?In fact my interest in writing about this topic became necessary as a result of some misconceptions about muslim's ways of life,resulting in castigation,denunciations and negative propagander against shariah and muslims.
Ever since Governor Ahmad Sani of Zamfara state annouced the intention to introduce Shariah legal system (criminal aspect) ,the media and christians did not also help matters with their negative reports and labelling of anything islamic.
WHAT SHARIAH IS
shariah means path to take or to follow.By the Shariah of God is meant that everything is legislated by Allah for ordering man's life,it includes the principles of believe,Administration,justice,Morality,Human relations and principles of life.
SHARIAH'S OBJECTIVES
To cater for interest of people,relieve them from hardships,to promote their welfare to safe guard their faith,intellect,mercy,posterity and their prosperity.Infact shariah is all about justice,mercy and wisdom.Therefore anything that departs from justice to oppression,from mercy to harshness,from welfare to misery,from wisdom to folly,has nothing to do with shariah.
COMPARATIVE ANALYSIS
The christians and their media systems accuse shariah of wickedness,barbarism,brutality,etc.They might as well be condenming their God,His laws and percepts,albeit unknowingly.let us examine some examples.
MURDER CASE
Qur'an[ 2:178] prescribes life for life,but if victims relations so desire,they may collect compensation and allow the murderer to live.
The bible says "THOU SHALL NOT KILL" Exodus [20:13].But what about the punishment for those who violet this commandment?the bible says:
THOSE WHO STRIKES A MAN SO THAT HE DIES SHALL BE PUT TO DEATH [Exodus 21:12]
"YOUR LIFE SHALL NOT PITY,IT SHALL BE LIFE FOR LIFE,EYE FOR EYE,TOOTH FOR TOOTH,HAND FOR HAND,FOOT FOR FOOT"[Deutreronomy 19:21]
But a christian will say these are laws of Moses in the old testament in contradistinction to the law of love preached by Jesus in the new testament.We ask the question:Who is the God of the old and new testament?Is it one and the same God or are they two different Gods?Or does the God of the old testament chage his mind in the new testament?christians should provide answers.But the Bible says:
"AND YOU ARE TO TEACH THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL ALL THE STATUTES (LAWS) WHICH THE LORD HAS SPOKEN TO THEM BY MOSES"[Leviticus 10:11]
"IT IS A STATUTE (LAW) FOR EVER THROUGH OUT YOUR GENERATIONS"[Leviticus 23:41]
"SO YOU SHALL REMEMBER AND DO ALL MY COMMANDMENTS,AND BE HOLY TO YOUR GOD"[Numbers15:40]
But"IF YOU ARE NOT CAREFUL TO DO ALL THE WORDS OF THIS LAW WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK...THEN THE LORD WILL BRING ON YOU AND YOUR OFFSRING,EXTRAORDINARY AFFLICTIONS SEVERE AND LASTING,AND SICKNESS GRIEVIOUS AND LASTING"[Deutronomy 28:58,59].
Christians should remember what God says in Malachi 3:6
"FOR I THE LORD DO NOT CHANGE"
Because the laws in the old testament were still effective during Jesus time,he said:
THINK NOT THAT I HAVE COME TO ABOLISH THE LAW AND PROPHET,I HAVE COME NOT TO ABOLISH THEM BUT TO FULFIL THEM.FOR TRULY,I SAY TO YOU,TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH ?PASS AWAY,NOT AN IOTA NOT A DOT,WILL PASS FROM THE LAW UNTIL ALL IS ACCOMPLISHED.WHOEVER THEN RELAXES ONE OF THE LEAST OF THESE COMMANDMENTS AND TEACHES MEN SO,SHALL BE LEAST IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN,BUT HE WHO DOES THEM AND TEACHES THEM SHALL BE CALLED GREAT IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN[Mathew 5:17-19].
THEFT CASE:
The Qur'an says:
AS TO THE THIEF MALE OR FEMALE,CUT OFF HIS OR HER HANDS,A RETRIBUTION FOR THEIR DEED AND EXEMPLARY PUNISHMENT FROM ALLAH...
BUT IF THE THIEF REPENTS AFTER HIS CRIME AND AMEND HIS CONDUCT,ALLAH TURNETH TO HIM IN FOREGIVENESS,FOR ALLAH IS OFT-FORGIVING,MOST MERCIFUL[Qur'an 5:38,39]
However the Bible prescribes that:
IF A MAN STEALS...HE SHALL BE MAKE RESTITUTION,IF HE HAS NOTHING,HE SHALL BE SOLD FOR HIS THEFT (IN TO SLAVERY) [Exodus 22:1-3]
WOE TO THE WORLD FOR TEMPTATION TO SIN.FOR IT IS NECESSARY THAT TEMPTATION COME,BUT WOE TO THE MAN BY WHOM TEMPTATION COMES.IF YOUR HAND OR FOOT CAUSES YOU TO SIN,CUT IT OFF AND THROW IT AWAY,IT IS BETTER FOR YOU TO ENTER LIFE MAIMED OR LAMED THAN WITH TWO HANDS OR TWO FEETS TO BE THROWN IN TO THE FIRE. AND IF YOUR EYE CAUSES YOU TO SIN,PLUCK IT OUT THROW IT AWAY.[Mathew 18:7-9]
ADULTERY AND FORNICATION
Shariah prescribes that fornicators be given hundred strokes of the cane and adulterers and adulteresses should be stoned to death.[Qur'an 24:2 and sahihal bukhari vol 8/6814] in the case of fornicators and adulterers respectively.
