Churches in Saudi Arabia?[/s]
Time Magazine and other news agencies are reporting that negotiations are underway between Saudi Arabia and the Vatican, about the possibility of opening the first Christian church in the Kingdom.
To date, Islam is the only religion permitted to be worshipped publicly in Saudi Arabia. Some argue that freedom of religion should prevail, and that Muslims should reciprocate the freedom of religion enjoyed in non-Muslim countries. Others hold that Saudi Arabia is the center of Islamic history and culture, and therefore Islam should have special status in the Kingdom.
Bamali, Islam already has special status in the Kingdom. It is the only game in town and has always been for decades if not century. If the Kingdom changes its policy to allow for freedom of worship, it will be viewed as a gesture of goodwill by non muslim residents and allies of the Saudi government alike. I think if and when that happens, many religious skeptics of the Saudi government's rigid stance of religious freedom will begin to view the Kingdom in a different light. Aside from this however, I think having a church or churches in Saudi will enable the non muslim skilled migrants workers and other foreign professionals in the Kingdom to worship freely in their own religious places where freedom of association and religious expression is protected. I believe such a move is a positive one.
the first time i read the story about siting a church in
saudi arabia i become so confused, does this means
that the christians living in saudi dont attend sunday
services and other church activities? if yes, then why
did the saudi government in the first place grant them
access to the country if they cant perform their freedom
of religion?
as far as Islam is concern, i didnt come across anywhere
that it restricts Ahl Kitab (Christians from performing their
religious rites) however, the case of Mecca and Medina
are well noted and absolute exception, but what about
the other states of the kingdom?
Assalamu alaikum,
When I first see this thread what came to me is; where are they going to build these churches? As DB pointed out, the case of Mecca and Medina are taken into consideration...then fine and good. But still, though don't know actually why, I feel unhappy with the move as for we muslims all over the world take S.A as pure, holy and restricted city for muslims.
Mecca and Madina could not get churches.
Other parts can get churches.
Are there mosques in the Vatican city?
Give them an inch they take 100meters......They'r not the Ahlil-kital the Qur'an is refering to, the churches of today a mere business outfits looking for money to destroy Islam and it's followers...
Quote from: gogannaka on April 03, 2008, 01:47:31 PM
Mecca and Madina could not get churches.
Other parts can get churches.
Are there mosques in the Vatican city?
Interesting question. The Vatican City is the smallest city-state in the world. It's territory is a meagre 110-acre enclave sectioned off inside the city of Rome, and it only has 800 residents. This tiny population consists almost entirely of clergymen, cardinals and the Pope. The Swiss Guard accounts for the rest. One might consider the Vatican to be a glorified monastery of sorts. As such, it is easy to see why the Vatican is 100% Roman Catholic.
So are there any mosques in the Vatican City? No, because Catholic clergymen do not need a mosque. Should a Muslim find himself in the Vatican, he needs only to drive a few minutes to outer Rome, where his needs are more easily met. Now what is a Christian to do in Saudi Arabia, a full-fledged nation of 27 million? Public non-Muslim worship does not exist there, as as such there are no church buildings (this is for you, Dan Borno.) I read recently that Qatar just opened its first actual church building since the advent of Islam there eons ago - very hard to believe. As long as we're making comparisons, Muslims can visit the Vatican city as tourists and lay workers like most other people. Saudi's King Abdullah was recently hosted at the Vatican City last November. In contrast, can non-muslims actually enter Mecca or Medina? Gogannaka and Dan Borno, they cannot!
Guys, lets face the facts. Human rights groups have been singing about these issues for ages. Today, the fact that Muslim countries score badly on religious tolerance issues - with Saudi Arabia leading the pack - is well known. I strongly doubt that such things can be explained away with comparisons to the Vatican.
Lionger,
The issue of not allowing non-muslim enter into either Mecca or Medina is something that comes in our holy script. It says that these two cities are sacred and thus no unbeliever should be allowed into them. So...think there is nothing if Saudi govt abide by that.
And about Vatican, where is it mentioned in your scripts that non-christian shouldn't be allowed into it? Don't know but pls if you do know let us know.
