word,
that
divine hybrid of philosopher and creator, like man’s theological
description
of God, Himself.
[to be continued... ]
Quotewhile roming through some of my documents i stumbled opon this later its a response to an email by a friend,
[to be continued... ]
I hav 2 say verrryyyyyyyyyy, very very interestin, an absolutely brilliant letter & I've read all. Howeva, I need clarity, b/4 I go any further 2 drop my 2 cents.....I'd like 2 ask who was ur freind referrin 2 as JIM, taut u said d letter was a response 2 an email by ur freind bt to who? :-/
Oh.........(to b continued)? :-/ there's still more 2 come,(taut this was long enuff) ok will wait till wen everything's completed, den we'd drop our says
Ummita thanx for the time and intrest, the letter was written by me to a friend name Jim in response to an email he sent me regarding a long argument we once had about the concept of god and love, it was a letter i composed while struggling to attain clarity on certain matters , yes there is more to it than what i just posted but i decided to cut it short in order to allow my readers a room for digestion,
^
MaQari,
Quite a beautiful thinking processes you have there, but It is like the idea is as old as history itself. Perharps it even predated the thing called "Traditional Religion". If you have studied a little of Greek philosophy, the Plato, the Aristotle and the highly developed philosophy of the Matrix of the then you will understand what I mean.
For example, you wrote all these in a very tranquil moment and that is why you have a complete flow both in ideation and emotion. But come to think of it, had it been it is in a moment of chaos and maximum terror will you achieve getting the image of this beautiful "GOD" you have painted? Certainly the "GOD" then will look as horrible as the condition you find yourself writing.
Perharps our next description of God should be that one that will catch both the moment of tranquility and that of terror.
But anyway, I share some of your sentiments. It is a good Idea that we should all think it out for ourselves. But in things regarding the "situation" of God, I on my part have threaded a long and thorny path before I come where I am today. But it has not been easy in anyway.
Brother Maqari, We are waitin 4 d rest of d write up(http://www.jazzynigerians.com/ib_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sleeping.gif)..............or can we start talkin?!!
Waziri
I render well wishes and respective gestures towards your entity, i intended to write you since my return from germany although the chances seem to emerge less frequent than usual now, due to unusual amount of work i have to get done but anyways i hope all is well in your part of the planet.
i started this thread mainly just to correspond diversity of thought with other members of this forum, Thus i find many of the religious discourses to share similarities and many a times are even identical in both delivery and structure, this does not suprise me the least , for many of the battles are fought in thesame grounds over and over again , so its only circumstancial that two people practicing thesame religion will be unable to escape certain unity in thought , because there often is a barrier set by these religions not to be crossed under any possible condition, there often are questions not to be asked, and taboo issues that discussing them is often an act of blasphemy,(i do not cite that u share thesame caracteristics in anyway) so do not misread me, im a person who is purely unbonded by any religious sanctions, thus my perspective and thought process greatly differs from that of a devouted muslim or christian not in quality only in structure. with this said i will continue to discuss your points , and please do allow me to make qoatations for the purpose of clarity.
If you have studied a little of Greek philosophy, the Plato, the Aristotle and the highly developed philosophy of the Matrix of the then you will understand what I mean.
with all respect to early greak philosophers, the dinosours of logical thought process itself i often find many of their theories to be amalgamated with the greek mythology, this makes a perfect sence if u consider the fact that science was at a very delicate level of existance back then , this is clearly so demonstrated by various theories, im compelled to qoate Aristophanes a close frieand to both Plato and Socrates who after being asked to speak of love wrote:
" I say we ware whole beings, before our wickedness caused us to be split apart by Zeus ( one of the many gods the greaks worshipped )as the Arcadians have been split apart by the Spartans, we have reason to fear that if we do not behave ourselves in the sight of heaven we might be split apart in two again like dice which are bisected for tallies,"
with this qoatation i seek to prove that even the likes of Aristophanes ( inargurably an early authority in the evolution of thought ) ware bounded by this belief that god or gods are mythical beings that hover above all ,otherwise why mention Zeus and credit him with altering the very fundamental of human existance,a sentiment i do not share,
as of Plato (427- 347 BC ) and Aristotle (384-322 BC ) their philosophy on the existance of God both agree on existance but vary on the issue of God's nature though each thinker takes a different approach to why there is god,that of Aristotle seems the most valid because he takes a rational stance and does not dogmatically assume God's existance. Plato on the other end his phylosophy assumes that god exists as a supremely good being whose goodness is analagous to platos's concrete concept of the ultimate good. however God And goodness are not one and thesame; he does not directly state that goodness is good ,but that god is good, since he examplifies the idea at the top of Plato's hierarchy ,in short God does not equal goodness but God encompasses it better than any other being this implies not that god is perfect ,but that god exists
he then scripted in the Symposium "Broad-brested Earth, on whose foundation firm creation stands firm and love.
then proceeded to qoate Phaedrus on saying; " now love is the oldest of the gods, so also he confess opon us the greatest benefits, Mr. Waziri its crystal clear here that the bove qoate demonstrate some kind of a submission to God's supremecy,this differs greatly from my stand point that questions the very existance of God
"For example, you wrote all these in a very tranquil moment and that is why you have a complete flow both in ideation and emotion. But come to think of it, had it been it is in a moment of chaos and maximum terror will you achieve getting the image of this beautiful "GOD" you have painted? Certainly the "GOD" then will look as horrible as the condition you find yourself writing.
you are correct in saying that the above writing was composed in a "tranquil moment" yet i fail to see how u managed to extract an image of some beautifull god out of it, to believe that god is beautifull first u have to believe that he exist at all ,which was the point i was trying to make by describing it to be just a state of conciousness that mankind try to chieve, neither do i believe in absolute goodness this due to my constant questioning on the nature of "good" because the idea of "absolute perfection" defies completely the idea of "negation",something i couldnt live with,
"Perharps our next description of God should be that one that will catch both the moment of tranquility and that of terror. "
i did not in any way attempt to describe God rather question the human discription of him, which i hold the need of a spritual bong in account for.
"but It is like the idea is as old as history itself. Perharps it even predated the thing called "Traditional Religion".
its true that my bold audacity at tempering with these issues was experianced by many scholars in the past take for instance the early Islamic scholars of Kufa and Basra arround 1232 AD, a period when both the arabic litreture and the islamic study ware at the intense level of evolution, due to the exessive increase of philosophical revolutions in the regions of arabia and Andalusia ( spain ) many of the ulama-ul-tawheed (which ultimately then only dealt with the issue of gods isolation in oneness and dominance) began to welcome the then newly introduced islamic subject of "MandiQ" a word that litterary translates as (logic) this was documented as the official era the muslims started dealing academically with the issue of questioning the existance of god, so yes im not the first person that dealt with this matter , but then i dont recall saying i was, finally u said;
"But anyway, I share some of your sentiments. It is a good Idea that we should all think it out for ourselves. But in things regarding the "situation" of God, I on my part have threaded a long and thorny path before I come where I am today. But it has not been easy in anyway."
i do not know where you stand today on this issue Mr.Waziri perhaps because you and I never before quite directly discussed the matter, but im purely aware of where i am on this "thorny path" as your excellence so poetically termed it, im not anchored at any particular destination , thus i do not deny my mind the luxury of traversing beyond the common religious and moral frontiers , sometimes even the rational, and as a 23 year old this where MaQari stands.
in the 9th paraghraph i wrote "a spritual bong " i meant a " spritual bond "
hi there
I just thought the diversity of thought brings a 'convergence of chaos'. It is for that same reason that the world sees wars civil strife, violence, intolerance and racism.
If we all were to collectively think alike, even though we agree to disagree, the above mentioned problems will be curtailed.