The Bible says:
"YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY"[Exodus 20:14] AND IF A MAN SEDUCES A VIRGIN...AND LIES WITH HER HE SHALL MAKE HER HIS WIFE[Exodus 22:16]
And "IF A MAN COMMITS ADULTERY WITH THE WIFE OF HIS NEIGHBOUR,BOTH THE ADULTERER AND THE ADULTERESS SHALL BE PUT TO DEATH.THE MAN WHO LIES WITH HIS FATHER'S WIFE HAS UNCOVERED HIS FATHER'S NAKEDNESS,BOTH OF THEM SHALL BE PUT TO DEATH... IF A MAN LIES WITH HIS DAUTHER-IN-LAW,BOTH OF THEM SHALL BE PUT TO DEATH...IF A MAN LIES WITH A MALE AS WITH A WOMAN [i.e Homosexuality]...THEY SHALL BE PUT TO DEATH. [Leviticus 20:10-13]
USURY
Shariah prohibits usury in a very strong terms[see Qur'an 2:275-281].The Bible also says"YOU SHALL NOT LEND YOUR MONEY AT INTEREST"
PROPER DRESS CODE (VEIL OR HIJAB)
What the Qur'an says will be found in chapter 24:31 and chapter 33:59.
The bible also prescribes modest and sensible apperel and befit women who profess religion [1 Timothy 2:9,10]
The Bible also says:
"FOR IF A WOMAN WILL NOT VEIL HERSELF,THEN SHE SHOULD CUT OF HER HAIR,BUT IF IT IS DISGRACEFUL FOR A WOMAN TO BE SHORN OR SHAVEN,LET HER WEAR A VEIL...THAT IS ?WHY ?A WOMAN OUGHT TO HAVE A VEIL ON HER HEAD,BECAUSE OF THE ANGELS."[1 Corinthians 11:6 and 10]
The Bible also prescribes that women should keep silent in the church,that it is a shameful thing for a woman to speak in the church,that even if she had any question,her husband should ask on her behalf.(1 Conrintians 14:34,35).
But what happens now adays you ?even see pastors that are women.
From the fore going,we see that true christians ought to support Shariah rather than stigmatising and opposing it to the extend of fighting and killing their fellow humanbeings.
Infact,they are suppose to clamour for the implementation of their on version of Shariah which is more sensible.However,Shariah is for those who truly and sincerely serve and worship God.
Maassalam.
?
Mallam Barde
It is not entirely true that Sharia exists in the Bible. What exists in the Old Bible (torah) is God's law sent down to Musa known as the Ten commandments. With the coming of Muhammad(SAW) those laws became obsolete and only the law of the Quran and sunnah are valid in Allah's court.
May Allah guide us all.
QuoteMallam Barde
It is not entirely true that Sharia exists in the Bible. What exists in the Old Bible (torah) is God's law sent down to Musa known as the Ten commandments. With the coming of Muhammad(SAW) those laws became obsolete and only the law of the Quran and sunnah are valid in Allah's court.
May Allah guide us all.
Assalamu alaikum,
First of all,i am not up to the status ?of a Mallam,am only an almajiri on a learning process.
Secondly,i think brother Amin did not read or understand what i wrote.I didn't say we should discard the Holy Qur'an and start implementing what the bible is saying,I just compared what the Holy Qur'an and the bible are saying about shariah.
Considering the kind opposition shariah is receiving from christians that's why i decided to remaind them what they are antagonising is there in their bible.
Prominent scholars like Ahmad Deedat,Imam Hamza Yusuf,Sheik Faisal are always emphasing the use of bible against the christians,you cannot convince a christian by quoting verses from the Holy Qur'an alone because he does not believe in it,you can only convince him by quoting from the bible. I don't have to tell the importance of Da'awah in islam.
Bible (injeel) is among the books that were revealed by ALLAH (SWT),so it's obligatory to believe in it eventhough the present day bible is been concocted but there are still some verses in the bible that corresponds to the verses in the Holy qur'an.Below are some examples of such verses.
(1).He(ProphetMuhammad s.a.w) does not speak of his own desire,it is no less than an inspiration sent down to him,he was taugh by one mighty in power. (Qur'an 53 verse 3-5)
This is the corresponding verse in the bible,
I will rise them up a prophet from among their brethren,like on to thee and i will put my words in his mouth and he can speak unto them all that i shall command him. (Deutronomy 18:18)
(2).and giving glad tidings of a messenger to come after me,whose name shall be Ahmad.(qur'an 61:6)
This is what the bible is says
And i pray the father and he shall give you another comforter,that he may abide with you forever.(john14:16)
My brothers the the list of such verses are endless,We just have to believe in those verses that conform to the Holy qur'an.I stand to be corrected.Allah(s.w.t.) knows best.
Ma'assalam.
Hello Barde,
That is a nice piece but just clear your conceptions about somethings:
1. Bible and Injil are not the same: While Bible is the collection of booklet written by jews and their prophets (?) consisting of their history, quatations from Holy Books (Injil, Torah, Psalms, etc). It consist of 2 parts ie Old and New Testaments. New Testament narrated the story of Jesus and contains some quatation from Injil (Gospel) as preached by him (supposed!). The Old Testament contain the stories of Jewish Kingdoms and Kings, Prophets and Prophecies with quatations from older scriptures. Check the Bible yourself and find many examples.