And lastly, I'll, inshaAllah, look for the crudility of what you said on the size and other stuff about Vatican because if thats what you say its then...thanks.
Just a small point. The koran considers those who follow judaism and those who follow Christ to be "believers". This appears to have been lost in recent years.
Quote from: Dave_McEwan_Hill on April 05, 2008, 08:03:27 PM
Just a small point. The koran considers those who follow judaism and those who follow Christ to be "believers". This appears to have been lost in recent years.
?
that is utterly bad. no mosque in vatican, no church in saudi arabia, period!
Quote from: Muhsin on April 05, 2008, 04:22:43 PM
Lionger,
The issue of not allowing non-muslim enter into either Mecca or Medina is something that comes in our holy script. It says that these two cities are sacred and thus no unbeliever should be allowed into them. So...think there is nothing if Saudi govt abide by that.
Actually this is fine by me. My comments about Mecca and Medina were designed to correct gogannaka's and Dan Borno's comment that the absense of Church buildings that made those cities unique. On the contrary, that is actually the norm everywhere in Saudi Arabia, by law.
Quote
And about Vatican, where is it mentioned in your scripts that non-christian shouldn't be allowed into it? Don't know but pls if you do know let us know.
The concept of the Vatican does not exist in the Bible, but that is completely besides the point. My point is that there is no reason why a miniscule town of 800+ Catholic clergymen should be held up to the same standards of religious freedom as a full-fledged nation of 27 million!
Quote
And lastly, I'll, inshaAllah, look for the crudility of what you said on the size and other stuff about Vatican because if thats what you say its then...thanks.
Try Wikipedia. My comments are consistent with the article there on the Vatican.
What about all the mosques all over Europe in every Christian country? Every city in UK has several mosques. This is a very silly thread.
I think that in the next 1000 yrs, there will never be a church constructed in either Mecca or Medina. In the rest of the Saudi Kingdom maybe, but certainly not inside the vicinity of the two sacred cities.
We muslims really are the ones that have slipped so much that we have allowed a loop hole in which non muslims will accuse us of religious intolerance, Islam is the most tolerant of all religions. Islam doesnt recognize nation states as we know them today. All Muslims regardless of where they live should be governed by one creed, one set of laws (Sharia) etc, etc. There should only be one Islamic ummah with a recognized ruler... the caliph. He should then have his governors and underlings who rule as his viceroys in the various regions of the world. In this scenario, this means that where ever there is a predominantly islamic population with a minority non muslim population, those non muslim population are given full rights to worship what they will, given full protection from harm from fellow citizens or enemies at the border. Their civic rights must not be jeopardized in anyway. In return they pay the jizya..a tax for the protection that they will receive from the state, mainly in times of war etc (that is what the tax is primarily for). In this scenario, if Mecca and Medina are exempted from having non muslim inhabitants, then no one will complain of violation of human rights of worship, since Mecca and Medina will not in essence belong to a country called Saudi Arabia, but will belong to the Islamic ummah as a community in which freedom of worship is given to every non muslim living amongst muslims.
Islam is the most tolerant of all religions? Based on what? Give specific examples please.
I want to say also that I purchased a copy of the Koran for extensive study/research. Yesterday, I was reading a few passages or chapters, and one thing was very noticeable in the few passages that I read. I noticed that there were constant references to Jews and Christians. Whenever an admonition was given to the Muslims, there seemed to be an immediately attack or criticism of Jews and Christians. Now, I haven't read the entire book, but I am hoping the entire book does not follow the same pattern.
In any case, going back to the claims about Islam being the most tolerant, what about Buddhism for instance? Buddhist are not critical of anyone. They do not threaten or attempt to force their ideology on anyone. All they do is mediate and pursue a level of mental and spiritual discipline. I know for a fact based on obvious examples that there is no way Islam is anywhere near Buddhism in tolerance. If there is a disagreement with this view, please feel free to object.
Quote from: Dave_McEwan_Hill on April 05, 2008, 08:03:27 PM
Just a small point. The koran considers those who follow judaism and those who follow Christ to be "believers". This appears to have been lost in recent years.
Dave,
Can you qoute the Glorious Qur'an and back up your claim? Christains and Jews are referred to as people of the book. Only those among them that embraces Islam are believers. Kaji ko Megemu?