Just wondering, MaQari. I see you quoting islamic scripture; are you muslim? If yes then are you not aware that consuming 'ham and egg sandwich' is haram
forgive me snickiness but i cannot help but notice that line.
I assume you understand.
bye.
MaQari,
My well wishes. We are fine up here as d struggle to define and redefine our relevance in the cosmos, we the organic part of this universe, continues. I say nothing lasts forever, and it is the reason why I take my journey in this life to be a mixture of grief and joy. And with this grasp of things, I always see my happiness as a part of my grief and vice versa. This is of course is the reason why my best friends today are the ones who fight me most, for love finds meaning in completion, only when it is capable of implicting pains. This is why to my friends I do not promise something that will not hurt, but that thing that will never ever violate there persons, respect, honour, faithfulness and the strong desire to keep and preserve what they earnestly want to me to preserve for them. This, I think, is how our friendship started.
Back to the subject matter. I cannot help but to admire how you were able to remember the dates of the Platos' with maximun precision. Though what I want to say here is there is always in the cosmos that force, something that cannot be explained in detail and perharps that is what ppl call and represent as "GOD". When mankind cannot explain something he attributes it to some power. The Aristotle's friend you quoted said it sometimes comes in the name of "Zeous". And you would find the communist saying " invinsible hand". And here you are trying to explain it as the peak of "conciousness". Though u were able to manage to say it this way:
Quotei did not in any way attempt to describe God rather question the human discription of him, which i hold the need of a spritual bong in account for.
Philosophers whereever they be, old or new have never started their discourses by claiming to have understood God, they always start from the opposite trying to question what they call "the ordinary" description of him, before thay conclude by discovering another form of Him. This is the reason why Firdausi, when he wrote his Book of Kings, he started by saying:
Everything that I shall say has already been told... all have walked thru' d garden of knowledgeThe fact of the matter is there is not going to be anything new that will transcend the boundary of "traditional religion".
When Stephen Hawkings, the top authority in physics, wrote his book, A Brief History Of Time, at the turn of the century, he started his introduction by saying:
"Today we still want to know why we are here and where we came from. Humanity's deepest desire for knowledge is enough justification for our continuining quest. And our goal is nothing less than a full description of the universe we live in."
In the conclusion of the book he said:
"But if we find the answer, it will be the ultimate triumph of reason... for then we will know the mind of God"
To Stephen Hawkings I comoposed and sent the following poem, under the title "KNOWLEDGE" as a rejoinder:
"Know ye not Man, seek ye Knowledge"
Myriad millennia have passed us at the stream of knowledge
Vulnerable we are yet, amid the bulk of our knowledge
Where does lie the assumed peace acclaimed in knowledge
Where is the pride in knowing when we cannot exhaust knowledge?
Why must we know?
Who then is the ignorant?
When we will always be haunted by that craving desire to know more
That desire to know again is always at the trail of our knowledge
The more we know the more we realize that there is much to know
"Know ye not Man seek ye knowledge"
Until you can fall helpless at the footings of the providence
? I. A. Waziri, 1999
This is what much later I came to find to be the crowning statement of the Qur'an on the issue, it says:
"Soon shall we show them our signs,
In their horizons, and their own souls,
Until it becomes manifest to them
That this (message of God)
Is the truth.
Qur'an (41:53)
Also
"Nay are signs self evident (O Muhammad)
In the heart of those endowed with knowledge
And none shall reject our signs but those who
Are unjust to themselves"
Qur'an.
"Know ye not Man seek ye Knowledge"
Until you can fall helpless at the footings of Providence.
So MaQari, this is my stand and though you said yours' is:
Quotei do not know where you stand today on this issue Mr.Waziri perhaps because you and I never before quite directly discussed the matter, but im purely aware of where i am on this "thorny path" as your excellence so poetically termed it, im not anchored at any particular destination , thus i do not deny my mind the luxury of traversing beyond the common religious and moral frontiers , sometimes even the rational, and as a 23 year old this where MaQari stands.
As you said you do not deny yourself the "luxury of traversing beyond the common religious and moral frontiers". I think this kind of luxury always brings ppl back to the cocoon of traditional religions as it has brought me back.
Even Fredrick Nistche, one of the greatest 'modern' Western philosophers, after traversing to the extent which he claimed to have killed the "traditional god", he found himself later "resurrecting" Him, it is then he concluded that life cannot be possible withbout some sort of a "GOD".
Waziri
im sort of tired tonight , so i will try to make this as short as my vocabulary allows, will discuss your points more profoundly tomorrow,
i might be an athiest or a Marxist but this does not change the fact that im aware of how religion dominates litterary every part of the human existance,i do not consider the lack of belief in God as something Modern or even glamorous, quite the opposite actually, humans simply sleep better at night knowing that there is some mighty being above keeping watch, statistics show that people who believe in some kind of God generally lead a healthier and less stressfull lives than those who do not, but i'd rather follow my logic into hell than allow myself to be led into heaven by someone else's logics, and ultimately i do not have a problem with god rather ways in which people are convinced to serve him,
yes Nitsche might have killed and resurrected the "traditional god" but his doing so does not fall out of the need for a "spritual bond" circle,a fact i thoroughly understand, truth is when you defy god after first believing in him and vice versa, you are often confronted with more questions than answears, you often need to start from ground zero, a task very few seem to wanna partake, and my mind might have been created by god ,but i govern this mind my self, im the lone captain, the only person who ever sat on its controll boards, thus untill it reaches this apex of thought that will render me submissive to your concept of God i will continue to believe otherwise, bear in mind that im not just making vaig statements, NO ,i process the data i daily recieve and pay meticlous attention to details , so if one day the radars point me towards the direction of the heavens im not going to be scared or ashamed to follow it, i hope you wont be discouraged or disheartened and retreat from further discussion, who knows ? u might be able to oneday provide me with an evidence so intellectually intricate and precise that may change my views, good luck
____________________________________________________
Amin
it will be hypocritical of me to answear the name Muslim depending on what your definition of the word is , if you meen was i born as One ? yes , i was and i actually studied the religion quite extensively, do i practice it ? now thats another matter, but i do enjoy my ham and egg breakfast every once in a while , i will try my best to stop though, there is nothing desirable in a swine,except that it tastes hell-o-good :-/ although im usually disgusted when i give it a thought before eating it , thats if i give it a thought at all,
but hey...................................................!!!!
Quote
.....you wont be discouraged or disheartened and retreat from further discussion, who knows ? u might be able to oneday provide me with an evidence so intellectually intricate and precise that may change my views, good luck
LOL, MaQari, I do not know what gave you the slightest hint that I am the kind of person that retreats??????? or gets easily disheartened??????????
But know that I am a person who is intersted in discussions for the benefit of the discerning public and this even if it does not favour me. If you ask me saying that my wish in this is to change MaQari's views then I will say it is not it is only my desire within my obvious shortcomings to make a point and this I will continue to try as long as you continue making a sense.
Waziri
your intellectual curiosity never fails to amaze me, nevertheless i would prefer if this discussion is steared trhough the highways of reason and personal theories rather than quoating our predecessors,and may we reach the harbours of agreement (or not ) in peace
you cited :
"The fact of the matter is there is not going to be anything new that will transcend the boundary of "traditional religion"."
i do not clearly overstand this statement , perhaps you should elaborate, for im not in the habit of building concepts on shaky grounds, and i detest it when folks do such to me,
" "Today we still want to know why we are here and where we came from. Humanity's deepest desire for knowledge is enough justification for our continuining quest. And our goal is nothing less than a full description of the universe we live in."