2. Christian are not living under any Law, but they are under the grace. Just believe in Jesus as your saviour and you are saved. Nothing else! Salvation is cheap in Christianity. All the supposed quotation from Bible is from the old testament before the coming of the Christ. So understand Christianity before you start thinking they have Sharia.
3. There is nowhere in the Quran where it is said the married adulterer/ess should be stoned to death. The Quranic verse you quoted only talked about canning irrespective of marital status. I dont know where muslims get that injuction that claimed the life of innocent people and causing a lot of controversy in the Sharia implementation in Northern Nigeria. Most likely from the Bible! :o
Hi
Don?t mind Christians, so many things they do just reflects their hatred to Islam.
They will deny everything U tell me them even if they know it is true.
They live under grace! Hahaha? not law! Does that means they are lawless. I wonder.
They muslims also have their fault. Why do we have to copy their laws-STONING TO DEATH! It sound jewish to me also as I cant find it in Quran myself.
Very good work Barde! ?I am a Christian, and I am one of those people (in fact the only person) who has challenged Northern Nigeria's Sharia on this forum; maybe you know that already ?;D. Now what I'm about to say may be quite long, but, well u earned it!
You have mentioned several verses that seemingly assert that Christians shuold follow Sharia. But as I told AbuMujahid a while back, Christians do not live under any law, but by the grace of God thru Jesus Christ. In other words, we are not saved because we obey rules or do good deeds, but because we believe in Jesus. Now that does not mean we are free to do whatever we like - and this is also for you Eskimo. We are freed from sin, but have now become 'slaves to righteousness':
Romans 6:15-19: 'What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey - whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness...You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."
This righteousness comes from believing in Jesus. The word Christian actually means 'Christ-like' and as such, Christians follow the example Jesus set when He was on earth. Now to show you the power of this grace to cover all sins, I will debunk your arguments and passages with Jesus' words and even some examples in the old testament! I'll start by showing you the impossibility of obtaining righteousness through the law.
First of all, the law God gave Moses was cumbersome by all standards. It went way past the ten commandments; try reading the book of Leviticus. Much of the Old testament proves that Israel failed woefully in keeping this law. Secondly, the law stated that if one of the commandments were broken, then all were broken (I can't find the exact verse in the Bible yet). Thirdly, the law states that the soul that sins will die, and that each man will die for his own sin (Ezekiel 18:20). Finally, God says that all our righteousness is like filthy rags before Him (Isaiah 64:6). Conclusion: everyone's a sinner and will suffer condemnation.
To compound things even further, Jesus adds a new dimension to the interpretation of the law in Matthew 6. To the Murder case, Jesus says this:
'You have heard...anyone who murders will be subject to judgement. But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgement...anyone who says, 'You are a fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.' Matthew 6:21,22.
To adultery he says:
'...anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.' Matthew 6:28.
But slowly Jesus begins to introduce the 'law of love' as you said. In response to 'an eye for and eye', which you quoted, Jesus says: '...do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tonic, give him your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.' Matthew 6:39-42. Later Jesus even goes as far as saying, 'love your enemies'!
The power of love to cover all sins is demonstrated again in John 8:3-11 when the Pharisees bring an adulterous woman to Jesus. He challenges those w/out sin to throw the first stone, and when their consciences force them to leave her alone, He say: 'Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more.'
Again, in Matthew 12, Jesus is asked why his disciples (who were hungry) are breaking Sabbath laws by harvesting and eating heads of grain on the Sabbath day. He reminded them of the time David and his followers went into the temple and ate consecrated beard - reserved fro priests and unlawful for others - and yet were held innocent! He mentions the fact that priests desecrated the temple on the Sabbath days, yet were guiltless, and finally quotes the Old Testament again: ' I desire mercy, not sacrifice' (Hosea 6:6).
What this shows is that even in the Law that so eloquently produced Sharia as you pointed out, there was a foreboding of the grace that was to come through Christ. Note that in all this Jesus never broke the Law; true to his words in Matthew 5:17, which you quoted.
As He was sinless, only His sacrifice was acceptable before God in stead of the condemnation of all human beings. Just as Adam's disobedience brought sin and separated the whole world from God, Christ's obedience brings us back to God - if we accept it. We are no under an obligation to fulfil the law ?because Christ has fulfilled it; (Matthew 5:17-19 -remember ur quotation?). This is the belief of a Christian.
Finally, 1 Peter 4: 8 ?- 'love covers a multitude of sins'. Jesus was popular among 'sinners' and society outcasts because he loved them, unlike the pharisees who through their steadfast observance of the law, thought it fit to look down on and condemn others. Just like Nigeria's Sharia which I said will make victims of the poor masses and satisfy the ambitions of power-hungry politicians. The Christian attitude to Sharia is well summed up in Jesus' own words: 'he who is without sin should cast the first stone. How can we compel others to a law that we ourselves cannot keep? Instead of amputation, flogging and death by stoning (punishment and condemnation), why can't we provide programs that will take care of these ppl and enable them to stand on their feet (love and mercy)?