Quote from: Dave_McEwan_Hill on April 10, 2008, 12:06:41 AM
What about all the mosques all over Europe in every Christian country? Every city in UK has several mosques. This is a very silly thread.
Sincerely speaking, I had never thought a person of your standard, worldly kownledge and exprience could have either say or think something like this. In short thats apparently demeaning! Demeaning!
As you said, again, what about all the churches that are in Muslims-Arabian countries? If not Saudia (which its now allow for Christians to build their chuches), which country can you there are no churches? You see...what you have above said is unfair.
Quote from: King on April 10, 2008, 04:40:37 AM
Islam is the most tolerant of all religions? Based on what? Give specific examples please.
I want to say also that I purchased a copy of the Koran for extensive study/research. Yesterday, I was reading a few passages or chapters, and one thing was very noticeable in the few passages that I read. I noticed that there were constant references to Jews and Christians. Whenever an admonition was given to the Muslims, there seemed to be an immediately attack or criticism of Jews and Christians. Now, I haven't read the entire book, but I am hoping the entire book does not follow the same pattern.
Fact is; you couldn't just by mere reading of its chapters and verses grasp what the actual meaning is, King. I wholeheartedly reckon and believe you are an intellegent and understanding folk, yet I would, if you really wanna know and judge what is there in Qur'an, advise you to look for its (tafsir) interpretation from other sources--ulamas or scholars. Good luck.
Quote from: King on April 10, 2008, 04:40:37 AM
In any case, going back to the claims about Islam being the most tolerant, what about Buddhism for instance? Buddhist are not critical of anyone. They do not threaten or attempt to force their ideology on anyone. All they do is mediate and pursue a level of mental and spiritual discipline. I know for a fact based on obvious examples that there is no way Islam is anywhere near Buddhism in tolerance. If there is a disagreement with this view, please feel free to object.
That above suggests in some ways as you are a Buddhist :o . You one?
Quote from: King on April 10, 2008, 04:40:37 AM
Islam is the most tolerant of all religions? Based on what? Give specific examples please.
I want to say also that I purchased a copy of the Koran for extensive study/research. Yesterday, I was reading a few passages or chapters, and one thing was very noticeable in the few passages that I read. I noticed that there were constant references to Jews and Christians. Whenever an admonition was given to the Muslims, there seemed to be an immediately attack or criticism of Jews and Christians. Now, I haven't read the entire book, but I am hoping the entire book does not follow the same pattern.
In any case, going back to the claims about Islam being the most tolerant, what about Buddhism for instance? Buddhist are not critical of anyone. They do not threaten or attempt to force their ideology on anyone. All they do is mediate and pursue a level of mental and spiritual discipline. I know for a fact based on obvious examples that there is no way Islam is anywhere near Buddhism in tolerance. If there is a disagreement with this view, please feel free to object.
Islam is the most tolerant religion, whether u like to believe it or not, will never change that fact. One of the reasons why non muslims can never be reconciled with Islam is becos u are already jaundiced and prejudiced against the religion. You know nothing about it but what is presented to you by the western media and the islamophobes online. You bought a Quran yesterday and are reading it. I commend you on that even though you are looking at it to find fault not to find the truth or going through it with an unbiased mind, but one never knows, guidance only comes from God and no man can make you believe something that Allah Does not open up your eyes to.
Anyway, if you want to know just how tolerant Islam is, go and look up the life of the Prophet Mohammad SAW, he was the epitome of tolerance and if only all muslims could emulate him, the world would be a better place. By the way, I would like to inform you that just reading a translation of the Qur'an is not reading the Qur'an itself, because the Qur'an is a message in many layers and its interpretation can only be applied in the contexts that it was revealed. In order to know that, one has to go and study each and every verse and why it was revealed and under what circumstances it was revealed. Also the Arabic language that the Qur'an is written has so many words which no English translation can do justice to. Therefore just reading the Qur'an by yourself and a translated version at that, will never ever give you the reality of it or its nuances and meanings. You have to go and meet with an muallim a learned teacher of translation and commentary.