In the conclusion of the book he said:
"But if we find the answer, it will be the ultimate triumph of reason... for then we will know the mind of God" "
i've read a fair amount of Hawkings, and carry a deep respect for the theoretical physicist ,i never knew him to be a prominent believer in god though,but when one is confined to a wheelchair i cant begin to imagine how one fathoms the matter of submission and dependancy ,(i also am mindfull of the fact that its thoroughly possible for two minds to process seemingly clear theories in a completely deifferent fashion,) to me the last sentence in the above quoate only goes to assist my point that the "God" most thinkers allow their minds to imagine is no more than a level of conciousness, "for then we will know the mind of God" when one knows the mind of god one achieves the ultimate conciousness, however its not as simple as a task to practice as it is to theorise, and this Apex of conciousness that both I and Hawkings speak of might be not achievable at all , thus most humans seak the more stable routes of either: (1) completely defying the existance of god in cases like Marx and Engels or:(2) accepting a certain traditional/religious explanation of him, and satisfy themselves with the well composed evidance of his existance,in cases like yourself and billions of other people who practice a certain religion, however there is a third party that takes the less traveled route, composed of those who continue to question , i belong in the last lot, the ones that are constantly in search of this " ultimate triumph of reason" as i mentioned above this a task that none ever achived before , and those who claimed they did and left behind books and theories often their statements get shattered by some new tangible scientific evidence, in the last century alone more views ware flawed than in the whole human history,i do not condamn any past thinker or even dare question their authority, im aware that any new grand break through was only made possible by the past ones, u might feel compelled here to ask me: THEN WHY CONTINUE SEARCHING ? if i have the reasonable doubt that this "ultimate triumph of reason "might not be at all accessible, i will then reply : because the very possibility of its existance is enough to fuel the tanks of my intellectual curiosity, and after all only by daring to be radically different that many great moments in history ware forged, plus its my belief that in this painfull process of human evolution great thinkers can never provide the definite answears to the "whys" and "hows" they can only leave patterns and threads for future thinkers to nourish opon, and further the human knowledge, im vibrantly aware that my stance is a highly hazardous one , even argurably unhealthy, but then my frieand , this is the crooked disfigured rock that GREATNESS is often carved from . peace ONE
QuoteWaziri
? your intellectual curiosity never fails to amaze me, nevertheless i would prefer if this discussion is steared trhough the highways of reason and personal theories rather than quoating our predecessors,and may we reach the harbours of agreement (or not ) in peace
you cited :
"The fact of the matter is there is not going to be anything new that will transcend the boundary of "traditional religion"."
You see, My brother, we are at peace forever. What I said right from the onset is you and me whether we choose to quote from our predecessors or not we are not coming up with anything new on this subject. You, by now, must have noticed, from the forgoing, how we have succesfully proved that all the ideas you are harbouring can not claim any originality to yourself alone. They are as old as history itself.
Quote...and those who claimed they did and left behind books and theories often their statements get shattered by some new tangible scientific evidence, in the last century alone more views ware flawed than in the whole human history,
You see, MaQari, there has not been anything new on philosophy that got shattered in the last century or even before. If you say there were theories and advances in practical sciences and technology I agree with you. But in philosophy of social relation between man and the cosmos, nothing new ever came up. They were as documented right from time. You have those who believe in God as I do, those who do not, like Marx and Darwin and with their "very ancient" understanding of god as in the very old Sumerian religion and those who use their reason alone hoping to find god thru knowledge but ended up having faith in something klike you do.
Quoteif i have the reasonable doubt that this "ultimate triumph of reason "might not be at all accessible, i will then reply : because the very possibility of its existance is enough to fuel the tanks of my intellectual curiosity, and after all only by daring to be radically different that many great moments in history ware forged, plus its my belief that in this painfull process of human evolution great thinkers can never provide the definite answears to the "whys" and "hows" they can only leave patterns and threads for future thinkers to nourish opon, and further the human knowledge, im vibrantly aware that my stance is a highly hazardous one , even argurably unhealthy, but then my frieand , this is the crooked disfigured rock that GREATNESS is often carved from . peace ONE ?
You my brother, how you all concluded your arguments by saying you too have belief not knowledge. You are not different from us. We believe in God which you think is traditional and you believe in what you said above which of course is traditional too. I will here conclude that it is in human nature to believe. I believe in God and you believe in something else. We all have faith and act by faith not knowledge alone.
Quote
I believe in God and you believe in something else. We all have faith and act by faith not knowledge alone.
SO WAZIRI WHAT EXACTLY ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY? YOU BELIEVE IN GOD AND MAQARI BELIEVES NOT!!!, OR RATHER HE BELIEVES IN A NON- EXISTANCE GOD? WE HAVE SO MANY DIFFERENT CATEGORIES OF RELIGION AND AM SURE HE FITS IN TO ONE! SO HE MIGHT HAVE HIS BELIEVES IN GOD ASWELL, NOT ONLY YOU. :-/?WELL AM NOT JUMPING INTO CONCLUSION BEFORE YOU SAY THAT BUT THATS EXACTLY WHAT YOUR STATEMENT INTERPRETS.
KO HA HAKA BA JAMA'A? WHO AGREES THAT I NO DEY MAKE FALSE MISTATEMENTS? ;D:-/
THE TWO OF YOU, NA WUNA SABI!!!!! ::)
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SO WAZIRI WHAT EXACTLY ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY YOU BELIEVE IN GOD AND MAQARI BELIEVES NOT!!, OR RATHER HE BELIEVES IN A NON EXISTANCE GOD? ?WELL AM NOT JUMPING INTO CONCLUSION BEFORE YOU SAY THAT BUT THATS WHAT YOUR STATEMENT CLEARLY PORTRAYS:-/
THE TWO OF YOU, NA WUNA SABI!!!!! ?::)
Uhm, this gel not lady, you can say what you want to say, but Waziri did not say that. It was MaQari who said that himself. If you had followed the thread carefully you would have seen it clearly. That is even clearer than anything in this debate.....Though you said yourself that Waziri is your playmate. I hope I am not coming in between you two by this comment. But I hope Waziri is not getting this treatment cos of his refusal to comply with your playing proposals ;D ;D ;D NA YOU TWO SABI
Salam
maQari you seem to be second guessing Islam. I mean to say you are born a Muslim but now ah......................... is somewhat dismisssive. And we know one can never be dismissive of Islam.
I hope i did not misrepresent your views.
take care.
Amin
How is ATL treating you bro ? i hope all is as desired, i finish my course in Paris friday , and will be ( Insha'Allah) back in New York, on tuesday the 30th let me know if you guys are still down to have a reunion soon, and let me know the logisticS.
( i repeatedly announced that i do not favor the discussion of religion )
but as of your question: "dismissive" is not what i will particularly term my stand point , being dismissive only causes one to process data poorly,thus construct poor theories and analogies something i detest with a passion and make enermous efforts to avoid , "second guessing" does not quite describe it either, for to second guess one has to first guess , and guesses IN GENERAL are only affective in betting on horse races and the likes, most definately not when discussing methods , principals, or religious beliefs, instead all i do is compose analogies( as precise as my knowledge of the matter at hand allows) examine intellectual evidence sharpen my prespectives and dicuss, if you can find a collective description for the above you'll then have your answear.but the subject of this thread reads "amidst the confusion"
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Waziri
How are duties and obligations ? i hope you are accomplishing much in these hazy days, i had to make a lot of travel plans and arrangements for my return to the states, this resulted in the late response , hence allow me now to dive directly into the streams of the conversation,
"You, by now, must have noticed, from the forgoing, how we have succesfully proved that all the ideas you are harbouring can not claim any originality to yourself alone. They are as old as history itself."
the only thing we have "successfully proved "so far is the fact that ( 1 ) we either traverse on radically different routes in this conversation or ( 2 ) we differ greatly in the pace of thought,
"all the ideas you are harbouring can not claim any originality to yourself alone. They are as old as history itself."
im the only entity responsible for the final shape of my ideas, yet its true that many past thoughts and theories supplied a profound material aid to the composition of these ideas , but such is the nature of evolution ,no one living organism ever evolves mentally in total solitary, nor will there EVER be one ,
i regard what you said above as a " category error" something as common in our society as the flu, and almost as deadly ,come to think of it they even unite in certain symptoms and caracteristis such as the ability to easily spread, your statement shares similarities with the case of an 8 year old who is on a class trip to Washington to visit the seat of the government, after visiting the parliament, the senetors assembly the white house and the supreme court, he will be puzzled and ask his teacher " but where is the government" unless the teacher explains to the pupil that the collective activities and presence of those branches is what ( ideally )creates the final shape of a government, the pupil will be subjected to a ( category error )its a simple principal.
