There is a dreadful disaster going on in the south and west of Sudan. Hundreds of thousands of people are threatened with famine and many are already dead, murdered by militias in the command of the Sudanese government. What is happening is genocide. The militias are arab Sudanese and they are killing the black Sudanese. They are driving all the people off their land and out of their villages to starve in the bush or be shot if they return to their homes. Many of the women are being raped.
Should not Nigeria and the OAU be demanding that the Sudanese government stop this?
Dave McEwan Hill
Salam
Well said Dave. I believe the Sudan situation has been ignored for so long and this is the time to act. The OAU, which is now called African Union, is as ineffective as a the Arab league. As the UN puts it, there are growing signs of 'ethnic cleasing' in the Dafur region. Ethnic cleansing as we all know is the diplomatic lingo for GENOCIDE in the UN.
There is no doubt about this. The Sudanese govt is as guilty as Hell and they must be held to account. I hope the UN sec Council will take a timely and decisive action in this regard. Otherwise, its Kigali all over again.
God help us all especially the destitutes at Dafur.
It is surprising that so many people in this forum who have very strong veiws on any topic no matter how trival have kept silent on this issue does this not generate wrong signals or open all sorts of room for unpleasnt interpretations.
QuoteIt is surprising that so many people in this forum who have very strong veiws on any topic no matter how trival have kept silent on this issue does this not generate wrong signals or open all sorts of room for unpleasnt interpretations.
perhaps, some are trying to come to terms over it,
perhaps some are at a loss for words,
perhaps some are actually out there doing something about it (they do say action speaks louder than words)..... it's quite possible y'know.
SALAM
Even though we harldy agree on any issue raised here, I believe wholeheartedly with mallamt's suggestion. For one, no person who watches TV can claim ignorance on this issue.
It should be known that this darfurians are both Black and Muslims. So even if we are not seeking justice for them because they are humans, then we should atleast feel for them. For there is a hadith that says, imanin dayanku bai cikaba har sai yasowa wani (musulmi) abunda yasoma kansa. meaning: " he who doesn't love for others what he loves for himself is defective in his iman (faith)".
God help us all
The bible says the same. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
The situation in Darfur is genocide against the black population. The deaths are around 30,000 to 50,000 and 1.2 million people have fled their villages- many of them to safety in Chad. There is now fear that the Sudan government by force is now stopping others from fleeing. It is obvious that the Sudan goverment is telling lies. The troops they sent in to "protect" the black Sudanese have joined the Arab militias in murdering them and driving them into the bush. If America wanted to do a good thing it would invade Sudan now and take the power from the crazed Arab killers.
salam
Mr David that quotation from the bible is common to all religions and cultures. I believe your intentions are sincere as to what needs to be done in Darfur but the 'how-it-should-be-done' part is not consistent with international laws.
Invading Sudan will not solve the problem rather, the Darfurians should be placed under a protectorate of 'international conscience' care. What this means is that a barrier, forceful or otherwise, should be divised which will 'separate' Darfurians from their attackers- IE Sudan Government and the Janjaweed.. By so doing, the world community will avert a catastrophy waiting to happen on a scale not been seen since Rwanda or Bosnia.
The UN security council has to pass a resolution calling for the use of force before US, or any country for that matter, can invade a country and pacify it. The complacent and corrupt UN is yet to pass such a resolution..
Lets all hope this resolution is passed soon...!
Peace be unto you all,
My conviction is our stay here for years have helped us in understanding the truth that nobody is under any obligation to respond to everything aboard. Many post by many different ppl, of maximum importance have passed here unresponded. People respond to post only when they wish to and feel the need.
Just as I chastised Yadudu the other day on his attempt to choose for k-onliners what and what to discuss I also desire that we eschew from imposing on people the obligation to respond to particular topics which we and only we believe are important enough.
Let's afford our brothers and sisters alike the power of introversy.
Quote...that we eschew from imposing on people the obligation to respond to particular topics which we and only we believe are important enough.
My, exact sentiments. Afterall, the moment we start responding merely because not doing so will not endear us to others, we lose our sincerity.
Having said that, I may hasten to add that the KO community has proven itself to be a caring one, which is what gave me reason to make my earlier comments, that maybe some are actually out doing something about it (i.e trying to put a stop to the carnage). For just as yadudu cited the tradition that requires us to wish for others what we wish for ourselves, another tradition also states that we ought not think the worse first. See the glass as half full instead instead of half empty
Give the KO family the benefit of the doubt... the silence is not an indicication of acceptance of the goings on in the Darfur region.
Salaam.
sallama
yallabai waziri allah shi kara maka iymani. ai kasan cewa bazanyi wannan kalamin don na soki sauran jama'a musulmiba. kamar yadda kasani, ba propaganda bane zance yan Darfur dinnan. wallahi akwai mutanen da ake kashewa day by day. As for saying people should respond, am sure I made it clear its is optional and it's the absolute prerrogative of one, like most people have, not to respond. And, I don't mean chastise anyone not responding. If I might have sounded that way then I am mistaken kuma ina neman gafara yallabai.'
Allah yabamu alheri.............amin
Quote from: "Dave_McEwan_Hill"If America wanted to do a good thing it would invade Sudan now and take the power from the crazed Arab killers.
It is so unfortunate that there are still some people who believe that America is doing a good job by invading sovereign countries. Iraq has been in flames for more than a year now, innocent lives are been killed on a daily basis. Afghanistan is not a better place too, just last week, Aid organisations working there issued a communique that the level of killings is going at an alarming rate, hence they are going to withdraw from the country.
So much has been revealed about the socalled "liberation of the iraqis" . Thanks to the Abu-Ghuraib prison saga, then the Butler report and now the Mother of all revelations, Fareinheit 9/11 -a documentary released in july by Academy Award-winning filmmaker Michael Moore. Mr Bush is determined to imposed Democracy in the middle east, when he is not a democrat .
The earlier America stops interfering in other countries affairs, the better and the socalled terrorism will be no more, because interference is the root cause of everything. Invading Sudan will only aggravate the problem rather than solving it, as in the case of Iraq and Afghanistan.
United Nation and African Union have taken a nice step towards solving the problem. What we can do at individual level is to keep on praying so that every thing will be solved amicably.
Quote from: "_Waziri_"Peace be unto you all,
My conviction is our stay here for years have helped us in understanding the truth that nobody is under any obligation to respond to everything aboard. Many post by many different ppl, of maximum importance have passed here unresponded. People respond to post only when they wish to and feel the need.
Just as I chastised Yadudu the other day on his attempt to choose for k-onliners what and what to discuss I also desire that we eschew from imposing on people the obligation to respond to particular topics which we and only we believe are important enough.
Let's afford our brothers and sisters alike the power of introversy.
_Waziri_
I may agree with you to some extent but the truth is that no one is trying to say all must contribute to this subject matter. But again we must not bury our heads in the ground and pretend that this thing is not happening. The truth is that majority of contributors have commented or had a lot to say on issues similar to this so why not this? Or do we only say or contribute when it suites us? Right now not just in this forum but eleswhere in the world sudan/dafur isssue is topical. Are we not here to discuss matters? And anyway the subject matter is clearly marked and I do not expect anyone not interested in this topic to even try to see what is being said about the matter here. So my dear friend while you may be right that you no one should be made to comment or contribute on any issue but also no one goes to the house of a person he is trying to avoid. We are here to share ideas, to agree and disagree, to develope an understanding and respect for each other etc we can not do acheive all that if we do not discuss even topics that make us uncomfortable
Quote from: "myadudu"sallama
yallabai waziri allah shi kara maka iymani. ai kasan cewa bazanyi wannan kalamin don na soki sauran jama'a musulmiba. kamar yadda kasani, ba propaganda bane zance yan Darfur dinnan. wallahi akwai mutanen da ake kashewa day by day. As for saying people should respond, am sure I made it clear its is optional and it's the absolute prerrogative of one, like most people have, not to respond. And, I don't mean chastise anyone not responding. If I might have sounded that way then I am mistaken kuma ina neman gafara yallabai.'
Allah yabamu alheri.............amin
myadudu
You must not be appologetic please for anyone to think that you made your comments on sudan because you are trying to get at muslims, is childish and is exactly the kind of person(s) the forum does not need. The fact that the attackers in dafur happen to be muslims and the victims are non muslims can not be really said to have any thing to do with islam. What is happening in dafur is criminal and that is it we must just condem it, if it had anything to do with islam same would have been happening right now in other muslim countries. We must not just allow people to hide behind the veil of islam (or any other religion for that matter) and commit attrocites. if silence is kept for the fear of being criticised the wrong message will be sent (yo know the saying that silence means consent)
Quote from: "mallamt"
So my dear friend while you may be right that you no one should be made to comment or contribute on any issue but also no one goes to the house of a person he is trying to avoid. We are here to share ideas, to agree and disagree, to develope an understanding and respect for each other etc we can not do acheive all that if we do not discuss even topics that make us uncomfortable
Mallamt, I am not sure if you really intend friendship with us around here. You appear to insist we should discuss Dafur. You are trying to read meaning into our freedom of choice not to disscuss it. You are even threading the oblong path of insinuating that the topic makes us uncomfortable.
Now mallamt did anybody question the motive behind why you did not condole and appear sympathetic to us when we lost our father Alhaji Salisu Usman Danyaro? From what kind of planet are you that you do not think it an obligation to identify with others when they are mourning the lost of their loved ones?
OK mallamt we attach alot of maybe's to why you are not identifying with us in that respect and we intend to allow you be. But don't ever deem it necessary to complain again when anybody chose not to respond to anything, right?
I remain most grateful.
Mr Dave, is it ok i call you a hypocrite?
AGREED WE GOT A MAJOR PROBLEM IN SUDAN, PLEASE WOULD YOU TELL US ABOUT CHECHENYA, PALESTINE, KASHMIR AND PHILIPINES?
I AM NOT SURPRISED AT THE LOOKS YOU HAVE ON YOUR FACE AS YOU READ, ITS NATURAL TO BE BLANK IF YOUR ONLY SOURCE OF INFORMATION IS "HOLY" BBC AND CNN.
do we have crises elsewhere in the world? OLDER CRISES? is your intention to make us take a stance against the sudanese? Do you think we lack humanity? and your putting up this post would suddenly awaken us? Well your words "America should invade" ? What should i think of you then? Of all the things you have been saying "i believe america bla bla bla to be evil".
You are a retired man right? Means you have seen the world maybe 3 times more than most of us, why dont you start telling us the root Problems of Cehchenya, Balkans, Palestine, Algeria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kashmir, Chinese Muslim Province, Thailand, and Philipines. Thier Solutions and if an invasion is necessery then who should be the invader.
WE COMPLETELY BELIEVE DARFUR IS A MAJOR PROBLEM, WETHER THEY ARE CHRISTIANS, MUSLIMS, OR IDOL WORSHIPPERS, THEY ARE HUMANS!. BUT WE ARENT IN A POSITION TO HELP, LOOK AT OUR ECONOMICAL SITUATION.
I CAN SEE ONLY TWO REASONS WHY YOU PUT UP THIS POST.
1) TO TURN US AGAINST THE SUDANESE (BROTHER AGAINST BROTHER) AN OLD METHOD OF THE WHITEMEN.
2) TO VEST YOUR ANGER FUELED BY THE "HOLY BBC". THERE ARE PLENTY OTHER AREAS AFFECTED BY SERIOUS PROBLEMS. START TALKING ABOUT THEM AND DONT FALL FOR THE TRICKS YOUR GOVERNMENT IS EMPLOYING TO GET IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN OFF YOUR MIND.
MY GOD! WHY DO PEOPLE ALLOW OTHERS TO RULE THEIR MINDS!
QuoteMallamt, I am not sure if you really intend friendship with us around here. You appear to insist we should discuss Dafur. You are trying to read meaning into our freedom of choice not to disscuss it. You are even threading the oblong path of insinuating that the topic makes us uncomfortable.
_Waziri_
I initially wasn't going to respond but then again I thought I should make some things clear to you. Firstly the topic of this thread is SUDAN DISASTER so what business do you have here if you do not want to discuss that? Why not just read the threads and leave it alone surely if you have to make a contribution you should make one or two but not tell us not to discuss it or suggest we are being made to discuss it, we came into this thread and out of choice contributed to the subject matter. No one is forced to contribute but when topics are threaded we expect contributions and when they are not forth coming any one in the forum has the right to question why and encourage contributions and that in no way infringes on the right to choice. Do you understand the difference my friend? There is a difference between the freedom of choice not to discuss an issue and the ducking an issue, those that are ducking an issue will always tell you about freedoms or rights or they divert and try to derail the subject matter. Those who want to exercise their freedom of choice not to contribute may read the threads or may not even visit the topic, but they will not contribute in any way to the topic.