I haven't forgotten your comments on women; and I have an answer for that, but I don't want to go into that now because this post is already too long. For now I'll say that If you read the verses b4 and after your first quotation on the subject, u'll see that it concerns propriety in worshipping Christ. It is not a dress code for women in the workplace, on the streets or even at home. I might reply your other quotations on a separate post or even a PM. But brace yourself - ?it may require a higher level of thinking on your part ;D
Your replies are very interesting,let me start with the issue of Bible and injeel,islamically they are the same, if not because of the adulteration of the bible by christians.Injeel is the holy book revealed to prophet Isa(jesus)alaihissalam through which islam was propagated to the jews during the era of prophet Isa.The book disclosed how jesus called his people (jews)to islamic monothism(oneness of ALLAH S.W.T) as evident from the verses.There are so many interpolations in the present day bible(s)hence the difference.
If at all christians do not live under any law then what can you say about the verses i quoted from the bible (mathew 5:17_19)Jesus even emphasised it to his people in (mathew 5_21) which states and i quote, You have heard that the LAW OF MOSES (emphasis mine) says do not murder, if you commit murder,you are subject to judgement.(mathew 5_21),as lionger rightly quoted,If i may ask,which laws and judgement was Jesus refering to? I need some explanations please.What lionger quoted about grace or whatever was just an admornition as to how his(jesus) followers should coexist,but once any body violet any of the laws he is subjected to the punishment,You will agree with me that if at christians do not live under any law,jesus would'nt have wasted his time telling them of any law(s) in the new(modernised)testament.Infact muslims loves jesus more than the christians.
From my discussions with alot of chrisians,i was made to understand that, what they believe and practice is contrary to what the bible is saying.Because of time constraint i can only mention two examples, ?
1(a).When Jesus was asked about the important commandment ?his answer was and i quote, Hear oh israel! Our lord God is the one and only lord. (Mark 13vrs21)
(b).Jesus said and i quote,This is the way to have eternal life - to know you,the one and only true God and Jesus christ the one you sent to earth.(john 17vrs3)
Considering the above verses, Jesus emphasised on monotheism,he didn't say there are three GOds in one (wa iyyazhu billah) as most of the christian denominations believe.
The second example is how Jesus christ prayed during his life time which contradict how christiantians are performing their prayers,As stated below.
" He went on a little farther and fell FACE DOWN ON THE GROUND. (emphasis mine) He prayed that if it were possible,the awful hour awaiting him might pass him by".(mark 14vrs35).
?My brothers, i don't have to tell you how christians are praying now adays.I will present some more examples to this forum as soon as i finish compiling them inshaAllah.
The issue of shariah implementation,christians are just meddling in to something that does not affect them,like the case of Safiya Hussaini and Amina Lawan, more over the christians are ignorant of what shariah is all about, I dont see any reason why a muslim will not be allowed to practice something that he has been created for,more over our constitution allows that.There are so many courts,no christian will be prosecuted under shariah law,Shariah is so considered that it's allows the sell of alcohol in some places for the fact that there are some verses in the bible which allows christians to drink.They should just mind their own business and allow muslims to live according to how ALLAH (SWT)decreed.
Shariah is suprem nobody have any right to change or modify it,once you are a muslim the laws are biding on you,so the issue of providing an alternative or any programme does not arise.
The evidence for the adulterers can be found in sahih Albukhari (vol 8,hadith 805).
lionger,am waiting for your comment about what i said concerning women.
QuoteHi
Don?t mind Christians, so many things they do just reflects their hatred to Islam.
They will deny everything U tell me them even if they know it is true.
They live under grace! Hahaha? not law! Does that means they are lawless. I wonder.
They muslims also have their fault. Why do we have to copy their laws-STONING TO DEATH! It sound jewish to me also as I cant find it in Quran myself.
Muslims are not really copying from christians,All the laws are from the same source that's why there are similarities.The evidence of stoning to death can be found in hadith(sayings,deeds,and approvals accurately narrated from the prophet S.A.W).Sahih Albukhari vol 8 hadith 805.
BARDE,
Thanks for your reply. On women:
I have already replied to your first quotation on the subject. It concerns the dress code of women while praying/worshipping Christ. Not a universal 'any time, any place' dress code. The Bible certainly preaches sensible wholesome dressing for both sexes. I can't stress that point enough. Not the sort of stuff we see Hollywood actresses wearing these days.
Now to your other point, which can be found in II Timothy. Yes, the Bible says so, no doubt about it. But then why do we read in Acts 21:9 of ?Philip the evangelist's four daughters who prophecied? Or in the old testament of women like Huldah the prophetess ( II Kings 22:14), and Deborah (Judges 4, 5)? Why would God pour His Spirit on women if He really didn't want them to say anything in church?
The part-answer to this question lies in the understanding of one very important verse, which is mentioned more than once in the New Testament: I Corinthians 6:12, 10:23 - 'Everything is permissible - but not everything is beneficial.' This is one absolute truth (in moral and spiritual terms) that guides the actions of Christians. The first time this quote is mentioned (I Cor. 6:12), Paul was talking about abstinence from sexual immorality. At the second instance, he was talking about not offending other Christians' moral ?or even cultural sensibilities, without giving in to sin or breaking the Faith. The latter point is very important. Christianity naturally comes in conflict with some of our cultural habits, some of which definitely have to give way to the Faith - human sacrifice, idol worship etc. Others remain within a Christian context - ?and this applies to the position of women in the society.