"You see, MaQari, there has not been anything new on philosophy that got shattered in the last century or even before. If you say there were theories and advances in practical sciences and technology I agree with you. But in philosophy of social relation between man and the cosmos, nothing new ever came up. They were as documented right from time. You have those who believe in God as I do, those who do not, like Marx and Darwin and with their "very ancient" understanding of god as in the very old Sumerian religion and those who use their reason alone hoping to find god thru knowledge but ended up having faith in something klike you do. "
In subjects as diversed as philosophy, religion, psycology, or human behaviorral studies, accurancy is often un-provable,because the possibily of computing every view is close to that of taking an inventory of every sea-life, yet there are many fundamentals of beliefs that got shattered by scientific evidance , such as the idea that man has been a habitant of the earth from the get go,or the possibility of mosses physically splitting the red sea, however what i spoke of is the practical science and tech.and from my stand point psycho-biology provides the most accurate descriptions of behaviorral caracteristics,
"They were as documented right from time."
do meen "documented" in the respective commentary of human litriture ? and "right from time" is this time in the traditional Hawkings sence of time ? or just the clich? version of time as so commongly used daily ? just curious
"You my brother, how you all concluded your arguments by saying you too have belief not knowledge"
i will love for you to please pint point the location where i stated that i only have belief "NOT" knowledge,as a fair enough thinker this will stand directly in violation of my logic, what you failed to comprehend is : the order in which i arranged the two ( perhaps from poor communication skills on my part ) to have belief without knowledge or vise versa will be like to strive without morale,the two go together infinitum style, in my case often knowledge before beliefs,but the two trancend amalgamated in all forms and fashions
"You are not different from us. We believe in God which you think is traditional and you believe in what you said above which of course is traditional too. I will here conclude that it is in human nature to believe. I believe in God and you believe in something else. We all have faith and act by faith not knowledge alone. "
the tradition of logical thinking is an attire that i will proudly agree to wear, so yes you are right
yet i find it too simple of a task for one to just have faith in something without thoroughly inspecting it especially when one is conditioned to do so from the craddle, to have faith in God without questioning the provided description of his nature or ways to worship him is similar to one's saying " i know the number 2" but when asked to describe it he says its: "1 plus 1" , or "1 less than 3", this is accurate enough , but what i attempt to do is : study the nature of "PLUS" and "LESS" not just merely accept the results they help reach.
In conclusion i would like to state that from our few brief encounters in these forums u might've noticed that making vaig statements in arguments without providing counter-proposals is not something i cherish, i'd much prefer you to either introduce your ideas and logically explain them to the best of your abilities, or dissect mine so that we can reach a result through trial and error, not just continiously try to prove how old my ideas are while making references to books i've read before puberty, i reamain respectfull of your enthusiasm, ONE
I am responding to this thread for two reasons only. One, you asked me to pin point where you confessed having faith not knowledge and here I quote:
Quoteplus its my belief that in this painfull process of human evolution great thinkers can never provide the definite answears to the "whys" and "hows" they can only leave patterns and threads for future thinkers to nourish opon, and further the human knowledge, im vibrantly aware that my stance is a highly hazardous one , even argurably unhealthy, but then my frieand , this is the crooked disfigured rock that GREATNESS is often carved from
Emphasis added
Your usage of the word belief above is what informed my conclusions. For belief is nothing more than a dogma like we ppl of faith in traditional "GOD" have.
Secondly, you accused me of being vaig in my presentations which is not substantiated in anyway. I was wondering how could one respond to such a charge?
You also found fun in describing me as eight year old. I don't know exactly what point that scores or what it has succeeded in proving so far? Why do I have to tread the path of lowliness from some one whose "intellectual curiosity" amazes you to fall into the description of an 8 yr old? I believe you can delve into the issue without belittling me.
I think this discourse has come too far. All I have tried doing ,within my shortcomings, is to prove to you and the discerning reader that your opinions are nothing new and they were haboured by ppl of the ancient times and as such the quality in them do not supersede those of ppl of faith in traditional "God". And their kind always lead ppl to to the traditional "God", as such it is better for one to
engage in something more fruitful than to waste his time trying to "question how others describe God", espicially when one CANNOT come up with more satisfactory explanations.
My above assertion will only be confirmed by the discerning reader who reads both what you say and what I say.
I think to resort to condenming what I do as vaig is not your solution. My position is clearer in this discourse.
I will continue to respond only when you make more sense.
Concerning Obligations and Duties, I for long suggested to you how you should appraoch the issue. Introducing it subtly and craftly will not pay off in any way.
Waziri
Once again you have allowed your ego to gain total access and controll of your concious, which causes you to succumb to anger, your agressive approach clearly manifested it.
this lessens your chances of grasping your opponent's concepts let alone digest them , something i do not tolarate in a conversation, try approaching my sentences with reason rather than just emotional chaos, you will then discover that nothing of what i said above attacks your person,its unfortunate that my anology on ( category error ) stirs the feeling of discomfort within you, yet i still stand by it confidently,i find it purely pathetic that you ellude yourself by believing that my intentions ware to degrade and humiliate you,i simply am much too occupied for cyber mind games, you should channel all that aggressive energy towards suppressing my views rather than letting it encapsulate your mind,"IN AN INTELLECTUAL COMBAT ONLY THE WOUNDED CAN FIGHT".
its too easy to deem one's ideas old, didnt the Arabs call the Qur'an " ASADIYR-UL-AWWALIYN" ( olden folklore) thus your saying of this alone is as old as what you are trying to counter.
i do not want to go any further in this discussion, for one can not grow any plant with corrupted roots . Peace
read......... read.............. read............. read........... read
and ..................think
Comrades !
whats the verdict looks like we the forums are evolving faster than i thought possible , keep it up guys, Amin ( if you are still present ) im back in New York now if you are still intrested in putting together a gathering i'll be down , Lionger i see u are still active, big props, Waziri, still struggling with religious issues huh ? well whatever rocks your craddle bro, well i think thats about it , take it easy guys ONE
just an afterthought, whoever does the coding of kanoonline web site could use an advice or two in programming , it really is very elementary ( no pun intended ) Waziri arent you a CS major or something of that nature ? why dont you lend them a helping hand ? they seem to terribly need it , peace ONE
Assalamu alaikum;
Maqari,
As regards to the coding of kanoonline web site, can you please give me advice as to what you need changed, modified, corrected or deleted. Then I will go ahead and solicite advice on the programing issue. Also, being an artist that you are, I will like you to help us with some AfroCentric avatars for the site. Please make them .GIF, .JPG or .PNG, thanks in advance. BTW, I will also be in the US (North East) somtime next week lets see about the get together with Amin and others.