About the issue of attacks on Jews.. Glory to God most High! The jews and christians are not being attacked. These are matter of fact statements about them and their behavior. If the statements are unpalatable to you, that is because the actions of the Jews and the christians were unpalatable. Let me give u an example, the Jews' headstrong behavior towards Prophet Moses is extensively discussed, their worship of the calf after they KNEW the truth about God, since He Brought them out of Egypt under the leadership of Moses. If that is not reprehensible behavior, I dont know what is. As for christians, how about the betrayal of jesus by Judas? How about portraying Jesus as the son of God when he clearly was not? Allah SWT in the Quran Said that the birth of Jesus is like the creation of Adam. Adam had no father and mother, while Jesus had a mother and no father. So I am asking you on the scale of difficulty who was more difficult to create, one who already had a mother or one who was created from nothing?
The jews have earned the wrath of God on them and the christians have strayed from the true path of God, and those are the facts discussed in the Qur'an in no uncertain terms and without mincing matters. If it sounds unpalatable to non muslims, well too bad. Its the TRUTH.
King, as a true Christian, do you really believe that
Christianity is the true religion of God?
If yes, do you believe that there is no any other way
to heaven but Christianity?
I want the answers to be either yes or no pls.
lol Husnna...I am not even sure where to begin. Please let me make it perfectly know that I am not in anyway attacking or trying to attack to Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, animism, or any other religion for that matter. I think we've shifted some from the topic, even those the shift has some relevance. However, if anyone makes such a gigantic claim about a religion, I and many others may be inclined to question such claims based on facts, based on culture, based on history, based on doctrine, based on literature, based on the characteristics of the religion, based on the message of its clerics and behavior of its adherents who draw their inspiration from the religion.
There are the things I would look at as empirical evidence to establish whether or not such and such a religion is tolerant. I cannot simply go by your opinion and your "believe it or not" assertion. What if I came and told you that America is the most righteous nation on earth.....believe it or not. Would you believe that without questioning such a declaration?
Anyway, I will respond later to some other parts of your comments. Dan Borno, I will respond also to you. Take it easy guys.
Quote from: King on April 10, 2008, 04:16:55 PM
Take it easy guys.
if you want us to take it easy, you better ease us.
The thread has been lost here and all we are getting is a selection of intolerance.
I prefer reading issues like this, instead of pinching in but lets all be civil and discussion can keep rolling.
Personally, I think anything or nothing is at the discretion of God. "HE" alone knows what he will predetermine in the nearest or longest future. We are just voicing out our concerns here. However, in this century of extreme conflict of religious interest being the central point, which is disengaging parts of the world and destroying lives, I say best be..........."to each his own". All religions should maintain their core zones of religious worships. It will raise great hostility if a church is to be built in Saudi Arabia and so it will be if a mosque was to be built and situated near one of the major basilicas of Rome let say St. Peter's. Very possibly, it might be hard for the Christians to put up with too. If a Synague, a Temple, shrine and/or any place of worship was to be built in a country where 99% of the citizens practice the same religion, very likely, it will be a worrisome matter. Most religions are not intolerable per se. The intolerability of all religion is not an evolving matter and pre-history had it, it lies in the division of religion as every devout follower believes, theirs is the true religion. This is just the reason for the illuminated or opaque hostile ground any religion would resistively show if another religious worship place was to be in close proximity and in their territorial grounds.
But what I believe we share here is our no mindedness for religious extremism. Respect others and just practice your creed.
Finito! Abi?
Dan Borno, sorry I was away for a few days and never got a chance to respond to the question you directed at me. First off however, I must ask you how you arrived at the conclusion that I am a true Christian? I am just curious. What is your assumption based on?
In any case, to answer your question directly, (and this is my opinion) I don't believe Christianity, Islam, or any religion for that matter is a religion of God. Religion is a man created ideology. It is not bad necessarily, but in the name of religion, mankind has wreaked havoc all over the world. Religion can be a good thing, because it mostly consist of values, rules, traditions, admonitions, etc that should guide a man or a woman's conduct and life pattern.