So ask yourself: What good is it if a woman stands up in church and lectures, in a time and place where women are strongly viewed as the lesser sex? Not much benefit. And the Bible says, 'Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil' (Romans 14:16.) In the passage surrouding this verse, Paul was talking about the same subject in the passage after I Cor 10:23. So you see, the verse in II Timothy was for the sake of peace in the church, and denotes the societal norms of the time.
But what about Philip's four daughters, Huldah and Deborah? The following three verses answer this question. Romans 8: 13 - "...those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God." This Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit (the third in the Trinity), sent to empower Christians to live the life that Jesus lived. Jesus, being the Son of God, was filled with the Spirit, and as such He was able to do the things He did. So those who are led by the Spirit are covered by grace and are above societal rules and values: Galatians 5:18 - '.But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.'' Therefore if a Spirit-filled woman stands up and delivers a message in church, she has not sinned. If those who are listening are also filled with the Spirit, they will not take offense cuz they will know that God is talking. This is the freedom I was talking about in my last post. 'Where the Spirit of God is, there is freedom.' II Corinthians 3:17.
Finally, if you had read further down that passage where you derived your first quote on women's dress code, you would have discovered this verse:
'In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman.' I Cor. 11:11.
Quote
If at all christians do not live under any law then what can you say about the verses i quoted from the bible (mathew 5:17_19)Jesus even emphasised it to his people in (mathew 5_21) which states and i quote, You have heard that the LAW OF MOSES (emphasis mine) says do not murder, if you commit murder,you are subject to judgement.(mathew 5_21),as lionger rightly quoted,If i may ask,which laws and judgement was Jesus refering to? I need some explanations please.What lionger quoted about grace or whatever was just an admornition as to how his(jesus) followers should coexist,but once any body violet any of the laws he is subjected to the punishment,You will agree with me that if at christians do not live under any law,jesus would'nt have wasted his time telling them of any law(s) in the new(modernised)testament. Infact muslims loves jesus more than the christians.
I have already explained Matthew 5:17-19 but you are still confused. If you had read further down to verse 20, you would have seen this: "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." The Pharisees and teachers of the law were the closest anyone at the time could come to perfection in fulfilling the Law. Yet Jesus is saying one has to be even holier to get into God's kingdom! Why? To explain what He meant by that, Jesus went on to give a new interpretation of parts of the law (Matthew 5:21 and the rest of that chapter). Under this new light, it is easy to see that the Pharisees were obviously lacking.
The law Jesus was talking about was the law that God gave Moses, and the law by which the Jews of Jesus' time lived. They of course lived by the law as a means of obtaining righteousness. As such, Jesus talked to them about the commandments. If the Pharisees were not good enough for God's Kingdom, then no-one was, and all were subject to judgement. What judgement? God's judgement on all sinners as a result of sin: death. By this I don't just mean physical death, also spiritual death - eternal separation from God(Matthew 5: 22, the last sentence). So we accept Jesus' covering, the one man who never sinned, and offered to take our punishment out of love. Read again the second and third paragraphs of my first post, and note my narrative of Jesus and the adulterous woman later.
On monotheism: Your first quote cannot be found in Mark 13:21. Anyways, the trinity nature of God is a complicated matter that many Christians do not fully undestand. I myself cannot confess to understanding it completely. Sometimes Christians have to submit to God's sovereign nature and accept His Word at face value. Proverbs 25:2 says 'It is the glory of God to conceal a matter." However, you should read John 1. It starts by saying: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." 13 verses later, "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us" obviously referring to Jesus. In other words, Jesus is the Word and is God.
Finally, note Matthew 28:19 where Jesus was giving his disciples final instructions - 'Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..".
Finally on prayer: note how Jesus prayed in John 12:27, or in John 17:1. My friend, Jesus never prescribed a particular posture for prayer. You can pray while standing, sitting, even lying down, walking, any posture. See once again, my friend, freedom! Freedom under God's grace!
Excelent work barde,but look at the flock that will litsen to you first.
you cant start playing arabian music in front of a chinese audience.
what i am trying to say is your work was beautiful.
God knows where u get yur information but i would like to go through them, is there any site regarding this stuff? hope so.
hmmmmmm
but barde should we really try to teach christians through thier own book?? reflecting things in the Holy Qur'an?
I guess thats highly dangerous because as we know the Bible is highly adulterated. They have the new version, old version, new testament old testament, bla bla bla they have mixed up thier religion so much that by the time we qoute something from one book, another has a contradicting version.
So at-least we got our own book.
As for the eskimo of ng. man where are the snow deserts were u are supposed to live?
Qur'an has a whole lot of information, But things that miss out which we would want to know and are not available or too hard to understand are simplified in the Hadiths. Better grab one of these imam's books . Shafi'i,Hanafi,Hambali or my favorite... Muwatta Imam Malik.
Yes, its very piuos of you to read the Qur'an with translation but its better you go step wise. Try to understand your religion first. What is it that we ought to do and what not.
i will wait for a positive or negative reply.
Ali Hamza
QuoteBARDE,
Thanks for your reply. On women:
I have already replied to your first quotation on the subject. It concerns the dress code of women while praying/worshipping Christ. Not a universal 'any time, any place' dress code. The Bible certainly preaches sensible wholesome dressing for both sexes. I can't stress that point enough. Not the sort of stuff we see Hollywood actresses wearing these days.