Admin i sincerly render my apologies for not getting back to you earliar, i've been dealing with health problems since my return to the US,i dont know if you are still in the states or not, but if you are let me know where and for how long you are going to be present, i would try my best to link up at the very least via phone, i have a big loft in williamsburg brooklyn and you are welcome to stop by for a few days if you want, i dont know about the rest of the Nigerian cats in the forum, Amin didnt get back to me as of yet, Amin if you are reading this and are still intrested in the gathering hit me up on my PM box, i'll be going to Miami Florida, this month for a graffiti contest, i would be driving so if anybody wants to extend an invitation i really woldnt mind stopping by for a few hours, about the coding of Kanoonline , i really dont have the time to get involved with any of it now Admin , but i would be honored to help with the graphic design and imagery, drop me a PM and we can further discuss it , you can see my work at
www.mac-graffiti.net its the website of my international crew of graphic renegades , i also have some works at : www.daim.org/murals1.html enjoy , PEACE
Hello Maqari,
Right now I am in Jacksonville Florida and I too traveled by road not from Kano, Nigeria but form Newark, Delaware - just too route 95 South all the way. InShaAllah I plan to be somewhere between Central to North Jersey early next week and may come up the turnpike to NYC... maybe then will be a good time to see if we could get together... OK all KanoOnliners along the eastern seaboard of US let see if we could get together before out annual get together in Kano...
Also I checked the two websites showing some of work. Let me just simply say that I really think that your work is very impressive and look forward to you giving us (Kanoonline) a hand with some graphics...
Oh interesting! I did not come this way for long. Yes, I am a measure in CS but if you really do not mean pun you can advice the admin without making refrence to me, not to even ask me as to how's religion.
Maqari your methodology is cagey, if not, how would you do something and still accuse your opponent of being that thing? How in God's name do you want to me to respond to a charge of me being an eight year old? You will agree with me that this is not an issue you are raising but an exibition of an intention to ridicule.
No, your kind of personality attack is nothing new to me. I have been an activist all my life. Nothing you would say can have the potential of geting me provoked.
When I reprimand and rebuke you it is because the kind of your deviation is unequalled in the history of our family. In fact the only part of this discourse which I find difficult to show your father and mother is the part which you confessed eating pork and no longer practicing Islam, I know they will not sleep and may continue to cry to eternity.
Usman Maqari, I wonder how you can gather the courage to tell people you want to engage in a sincere intellectual discourse. Usman how could you be bold enough to tell me to read, read, read and read again? Usman when did you read enough to have a new thought that you can compare to the reveletions sent down to Muhammad?
Perharps you do not perceive the person you are speaking to all along. Usman you are tall and fair in complexion. You were born 1978 and spent all your life within the confines of Zaria city before you left to Egypt in 1996 to read Arabic. You are the third son of Mallam Ahmad Maqari. Your father was brought to my family since when he was about ten to read. He grew up and saw our house as his school. Your briothers and sisters are hear always reminiscing and thinking for the day they will set you in their eyes again.
Usman I have never seen a person who responds more to his emotions than his reason as you do. How could you leave all of us here and carve for yourself a new identity and belief separate from the pride of our great ancestors? Remember you are not the first among us to have been to USA enough to discard all relations. Usman my heart bleeds and as an uncle to you I pray one day you would find meaning in looking towards our direction. If for nothing, that your mother may smile again and be glad that her beloved son is back again. Ibraheem, Saeed and other well wishers send their greetings and we all say we miss you. I pray you would have a rethink.
Affectionately yours
LOL @ Waziri did you mean " Major" by measure,i'll show your post to Usman he will love it !,
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Admin im sending you a PM with my number and Adress in it, are you on the east coast yet ? , if so give me a call i will arrange a meeting , i can bring along a CD with cdompies of my work for you to che3ck and pick images you would like me to donate to the site aight yo peace ONE .
Yup, Usman I mean measure and I believe if you would start reflecting you will begin to believe am right. Remember words are tools and I am a poet (at the risk of sounding immodest).
But please could you tell me who made the following comments under our discourse on The Jews the other day?
Quote from: "Maqari"i know many of us are aware of the infamous hausa termKUNAR BAKIN WAKEand the folklore behind it,i know in my heart that if some forces are to invade Zaria and start raping and murdering my sisters and mother i will voluntarily strap myself with explosives enter their territory and decombust, in understanding of a primitive human nature u will realise that any living organism will do whatever i stress
Is it Usman Maqari or the anonymous you? Remember Maqari is a very unique name in Zaria that is preserved only for that family. You must tell the truth and only that, for you know as well that prophets never tell lies unless if what you write above as your new religion contains lies and liers in it. Usman I have your dossier right before me including how you got into the states. Your story is a very good example that will feed the intellect of k-onliners and nourish their souls. But next time when you are making comments remember not to compare yourself with the prophet of Islam.
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Is it Usman Maqari or the anonymous you? Remember Maqari is a very unique name in Zaria that is preserved only for that family. You must tell the truth and only that, for you know as well that prophets never tell lies unless if what you write above as your new religion contains lies and liers in it. Usman I have your dossier right before me including how you got into the states. Your story is a very good example that will feed the intellect of k-onliners and nourish their souls. But next time when you are making comments remember not to compare yourself with the prophet of Islam.
Tell us the strory Waz. The gossip section in the chit chat section can accomodate it i s'ppose :wink:
first off i detest religions , let alone create one as of the ananymous story why dont you go ahead and tell it Waziri , speak!!!!! unleash !!!!!TELL IT ALL from the heights to the depths of it , explore its tracts untill its every part of it is travelled and fact unravelled, leave no stone unturned , i know plenty of eager ears await to be captivated by this "story" of a mysterious caracter, as for myself i sincerly eagerly anticipate the climatic orchestra, and you Waziri have the stage ! shall we begin ....................................................
Hello ppl,
I am continually fascinated at the difficulty intelligent ppl hav in distinguishin what r views & opinions from what is merely offensive.
Right!...........this has 2 stop now! Its sickening. Seems like none of you is ready to put an end to it, so I will!!! You see dis topic started as a very interesting post I hav been followin dis thread 4 quite a while and I was looking forward & am sure alot of ppl where lookin forward to pa-take in d discussions & some have aready done so. But sooner had it begun, things came spiralling & I loosed interest. Am not ova analysin issues but dis thread is a clear proof of d ill feelings u may hav developed 4 each oda. I know it does not concern meh but it is d obligation of every MUSLIM 2 try & broker a peaceful settlement so I will speak up. Am not perfect as I equally hav browls wit mah sweeet cousins wen I wan2 watch Ricki & they want football but hey "d concept of two ppl livin 2geda 4 many yrs without havin a cross word suggests lack of spirit only 2 b admired in sheep" & again itz minor issues which we 4get in seconds. Maqari & Waziri I believe that both of u r two matured ppl wit self-respect 4 ur selves & others. On d oda hand, ur personal issues does not relate 2 dis topic or d forum as a whole. If you two wan2 settle ur scores kindly take it somewhere else. I just read a post a while ago & dis forum was receiving credits 4 being a peaceful forum now wat kinda impression will dat pessin perceive wen he cums across dis thread? Am not sayin u two r tryin 2 broker world war 3, howeva if u dnt stop these unreasonable behaviour there is likely chances it will (Allah dei yer sawake) In case u havnt noticed ur bad feelings towards each oda, juss know dat it is so obvious!
Waz, u know dat u r one respectful member wit great interlect & so is Maqari. Thoguh, If anyone has read this post dey will know dat it stareted off well, then it was more of competing agaisnt each others intelligence, then it when to quotings trying to prove someone is lying & nowwww its gone to spilling beans outta d bag. I wud like to inform both of you that we do not wan2 hear anthing pertaining either of u. All issues in this forum shud b forum related discussions & not family affairs. Both of you are two matured intelligent men wit gud sense of humour & reasonins & u 2 cud offer alot 2 dis forum, but carry on like this isnt gonna help. So I respectfully ask u 2 drop this & carry on d whole 9 yards.....odawise we dnt c d use of d topic if it wasnt intended 2 serve its main purpose. We've heard enuff & want no more. Brothas spread peace & harmony. (& errrr dnt b embarrassed or big headed 2 go bck on a gud track juss bcus a female sista has jumped in btw cus alotta men hate that!!!) We all hav gud & bad times wit ppl but we shud maintain a best side 2 it. So Maqari & Waz if u carry on lyk this, I hav betta alternative, I will send u 6 feet unda.