QuoteNow mallamt did anybody question the motive behind why you did not condole and appear sympathetic to us when we lost our father Alhaji Salisu Usman Danyaro? From what kind of planet are you that you do not think it an obligation to identify with others when they are mourning the lost of their loved ones?
Now for a person who is chanting freedom to contribute etc this one blows me! What are you trying to suggest here exactly? If I may ask you how many people or nigerians have you mourned with today and sent them sympathy notes or whatever? Have you been to your local hospitals etc to mourn with bereaved families? Or is it that those ones are not important or you do not care? Does your not mourning or sending sympathy notes/greetings to the hundreds and thousands that are bereaved daily mean you do not care for them? I am just trying to get the drift of your suggestion.
QuoteOK mallamt we attach alot of maybe's to why you are not identifying with us in that respect and we intend to allow you be. But don't ever deem it necessary to complain again when anybody chose not to respond to anything, right?
You can attach as many maybes as you wish I sure do hope you have enough paper to do so. Who are the "us" you are talking about? As far as I know with respect to my sending/not sending condolence messages you are the only one to comment are you representing anyone or a group of people when you commented? With regard to my "complaining" it is arrogant of you and an infringement of my own rights to tell me or warn me not to complain when people do not contribute to a topic especially if I want to discuss it where is my own freedom which you seem to eschew in your statement. Please note that I am not saying people MUST contribute, but if they want to contribute they should do so on the topic of discussion. You do not go into a mathematics lecture wanting to have a sociology lecture and try to stop the lecture or stop mathmatics questions and or answers because what you wan is sociology. You go into the mathmatics lecture and contribute on mathematics or keep quite and observe.
Coming back to the question of dafur either you contribute or you keep silent and let those who are discussing it continue
al_hamza
I am not writing this in order to support daves motives or intentions, the reason I think the Dafur issue is here is because it is closer to "home". That is the way we must see it and discuss it, we should stop being defensive and say what about here there everywhere? Are we saying because attrocites occur in all these other places then it is okay if it occurs in dafur? more than 99% of the matters we discuss here we can not do anything about but our discussion opens up our minds, gives us information or insights we never had on an issue and thus enriches us some of us here in this forum are either in a position to influence policies or would one day be in that position. we learn things about what and how some of these wars and strife happen so that we know what to do to ensure they do not happen in our own environments. some of us from these may even end up taking humanitarian duties or jobs in affected areas. Do not be little the power of information and knowledge. On the other areas you have mentioned have you considered starting threads on their own issues? Maybe you should I am very sure that you will get contributions from this forum
Quote from: "mallamt"QuoteMallamt, I am not sure if you really intend friendship with us around here. You appear to insist we should discuss Dafur. You are trying to read meaning into our freedom of choice not to disscuss it. You are even threading the oblong path of insinuating that the topic makes us uncomfortable.
_Waziri_
I initially wasn't going to respond but then again I thought I should make some things clear to you. Firstly the topic of this thread is SUDAN DISASTER so what business do you have here if you do not want to discuss that? Why not just read the threads and leave it alone surely if you have to make a contribution you should make one or two but not tell us not to discuss it or suggest we are being made to discuss it, we came into this thread and out of choice contributed to the subject matter. No one is forced to contribute but when topics are threaded we expect contributions and when they are not forth coming any one in the forum has the right to question why and encourage contributions and that in no way infringes on the right to choice. Do you understand the difference my friend? There is a difference between the freedom of choice not to discuss an issue and the ducking an issue, those that are ducking an issue will always tell you about freedoms or rights or they divert and try to derail the subject matter. Those who want to exercise their freedom of choice not to contribute may read the threads or may not even visit the topic, but they will not contribute in any way to the topic.
QuoteNow mallamt did anybody question the motive behind why you did not condole and appear sympathetic to us when we lost our father Alhaji Salisu Usman Danyaro? From what kind of planet are you that you do not think it an obligation to identify with others when they are mourning the lost of their loved ones?
Now for a person who is chanting freedom to contribute etc this one blows me! What are you trying to suggest here exactly? If I may ask you how many people or nigerians have you mourned with today and sent them sympathy notes or whatever? Have you been to your local hospitals etc to mourn with bereaved families? Or is it that those ones are not important or you do not care? Does your not mourning or sending sympathy notes/greetings to the hundreds and thousands that are bereaved daily mean you do not care for them? I am just trying to get the drift of your suggestion.
QuoteOK mallamt we attach alot of maybe's to why you are not identifying with us in that respect and we intend to allow you be. But don't ever deem it necessary to complain again when anybody chose not to respond to anything, right?
You can attach as many maybes as you wish I sure do hope you have enough paper to do so. Who are the "us" you are talking about? As far as I know with respect to my sending/not sending condolence messages you are the only one to comment are you representing anyone or a group of people when you commented? With regard to my "complaining" it is arrogant of you and an infringement of my own rights to tell me or warn me not to complain when people do not contribute to a topic especially if I want to discuss it where is my own freedom which you seem to eschew in your statement. Please note that I am not saying people MUST contribute, but if they want to contribute they should do so on the topic of discussion. You do not go into a mathematics lecture wanting to have a sociology lecture and try to stop the lecture or stop mathmatics questions and or answers because what you wan is sociology. You go into the mathmatics lecture and contribute on mathematics or keep quite and observe.
Coming back to the question of dafur either you contribute or you keep silent and let those who are discussing it continue
Mallamt,
I think what Waziri was trying to tell you is that, as nobody questioned you when you decided not to condole Salisu,
so also you don't have the right to question anybody on why the issue of Dafur has not been discussed.
By the way, what do you think are the wrong signals that would be generated as a result of shying away from the Dafur issue?
barde
I do not think that you had to qoute my posting the way you did just to say what you wanted to say. You are making the thread too long and cumbersom please try to just state your point next time and qoute only if necessary.
I am glad that you seem to be able to read _waziri's_ mind and have given an explanation to his posting. When I read the second qoute of _waziri's_ posting either as an individual paragraph or in the whole context of the posting, it says a completely different thing from what you are trying to say in your explanetion. Yes nobody questioned me or those of us that did not send condolences yet nobody was stopped from questioning me (us) right? Everyone in this forum has the right to question why didn't those that did not send messages of condolence send messages, it is not my place to make anybody ask his/her questions I ask mine, why should I or anybody for that matter be responsible for someone else not asking a question that bothers them? So you logic that because no one asked me why I did not send a condolence message so I should not ask why are people not commenting on the Dafur issue is rubbish and childish! Furthermore, death in especially in natural circumstance in a family is a very personal thing there is no way you can ever try to compare it with a massacer. It is very rude, an insult for you or anybody to want to compare a personal loss to the massacre of multitudes. How could you even compare the two events? what kind of a person are you? I am very dissapointed in you, you are an embarrasement to all human beings with morals and the fear of God if this is the veiw you hold! So my friend I have every right to question why people are not commenting on the dafur matter, it is a right given to me and every other human being on the face of the planet by God to ask this or any other question, not you or anyone can give or take that right from me.
On what I think the wrong signals are, I will answer you this way do you think wrong signals are or may be sent when silence is kept on a topical issue? if not why?
Quote from: "mallamt"barde
I do not think that you had to qoute my posting the way you did just to say what you wanted to say. You are making the thread too long and cumbersom please try to just state your point next time and qoute only if necessary.
I am glad that you seem to be able to read _waziri's_ mind and have given an explanation to his posting. When I read the second qoute of _waziri's_ posting either as an individual paragraph or in the whole context of the posting, it says a completely different thing from what you are trying to say in your explanetion. Yes nobody questioned me or those of us that did not send condolences yet nobody was stopped from questioning me (us) right? Everyone in this forum has the right to question why didn't those that did not send messages of condolence send messages, it is not my place to make anybody ask his/her questions I ask mine, why should I or anybody for that matter be responsible for someone else not asking a question that bothers them? So you logic that because no one asked me why I did not send a condolence message so I should not ask why are people not commenting on the Dafur issue is rubbish and childish! Furthermore, death in especially in natural circumstance in a family is a very personal thing there is no way you can ever try to compare it with a massacer. It is very rude, an insult for you or anybody to want to compare a personal loss to the massacre of multitudes. How could you even compare the two events? what kind of a person are you? I am very dissapointed in you, you are an embarrasement to all human beings with morals and the fear of God if this is the veiw you hold! So my friend I have every right to question why people are not commenting on the dafur matter, it is a right given to me and every other human being on the face of the planet by God to ask this or any other question, not you or anyone can give or take that right from me.
On what I think the wrong signals are, I will answer you this way do you think wrong signals are or may be sent when silence is kept on a topical issue? if not why?
Haba Mallamt,
Meyayi zafi haka? calm down. It seems you wrongly interpreted what i wrote, i wasnt comparing the death of an individual with those that were masacred in dafur, i was just trying to make you understand that there are so many issues that you did not comment on and no body questioned you.
let me remind you that you were also silent on the issue, Dave posted the topic on 16th june, all you had to say after 15 days was to questioned people on why they didn't contribute, is that not shameful? you were accusing us of keeping silent when you did not say anything. I expected you to make your contribution before accusing any body of keeping silent.
:cry:
The killing in Darfur is continuing. There is no doubt that the Arab-based government of Sudan is attempting Genocide against Sudan's black people. I am glad that Nigeria has offerd to send troops to defend the refugees. I am surprised we are having arguments on Kano Online about trivial things while this goes on. So many Onliners are rightly angered by what Israel is doing to the Palestinians or about America's wicked behaviour in Iraq and Afghanistan and I don't understand why they are silent about the worse things going on very close to Nigeria in Sudan. Has the fact that the evil killers in Sudan (killing both Moslems and Christians) are Moslem confused and embarrassed many members?
Salaam,
Barde and all discerning readers. I am glad that you all can see and understand how this "Mallamt" is struggling tooth and nail in order to distort the meaning of my posting. One advice I have for him is whenever he is discussing anything of public relevance then he must consider the truth that his odience are capable of comprehending meanings. They can also see malignant intentions clearly when they are grossly mismanaged. Our successes in debates largely owe to the fact that we try doing justice not to ourselves only but to the topic and to the people who find us worthy of their response.
Again I will recommend that mallamt should go for a little more training in linguistics for him to undertand why a single person can use a WE for an I. Every learned person in this regard will tell you that there are two kinds of plural: Of respect and of number. Anyway, after that training I guess Mallamt will never ridicule himself again in this manner.
Sorry mallamt if I have been too harsh. You called for it. Next time you respond to everything on this board before you secure the right to read meaning into others' refusal to respond to anything. This is only the message and it is the same to anybody who thinks responding to some specific topics makes some feel uncomfortable. We are objective enough.
Sai anjima
Quote from: "Dave_McEwan_Hill":cry:
The killing in Darfur is continuing. There is no doubt that the Arab-based government of Sudan is attempting Genocide against Sudan's black people. I am glad that Nigeria has offerd to send troops to defend the refugees. I am surprised we are having arguments on Kano Online about trivial things while this goes on. So many Onliners are rightly angered by what Israel is doing to the Palestinians or about America's wicked behaviour in Iraq and Afghanistan and I don't understand why they are silent about the worse things going on very close to Nigeria in Sudan. Has the fact that the evil killers in Sudan (killing both Moslems and Christians) are Moslem confused and embarrassed many members?
Dave,
Agreed Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine etc "are not close to Nigeria" what of Banyamulanges? they are also under serious threat, infact more than a hundred were killed almost the same time you posted your thread but you decided to talked about Dafur alone, why? perhaps Banyamulanges are not been massacred by the "Crazed arab muslims". Will i be right to say you are confused and embarassed?
What you guys felt to understand is that as there are bad eggs among muslims, so also one can find bad eggs among christians and other religions, But what you are trying to portray is that all Christians are saints while the other name for muslims is devilishness. Can you, Mallamt, or any christian, tell us why the agony of Banyamulanges is not been discussed in this forum?
No time no see.. I have been busy on a different website, they have a nigeria radio station that site is http://www.nigeriaplanet.tk
check them out....