Now to your other point, which can be found in II Timothy. Yes, the Bible says so, no doubt about it. But then why do we read in Acts 21:9 of ?Philip the evangelist's four daughters who prophecied? Or in the old testament of women like Huldah the prophetess ( II Kings 22:14), and Deborah (Judges 4, 5)? Why would God pour His Spirit on women if He really didn't want them to say anything in church?
The part-answer to this question lies in the understanding of one very important verse, which is mentioned more than once in the New Testament: I Corinthians 6:12, 10:23 - 'Everything is permissible - but not everything is beneficial.' This is one absolute truth (in moral and spiritual terms) that guides the actions of Christians. The first time this quote is mentioned (I Cor. 6:12), Paul was talking about abstinence from sexual immorality. At the second instance, he was talking about not offending other Christians' moral ?or even cultural sensibilities, without giving in to sin or breaking the Faith. The latter point is very important. Christianity naturally comes in conflict with some of our cultural habits, some of which definitely have to give way to the Faith - human sacrifice, idol worship etc. Others remain within a Christian context - ?and this applies to the position of women in the society.
So ask yourself: What good is it if a woman stands up in church and lectures, in a time and place where women are strongly viewed as the lesser sex? Not much benefit. And the Bible says, 'Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil' (Romans 14:16.) In the passage surrouding this verse, Paul was talking about the same subject in the passage after I Cor 10:23. So you see, the verse in II Timothy was for the sake of peace in the church, and denotes the societal norms of the time.
But what about Philip's four daughters, Huldah and Deborah? The following three verses answer this question. Romans 8: 13 - "...those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God." This Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit (the third in the Trinity), sent to empower Christians to live the life that Jesus lived. Jesus, being the Son of God, was filled with the Spirit, and as such He was able to do the things He did. So those who are led by the Spirit are covered by grace and are above societal rules and values: Galatians 5:18 - '.But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.'' Therefore if a Spirit-filled woman stands up and delivers a message in church, she has not sinned. If those who are listening are also filled with the Spirit, they will not take offense cuz they will know that God is talking. This is the freedom I was talking about in my last post. 'Where the Spirit of God is, there is freedom.' II Corinthians 3:17.
Finally, if you had read further down that passage where you derived your first quote on women's dress code, you would have discovered this verse:
'In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman.' I Cor. 11:11.
Lionger,
I knew it wasn't enough that's why i said,i was waiting for your reply.
Thanks for revealing to us that christianity is restricted only during prayers.For clearity,permit me to requote the verse in question. "So a woman should wear a covering on her head as a sign of authority because the angels are watching" (1corinthians 11:10)
Does that means the angels are only with you while praying?since according to what you said,the verse is applicable only when women are praying/worshipping.
Now, coming to the questions you asked me pertaining to women speaking in the church,i think you are in a better position to give us explanations as to why the discrepancies between the verses,some are saying women should speak in the church while others are saying they shouldn't.Remember the bible says "God is the authour of comfusion".
Thanx once more,this has no doubt added to my catalogue of contradictions in the bible(s).
By the way,i was reading through the bible yesternight,i came across some verses that will help in confuting the christians about leaving under any law.
"But i say if you are angry with someone,you are subject to judgement,if you call someone idiot,you are in danger of being brought before the high council and if you curse someone you are in danger of the fires of hell"(matthew5:22).
"Come to terms quickly with your enemy before it is too late and you are dragged in to court,handed to an officer and thrown to jail"(matthew5:25).
and hear what the golden rule says,
"Do for others what you would like them to do for you,this is the summary of the law and prophets"(matthew 7:12)
Now,if at all christians do not live under any law,what brought the issue of courts,high council and the law it self?in the afore mentioned verses from the bible.
Quote
I have already explained Matthew 5:17-19 but you are still confused. If you had read further down to verse 20, you would have seen this: "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." The Pharisees and teachers of the law were the closest anyone at the time could come to perfection in fulfilling the Law. Yet Jesus is saying one has to be even holier to get into God's kingdom! Why? To explain what He meant by that, Jesus went on to give a new interpretation of parts of the law (Matthew 5:21 and the rest of that chapter). Under this new light, it is easy to see that the Pharisees were obviously lacking.
The law Jesus was talking about was the law that God gave Moses, and the law by which the Jews of Jesus' time lived. They of course lived by the law as a means of obtaining righteousness. As such, Jesus talked to them about the commandments. If the Pharisees were not good enough for God's Kingdom, then no-one was, and all were subject to judgement. What judgement? God's judgement on all sinners as a result of sin: death. By this I don't just mean physical death, also spiritual death - eternal separation from God(Matthew 5: 22, the last sentence). So we accept Jesus' covering, the one man who never sinned, and offered to take our punishment out of love. Read again the second and third paragraphs of my first post, and note my narrative of Jesus and the adulterous woman later.
On monotheism: Your first quote cannot be found in Mark 13:21. Anyways, the trinity nature of God is a complicated matter that many Christians do not fully undestand. I myself cannot confess to understanding it completely. Sometimes Christians have to submit to God's sovereign nature and accept His Word at face value. Proverbs 25:2 says 'It is the glory of God to conceal a matter." However, you should read John 1. It starts by saying: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." 13 verses later, "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us" obviously referring to Jesus. In other words, Jesus is the Word and is God.
Finally, note Matthew 28:19 where Jesus was giving his disciples final instructions - 'Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..".