Phew* dahs alot, (she laffs) So how is my mediation skills Gogannaka?(she laffs) Gogannaka, mhmmmmmmm ai keine za'a kirer CNN wetin consine u!!!!!!!(she laffs)
I am with Ummita on this one. Please Waziri and Maqari this has become too personal. Please do not post this kind of personal things here. If you must, then find another method to communicate to each other personally. This is because I really do not think that there will be any value gain by other Online Forum members or visitors by this kind of discourse.
I am with Ummita on this one. Please Waziri and Maqari this has become too personal. Please do not post this kind of personal things here. If you must, then find another method to communicate to each other personally. This is because I really do not think that there will be any value gain by other Online Forum members or visitors by this kind of discourse.
Admin i apologize for being cut off on the phone, we shall continue the conversation when you get up north, i will email my numbers right after this message, i still think we should make the effort to hook up, i can come up to jearsey to bring the files we talked about,
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Ummita , and anybody else who shares her sentiment im sincerly the most apologetic to you all , i did not intend in anyway to cause any distress in these forums, rather just discuss a topic that torments and confuses my psyche, this i clearly manifested by naming the thread " AMIDST THE CONFUSION" with all respect to Waziri i do not know or care about his existance enough to waste a minute of my life in reserch of his background,or even think about the guy beyond kano online and my respective keyboard, yet the guy goes through the trouble of gathering some data about some mysterious caracter pretends to know me my parents and even has a "dossier" on me , thus i felt the need to challenge him and clearly ask him to reveal these brutal secrets, perhaps i provoked this child like obsession with me, by making a simple analogy in a case of " Category Error" where i compared his confusion with that of an 8 year old about the nature of a "government",many a times people who are deemed intelligent by some sort of a public , find it hard to take a thrashing in an intellectual combat, and often succumb to anger and and gibbrish chatter, i do not want to dump all responsibilities on him though, for it clearly takes two to tango , so once again for my part i sincerly apologize !, but still ................still....and still i stand by my opinions.
Well that's it, not been here for long!
Maqari,
Atleast by now I have confirmed what you could not have told me on one to one. You cannot dispute being my Nephew. And for Ummita and Admin, I would have preferred you stayed out of this. It is a discovery I am making. I know you konw me too well to know the extent I can go in this. I have held many peaceful dialogues with more reasonable people around here long. More matured ppl not tell one to go and read read and not talk f comparing one to a child or ask him advice others to improve a site or even ask him bout what rocks up his cradle. Complacence does not make a reasonable person and nor does it breeds a highly cultured character. This definately should make me remind Maqari bout what he reads and what he does. Perharps he wants to know how much I know bout his cradle. For the views he expressed above I think we have done well in letting him know that they are not new in anyway and cannot claim any authenticity.
For Maqari again you can send me a PM. Only tried to make you see that I care as an uncle and would want to you back and If you are not Usman then you know Usman right? So pls link him up to me. Here home we celebrate his love everyday and wish to get him home. But sincerely speaking I owe nobody no apology I am only after my nephew and ppl go out of their way to do these kind of things. Admin and Ummita I reallly detest the idea of you intervening.
I guess personal posts are not disallowed..it is only abusive responses that are not allowed.
If I dont like the topic I will simply look for another topics. As they are ever available here.
Leave Uncle Waziri and his nephew Maqari alone..perhaps he may win his heart back :D
With due respect to Mr. Maqari and Waziri, it is my concern to intervene and save a situation here. All of us have seen the tete e tete that has transpired in between. some of us even had the courage to pokenose either jokingly or by just sharing sentiment with any of these two intellectual advocates. but when situations come this far, it is good to allow the matter die down. therefore it is my profound gratitude to pls beg Maqari to unconditionally revert his unilateral decision of bidding farewell to the K- onliners. What I wud like to say is that once we are together we are bound to wrong one another. Even lord Roskill said "So long as human nature is what it is there will always be disputes btw individuals and those disputes whatever their nature must be resolved."
Kai Nuruddeen, I really did not want to make reference to these things as you know our value system as Fulani, Pulaaku and Kawaici, make you just let go somethings in order to give your partner a room to save his face. I am sure Usman would have even disputed coming from Zaria if not for the mistake he once made and said it. But really am not suprised, it has been his culture to deny his background, childhood friends and even relatives. If really Usman is not interested in the ppl behind his keboard why did he have to talk about me majoring in Computer Science? It is only my prayer that he will leave to face the reality in the wordings, home sweet home.
And at the level of the debate. You can see how in that "Open letter to Mr. Waziri", he began by saying " In your letter to me". But the truth of the matter was I did not write him any letter, I only replied his letter. I really dunno why he was very much eager to create an impression to the public that I have written him a letter.
This is what in intellectual judo we call "Intellectual dishonesty". If really he wanted to tell about our personal correspondence he would have achieved that by telling the truth. I smelled that dubiousness and quickly put a stop to that.
Then he came up with this "AMIDST CONFUSIONS" . I intervened to keep the spirit and tradition of k-online. But at a point he asked me to show him where he said he too has faith not reason. I quoted him verbatim and went ahead to draw his attention to some unsubstantiated claims he put forward. Like the issue of me being vaig in presentation and me being like an 8yr old child. I think naturally in a debate if you put forward a charge you are suppose to give examples but he did not. But only gave out a BURST that only the wounded can fight :roll: And that I must go and read and think. That I was using emotions :roll:
My next action was to abandon the subject matter completely before this boy will come again ridiculing me "Waziri still struggling with religious issues? huh". You are a major in CS why not advice them to improve the coding of this site? .....What rocks up your cradle....
As a result I had to come back again
And now you can see him saying it is because some public deem me intelligent that is why I will not succumb to his defeat. I really had to ask myself defeat? in what way? I am a Muslim who does all what he does in the hope of achieving a higher goal not because I am craving for praises. Or why won't my Nephew allow others to tell him that he has defeated me first? Why must he use the intellectual dubiousness again to bamboozle his ways?
Well, one thing that is categorical in my public life is, I have encountered many ppl of different mindset and worldview. There is no condemnation today that will be directed towards me that can outweigh the ones I came across in the past. And ofcourse no praise you would praise me today that will surpass the kind of praise I received in the past.
Most accomplishing is the kind of praise, shower of blessings, I received from my father whose second to the last expression before he passed away in 1987, agonising in pains, was " Khalil ne kusa dani" meaning "is that Khalil by my side" I answered in the affirmative, and he said " Allah Ya shi maka albarka duniya da Lahira" meaning, "may God bless you in this world and the world beyond".
This is the kind of blessing I want Usman to get by coming back home. For me what remains is this kind from my ageing mother. She is over seventy yrs now, very frail, and the day she would say it before passing away will be the day I will hit the climax of my achievements. I will give thanks to God and confront the demons of the world with bolder EYES, for this world contains nobody other than my PARENTS, MY POETRY, MY POTENTIAL PARTNER, MYFRIENDS, my ultimate MY GOD and those who want stay at the other end agoninsing over what Waziri does and to them we pronouce the last two verses of Suratul Falaq.
Salam!!!
Fellow onliners, this is Hausanicious speaking as usual. Am sorry pls, I've been away for a while just came around only to see this thread climaxing.
Am sorry pls to intervene, but as you know am from Zaria, and I know Waziri and I know Usman Maqari, infact myself and Usman Maqari are from the same family. Perhaps a closer relationship than that btw Waziri and Maqari. Since Waziri is not living in the same area with us, infact he did not live most of his life in Zaria.