It look like the hausa/fulani support the sudan govt, thinking that they are muslim, but that is a mistake.. Most black muslim in darfur are hausas origin.. I just find that out,, I saw on CNN, one of them speaking hausa. I was shock.. So I wonder why nigeria, have not be involve in the last 20 years...my answer because your leader think , it is christain and muslim fighting... But the people in darfur are of Hausa origin.. do your research...well before you reply.
Barde
Najika, ama bari na gayama gaskiya, bana tsworon kowa sai Allah don haka gaskiya ko bataye dadi ba sai an fade ta. Some of you are trying to ensure that you derail the subject matter of this thread. Let me answer some of what you said
QuoteIt seems you wrongly interpreted what i wrote, i wasnt comparing the death of an individual with those that were masacred in dafur, i was just trying to make you understand that there are so many issues that you did not comment on and no body questioned you.
Now I am not sure if you read my post or not but that is your business the thing is that if you did not read it please cease from making statements like the one qouted above you are embarassin yourself. Here is a bit of what I said
QuoteYes nobody questioned me or those of us that did not send condolences yet nobody was stopped from questioning me (us) right? Everyone in this forum has the right to question why didn't those that did not send messages of condolence send messages, it is not my place to make anybody ask his/her questions I ask mine, why should I or anybody for that matter be responsible for someone else not asking a question that bothers them?
And typical of you and your cunning ways you artisticaly tried to avoid this statement and thus you did not even answer it. Again you said
Quotelet me remind you that you were also silent on the issue, Dave posted the topic on 16th june, all you had to say after 15 days was to questioned people on why they didn't contribute, is that not shameful? you were accusing us of keeping silent when you did not say anything.
You are truly in the art (or atleast try to be in it) of telling half truth, concealing facts and twisting them. You have been generous and effecent enough to tell us that I only commented on the dafur issue after 15 days from its posting and you "cleverly" avoided saying how many times I visited this site or that thread from the date it was posted, nor do you even attempt to say when I visited this site or thread last before the date of my posting questioning the silence. So could it be that I only visited this site and the thread after 15 days from the date of the posting from the date of my last visit? If yes then why are you trying to give an impression that I had nothing to say or contribute until after 15 days? If no then why don't you give factual information of my visits? If you do not have the information on my visits or can not access them then why do you try to give the impression you do not even know yourself?
Quote from: "_Waziri_"Salaam,
Again I will recommend that mallamt should go for a little more training in linguistics for him to undertand why a single person can use a WE for an I. Every learned person in this regard will tell you that there are two kinds of plural: Of respect and of number. Anyway, after that training I guess Mallamt will never ridicule himself again in this manner.
Atleast now I understand why you can not comprehend my postings. I also note that based on what you are saying the WE used by you is Of respect (to use your term) and WE in your english means I. Very interesting, here is the definition and usage of we, kindly note that we is recognised in the english langauge as the plural of ME. WE 1 the persons speaking or writing: used to refer to the speaker or writer and another or others, sometimes including those addressed: personal pronoun in the first person plural: we is the nominative form, us the objective, ours the possessive, and ourselves (or, by a king, etc., ourself ) the reflexive and intensive; our is the possessive pronominal adjective
2 I: used by a monarch, editor, judge, etc. to indicate that the authority of his or her position or profession is represented
3 you: used in direct address as in encouraging or admonishing an invalid, a child, etc. [shall we take our medicine now?]
QuoteSorry mallamt if I have been too harsh. You called for it. Next time you respond to everything on this board before you secure the right to read meaning into others' refusal to respond to anything. This is only the message and it is the same to anybody who thinks responding to some specific topics makes some feel uncomfortable. We are objective enough
What! don't flatter yourself are you new to this forum? You are a big lair if there is one thing I can see and say for sure about you is that you completely lack objectivity, so don't even go there!!
Quote from: "Barde"
Dave,
Agreed Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine etc "are not close to Nigeria" what of Banyamulanges? they are also under serious threat, infact more than a hundred were killed almost the same time you posted your thread but you decided to talked about Dafur alone, why? perhaps Banyamulanges are not been massacred by the "Crazed arab muslims". Will i be right to say you are confused and embarassed?
What you guys felt to understand is that as there are bad eggs among muslims, so also one can find bad eggs among christians and other religions, But what you are trying to portray is that all Christians are saints while the other name for muslims is devilishness. Can you, Mallamt, or any christian, tell us why the agony of Banyamulanges is not been discussed in this forum?
Barde
You see it is you and your type who give muslims and islam a bad name!! You are incapable of objectivity and fairness, you are incapable of calling wrong, wrong and right, right or white, white and black, black. Everything you do or say has a baise but your bias is not for truth or an ettempt for the truth. Who is here talking about bad eggs in islam? did we not write and condem the killings of muslims in plateau state (christains and muslims) in an unqualified term in this forum? did people (christains and muslims) in this forum not condem the invasion of iraq by the US? So what are you talking about? Why are you so petit with peoples lives? How can you narrow the value of peoples life to their beliefs? You are really an embarassment to any true muslim that much I know and can tell you from your utterances!
On the banyamulanges please I have said it before and I am saying it now if it is an issue why don't you start a thread on it? what is this thread about? The whole idea behind having this site designed the way it is is so that you can bring in as many topical issue as you want, did anyone in this forum stop you from starting a banyamulange thread? so why are you accusing others for not discussing it under the sudan disaster thread? why not start a banyamulange thread (probably no one even has as musch information on this matter as you do in this forum) and then complain if people do not contribute. Please grow up and stop being childish seek the truth and the truth shall set you free!!
Quote from: "Dave_McEwan_Hill":cry:
The killing in Darfur is continuing. There is no doubt that the Arab-based government of Sudan is attempting Genocide against Sudan's black people. I am glad that Nigeria has offerd to send troops to defend the refugees. I am surprised we are having arguments on Kano Online about trivial things while this goes on. So many Onliners are rightly angered by what Israel is doing to the Palestinians or about America's wicked behaviour in Iraq and Afghanistan and I don't understand why they are silent about the worse things going on very close to Nigeria in Sudan. Has the fact that the evil killers in Sudan (killing both Moslems and Christians) are Moslem confused and embarrassed many members?
Dave
You are right it is pity that we are here arguing why we should make or not make others discuss dafur in a thread for discussion the same issue. Yes I am quite glad and proud of my country for once again taking the leading role in trying to protect lives and property in another nation despite our own problems. I was fortunate enough to watch a bbc tv documentry on dafur where some nigerian military officers where interviewed, i just wished that people like barde would have watched it to see how both hausa muslim and christain nigerian military officers were describing the situation. The international community (UN) has again folded its arms while people are dying in that region and they are just talking of resolutions, it is the ruwanda thing coming again. The sudaness govt must be held responsible they have alot of questions to answer, their threats must be rebuffed and action taken if lives and property are to be saved if left to them the sudaness govt will allow the massacre continue under another guise
Quote from: "mallamt"Furthermore, death in especially in natural circumstance in a family is a very personal thing there is no way you can ever try to compare it with a massacer. It is very rude, an insult for you or anybody to want to compare a personal loss to the massacre of multitudes. How could you even compare the two events?
Mallamt,
I want you to sincerely confirm to me if the above quote is yours or not. If it is yours then am right to say you misinterpreted me.
Let's assume that 15 days after the dafur post was your first visit after it was posted. It is funny enough for you to gave the excuse of not visiting the forum regularly as to why you did not comment on the issue, it baffles me that it did not cross your mind that there are people who are not regulars as well.It is also disgracing that you just concluded after your first visit that Kanoonliners are shying away from the dafur issue.
Let me state categorically that if you are a FOOL, members of this forum are not. and i want you to please always read and understand before you comment on anything ok? otherwise you will only be making fool of yourself. I want you to go and ponder on the advice Waziri gave you, i strongly believe that it will help you in no small measure.
Quote from: "mallamt"al_hamza
I am not writing this in order to support daves motives or intentions, the reason I think the Dafur issue is here is because it is closer to "home". That is the way we must see it and discuss it.......
Mr. T, is Dafur closer to us than Yelwan Shendam? Uptill today the Torah militia are killing innocent Muslims.
Quote from: "mallamt"What! don't flatter yourself are you new to this forum? You are a big lair if there is one thing I can see and say for sure about you is that you completely lack objectivity, so don't even go there!!
So you have to thread the oblong path to calling me names. Why not just try proving me a liar by coming up with examples, citing intances where I told a lie. Yours is a case of defamation of character. It is criminal assault. You know Obasanjo filed a case against Media Trust the other time because one of their writers called him a thief. He claimed some good millions out of that case. It appears like I too am coming a way into making some good millions too. Mallamt, prove me a liar or I start tracing your IP adress into a court of justice to claim my good money.
Forumnites !!!! get ready for a juicy party. I will surely win a case.
Hi guys.
Just thought I may say a thing or two related to this issue.
1) Nigeria has sent almost 150 troops to the Darfur region to help broker and sustain the shaky cease fire.
2) The rebels and the govt of Sudan have indicated their willingness to continue peace talks in Abuja.
And now onto mallamt....
I have noticed, and many others have also, that mallamt tends to be confrontational and sectional. He seems to blow up issues that deal with Islam and Muslims ( the darfur post) and then down play other issues (like the Zimbabwean farmers).
Like Waziri said, mallamt seems incapable of tolerating dissenting opinions. He resorts to name calling and blackmail, both of which are signs of desperation.
I guess this topic has been flogged enough so it'll be better if we find another issue to talk about. The Olympics for example ?
In getting ready for mallamt's barage of you-are-wrong yada yada yada, wish everyone have a nice azumin tsofaffi.
Quote from: "EMTL"
Mr. T, is Dafur closer to us than Yelwan Shendam? Uptill today the Torah militia are killing innocent Muslims.
EMTL
That is exactly the point of this forum, to discuss issues those we are aware of and those we are not we get informed about, so why don't you start a thread about what is happening in yelwa or shendam? I just do not understand what the tantrum is about, you have an issue or event that you want discussed why don't you start a thread on that if it bothers you so that other people can contribute? why are you questioning that some other person(s) start a thread on sudan? No one has answered me yet on why they are not starting threads on these other conflicts so that others contribute. Maybe you should tell us why you are not starting a thread on these other conflicts if they are important to you and if they are not then stop using them for mileage it is insensitive and rude!
Quote from: "myadudu"Hi guys.
Just thought I may say a thing or two related to this issue.
1) Nigeria has sent almost 150 troops to the Darfur region to help broker and sustain the shaky cease fire.
2) The rebels and the govt of Sudan have indicated their willingness to continue peace talks in Abuja.
And now onto mallamt....
I have noticed, and many others have also, that mallamt tends to be confrontational and sectional. He seems to blow up issues that deal with Islam and Muslims ( the darfur post) and then down play other issues (like the Zimbabwean farmers).
Like Waziri said, mallamt seems incapable of tolerating dissenting opinions. He resorts to name calling and blackmail, both of which are signs of desperation.
I guess this topic has been flogged enough so it'll be better if we find another issue to talk about. The Olympics for example ?
In getting ready for mallamt's barage of you-are-wrong yada yada yada, wish everyone have a nice azumin tsofaffi.
Myadudu
My dear friend you are not telling the truth if you say I docked on the zimbabwean farmers issue you should please revisit that thread and read it again carefully
If my telling it I see it you feel I am being confrontational and sectional so be it it is your problem, tell me it is a lie that people are not being killed in dafur and prove it, but I rather die telling it as I see it and being called sectional or confrontational that to keep silent so that I am not refered to as confrontational or sectional
Do you resort to name calling when you are desparate? I do not I only do that when people talk rubbish!
I blow up issue that deal with islam and muslims? hmm that is a new one!
How can you say the issue has been flogged? Don't try and decieve people please go through the thread and tell honestly how many posts really said anything about the issue. But those that have had enough and are not interesting in reading or writing anymore do not have to visit the thread those that want to discuss it further can go on.
Yes we must thank the people of nigeria and the govt for the role they are playing in bringing peace to the dafur region and we must pray for that peace to come
On the olympics what is stopping you from starting a thread on it or any other issue on your mind?
By the way I hope you realise that the dafur issue is not really a muslim thing if you are ready to be honest about the issue, because there is a large faction of muslim victims. Please do try and find out a bit more about that conflict and do not bury your head in the sand!