Religion has very little nothing to do with God. For instance, God gave instructions to the Isrealites after the exodus from Egypt. Those instructions were rules which we commonly refer to as the law of Moses. Aside from the law, there were instructions regarding hygiene, diet, relationships, infidelity, etc. These were simply instructions that later became traditions. Ultimately, man termed it all "Religion". God simply sets his rules and expects us to obey. We may choose to obey or disobey those rules, and whichever decision we make in that regard carries consequences. No knowledgeable Christian will tell you that Christianity is the highway to God. There is no such teaching in the Bible. Christianity does not guarantee anyone salvation, and again, the Bible DOES NOT preach this.
What the Bible says however, is that Christ is the Savior. The Bible teaches that Christ is the redeemer and that through him, Salvation for one's soul is assured. Christ himself said very clearly, that HE is the way, the TRUTH, and the LIFE. Now, those are not my words. Those are the words of Christ, and no other character in the Bible or anywhere else that I know of has made such a bold declaration when it comes to such a divine religious realm.
So, to make it clear, there is another way to heaven. Christianity is not that way, Christ is the way. This is what I believe by faith. But let me also add here that I am not sure what your question has to do with the subject of this discussion. The discussion is really about church buildings in Saudi Arabia, and why the Saudi government and many muslim nations refuse to grant the same religious freedoms that Muslims enjoy in western societies to non muslims in Islamic countries.
Husnna accused me of reading the Koran with an ulterior motive. She said I was already prejudiced, and that my motive for purchasing a copy of the Koran was to find fault in it. Now, such defeatist attitude is completely uncalled for. How can she presumptuous of my intent? Isn't it possible that I want to read the koran so as to be more knowledgeable in Islamic belief and tradition so that I'll have a better understanding about Muslims generally? You know, each time I make a reference to a koranic passage during a discourse, there are always people that charge that I have taken things out of context, or that I failed to understand the context in which such an event or comment was made. And so in order to always put things in the proper perspective, I decided to read the koran from the beginning so as to avoid any confusion. I would think that is a smart and scholarly thing to do, but hey, even that is insufficient according to Husnna.
Here is what Husnna said....."By the way, I would like to inform you that just reading a translation of the Qur'an is not reading the Qur'an itself, because the Qur'an is a message in many layers and its interpretation can only be applied in the contexts that it was revealed. In order to know that, one has to go and study each and every verse and why it was revealed and under what circumstances it was revealed. Also the Arabic language that the Qur'an is written has so many words which no English translation can do justice to. Therefore just reading the Qur'an by yourself and a translated version at that, will never ever give you the reality of it or its nuances and meanings. You have to go and meet with an muallim a learned teacher of translation and commentary."
This complicates matters doesn't it? As i said earlier, I took up reading the Koran from page one so that I am not lost in the series of events contained therein, and as they unfold. This way, there is little chance that I'll be lost in its contextual application and understanding. But according to Husnna, after putting in all that effort, it still isn't enough because English language lacks the proper words to adequately translate the koran. Now, I think that's garbage. That comment right there erects a wall in ones true desire to critically analyze a book because if I read the koran as clearly as it is written and arrive at some different conclusion, then the language defense is thrown in the mix as the cause of my own different interpretation. I don't think that is fair either. Let a book speak for itself. Why can't I read the Koran by myself? What is the use of my education if I cannot read on my own? The Word of God which is supposed to be a revelation for all mankind cannot and should not be that complex for people to understand. What good would it be if I have to rely on someone to instruct me about something I can clearly read and decipher on my own. If I base my knowledge of it on someone else's instruction, what prevents that person from instructing me falsely especially if he has an agenda?
And Husnna, I think you are a smart person, but I am surprised you uttered those comments. Do you rely on a muallim for your own religious growth? If you do, I don't. I do my own study and make my own discoveries as I go along. This way, I cannot be swayed by falsehood. Then you went on to make the following commentary....
"Let me give u an example, the Jews' headstrong behavior towards Prophet Moses is extensively discussed, their worship of the calf after they KNEW the truth about God, since He Brought them out of Egypt under the leadership of Moses. If that is not reprehensible behavior, I dont know what is. As for christians, how about the betrayal of jesus by Judas? How about portraying Jesus as the son of God when he clearly was not? Allah SWT in the Quran Said that the birth of Jesus is like the creation of Adam. Adam had no father and mother, while Jesus had a mother and no father. So I am asking you on the scale of difficulty who was more difficult to create, one who already had a mother or one who was created from nothing?