Finally on prayer: note how Jesus prayed in John 12:27, or in John 17:1. My friend, Jesus never prescribed a particular posture for prayer. You can pray while standing, sitting, even lying down, walking, any posture. See once again, my friend, freedom! Freedom under God's grace!
Quote
I have already explained Matthew 5:17-19 but you are still confused. If you had read further down to verse 20, you would have seen this: "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." The Pharisees and teachers of the law were the closest anyone at the time could come to perfection in fulfilling the Law. Yet Jesus is saying one has to be even holier to get into God's kingdom! Why? To explain what He meant by that, Jesus went on to give a new interpretation of parts of the law (Matthew 5:21 and the rest of that chapter). Under this new light, it is easy to see that the Pharisees were obviously lacking.
The law Jesus was talking about was the law that God gave Moses, and the law by which the Jews of Jesus' time lived. They of course lived by the law as a means of obtaining righteousness. As such, Jesus talked to them about the commandments. If the Pharisees were not good enough for God's Kingdom, then no-one was, and all were subject to judgement. What judgement? God's judgement on all sinners as a result of sin: death. By this I don't just mean physical death, also spiritual death - eternal separation from God(Matthew 5: 22, the last sentence). So we accept Jesus' covering, the one man who never sinned, and offered to take our punishment out of love. Read again the second and third paragraphs of my first post, and note my narrative of Jesus and the adulterous woman later.
On monotheism: Your first quote cannot be found in Mark 13:21. Anyways, the trinity nature of God is a complicated matter that many Christians do not fully undestand. I myself cannot confess to understanding it completely. Sometimes Christians have to submit to God's sovereign nature and accept His Word at face value. Proverbs 25:2 says 'It is the glory of God to conceal a matter." However, you should read John 1. It starts by saying: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." 13 verses later, "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us" obviously referring to Jesus. In other words, Jesus is the Word and is God.
Finally, note Matthew 28:19 where Jesus was giving his disciples final instructions - 'Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..".
Finally on prayer: note how Jesus prayed in John 12:27, or in John 17:1. My friend, Jesus never prescribed a particular posture for prayer. You can pray while standing, sitting, even lying down, walking, any posture. See once again, my friend, freedom! Freedom under God's grace!
Lionger,
Who told you am comfuse?am just waiting for you to say everything yourself and Alhamdulillah,the bond of contention here are the laws,if at all christians do not live under any law as you claim,Jesus wouldn't have taking his time interpreting the laws to the pharises and teachers of religious.....? and if there are no laws, you will reason with me that there wouldn't have been any teacher on religious law.or may be jesus was selective,laws for the jews and grace for the rest of his followers,just like our president,the laws of Almustapha's,Bamaiyi's are ?different from those of Ganiyu Adams,Omisore's. Sorry for the digression.
Would you also agree with me? if i put it to you that jesus was only sent to the people of israel (jews)not even jews of this time,as you correctly mentioned in your last post,jesus was talking about the laws of moses to the jews of his time.In case you don't agree with me,i will prove it to you in both the holy qur'an and your bible,This is what the bible says in matthew10:5-6. when jesus was giving instructions to his disciples and i quote,
Don't go to the gentiles or samaritans,but only to the people of israel-God's lost sheep.(matthew10:5-6) and the second example says and i quote,
I assure you,that when i,the son of man,sit upon my glorious throne in the kingdom,you who have been my followers will also sit on twelve thrones,judging the twelve tribes of israel.(matthew 19:28) and now coming to what the holy qur'an is saying and i quote,
And(remember) when Isa (jesus) son of Maryam(mary),said
'oh children of israel! i am the messenger of Allah un to you,'.(Qur'an 61:6) And read what the qur'an is saying about prophet muhammad (S.A.W.) who was sent to all mankind and i quote
Oh mankind,there has come to you the messenger with the truth from your lord.So believe in him,it is better for you.But if you disbelieve,then certainly to Allah belongs that is in the heavens and earth but Allah is All knowing,All wise.Qur'an4:170
So it is crystal clear that the christians of now adays are ?just claiming that jesus is for them at the sametime ignoring what their bible(s) are saying and yet they use to consider these bible(s) as their guide.
To the point i raised on monotheism,i wrongly quoted the verse, am really sorry for that, it is an oversight due to human nature,the verse i actually wanted to quote was in mark, chapter 12:29, let me quote it again,
Hear oh israel! the lord our God is one and only lord.(mark12:29).This verse further proves that jesus was sent only to the people of israel.
I didn't want to talk about trinity here because
am having the intention of treating it as a separate topic inshaallah, but let me highlight something for you and other christians,it is blasphemy or illogical if you don't believe it as a blasphemy, for us to entertain the idea that God almighty appeared on the earth in the form of humanbeing, even jesus christ, the one christians consider as part or equals to God,Express human wicknesses and God is above every imperfection.I can give only one example now,the rest will be given in my topic on trinity inshaAllah,The verse says and i quote,
At about three o'clock,jesus called with a loud voice,eli,eli,lema sabachthani? meaning,my God,my God,why have you foresaken me?(matthew 27:46)
Lionger,it is now left for you and other christians, to reason well,the above verse vividly shows that jesus is not God,if at all he is (waiyyazhubillah) can God be crying for help?