Quote from: "Barde"Quote from: "mallamt"Furthermore, death in especially in natural circumstance in a family is a very personal thing there is no way you can ever try to compare it with a massacer. It is very rude, an insult for you or anybody to want to compare a personal loss to the massacre of multitudes. How could you even compare the two events?
Mallamt,
I want you to sincerely confirm to me if the above quote is yours or not. If it is yours then am right to say you misinterpreted me.
Barde
You have come again with your maradona moves. You qouted me starting from the word "Furthermore". A free lesson for you, the use of such a word (furthermore) is indicitive that it is a continuation of a statement so why did you not start from the begining of the statement? Anyway lets look at it again
QuoteYes nobody questioned me or those of us that did not send condolences yet nobody was stopped from questioning me (us) right? Everyone in this forum has the right to question why didn't those that did not send messages of condolence send messages, it is not my place to make anybody ask his/her questions I ask mine, why should I or anybody for that matter be responsible for someone else not asking a question that bothers them? So you logic that because no one asked me why I did not send a condolence message so I should not ask why are people not commenting on the Dafur issue is rubbish and childish! Furthermore, death in especially in natural circumstance in a family is a very personal thing there is no way you can ever try to compare it with a massacer. It is very rude, an insult for you or anybody to want to compare a personal loss to the massacre of multitudes.
Please note the use of the term logic in my statement and tell me what part of your statement I am misinterpreting.
QuoteLet's assume that 15 days after the dafur post was your first visit after it was posted. It is funny enough for you to gave the excuse of not visiting the forum regularly as to why you did not comment on the issue, it baffles me that it did not cross your mind that there are people who are not regulars as well.It is also disgracing that you just concluded after your first visit that Kanoonliners are shying away from the dafur issue.
What is all this ranting about? Please read it and see if it makes any sense to you. Does it also baffle you why people did not just respond and say they have not been on the site rather than say they are being forced to comment or contribute on an issue?
QuoteLet me state categorically that if you are a FOOL, members of this forum are not. and i want you to please always read and understand before you comment on anything ok? otherwise you will only be making fool of yourself. I want you to go and ponder on the advice Waziri gave you, i strongly believe that it will help you in no small measure.
Hmm I wonder who is really not reading carefully and thus making a fool of himself!!
Hello!!
I have followed this thread from its inception with some curiousity and lately amusement. Lol what's going on here? Instead of discussing the issue we are trading insults and fighting amongst ourselves.
I mentioned this issue of the Sudan a long, long time ago on this forum, long b4 this darfur thing was on the news. Some people are talking as if this thing started yesterday; the sudan has been burning for twenty years! And to be blunt, I agree with myadudu and mallamt. Come, let's be honest with ourselves. Anyone who has spoken volumes on the numerous threads on the 'palestinian cause', iraq, afghanistan, satanic america etc., really should not be biting his/her tongue over darfur.
As such,Waziri I disagree with you. And I really don't think it is proper to go about 'chastising' others condescendingly as you have been doing of late on this thread. At first I found it amusing, but this is getting out of order. You know say you are a legend around here, but sometimes you can really rub people the wrong way. Abeg take am easy, you, mallamt and Barde.
There's much more I have to say of my observations on this thread, but really we cannot afford anymore distraction. Frankly I'm both happy and sad about the media coverage of the darfur crisis. Happy because because it has forced us to pay close attention to the Sudan, sad and a bit annoyed, because as I've said b4, ppl are talking as though it started yesterday. Like Dave I believe the responsiblilityfor the darfur crisis lies squarely on the insidious and illegitimate Sudanese government. I also think myadudu's suggestions as regards a solution are excellent. A U.S. invasion might seem like the honest, non-hypocrytical tihng for them to do, but really that would just lead to another Iraq-Afghan situation. The Sudan needs 'legitimate' and careful intervention, not gung-ho foolish bravado.
Nobody is doubting the fact that the Sudanese government is responsible for the atrocities in the dafur region but my arguement is that why is it been giving Islamic colouration? are the janjaweed acting according to the teachings of islam? Some people are trying to accused kanoonliners of shying away from the thread, when they did not comment also and all what some people had to offer as solution to the crises is for America to Invade and take over power from the "crazed Arab Muslims".
Our friend barde is saying that the dafur issue is being given an islamic colouration, where is that and who? The reason why the discussion digressed is just that barde and some others wanted to see a "third force" in what some of us said rather than discuss the issue. Dafur is a shame which should have never happened, I must confess that I did not know much about dafur until it hit the news. One can not understand the sudaness govt obviously a suggest such that sudan should be invaded by the us is somwhat "arrogant" and as lionger said could be more of a problem than a solution. However, I do believe there should be action from african states and if that means sending african troops against the wishes of the sudaness so be it. We must reach a point on this continent when we don't just say we are tired of the conflicts, the wars etc but we actually start fighting them even if it is with our armies. Left to the rest of the world they would just fold their arms and debate at the UN on resolutions while we kill each other, then they come in as "angels of mercy" after a couple of hundreds of thousands have been killed. It is probably appropraite to identify some of the leadership in sudan and declare them charge them for these atrocities if they are linked to it.
Quote from: "mallamt"Quote from: "Barde"Quote from: "mallamt"Furthermore, death in especially in natural circumstance in a family is a very personal thing there is no way you can ever try to compare it with a massacer. It is very rude, an insult for you or anybody to want to compare a personal loss to the massacre of multitudes. How could you even compare the two events?
Mallamt,
I want you to sincerely confirm to me if the above quote is yours or not. If it is yours then am right to say you misinterpreted me.
Barde
You have come again with your maradona moves. You qouted me starting from the word "Furthermore". A free lesson for you, the use of such a word (furthermore) is indicitive that it is a continuation of a statement so why did you not start from the begining of the statement? Anyway lets look at it again QuoteYes nobody questioned me or those of us that did not send condolences yet nobody was stopped from questioning me (us) right? Everyone in this forum has the right to question why didn't those that did not send messages of condolence send messages, it is not my place to make anybody ask his/her questions I ask mine, why should I or anybody for that matter be responsible for someone else not asking a question that bothers them? So you logic that because no one asked me why I did not send a condolence message so I should not ask why are people not commenting on the Dafur issue is rubbish and childish! Furthermore, death in especially in natural circumstance in a family is a very personal thing there is no way you can ever try to compare it with a massacer. It is very rude, an insult for you or anybody to want to compare a personal loss to the massacre of multitudes.
Please note the use of the term logic in my statement and tell me what part of your statement I am misinterpreting.QuoteLet's assume that 15 days after the dafur post was your first visit after it was posted. It is funny enough for you to gave the excuse of not visiting the forum regularly as to why you did not comment on the issue, it baffles me that it did not cross your mind that there are people who are not regulars as well.It is also disgracing that you just concluded after your first visit that Kanoonliners are shying away from the dafur issue.
What is all this ranting about? Please read it and see if it makes any sense to you. Does it also baffle you why people did not just respond and say they have not been on the site rather than say they are being forced to comment or contribute on an issue?QuoteLet me state categorically that if you are a FOOL, members of this forum are not. and i want you to please always read and understand before you comment on anything ok? otherwise you will only be making fool of yourself. I want you to go and ponder on the advice Waziri gave you, i strongly believe that it will help you in no small measure.
Hmm I wonder who is really not reading carefully and thus making a fool of himself!!
Mallamt,
Let me summarise every thing this way. How come you didn't give us the benefit of doubt knowing fully well that some kanoonliners may not be regulars as well?(like you). You just concluded that people are been silent on the issue, is that a fair judgement?
Barde
are you delibrately trying to make this thread cumbersome? I just do not understand why you qoute all that you did yet what you had to say had nothing to do with what you have qouted. What in your own opinion would have constituted a benifit of doubt? You said I just concluded that people were silent was it not true or did I miss something? You earlier on said that the posting had been on for almoat 2 weeks before I even made the comment right? (and at that point my comment was just the second or third) does that not mean that my conclusion was right at that point in time? Please note that my comment was on the silence and not the reason for the silence they are two different things, that was why my comment was followed with a statement of caution to the fact that people may misinterprete the silence
I am glad we are getting a serious debate about this issue now. The killing is continuing, however, no matter what lies the Sudanese representatives told at Abuja.
I take serious offence at my words being twisted. I mentioned "crazed Arab killers" in an earlier post, not "crazed Arab muslims" as has been quoted by some of our contributors. No arguement is ever won by misquoting.
QuoteAs such,Waziri I disagree with you. And I really don't think it is proper to go about 'chastising' others condescendingly as you have been doing of late on this thread. At first I found it amusing, but this is getting out of order. You know say you are a legend around here, but sometimes you can really rub people the wrong way. Abeg take am easy, you, mallamt and Barde.
lionger how improper is my reprimand? What is the logic behind this imput? You only succeeded in telling me am condescending and overbearing here. Do you then believe Mallamt has done the right thing by calling me names by your silence on his categorisation of me to be a liar?
Is my chastising others - which you found more appropriate to speak about- more grievous than his calling me names? After all what is wrong in my saying people should not be compelled to respond to some posts specifically?
AND FOR mallamt, LET HIM KNOW I AM SERIOUS. I AM GOING TO COURT IF HE CANNOT SHOW TO ME WHERE I TOLD A LIE. I INTEND TO COMMIT ALL I HAVE FROM A DOLLAR TO A MILLION OF IT, INTO THIS CASE. FOR I AM NOT HERE BECAUSE I HAVE NOTHING DOING ANYWHERE. I AM NOT HERE TO BE INSULTED OR DEFAMED BY ANYBODY. AS SUCH I HAVE A SERIOUS LESSON WHICH I BELIEVE HE WILL LEARN FROM THIS.
LET Mallamt KNOW THAT HE CANNOT HIDE. WHEREVER HE IS THE INTERNET SECURITY PEOPLE WILL GET AT HIM. THEN HE WILL TELL THE JURY WHERE HE SAW ME TELLING A LIE. IT IS ONLY A MATTER OF TIME BEFORE I LAY MY HANDS ON HIM. WE WILL TRACE ALL HIS POSTS AROUND HERE AND COMPILED THE IP ADRESSES. IF HE IS OPERATING FROM INTERNET CAFES, WE WILL KNOW. WE WILL GET HIM WHILE ON KANOONLINE WEBSITE AND FROM ANYWHERE ACROSS THIS PLANET. HE CANNOT RUN. LET HIM START A CUNSULTATION WITH HIS ATTORNEY. I AM COMING HIS WAY WITH FULL FORCE. THE DRAMA IS HERE, THE DRAMATISTS ARE READY. LET THE SCENES EVOLVE.
Bawai mutanen banzane akatara ananba da zaizo yana zaginmu haka kawai
Dave,
It was a mixed-up, am actually discussing the same issue with a freind and his solution to the crises is almost the same with your own.
What do you mean by the following statement.."Has the fact that the evil killers in Sudan are (killing both Moslems and christians) are Moslems confused and embarassed many members?"
Quote from: "mallamt"Barde
are you delibrately trying to make this thread cumbersome? I just do not understand why you qoute all that you did yet what you had to say had nothing to do with what you have qouted. What in your own opinion would have constituted a benifit of doubt? You said I just concluded that people were silent was it not true or did I miss something? You earlier on said that the posting had been on for almoat 2 weeks before I even made the comment right? (and at that point my comment was just the second or third) does that not mean that my conclusion was right at that point in time? Please note that my comment was on the silence and not the reason for the silence they are two different things, that was why my comment was followed with a statement of caution to the fact that people may misinterprete the silence
Mallamt
Let me put it in another way, You hurriedly concluded that kanoonliners are shying away from the thread when you did not say anything, you would have allowed Dave or myadudu to make such accusations. You are guilty of the same offence. I hope yanzu kam kagane menake nufi.
Barde
Thanks.
What I meant by the piece you refer to is that it is very easy for Onliners to attack the Jews for wicked acts against moslems in Palestine, for Onliners to attack America (and UK) for the evil they do in moslem Iraq but the fact that the murderers and perpetrators of genocide against the black people of Sudan are moslem should not mean that Onliners should turn their eyes away from their wickedness. I suspect some find this issue difficult to deal with and are tempted to try to ignore it.