What I want to really confirm to Usman is we as a family are really missing him, and would want him back home. And Waziri, is truely an uncle to Usman Maqari, though since he did not live most of his life here we only came to discover the density of our blood relationship with him much later. Sincerely speaking I would want to broker a peace btw my two blood and beloved brothers. Let them just start emailing one another for a discovery has been hatched at Kanoonline.
Thanks to the Admin for the credit to this reunion and thanks to the cyber world, cyber optics technology, coaxial cables and twisted wires cables, Hardwares & Softwares, the indomitable Bill Gates and the Almighty Allah for making this reunion possible. And I will want all kanoonliners to come up and cast their votes for Maqari and Waziri for my family, for Hausanicious alone(for brokering the peace, lol), for Nigeria and For Islam.
Peace Yah!!! Am in here..... oh!! am sorry, I mean am outah here like this ....
Nura Dari a.k.a. Hausanicious
I do not have much time so i will just adress a few key issues and immidiate thought, besides the rest is mainly just chatter , not worthy of much attention,
Waziri I Watch you struggle to maintain balance , between pride and intellectualism, a combination that if not well managed will render one to create premature data , or what the public simply term as a "rumor", you and every other entity in these respective forums know me to harbour an enermous belief in psycobiology, i regard humans as simply " data" a collection of ideas arranged carefully in the subconcious, along with other data such as music color and even as big as a whole culture,to help one maintain balance nescessary for survival, the collective form of this proscess is called evolution, this belief provisdes me the ability to isolate the sence of guilt or even emotions at times, so in my saying that "i do not care about you beyond Kanoonline " is merely just but a refusal of an unnecessary data, in thesame fasion a Mac will refuse a software that is precisely coded for a PC , just machinery.....................................
i'd much rather that we are continuing our original debate, because the present state of this conversation has as much substance as that of a bunch of teenage girls gigling and gossiping over boys " LOL ! thus it has no significance in my survival, i will make this my last post on kanoonline in general , its been fun while it lasted ! im sure i wont be missed,! :) .
I do not fully grasp or properly measured the intensity of the next few paragraphs im going to compose ,yet i will proceed perhaps for the shear pleasure of alarming ya'll, or maybe just to compensate the exhausted audiance that's been anticipating at climax the orgasmic density of your gossip, or perhaps just as a gesture of respect to a frieand a comrade whose life i ve became to respect and cherish, USMAN AHMAD MAQARI.
to divert the audience from the original cause ( in which your arguments became centered arround the ancient tradition of "i heard it before " ) you brought up his life on display, in order to ellude !!, so captivated within your struggle to save face and establish that you are noble.
Ive known and shared thesame loft here In NY with usman for the last 4 years (save the 3 months i spent this year in europe)and i do not think he makes his background a secret,just like i do not make the fact that my parents are from Zaria a secret, this is assisted by the fact he created the account under his last name,
december last year i needed attend the seminar in europe, and i took his iBook with me, with it the link to this web site, i promised to continue, checking it for potential web space to exhibit our art work meenwhile i engaged in a few conversation, when i came across you Nura Dari, we spoke in paris i asked you to please find out about Usman 's family , which you did gave me the information and i promised to deliver, there is no secrets in that.
Waziri about this issue of me asking you to lend a helping hand with the coding of the site, that seems to deprive you off your sleep at night, let it go bro ! i sincerly meant to get you involved in something more tangible and productive to this perticular online community , beyond your respective views , i dont know if you are already doing that or not, you could have saved a lot of log time and web space by just telling me ,but then i should have asked RIGHT ? but if i wasnt sincere why then would i offer to help with the visuals and graphic design, in fact i even called Admin a few days later to arrange ways to get him the work.
anyways this has dragged much longer than i planned, and once again gentlemen its been a pleasure ! LOL , i will tell usman to make an effort and check the drama his notorioty caused in here , i dont think he will be pleased though ! PEACE ONE.
SHAME!!! ANOTHER GOOD MEMBER HAS BEEN DRIVEN AWAY. I DONT BLAME DI GUY, EVEN IF AM THE ONE BEING TORMENTED LIKE THIS AND WONT ALLOWED TO BE! FOR SURE AM TAKING MAH BACK PACK AND HEADING OFF TO THE MOUNTAINS TO SAVE ME THE HEADACHE. TO, YA TAFI, HANKALINKU YA KWANTA? NOW THE DUDE YOU GUYS BEEN AFTER AINT EVEN THE ONE, TALKLESS OF ALL THE GRAMMER AND TONA ASIRI BEEN CONDUCTED ON ONE SINGLE SOUL. ALLAH DAI YA SAWAKE YA KUMA KIYAYE. WAI!!! IRINKU IDAN AN GANKU A GUDU KAWAI:roll:
Quote from: "Hafsy_Lady"SHAME!!! ANOTHER GOOD MEMBER HAS BEEN DRIVEN AWAY. I DONT BLAME DI GUY, EVEN IF AM THE ONE BEING TORMENTED LIKE THIS AND WONT ALLOWED TO BE! FOR SURE AM TAKING MAH BACK PACK AND HEADING OFF TO THE MOUNTAINS TO SAVE ME THE HEADACHE. TO, YA TAFI, HANKALINKU YA KWANTA? NOW THE DUDE YOU GUYS BEEN AFTER AINT EVEN THE ONE, TALKLESS OF ALL THE GRAMMER AND TONA ASIRI BEEN CONDUCTED ON ONE SINGLE SOUL. ALLAH DAI YA SAWAKE YA KUMA KIYAYE. WAI!!! IRINKU IDAN AN GANKU A GUDU KAWAI:roll:
Well, Hafsy Lady, it would be nice if u stay out of this.
((Oya come beat me Hausanicious, nace kazo kayimin bulala) :roll: IF YOU PEOPLE WANT US TO STAY OUT OF THIS, MAKE WUNA CARRY WUNA THING GO SOMEWHERE ELSE. NO RICKI LAKE SHOWS HERE :? BUT AS LONG AS YOU ALL KEEP YAPPING ABOUT THIS THINGGG, PEOPLE WILL STAY INSIDE IT. IF YOU WANT MEMBERS TO STAY OUTTA THIS , CARRY THIS TO SOMEWHERE ELSE. BAMU NEMAN FITINA BELLE TASHIN HANKALI . I TALK THIS IN GOOD FAITH. KO NIMA ZA'A RUBUTO CHAPTER NE AKAINA?
OK I WILL STAY OUT OF IT, BUT THEN KEEP THIS OUT OF HERE SHIKENAN KOWA MA YA HUTA.
LOL...another one between Hafsy and Hausanicious...LOL
Go on Hausanicious...you may discover she is your cousin....who knows?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Quote from: "Hafsy_Lady"((Oya come beat me Hausanicious, nace kazo kayimin bulala)
She laffs.........CLASSICAL!!!!!! NOW THIS IS WAT I CALL DRAMA!!! (Where did I go, I missed dis much).
(She laffs) Eskimo, u r right u know!.........they might b d same blood link u neva know.........
Ehem *clears throat* on behalf of some of us, we offer Maqari apology. He is always welcom bck, wen eva he desires. Surely he was a gud member.
Let me join Eskimo, watch drama!
Ok Usman, Thanks once again for your clarification. But yet how do I find it easy to believe you are not my Nephew when your pics at Mac-graffiti website, you gave above, say it all? The anonymous you, how can I find it easy to believe that you are only using the account of my Nephew to represent yourself when there is no difference between the first post made on this board under this account and the "last" one, at the level of diction, choice of words and expressions? Please for God's sake what makes the difference between how you wrote to me before your purported trip to Europe and as in the above post? Unless if you and Usman are identical twins. Perhaps you could see that by these alone I have enough evidence surpassing mere rumor to reach my conclusions.