The jews have earned the wrath of God on them and the christians have strayed from the true path of God, and those are the facts discussed in the Qur'an in no uncertain terms and without mincing matters. If it sounds unpalatable to non muslims, well too bad. Its the TRUTH."
True, the Jews are very head strong people. Not very different from their distant relatives, the Arabs. This is why no matter how much the Arabs gang up on them, they refuse to be intimidated. As a matter of fact, they waste no time in extracting their revenge quickly if their enemies strikes. It must be very frustrating to the Arab World. I feel their frustration. But even though the 'wrath' of God is upon the Jews, it strikes me as odd, how they manage to stand out technologically, politically, economically, academically, and developmentally in the region they live. God must care about them. The Bible did prophesy a lot of things about the Jews. Many of the Old testament books clearly prophesied the repentance of Israel and their return to their ancestral lands. These prophesies were made before Islam came in the scene. So go figure. Research the following book, and please note, you need no helper to help you understand its context. These verses are clear enough for anyone to comprehend.
Ezekiel 20:34 - "I will bring you from the nations and gather you from the countries where you have been scattered -- with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with outpoured wrath."
Isaiah 11:11-12 NIV - "In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the sea. He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth."
The prophet Jeremiah prophesied about 600 years B.C. just as the nation of Judah was being destroyed and the people taken captive into the land of Babylon. He spoke of a day when Jews would once again purchase land within the ancient territory. That is precisely what returning Jews did, starting nearly a century ago - they bought back the land.
Jeremiah 32:44 NIV - "Fields will be bought for silver, and deeds will be signed, sealed and witnessed in the territory of Benjamin, in the villages around Jerusalem, in the towns of Judah and in the towns of the hill country, of the western foothills and of the Negev, because I will restore their fortunes, declares the LORD."
Now, let me shift course here for a minute and comment on your questions regarding Christ. You said Christians have strayed from God. Well, the question is who hasn't strayed from God? Muslims? The very first man, Adam, the one you made reference to, strayed from God, so what does that tell you?
It says in Romans Chapter 3 v23 that "ALL have Sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God". See, it says ALL, and that includes Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, Arabs, Africans, etc. Nothing sounds unpalatable to me. There is no sin that God fails to condemn, and the Bible isn't lenient in its condemnation of sin. I have the truth and I know the truth, so the truth does not bother me. Can you handle the truth though?
Your comparison of Jesus and Adam is one that I still am not sure about what you are getting at.
You say Christians portray Jesus as the son of God when he is not. Well whose son is he? You pointed out that he was not fathered by a man. Apparently he performed miracles no other prophet in the Bible or the Koran ever performed. He brought about a religious reform never witnessed before his time, and above all was a perfect man in character. Let me also add that he a peaceful man. The koran does not dispute any of those attributes. The Koran also regards Christ as a prophet and Muslims say a prophet cannot lie. Yet they refuse to believe Jesus when he says he is God's son. The argument is that Jesus never made such a claim, and that later day Christians corrupted the Bible by ascribing certain comments to Jesus.
The problem is Muslims cannot stop quoting the Bible. For one, it makes me wonder why anyone insist on quoting from a corrupt book, and if indeed the book is corrupt, please show me the portions that are corrupt, tell me when it was corrupted and by whom exactly.
Well said, Hafsy Lady
Wait for my reply, soon, inshaAllah. Like such discussion.
Quote from: King on April 13, 2008, 06:04:29 AM
I don't believe Christianity, Islam, or any religion for that matter is a religion of God.
Quote from: King on April 13, 2008, 06:04:29 AM
So, to make it clear, there is another way to heaven. Christianity is not that way, Christ is the way.
???
no more questions King - i rest my case.
DB, many thumb ups to you. You are really a critical reader. I too had some bits of surprised when I first read these words from King, but I decided to talk later, thats now but still I won't. Am attending a lecture.
King, where are you?
Hi Muhsin, I am actually attending a lecture too. Greetings to you and Dan Borno.