My brother said something 2yrs ago.... and day in and day out it continues its proved that he was right. We muslims have gone so far from our religion and accepted the cultures other than what Allah(S.W.T) has told us in the Qur'an, that we have become devided, only the Kalima identifies (not unite) us , the west has continued to Dominate us for the last 350yrs and they continue to have the stone-age(their stone-age) belief that we are a barbaric people. Our hands are firmly tied behind our backs by our useless leaders and the west continues to slap us any moment they wish.
Quote from: "Barde"Nobody is doubting the fact that the Sudanese government is responsible for the atrocities in the dafur region but my arguement is that why is it been giving Islamic colouration? are the janjaweed acting according to the teachings of islam? Some people are trying to accused kanoonliners of shying away from the thread, when they did not comment also and all what some people had to offer as solution to the crises is for America to Invade and take over power from the "crazed Arab Muslims".
I ask the same question as mallamt, who exactly gave this issue Islamic colouration? :) I find this quote of yours especially amusing
Quoteare the janjaweed acting according to the teachings of islam?
not because I diagree (quite the contrary) but this was the sort of thing I said ad nauseum to to many of us who can't see the difference between Christianity and Western culture. Now I see them using similar arguments here - even al hamza!! Hahaha, wonders shall never end!
Quote from: "Dave_McEwan_Hill"...I take serious offence at my words being twisted. I mentioned "crazed Arab killers" in an earlier post, not "crazed Arab muslims" as has been quoted by some of our contributors. No arguement is ever won by misquoting.
I can bet my las cent it was Barde, it is one of his specialities!!
Quote from: "Barde"Dave,
It was a mixed-up, am actually discussing the same issue with a freind and his solution to the crises is almost the same with your own.
What do you mean by the following statement.."Has the fact that the evil killers in Sudan are (killing both Moslems and christians) are Moslems confused and embarassed many members?"
Barde
You are lying!! You know if we ask you who this friend is you would just say it is some one you met on the street blah blah blah. How can we prove it? You are not an honest man who seeks and tells the truth.
What still puzzels me is why are these people not handled like criminals? The sudaness army is now assimilating these people and making it difficult for peace keepers apprehend them, they are even said to be in camps lying low. Let us not forget ruwanda, for those people in the camps are probably in more danger now than they were
Quote from: "_Waziri_"Quote
AND FOR mallamt, LET HIM KNOW I AM SERIOUS. I AM GOING TO COURT IF HE CANNOT SHOW TO ME WHERE I TOLD A LIE. I INTEND TO COMMIT ALL I HAVE FROM A DOLLAR TO A MILLION OF IT, INTO THIS CASE. FOR I AM NOT HERE BECAUSE I HAVE NOTHING DOING ANYWHERE. I AM NOT HERE TO BE INSULTED OR DEFAMED BY ANYBODY. AS SUCH I HAVE A SERIOUS LESSON WHICH I BELIEVE HE WILL LEARN FROM THIS.
LET Mallamt KNOW THAT HE CANNOT HIDE. WHEREVER HE IS THE INTERNET SECURITY PEOPLE WILL GET AT HIM. THEN HE WILL TELL THE JURY WHERE HE SAW ME TELLING A LIE. IT IS ONLY A MATTER OF TIME BEFORE I LAY MY HANDS ON HIM. WE WILL TRACE ALL HIS POSTS AROUND HERE AND COMPILED THE IP ADRESSES. IF HE IS OPERATING FROM INTERNET CAFES, WE WILL KNOW. WE WILL GET HIM WHILE ON KANOONLINE WEBSITE AND FROM ANYWHERE ACROSS THIS PLANET. HE CANNOT RUN. LET HIM START A CUNSULTATION WITH HIS ATTORNEY. I AM COMING HIS WAY WITH FULL FORCE. THE DRAMA IS HERE, THE DRAMATISTS ARE READY. LET THE SCENES EVOLVE.
Bawai mutanen banzane akatara ananba da zaizo yana zaginmu haka kawai
_Waziri_
If I have insulted any one it is you so please don't try and rally a group action face me if you want man on man. Let me tell you as I have said earlier on I don't care!! came with what you can muscle!! Whether you want to sue me or pass fattwa on me na you know! You didn't put me on the face of this earth and you won't take me off it only if God permits!
Quote from: "mallamt"Waziri
If I have insulted any one it is you so please don't try and rally a group action face me if you want man on man. Let me tell you as I have said earlier on I don't care!! came with what you can muscle!! Whether you want to sue me or pass fattwa on me na you know! You didn't put me on the face of this earth and you won't take me off it only if God permits!
I think Mallamt is seriously wrong. Why must he start calling Waziri names? Is it a case of sheer hatred or envy? But the way i see it is that people should try as a matter of decency and decorum to stop using market language while addressing or commenting on issues. We may not understand the imlpications until one is engulped by it. For instance, it is a great civic lacuna to even point an accusing finger on one not to talk of using flabbergasting statements i.e a liar, bloody fellow etc. It is the same abuse of language that caused Uncle Sam almost a year without airing his view in Dailytrust Newspaper,simply because he called Mr. OBJ a liar. In fact , the paper had to lose millions of naira due to that unwholesome statement. Again, Chief Bola Ige had attempted to sue newspapermen for libel for using abusive lang. on his personality. What iam trying to say is that even to point a finger at one, if he/she is not satisfied by it; it is tantamounting to intimidation and threat on ones right. And is what the law makers regard as 'Battery', which one can claim alot of damages. So Iam pleading to the honorable members of this lovely forum to refrain from using harsh words on others. Mallamt must apologise.
This is exactly the trouble that el- Rufa'i is currently battling with.
For Waziri i think that u shud pls take heart and rest ur case'cos taking it further will definitely make things very difficult for mallamt. For mallamt, I also advice that we shud be very careful while dealing with personalities, especially on general board where serious and topical issues are discussed. One can say anything if its a chit chat or unserious fora.
I remain loyal.
Mafia manager.
I have to come back here after serious thought about this matter. I believe we have to be very cautious, people that may seem nothing to us can really be very dangerous.
Hello Forumnites,
I am new here but I found the substance of this disscussion worth commenting on.
I believe Mallamt himself is convinced of his wrongs. Then I as an existentialist believe that an individual must bear the full brunt of his actions. So objectively Mallamt must carry his own cross and as a man he must never weep over the results of his own doings or undoings.
In public matter of this nature sentimentality in the guise of apology is unwelcomed.
Tukur Dan-Mua'zu
Assalamu Alaikum,
I am not very regular in this forum, in the sense that I do not contiribute to the debate here. But I read everything readable on this site.
My appeal here is to the webmaster to look at this thread carefully again and again. This mallamt has not only insulted Waziri and refused to apologise but he also used the same kind of market language against Barde where he said
"Barde
You are lying!! You know if we ask you who this friend is you would just say it is some one you met on the street blah blah blah. How can we prove it? You are not an honest man who seeks and tells the truth."
This animalistic character is not suppose to be allowed here. It seriously affect the pleasure driven from reading the content of this website.
oh my my, when two people or noticed an anomoly, i believed it is worthy of consideration. mr. admin should take note, though mallamt should be forgiven, but he should mind his tongue and apologise to those he offended! :(
It is obvious that there is an attempt to gang up and make comments and accussation on a matter people have not followed. I think I should the clear the air about I why I commented that Waziri is a liar
In _waziri's_ post of 27/8/04 _waziri_ said
QuoteNow mallamt did anybody question the motive behind why you did not condole and appear sympathetic to us when we lost our father Alhaji Salisu Usman Danyaro? From what kind of planet are you that you do not think it an obligation to identify with others when they are mourning the lost of their loved ones?
In my respond on the 28/8/04 and I asked in my post
QuoteWho are the "us" you are talking about? As far as I know with respect to my sending/not sending condolence messages you are the only one to comment are you representing anyone or a group of people when you commented?
_Waziri_ in his response on the 30/8/04 he said
QuoteAgain I will recommend that mallamt should go for a little more training in linguistics for him to undertand why a single person can use a WE for an I. Every learned person in this regard will tell you that there are two kinds of plural: Of respect and of number.
In response to _Waziri_ on 30/8/04 I posted th definition of WE as provided in Websters english dictionary
QuoteI also note that based on what you are saying the WE used by you is Of respect (to use your term) and WE in your english means I. Very interesting, here is the definition and usage of we, kindly note that we is recognised in the english langauge as the plural of ME. WE 1 the persons speaking or writing: used to refer to the speaker or writer and another or others, sometimes including those addressed: personal pronoun in the first person plural: we is the nominative form, us the objective, ours the possessive, and ourselves (or, by a king, etc., ourself ) the reflexive and intensive; our is the possessive pronominal adjective
2 I: used by a monarch, editor, judge, etc. to indicate that the authority of his or her position or profession is represented
3 you: used in direct address as in encouraging or admonishing an invalid, a child, etc.
Now my case is this _waziri_ from his post it can be gleaned that he was not speaking for anyone but him self yet he tried to put a case as if he was speaking on behalf of a group (and it may be true there are people who shared his veiw on the forum so he could have said he was speaking on belhalf of those who shared similar veiws to his). He then goes on to say that WE can be used to mean I etc. so we conclude he is trying to say his usage of we was really an I. From the definition of WE it can be seen that it is impossible to use WE when you mean I. US on the other hand can be used in the objective form by an individual where there is a specific matter being dealt with by a number of people. But the thing is that the thread was not dealing with my sending or not sending condolence messages, secondly _waziri_ was the first to introduce the idea or thought of my not sending condolences, so except it was dicussed else where and he is only extending the discussion to this thread it is wrong for him to use US. Therefore we can say for sure that when _waziri_ used the term "us" wrong and he was not telling the truth since the issue of my not sending condolences as far as we know only started with him furthermore from the meaning of WE, it is not true that WE can be used as and I (especially in the context of the discussion).
So please I will advice that postings are read carefully before visitors and others start trading accusations.
Mallamt you are really a character. It is you that should read postings before making comments. In this thread alone, you have misrepresented the meaning of somany things and posts made by others and now you want to also try another flawed logic.
In every dictionary of language usage NOT of vocabulary, it is said WE can be used in place of I, as plural of respect. God uses WE in holy books like Bible and etc but that does not make Him many. Kings also use WE in place of I and even ordinary people nowadays use it. Anyway you can tell that to the judge and see whether he will take you serious. But I warn you that ignorance of sort cannot save you from jail or fine.
I am sorry if I make you uncomfortable. Even if one is wrong in using such terms you cannot call that person a lier. You should be a good person for yourself.
People,
How on earth did a discussion on the Darfur crisis turn into an argument over the meaning of the word 'we' :shock: ?? Please, lets put a stop to this pointless endeavor! Mallamt, though I understand your feelings, you have certainly been too abrasive and I beseech you to apologize to Waziri. The rest of us should step back and not add any morefuel to the fire. Please lets get back on topic; surely the lives on innocents are more important than our twisted understanding of a noun. This is getting silly!!
Yes I agree with you lionger. Let us get back to the subject matter. And for Yoruba Land please stop displaying your ignorance, in the Bible when We is used by God it is know that it includes the members of the God head (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy spirit). In some other instances, We also includes the angels. Please see the definition and usage of we when used by kings, before you say anything.
Quote from: "mallamt"Yes I agree with you lionger. Let us get back to the subject matter. And for Yoruba Land please stop displaying your ignorance, in the Bible when We is used by God it is know that it includes the members of the God head (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy spirit). In some other instances, We also includes the angels. Please see the definition and usage of we when used by kings, before you say anything.
ALL THE SAME , PLEASE MALLAMT WE ARE NOT TAKING ANY SIDE, ALL WE ARE APPEALING IS THE USE OF SIMPLE/SOFT WORDINGS, NOT OFFENSIVE ONES. THE WORD 'LIAR' IS TOO HARSH EVEN TO A SMALL BOY, NOT TO TALK OF MATURED AND REASONABLE PERSON!
I STILL URGE YOU TO APOLOGISE TO WAZIRI, FOR THE SAKE OF MATURITY AND INTELLECTUALITY!
ok, I hear you guys and in the interest of peaceful coexistence respect to each other I humbly render my unreserved appology to _waziri_ and close this matter and for anyone else hurt by my utterance of the term or word lair to _waziri_, please do accept my appology.
Quote from: "mallamt"ok, I hear you guys and in the interest of peaceful coexistence respect to each other I humbly render my unreserved appology to _waziri_ and close this matter and for anyone else hurt by my utterance of the term or word lair to _waziri_, please do accept my appology.