I have gone through the conversations you held with Hausanicious the other time but unfortunately our conclusions was you were only trying to play with our intelligence. And before I forget, I think I noticed up there how you indicated that both of you (you and Usman) work on graphics. But unfortunately on the site I saw only one black person (Usman) amidst other whites. Or do you resemble Usman that much?
And about the issue of you asking me to lend a helping hand here, I believe it is not necessary in anyway since you do not know the role I have played or am still playing in the "evolution" of this site. After all for a person of a very good sense of etiquette, that suggestion should have come thru a PM, for you will definitely not expect me to come up there and tell you what I am doing. With this in mind I concluded you are only attempting a ridicule.
For the rest of what you say about me trying to balance between intellectualism and pride I will not comment. And if you really want to continue the debate you can go ahead. I will stay expectant. But I would want to remind you that I believe we have all grown up enough to understand that in our kind of a debate there is no quest for a looser or a winner, we are here to educate ourselves. In fact in my nearly 2 years stay at k-online only you (weird as that may) I come across who speaks in terms of loosing or winning in a debate.
You should also try to differentiate between an attack on personality and making points. If you make a charge of vague presentation or one being a small child, you go ahead and substantiate it with an example. If you do not do that it becomes a personal attack. Students of debate call it "fallacy". And in that situation nothing your opponent can say.
And finally I noticed you trying to bid us good bye. It really is saddening. Men are not cowards. If itt were daggers crossing over heads the would stay and fight. If at a point they find reason to runaway then we say they are the losers in the battle field. If it is in verbal battle then we say they are defeated. So my dear Nephew do not allow me to defeat you, though knowing fully that my wordings are as painful as blades when they are harsh and equally they are as sweet as honey when they are soft. You have felt the rough side of them (though, I thought you could withstand the intensity of there hurt) but I am sure if you continue to be with us you will have the soft side of them.
Usman perhaps this is telepathic, but you know fully that nobody will miss you the way I will if you were to go away, cos' in your posts here, are sporadically, many praises you poured on me and here in nobody earned your respect enough for you to chant the Arabic words of praise:" Iza sara rabbul baiti....".
Yes Usman, I know that Abul' ala al Ma'ari was right when he said: "A grief at the hour of death is more than a hundredfold of joy at the our of birth". But I yet I feel you should try to be bracing and understand Waziri when he speaks bout his nature like this:
"A fearing whom I trust I gain my end,
But trusting without fear, I lose my friend
Much better is the Doubt that gives me peace
Than all the Faiths which in hell-fire may end
Among us some are great and some are small
Albeit in wickedness we are masters all
Oh! If my fellow men are like myself
The human race shall always rise and fall
The air of sin I breathe without restraints
With selfishness my few good deeds I taint;
I come as I was moulded and I go,
But near the vacant shrine of Truth I faint.
A church, a temple or a Ka'aba stone;
Qur'an or Bible or a martyr's bone__
All these my heart can tolerate
Since my religion is now LOVE alone."
For the rest of the forumnites, while I am remorseful of your plight, know that I have no cause to apologise to any body. In me is always what will hurt you and later give you pleasure.
Waziri
A A Hafsy, Ni nawa bulalar kin san special ce. Kinga ma abin da Ummita ta rubuta:
Quote from: "ummita"
Eskimo, u r right u know!.........they might b d same blood link u neva know.........
Ko kin manta abin da muka tattauna rannan ne?
Assalamu alaikum,
My dear friends Maqari and Waziri can we have a cease-fire, please. This argument has been going on for long....... haba Yan Uwa meye duniyar baki-daya? Ina amfanin wannan badaqala da asaqalar zance da bazai amfanemu ko addininmu ba.
DON ALLAH (SWT) KUYI HAKURI- Allah (SWT) Yanason mai hakuri da juriya.
Let me also remind both of you of you all lready know about argurment:
Definition: An argument is an exchange of views, it is a sort of verbal dispute that involves trading of reasons or apportioning blames. Islam discourages argument.
Islam discourages any act that brings about disunity among Muslims, or that which could lead to a disgrace or demeaning of a believer. Whenever two people argue the following things are likely to happen: -
Repercussions:
(a) they get angry as the argument heats up. And the Holy Prophet (SAW) warns us not to allow ourselves to get into anger,
(b) they loose their temper and control of emotions,
(c) each can go to any length to defeat the other even if it warrants lying or exaggerating. Lying is prohibited,
(d) loose respect in the eyes of the on-lookers. A wise man said, ' do not argue with a fool for the people will not know the difference.' It is necessary for a believer to respect himself and others,
(e) indulges in idle talk and the Angels records every word that is said,
(f) they expose each others secrets, ignorance and weaknesses,
(g) in the end prove one another ignorant or lacking knowledge,
(h) argument leads to pride and boasting,
(i) argument becomes their habit sub-consciously,
(j) most arguments are futile. Such as guessing, predictions, etc.
Permissible arguments are those aimed at educating people about Islam or emancipating their misunderstanding of some Islamic rules. A Muslim could engage an unbeliever in a discussion in order to explain the principles of Islam with facts and sound quotations.
Idle or futile arguments are however forbidden in Islam. It is a waste of time. Time is very precious to a believer and he must therefore judiciously utilise it. Abdullah bin Amir (RA) narrated the Holy Prophet (SAW) saying, "Whoever abstains from making noise (idle talk) is safe." Imam Dailami (RA) and Baihaqi (RA) also reported the following saying of the Holy Prophet (SAW), "Silence is a blessing but very few practice it." Similarly, Abdullah bin Umar (RA) also narrated that, "I went to the Holy Prophet (SAW) in the morning and he heard the voice of two persons who were having an argument with each other about a verse. Allah's Apostle (SAW) came to us (signs) of anger could be seen on his face. He said: verily, the (people) before you were ruined because of their disputation in the book."
Conclussion:
Am afraid if these hetaed debates goes on it may divide our house into Pro-Maqari and Pro-Waziri camps. ZAGE-ZAGI kuna gardama a idanun Kanawa.....za suyi maku dariya fa.... me kace Gogannaka?
Appology:I appologise if i happens to up-set anybody with the little i wrote above.
Wassalamu alaikum.
Salaam all,
Well, certainly, if we have atleast two reasonable people appealing to our calm sensors, one woud not have any other alternative than to redirect his conscience. As Prophet of Islam would say " He is a hypocrite who would not not yield to the demand of ppl who appeal to his calm", so I have no any other alternative than to just let my hairs down.
Though as we continue to commune, I hope to, one day, give full details of why I tread this path in this discourse, which ofcourse as you all know is not my way of pursuing discourses.
But for now, we cannot deny the fact that our bringing these personal issues on here are not unconnected with the fact that in our personal correspondence with Usman he has constantly denied being our BLOOD inspite of the overwhelming evidence we have against his claims. Our understanding therefore are increased by the way he reacted to these postings.
It is also to show us all that when anybody makes it a habit to ridicule and attack the person he is debating with, the person may have higher tendensies to backfire with maximum degree of damage done to his attacker at the risk of WHATEVER it is. For humanbeings are not a collection of DATA but an embodiment of EMOTION and REASON.
Also a situation where a born Muslim relative who is known to have even committed Qur'an to his memory, while here with us, would come and deny even our concept of God with a claim of some thinking that can be likened to the revelations sent down to Muhammad, is very unfortunate o to the family and the Umma in general. These ppl are of course most dangerous in this crittical period of renancent Islam. Therefore giving them a medium of expression may not even be desirous and better if there inconsistencies exposed.
Though I did not wish to send Usman away from k-online. I had wanted him see that caution is needed around and while he has his ideas to express, he should not in anyway try sitting on anybody. Part of this also is the inevitable truth that emotions, REAL or FAKED have the density to DESTROY or GIVE LIFE, contrary to his convictions.
I pray he will hear me and come back.