VERY GOOD O YOU MALLAMT, THANK YOU FOR THAT MATURED APPROACH AND GOD BLESS![/color] :)
Assalamum alaikum,
Darfur and Crusaders
Dr. Khaled M. Batarfi, kbatarfi@al-madina.com.sa
An American friend asked me what I meant when I claimed in a previous
article (Double Talk, Double Standards) that Evangelists collect
billions to support Christian revolts in the Muslim world. I gave him three
examples: East Timor, South Sudan and Darfur. He seemed to recognize the
first two but not the last. I had to explain:
In many wild parts of the globe there have been continuous struggles
among various groups for racial, economic and religious reasons. Darfur
is a huge countryside, the size of France. It has all kinds of tough
terrains: Jungles, deserts and mountains.
Most of its inhabitants, if not all, are Muslims. They come from Arab
and African origins. The Arabs are mostly nomads and Africans farmers.
In dry seasons, nomads move to farming areas to feed their camels and
sheep. They fight over rights. This is an ancient, global phenomenon.
It was worse when central governments were weaker, like before the
present government took over. In recent years the nomads got stronger
because they joined the state in fighting the southern revolt. After the
peace accords, they returned home veterans and well-armed. In their
absence, some Africans revolted with foreign help. Support comes from the
same sources that sustained the southerners — Evangelical organizations,
neighboring countries and Israel.
The goal is to cut off the Arab Muslim Sudan from the rest of Africa.
The state called on the Arab nomads again, this time against their old
rivals. Another war ensued. Like in the southern war, the Western world
took notice only when the government forces seemed to be winning.
No one is denying that the situation is bad. Five thousand people were
killed or died from both sides, more from the insurgents. Both rivals
committed atrocities. The government should stop supporting the nomads,
and the foreign powers must cut off arms to the separatists.
Terrible as is, the situation has not reached the level of genocide,
and the government cannot alone improve the situation. More than 2,500
Iraqis were killed in a month, half the number of people killed in Darfur
in 18 months. Close to a million (and counting) of Hutus and Tutsis
were killed lately in similar conflicts in Rwanda and Burundi.
The situation is worsening there, as well as in Iraq, Afghanistan, the
occupied Palestinian territories, Chechnya, Kashmir, Muslim parts of
China and Philippines.
No one is calling this genocide or charging the US and the concerned
governments of responsibility. Why only Sudan is the focus of all
attention and actions? Is it because in most other cases Muslims are the
victims? Or is it because all the right ingredients are present here: Oil,
Islam, Arab, Israel and the Bush-Blair crusade?! You tell me, my
American friend!
EMTL's diagnosis of the conflict in Darfur is complete nonsense and dangerous nonsense for any person who may be persuaded to believe it.
It is the spreading of this sort of nonsense that causes racial and religious hate.
Quote from: "Dave_McEwan_Hill"EMTL's diagnosis of the conflict in Darfur is complete nonsense and dangerous nonsense for any person who may be persuaded to believe it.
It is the spreading of this sort of nonsense that causes racial and religious hate.
Why the insults? People like Dave have a disease in their hearts and thus do not understand the truth whenever it is explained.
Quote from: "Dave_McEwan_Hill"EMTL's diagnosis of the conflict in Darfur is complete nonsense and dangerous nonsense for any person who may be persuaded to believe it.
It is the spreading of this sort of nonsense that causes racial and religious hate.
Isn't that a little harsh? Just because you may not agree with everything EMTL wrote,that is no reason to call it nonsense. And what's this about it being dangerous, people have the right and choice to read and hold views about any information they come accross. After all you read it and thought it was utter nonsense didn't you, so why not give other's the benefit of the doubt?
Any analysis of the Sudan crisis that does not put the majority of the blame where it obviously belongs: at the foot of a govt. that has obviously been peddling discriminatory policies since the beginnig of its existence; but instead chooses to blame the Bush-Blair crusade, Israel and Evangelical groups (lol @the last one :lol: ) , and play a deceitful numbers comparison game in a place where over 2 million have died and over 4 million displaced in two decades; is at best a joke in my humblest of opinions. Unfortunately I can't say that Dave's comments are off the mark, though uncharacteristically harsh. EMTL, there is little truth in what that Doctor had to say, he is simply peddling deceit. Anyone who has bothered to actually study Sudan's history will find his analysis to be clutching straws. Honestly, is this not the first time we are hearing of the Sudan in international news, as compared to Chechnya, the Philippines, Kashmir and of course Palestine, Iraq and afghanistan? Who exactly is 'the focuz of all attentions and actions?' Please let's call a spade a spade where ever and whenever we see it!
Part of the problem with some people is that they are the exact copies of Bush yet they try to accuse Bush, Blair, America etc for everything that has gone wrong. These people have shown complete incapability to focus on an issue and thus go about grabing at things randomly. That is the exact tactics that Bush used for his war in Iraq, first we were told that it was Al Qaida and Osama, then it was WMD, then it was a preemtive strike, then it was operation free Iraq, then democratising middle east starting from Iraq etc, yet at no time were we made to focus on the issue, then which was 911. It was for that reason the war was seen as unjustified because the the world was being taken on a merry go round without us being allowed to focus on the issue which did not require a war. The same thing happens here were are taken on a tangent on issues so that we loose focus and the main issue ends up never attended to or discussed
If my previous post on this issue offended any one i apologise but i will not retract anything I said about EMTL's post.
Murder is always murder. Nothing that has happened before or happened somewhere else can excuse murder
The Sudan government is murdering women and children. It is not possible to justify this in any way by quoting things that have happened before.
There is genocide against the black people of Sudan going on as I write and an estimated 400 women dying every day in Darfur. This makes me very angry and very unhappy. I don't want to hear anyone making any excuses for this .
Dave,
Why did you accused only Muslims "for turning their eyes away" from your thread? considering the fact that Christian kanoonliners too did not comment on the thread.
Lionger/ Mallamt,
Dave directed his question only to muslim kanoonliners depite the fact that you guys as (christians) did not say anything on his thread. That was my reason for saying the thread is been given Islamic colouration.
Barde
I believe that the government of Sudan is behaving in exactly the same way to the people of Darfur as the Israelis are behaving to the Palestinians. In fact with over 50,000 now dead it is worse than the killing in Palestine. I myself do not care what religion any person is. But I think that the judgement on the Sudan Government should be the same as the judgement on the Israelis. Some people in this forum have made some sort of excuses for the Sudan government or given reasons blaming others for some of its evil actions. Some who have been very loud in their correct condemnation of Israel are quiet on Sudan. I suspect this is because the behaviour of the Sudan Government is a disgrace to Islam. I understand why many Onliners may feel this disgrace very deeply. I do not mean to offend anyone by making this point. It is worth remembering the famous quote
"For evil to succeed it is only required that good men say nothing"
hahahaha,
Dave who do you think is ashamed here of whats happeining in sudann?
some months ago you were shouting on the top of your voice that americans are against bush... he should have lost badly but recent news shows that its a tight election. Hmm dave, please you have wasted your life and gained no "sense" just keep quite and sit down.
if my enemy slaps my brother a hundred times, and my brother slaps his enemy's brother once.... i wont find it difficult to turn a blind eye.
I can make no sense of Al Hamza's post which has nothing to say about the fact that helpless women and children are still being murdered on a daily basis in Sudan by forces organised by the Sudan government.
Bush seems to have won the American election which shows the huge depth of political stupidity of the average American but this has nothing to do with Sudan.
Quote from: "Dave_McEwan_Hill"I can make no sense of Al Hamza's post which has nothing to say about the fact that helpless women and children are still being murdered on a daily basis in Sudan by forces organised by the Sudan government.
Bush seems to have won the American election which shows the huge depth of political stupidity of the average American but this has nothing to do with Sudan.
More innocent children and women are being bombed and killed by the Americans daily in Iraq than what is happening in Sudan.
AMERICA IS EVIL SO ALSO THE AMERICANS. DEATH TO AMREICANS AND OTHER SUNDRY ENEMIES OF PEACE (ISLAM).
EMTL's response makes even less sense than Al Hamza's.
Because Americans are killing Iraqis it is all right for militants to kill women and children in Sudan? This is nonsense. What has the actions of America in Iraq got to do with innocent villagers in Darfur?
This is the morality of the madhouse.
I suggest also that AlHamza and EMTL read all my posts on the evil actions of America in Iraq, Afghanistan and many other places.
EMTL and Al Hamza, why are you two wailing about America on a thread about the Sudan crisis? Is it because there aren't enough threads about 'evil America' on this forum? Your stubborn determination in diverting the focus from Sudan to America betrays your hypocritical standpoint. You are no better than your 'enemies' if you choose to blind your eyes to evil. Al hamza I believe I told you this already. Btw how bodi? Long time no see :)
EMTL, please do not be so easily deceived like the rest of those 'evil americans' you so abhor. Over two million people have died in the Sudan and over 4 million displaced in two decades of fighting, not counting the Darfur casualties. Is that at all compared to the Iraqi situation? Please, lets be true to ourselves.
Assalamu alaikum,
Each time we make a contribution, expressing personal views Mr. Lionger and Dave will response with insults. I find this uncivilised attitude un-acceptable.
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.
There is no insult in my post about EMTL's previous post. Perhaps he is trying to confuse because he can't answer the questions I posed. If someone on this forum makes stupid or immoral statements he should expect others to point out the stupidity. That is what a good forum is for.
The questions are :
What has the evil and stupid behaviour of America in Iraq got to do with the poor black villagers of West and South Sudan?
Why does EMTL think it is OK to see them being killed because America is killing Iraqis?
That is what his post says
EMTL what insults are you talking of? And what is uncivilized about responding to the subject, rather than resorting to diversionary tactics? Is this your model of civilized speech below?
QuoteAMERICA IS EVIL SO ALSO THE AMERICANS. DEATH TO AMREICANS AND OTHER SUNDRY ENEMIES OF PEACE (ISLAM).
EMTL, I asked you a simple question, yet again you refuse to answer. Why are you talking about America on this thread? Is it insulting for me to say that your expressed opinions are irrelevant to the subject? Or are you trying to tell us that Iraqi lives are much more important than Sudanese lives? If you scream and shout when a 'christian government' commits atrocities against Muslims, but seem not to know what to say when a 'muslim government' does the same thing, is that not hypocritism?
I wrote this on the 28/9/04 in this same thread
QuotePart of the problem with some people is that they are the exact copies of Bush yet they try to accuse Bush, Blair, America etc for everything that has gone wrong. These people have shown complete incapability to focus on an issue and thus go about grabing at things randomly. That is the exact tactics that Bush used for his war in Iraq, first we were told that it was Al Qaida and Osama, then it was WMD, then it was a preemtive strike, then it was operation free Iraq, then democratising middle east starting from Iraq etc, yet at no time were we made to focus on the issue, then which was 911. It was for that reason the war was seen as unjustified because the the world was being taken on a merry go round without us being allowed to focus on the issue which did not require a war. The same thing happens here were are taken on a tangent on issues so that we loose focus and the main issue ends up never attended to or discussed
This is exactly the problem a delibrate attempt to change focus of an issue.
EMTL, we can never be friends, The Qur'an says so... We cant deny that their hearts are sealed.
Its better we sit back, relax and enjoy seeing the people that have been categorised as our enemies, lets see the level of thier mentality. My brother just allow them to bark.
You are right, mallamt. Anyways to get this discussion back to the subect I hereby post this link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Sudan
It gives a rough overview of Sudan's history. It's not perfect, but it certainly highlights the sources of Sudan's misery. And I think it might help serve as a good knowledge basis for further educated discussion on the subject.
Here is another on the Darfur conflict
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darfur_conflict
Still no answers?
Salaam all,
Let me intervene here to make some assertions based upon what I understand to be the truest position on this matter. First, for Al-Hamza, I do not think Mr. David has to in anyway justify the recent success of Bush at the polls. We take position on some valid postulations we see, but that does not mean our predictions must come to pass by all means. Also when we consider the that fact that an average American in not more informed than an average African on issues relating to the policies of his country. A good rexample of this is in EMTL's post about American soldiers who are in Iraq without even a skewed knowledge of what took them their. The success of Bush really doesnt make the assertions by Mr. David invalid it only confirms them.
And again I do not like the positions taken by Al-Hamza in calling Christians our enemies without valid reasons to that. This has never been the ways of the Prophet of Islam whom we copy. In fact Qur'an mentioned to us that Christians are the most close to loving Muslims among other religious groups. We can also remember how the Prophet himself used to borrow money from some of his Christian neighbours in Medina and how he kept a Jew as his ward. All these point to the sweet working relationship he had with the Jews and Christians he lived with in Medina. So please we can understand that Mr. David or lionger can be right just as we too can be wrong.
I refused responding to this topic earlier since I didn't feel I had enough information about Dafur and what was happening there. I believe and have told many here on several occasions that it is desired that we respond to to those things we have enough information about only. Plus the fact that I do not deem it appropriate for anybody to compel the forumnites to respond to some particular post. Though the most reason is, I suspect much what I hear from these Western media since the inception of this war on terror which is invariably war on Islam. As such I entertain caution on Darfur where Muslims are said to be killing Muslims on account of race not religion. This, to note, is not the same war that engulped Sudan over the years as Lionger would have us to believe with figures in millions. No, rather a new thing that demanded these Arabs to kill their Muslim brothers with a casualty that Mr. David appropriately quoted to be around 50,000.
While I do not think EMTL and Al-Hamza are contesting the fact that this is not good. I understand their concern about the fact that the situatuation in Dafur is overblown, that is to say, given special attention just for the simple reason that Muslim Arabs are the ones commiting the crimes. It is a way of tainting the image of the religion of Islam as is the new task of the media houses of the West today. My argument find substance in the truth that more than 58,000 thousand people were consumed in Plateau crisis here in Nigeria, which of course is more than the figures provided by Mr. David but yet that one did not call the attention of media houses as the case in Dafur is calling. Amin had earlier, in this thread indicated a possiblity of American interest at play somewhere at the Sudan region in the hope of taking control of some oil reserve.
Whatever the case maybe, the situation is grave and it needs our kneetest attention. I have alot of cousins studying in Sudan. While many of them agreed that Janjaweed is a menace, they also share my thought that everything is deliberately being overblown.
Thank you Waziri. It is a pleasure to read a reasonable response on this topic. The crux of this matter may be the racist elements of it rather than the religious element. I suspect the situation is much worse than we know however as the Sudan Government is going to a lot of trouble to prevent accurate information and figures from getting out.
Waziri,
Good writeup. However I must make clear one thing: firstly, that I never made out the war with south sudan to be part of the Darfur conflict (though i certainly think they are related in some way); I think all my posts on the subject certainly make a demarcation. If indeed the Darfur conflict is being overblown (and that is possible) then in a sense it is good, for its about time the world sat up to the reality of what I believe is an insidious and grossly irresponsible Sudanese government. That is why I say the Darfur conflict is somewhat tied with the rest of the south sudanese conflict. It was south sudan b4, today it is Darfur and tomorrow it will be someone else unless we step up.
But Mr. David looking at how the issue dominated discourses in media houses we will realise that the Sudan government cannot in anyway be able to prevent information from flowing out, afterall they do not control the news agencies carrying the information; the news agencies that are known for fabricating evidences to serve a particular interest.
Also for lionger, if the Dafur conflict is overblown with the intention of saving the innocent lives there we can easily conclude it to be good but when we have reasons to suspect that the conflict is overblown only to inflict further injury to the "Islamic" (as is being called) government of Sudan, then we conclude it is not fair.
Also the wars the Sudanese government waged over the years in southern part of the country find justification only in their claim of unifying the country, just as we claimed to have been unifying the Nigerian nation when we waged war or commited genocide against the Igbo people of the South - Eastern part of our country years back. But this one in Dafur is a case of some tribal groups seizing opportunities to kill the black population around them without a very direct involvement of Sudaness government. I really do not think Sudan government is irresponsible, for governance doesn't mean just getting things just the way government officials want them. This is the reason why I give Obasanjo benefit of doubt on some aspects of the failures of his government in Nigeria. Not everybody is a master of his circumstance.
Quote
Also for lionger, if the Dafur conflict is overblown with the intention of saving the innocent lives there we can easily conclude it to be good but when we have reasons to suspect that the conflict is overblown only to inflict further injury to the "Islamic" (as is being called) government of Sudan, then we conclude it is not fair.
I don't think there is much basis for for concerns that the conflict is being overblown only to slight Sudan's Arabic/Islamic image. In all its existence the Sudanese govt. has hardly ever been something that the Sudanese, Muslims, Arabs or you and I should ever have been proud of, in my humble opinion; a point I will subsequently try prove in response to the rest of your post.
Quote
Also the wars the Sudanese government waged over the years in southern part of the country find justification only in their claim of unifying the country, just as we claimed to have been unifying the Nigerian nation when we waged war or commited genocide against the Igbo people of the South - Eastern part of our country years back.
Good point, but in both cases such a claim was clearly unfounded. If the Sudan govt. was ever seriously interested in unification, then why did General Nimeiry issue a decree declaring the Sudan a Muslim Arab state in 1983, and institute Sharia law nationwide? That action was the chief catalyst for the resumption of the civil war, and it was never competely erased by subsequent governments. Yet the sort of folly some would want to see repeated in Nigeria.
Quote
But this one in Dafur is a case of some tribal groups seizing opportunities to kill the black population around them without a very direct involvement of Sudaness government. I really do not think Sudan government is irresponsible, for governance doesn't mean just getting things just the way government officials want them. This is the reason why I give Obasanjo benefit of doubt on some aspects of the failures of his government in Nigeria. Not everybody is a master of his circumstance.
Emphasis added.
I humbly beg to differ. Since this Darfur conflict's inception in February last year, the government of Sudan has used the janjaweed militias as its main ground force in Darfur against the SLA and the JEM rebel forces, as well as harassment and near-ethnic cleansing of the ethnicities from which these rebels came from,, such as the Fur, Massalit and Zaghawa peoples. The militia has been a very key part of the government's actions in Darur and sometimes have fought alongside government troops. The violence there has not ceased despite the ceasefire agreement signed by both sides in April this year; the janjaweed continues its raids on civilians and even chases them all the way to the Chadian border. Funny that the government has always denied any connection with or control over the janjaweed militia; yet it stubbornly refused any international intervention until recently. They cannot by any means be absolved of responsibility for the Darfur crisis, even keeping in mind that the rebel forces are far from blameless.
lionger,
Muslims or Islam or even those governments that claim being Islamic are not stigmatised because Arabs or the Muslim peasants or even you and I are proud of such governments. No. A government which delclare itself Islamic is only seen to mean a threat to the Western materialistic culture which aims at conquering the world and as such it is bound to be stigmatised. Afterall, if that is not the reason, and as well to assume the reason of geting the conflict overblown is only to save the innocent lives dying there why is it then the conflicts in other places are not overblown?
I really can understand your concern about the declaration of the state of Sudan to be Islamic which of course would make the non-muslims there feel a bit uncomfortable. But the truth remains that they shouldn't have been, since I believe Shari'a cannot be imposed on them just as it is not being imposed on non-muslim minorities in other Muslim countries. We can see that Malaysia is a Muslim country with 40% non-Muslim population but the philosophy of the country is Islamic and yet the non-muslim people there are not complaining. Though I always support the idea that the blacks in Sudan should be allowed to go it alone in their own country, but yet in this case I do not see reason in them engaging the Arabs in civil war just for the simple reason that Shari'a is there. And the Arabs can claim justly that they want unity and that is why they fight.
Finally, I agree with you that the government once used the Janjaweed against the rebels just as it used the black Muslim population there against the rebels. But this time around they believe Janjaweed is out of control. And as it is natural with every country, a soveiregn nation, they would not allow anybody to come in into their domestic affairs unless if necessary. This is the way I understand the Sudan government. They didn't allow international community in only after it became obvious to them they could not handle it.
I have just watched the BBC news on TV. A BBC camaera remained hidden in a village in Darfur and watched and filmed the Sudanese Police come into the village at night, chase the people out and then destroy the homes.
It filmed them coming back in the morning (in Police vehicles, in their Police uniforms) and beat up and kick the village elders and then fire tear gas into crowds of women and young children. Most of the women in the village have no men as they have all already been killed except the children and the old men.
It is not that the Sudan Government cannot control what is going on. The fact is the SUDAN GOVERNMENT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT IS GOING ON AND IS PRACTICING GENOCIDE AGAINST ITS BLACK POPULATION.
This evening on BBC TV news just as Dave has said there was a report of attacks by the Sudanness police on refugees in dafur, and these attack took place twice one at night/early hours and the second time at about 0700hrs in the morning according to the report. The report indicated that it was the sudaness police in their police uniforms.
Despite this report some people may soon say or suggest that the police were actually the Dafurians dressed in captured or stolen sudaness police uniforms and attacking there own people to give islam/muslims a bad name. What I am trying to point out is for as long as we continue to refuse to give excuses for people commiting atrocities, we will continue to have them.
QuoteA government which delclare itself Islamic is only seen to mean a threat to the Western materialistic culture which aims at conquering the world and as such it is bound to be stigmatised.
This is interesting, what about a government which is intolerable and does not allow others practise their way of life and their beliefs freely and openly what is their own fear? Surely adoption of any culture outside ones own culture is mainly a thing of choice. On the issue of conquering the world, it is the aim of all sides, if the other side had the means and power of the western world today they would also be doing the same. We have seen how there is a "race" by all sides to be in possession of WMD's. We must not try and potray any side as saints here, there is western propaganda and there is the muslim world propaganda as well
QuoteI really can understand your concern about the declaration of the state of Sudan to be Islamic which of course would make the non-muslims there feel a bit uncomfortable. But the truth remains that they shouldn't have been, since I believe Shari'a cannot be imposed on them just as it is not being imposed on non-muslim minorities in other Muslim countries. We can see that Malaysia is a Muslim country with 40% non-Muslim population but the philosophy of the country is Islamic and yet the non-muslim people there are not complaining
Him who feels it knows it! The non muslims in sudan do not feel a bit uncomfortable, they are uncomfortable. The non application of sharia law on non muslims in sudan is very theoritical, there have been a numerous cases of non muslims whom sharia law has been applied on and a great number of non muslims whom have been purnished under sharia law unrecorded. It was this injustice that triggered the civil war in sudan.
It is interesting that Waziri mentions the awful deeds that were done to the peoples of the Eastern Region during the Nigerian Civil War which was caused by the Easterners deciding to secede from the Federation - though there was a lot of blood flowing before they came to that decision. What happened then should be a warning to those who shout carelessly about breaking up the Federation or stoke up religious, ethnic or tribal tensions in Nigeria.
For younger forumites who may not be fully aware of the Biafran crisis in Nigeria the Federal Nigerian Government in complicity with Britain and the United States practised almost genocide against "nyamari" in the Eastern Region. Over 500,000 children under the age of ten died, mostly of starvation after Britain and America stopped the Red Cross flying food into Biafra and the final death toll of mostly civilian Easterners was over 1,500,000. Britain and America kept supplying the Federal Nigerian Army with guns and armaments after the rest of the world refused to do so and the British Government under Harold Wilson continually lied to the people of Britain about the slaughter that was going on in Nigeria.
This attempted genocide was done under the rule of the "christian" Yakubu Gowon.
Ok, Mr. David if BBC could get to the extent of planting such cameras in Dafur and refuse to do so in Chencheny,a wouldn't my suspicions be confirmed?
And you have rightly painted what happened when the Federal Government of Nigeria committed genocide on the Biafrans. But know that it is the reason and of course to avoid this kind of mass killing why we say an independant state of the blacks in Sudan must be created in order to stop this genocide. And also the we must start considering the option of liquidating the Nigerian federation at minimum scale of violence since the future at it seems now carries a very grim image of maximum civil war befallen the region.
You can understand my position most by doing justice to me to stop and read my discourse on this as published on my page in the following link. This discourse is now being published in one journal based at Britain next month. I expect to hear from you the "non-sense" and the "sense" you could carve out of my premise. What is unfortunate now is as your able onetime prime minister, Benjamin Disraeli, would say, " By divine instict, men mistrust ensuing danger". Thank you once again.
Panorama on BBC TV at 10.15 on Sunday night is a filmed account of the ongoing genocide in Darfur and contains really harrowing scenes of fields covered in decaying corpses etc. THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT THIS IS HAPPENING AT THE MOMENT. Forumites in UK should perhaps record the programme.
Waziri. I have no doubt that Russian behaviour in Chechneya has been murderous and completely disgraceful. We have seen much of it on TV.
However it has nothing whatever to do with what is happening in Sudan and what the BBC decides to film wherever in the world has no significance as regards to the events that are actually happening. I am not making any points about various religions. I am making points about wicked deeds. What religion those people committing those deeds are is unimportant.
It is true there are killings there. I passed thru' Sudan on my way to Nigeria recently. But as Mr. Waziri observed there is much exageration.
Humrah
I prefer to take the word of the Kofi Annan, the leader of the United Nations and the United Nations personnel in Sudan who state categorically that the true extent of the killings has been concealed and the actual conditions are much worse than anyone thought.
Why is there such an attempt on this forum to make excuses for the evil deeds going on in Sudan?
Yes, Mr. David while you hold the words of Kofi Annan in preference we ask all as to why there is not much story about Yelwan Shendam in Nigeria here where 58,000 people were killed but yet Dafur when 50,000 were killed according to your figures.
While we believe that killings are happening in Dafur which in not good, we also ask questions as to why is it that some forumnites here are interested in making it to sound like the only burning issue in the world? They have even stopped commenting on anything apart from it.
Waziri
You seem to be missing the point. Or are you telling me that the Government of Nigeria killed 58,000 of its own people?
Waziri, most certainly the Qur'an states that christians and jews are friends only to one another, and insha'Allah i will get the Surah and Ayah number.
Plus we are told that jews will retain their religion more than the christians (the christians have certainly changed their religion since).
oh yes Surah Taubah.
read the translation, i cant remember the Ayah.
Dave, how many more years will you waste in the dark?
allowing your goverment to play your mind like a football?
their's a conspiracy
a big yet clear one
and your aged eyes refuse to see it.
Quote from: "Dave_McEwan_Hill"Waziri
You seem to be missing the point. Or are you telling me that the Government of Nigeria killed 58,000 of its own people?
You see, had the BBC planted any secret camera in the area bedevilled by the crisis we would have seen how people in uniforms like that of Nigerian Armies or Police were killing innocent victims.
What is happening is whenever there is a crisis of that nature in Nigeria and other African countries, security men in the service of the government, side with the people of their tribes representing their sentiments. The thing is that worst in Africa. They do it secretly as the BBC recorded that of Sudan.
The point here is what BBC has shown is not enough to tell about how Sudan government side with Janjaweed. It is a "natural" phenomena in the history of conflict in Africa.
And remember that Kofi Anna is reading about this thing in Newspapers just like you do. His remarks may not claim more veracity than Humrah's in anyway, afterall it is this kind of report Tony Blair used on Iraqi's WMD only later to discover how untrue it was.
Also Kofi did not say the Sudaness government is directly involved in the ethnic cleansing. But rather said, it hide information about the extent of the damage done. This is quite normal with any sovereign nation. It wouldn't want a situation where it will appear uncapable of settling domestic conflicts of it's own. Many a times even in developed countries a disaster would occur only for the government to give a downsized figure about the damage incurred only to prove its capability on security or whatever. It is normal.
Finally, to guard my moral attributes I become very sensitive to the blames I put on others in the sense that I do not agree to blame people unless I am overtly defeated in my quest to defend them by overwhelming evidences. This comes out of my desire to avoid erring in saying others are BAD when in truth I can not prove any BETTER than them.
I pray I have put this matter to rest for now.
There has been a weak UN resolution on the killings in Sudan recently but it will not address the problem. I suspect the break-up of Sudan is inevitable and certainly the peoples of Darfur (the Fur tribe) and the peoples of the south of Sudan would be happier in their own countries. A solution worth thinking about would be a federal Sudan - but I fear the hatred is probably now too deep for that to be considered by one side or the other.
Yes, now we see the point Mr. David. And the problem is, virtually the whole of Africa is a potential Sudan in terms of ethno-religious crisis. Yes, the ideal is to think of a strong and united Sudan or even African continent or even world itself. But how practical can this be when separation serves as the surest way of saving lives?
Sir, I will be glad if you can go thru' my humble submission on these kind of crises that are bedevilling African countries on my page in the following website http://www.dawodu.com/waziri1.htm
The article was prepared for a London based journal on Africa. I pray you will have some patience to read and feed me back on the sense and the non-sense you can make out of its content.
I have just read the write up as in the link provided, it is a very interesting write up. The write up is quite academic and a bit void of the real issues in its focus on identity. It tries to sell the idea that identity in terms of geography, race, ethnicity etc only started after the 18th century and thus make ine to conclude that there was harmonious living amongst all prior to this time, that is wrong. The identity crises as we know it today is not a product of the post 17 century era. Man has always looked for difference and as he becomes concious of his environment and himself he becomes consious of the difference, it is thus an over simplification of the issue to suggest that identity did not pose a problem in the pre 18th C era.
The problem is not whether people are identify themselves diferently, but more of how do we manage identity as a part and parcel of human nature. One may ask why do people want to be identified with a specific group, geographical location, etc? If we examine why people identify with a group, geographical location etc we will understand that the reason for it is (1) for protection (2) to dominate. These are the two main reasons and they are opposing to each other. Then we have to ask why do people want protection or why do they want to dominate.
These groupings create an undesirable segmentation of the whole however segmentation of the whole may be desired in order to obtain managable parts, this type of segmentation is desirable and it is usually out of choice with each of the unit parts knowing, understanding and aiming for the collective goal and thus identity and difference in this case cultivates a healthy competition that is benificial to the unit parts.
QuoteGovernment should as a matter of urgency quickly enact new laws and policies that will seriously affect the way we perceive one another as political and social subject of one state. That is to say, a new standard that will neglect geography and ethnic affiliation whenever it comes to deciding who earns what in the political equation must be borne to reign. Let it be that it is only one set of values that determine what one gets as it is obtained prior to the 18th century
A very true statement but will be a folly if we can not see each other as equals, as human beings, as people of the same country, as a people with the same desires, as a people with the same goals.
There probably can not be a more true statement than this
QuoteWhen a particular section or tribe is ruling, it has to spend more than half of its days planning on how to safeguard the throne, maintain control and quench oppositions than it spends designing or implementing its work plan for the betterment of the people. And this is done at the expense of the people.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Opps guys sorry forgot this thread was about Sudan
Unless we are able to look each other in the face and tell each other that it is wrong for one african to kill another african for what ever reason and irrespective of our group belonging, we will have Dafur, Ruwanda, Congo, Zangon Kataf etc. We must find a way of shaking our tendency of concoting conspiracy theories and try and condem evil for what it is. The starting point of the discussion of the dafur crisis should be an addmitance by us that it is wrong not to justify it or question other crises, that is only diverting our attention from the issue
The above review of my write-up happened to be very casual and unproductive in the sense that the reviewer misplaced the context and content of my argument as enshrined therein. For example the reviewer said:
QuoteI have just read the write up as in the link provided, it is a very interesting write up. The write up is quite academic and a bit void of the real issues in its focus on identity. It tries to sell the idea that identity in terms of geography, race, ethnicity etc only started after the 18th century and thus make ine to conclude that there was harmonious living amongst all prior to this time, that is wrong. The identity crises as we know it today is not a product of the post 17 century era. Man has always looked for difference and as he becomes concious of his environment and himself he becomes consious of the difference, it is thus an over simplification of the issue to suggest that identity did not pose a problem in the pre 18th C era.
This is not what my write-up said and it is very clear to every good, not even necessarily a deep thinker. This is the point as contained therein:
QuoteIt suffices here to say prior to 18th century and before the emergence of the concept of nation-states, humankind are mostly identified by the kind of values they represent wherever they go, not their race, colour or any kind of geographic attachment. Among other races or political organizations, what determines what individuals get is the type of values they represent. If they are good according to the standard of any political and social setting, they will find no impediments in issues relating to marriage, leadership and any other right the "indigenous" population may enjoy.
And again I went further to say:
Quote
The revolutions that happened in Europe and America from the late 18th century to early 19th century could be said to be the most prominent that occupied itself with the issue of right of man and the right of nations to self determination, and decent and race as the major factors in determining who belonged to them and who did not. In America, black people, even though free could not enjoy full citizenship whereas recent immigrants from Europe were conferred with full citizenship. Later this kind of position was accorded legitimacy and scientific respectability with the "scientific" breakthroughs, or rather intellectual treason, recorded by Charles Darwin with his theory of evolution and formula of master race[9].
So it is clear that we did not say prior to 18th century there was no issue of difference among humans, we only said then the difference or identity crises was being pursued in VALUES not GEOGRAPHY, ETHNIC, or TRIBAL affiliation as it is now.
The rest of the comments of this reviewer cannot be meaningful again since he did not even take his time to read what we have written not to talk of digesting fully. After all whatever we said we sited example with good reference material. I had to even thread the path of using my own familial unit to illustrate my points.
Another very problematic position taken by the reviewer is when he quoted further something from my work that suggested, that Nigerians should evolve a system that neglects geography and ethnic affiliation in its share of resources or political offices. He quoted that and remarked that we must look for a way TO SEE ONE ANOTHER AS EQUALS. He gave that as a counter to what I said when in essens that was what I said.
I really do not know why this reviewer wants to FORCEFULLY counter my statements :roll: :roll:
But when people naturally lack the ability to grasp the nobility of some ideas and comprehend issues they only dismiss thoughts to be just CONSPIRATIONAL. In this then they should know we are not talking to them but to those who are capable of discussing IDEAS and IDEOLOGIES. Let there be no room for them here again.
Please anybody commenting on my article should just read it.
-Waziri_
This is directly addressed to you. You must not allow your personal feeling towards me cloud your judgement or reading ability where I am involved. Kindly read what you qouted from me and your article carefully you clearly tried to sell the idea that identity based on geography, ethnicity, race etc was unknown prior to the 18th century. You try to present a veiw that values they represent was the determing factor, the point which you seem to miss is that the very same values you are refering to are encased in race, colour, gender, geography etc. At no point did I say you said there was harmoniuos living prior to the 18 century what was said that you lead one to conclude that there was a harmonious living prior to that time and this is contained in the style of writing.
You wrote: "Another very problematic position taken by the reviewer is when he quoted further something from my work that suggested, that Nigerians should evolve a system that neglects geography and ethnic affiliation in its share of resources or political offices. He quoted that and remarked that we must look for a way TO SEE ONE ANOTHER AS EQUALS. He gave that as a counter to what I said when in essens that was what I said.
I really do not know why this reviewer wants to FORCEFULLY counter my statements"
Again I refer you to what you wrote and what I wrote there are fundamental differences we may be saying the same thing but from different veiw points hence at the begining of my comment I refered to your statement as true. The main difference is you are seeing it from a government and political level in terms of distribution of positions and other political gains. My comment is strictly based on a people to people relationship vopid of government and politics. So please read carefuly do not allow you dislike or hatred for another person cloud your judgement!
I am aware that this is not the thread to discuss an individuals write up on a separate subject matter. But seeing that some people have ascribed to themselves an all knowing all thinking all reasonable position to the point that even comments made on their write ups are not thought thouroughly before they respond then that leaves one to wonder. People allow their personal feelings on others interfer with their judgements and try to give an impression that they are reasonable and seek solutions or dialogue they show complete intolerance of others for personal reasons and try to give an impression that they are reasonable people who think issues thoroughly - what a contradiction. I rest my case and close any discussion or comment by myself on the refered link/article in this thread.[/quote]
No. Mallamt, values are not entrenched in race and ethnicity. Values in Islam are universal. They are also universal in Christianity. I believe by your quotes of me above and my quotes of my self above will prove to the reader whether I really sought to lead people to believe there was a harmonious living among humans prior to the 18th century.
Secondly, What you said and what I said as you further quoted is the same. There is no way we can see one another as equals if not from government and politico-social point of view, which is what I stressed in the article. If you insist we must see one another as equals in that sense you put, then know that it is NOT realistic. Treat one another as equal is what we need. But we can't see or love as equal. I really do not see my brother as my EQUAL.
Finally, if you have learnt anything in this, I suppose should be, the ability to keep to yourself when there is nothing you can say on some issues raised, thus I would be fulfilled if you never respond to this again. Here is not the discussion of my write-up or any body's but my or anybody's write-up that borders alongside the subject matter, which is ethno-religious crises in Sudan, its origin, whom to blame and what can be done to curb its re-occorence in other parts of Africa.
We are not here to condemn Arabs or blame them for what is happening in Sudan only but find the true positions of things and stem the tide before it consumes everybody.