On prayers,i don't know if you can help me indicate where jesus used musical instruments while worshiping? orwhere he was dancing and dancing as a form of worship? and by the way how can God the creator of both the heavens, earths and what is between them, pray?to whom does he refer to while praying?and what is he going to pray for?These are questions, that are begging for answers from those who consider jesus to be their God almighty.Don't tell me it's beyond human comprehension as christians resort to, as an escape route.
QuoteExcelent work barde,but look at the flock that will litsen to you first.
you cant start playing arabian music in front of a chinese audience.
what i am trying to say is your work was beautiful.
God knows where u get yur information but i would like to go through them, is there any site regarding this stuff? hope so.
hmmmmmm
but barde should we really try to teach christians through thier own book?? reflecting things in the Holy Qur'an?
I guess thats highly dangerous because as we know the Bible is highly adulterated. They have the new version, old version, new testament old testament, bla bla bla they have mixed up thier religion so much that by the time we qoute something from one book, another has a contradicting version.
So at-least we got our own book.
As for the eskimo of ng. man where are the snow deserts were u are supposed to live?
Qur'an has a whole lot of information, But things that miss out which we would want to know and are not available or too hard to understand are simplified in the Hadiths. Better grab one of these imam's books . Shafi'i,Hanafi,Hambali or my favorite... Muwatta Imam Malik.
Yes, its very piuos of you to read the Qur'an with translation but its better you go step wise. Try to understand your religion first. What is it that we ought to do and what not.
i will wait for a positive or negative reply.
Ali Hamza
Assalamualaikum,
Al Hamza,thanx for the observation,but if you look at how prophet muhammad(S.A.W.)started propagating islam in mecca,a city that was full of non muslims,you will agree with me that there is no harm in using what they believe to disprove them,remember prophet Ibrahim, when he destroyed all their idoils except one,i think their leader and referred ?the idolators to the leader when they were asking him who destroyed their Gods?he said they should ask the idoil, their response was that the idoil does not hear them,he then asked why are they worshipping something that does hear talkless of helping them? prophet Ibrahim used what they believed ?against them,i don't think it is wrong quoting from the bible as i told Amin, you can hadly convince a christian without using the bible cose he does not believe in the qur'an,any way that's my own perception of the whole thing.
I don't know wheather there is any website pertaining to it.I have a bible which i read quite often,challenges from my christian freinds made me to develop interest in comparative religion,i believe you know how they behave these days.They dont seems to know that the bible is adulterated until you highlight it to them,so if you sit down and fold your arms who will do that?and i believe you know how the prophet (S.A.W)
conducted his life with all the rigorous of Da'awah.
Thanx once more,the door is always open for comments and observations.
Bissalam,
wow barde,
i am highly delighted to know there are muslims out there today like you.
Alhamdulillah,
hope i get the smae iman and driving force to do such great work.
oh lionger, u got a guy to deal with!
wow. I'll have to be visiting this forum more often to keep up with the 'barrage'. Abeg slow down, if not I will write a book here. Where are you running to? ;D
Firstly, the ever-lingering question on women. Instead of picking and isolating verses, read that whole passage - I Corinthians 11:2-10, and note verse 5: "And every woman who prays or prohesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head." That settles the fact that the instructions concerned prayer. I did not say it, the Bible did. And u may have slightly misquoted I Cor 11:10 "For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head." Does it mean the angels r only there when we are praying? Maybe it does, I don't know - but what does it matter? But Jesus promised, 'I will be with you always, even to the end of the age," (Matthew 28:20) and that's what counts.
On women speaking in church: I have already explained this, did you not read it? And note that the passage we have just discussed (I Cor. 2:2-10) seems to support the notion that women should speak in church, since God can speak through them (prophecy). If God really wanted women to keep quiet in church, then He would ?not give them His Spirit.
Quote
...But i say if you are angry with someone,you are subject to judgement,if you call someone idiot,you are in danger of being brought before the high council and if you curse someone you are in danger of the fires of hell"(matthew5:22).
"Come to terms quickly with your enemy before it is too late and you are dragged in to court,handed to an officer and thrown to jail"(matthew5:25)...
"Do for others what you would like them to do for you,this is the summary of the law and prophets"(matthew 7:12)
Now,if at all christians do not live under any law,what brought the issue of courts,high council and the law it self?
Ask yourself: Who was Jesus talking to in Matthew 5? Were the Jews Christians? If they were already Christians, then of what use was Jesus' coming to earth? As I said earlier, the word, 'Christian' means 'Christ-like'. If the Jews were already Christ-like, then y did Jesus come? No, like I said b4, the Jews, Pharisees and teachers of the law, lived under the law, and thus Jesus spoke to them of the law. But though the Pharisees preached it, they themselves also broke it, and their hearts were far from God. Jesus says this in Matthew 23.
Once again, I think you slightly misquoted Matthew 5:25-"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison."
Where did the issue of courts and high councils come from? Was that in the law God gave Moses? It was an invention of men; and those Jesus was talking about were probably the ones set up by the Romans. What Jesus said in that verse was simply common sense and wisdom: Isn't it better for you to settle an argument outside the court, instead of risking inprisonment?
Even today we have laws, constitution and courts; am I saying Christians do not abide by those? Certainly not, in fact, the Bible instructs us to do so. But God says good deeds, keeping the law, and morals are worthless in itself, unless accompanied by the righteousness that comes by faith - faith in Jesus. I will say a few more things of this righteousness, for many of the questions you are asking leads me in that direction.
And by the way, God is the author of confusion? The Bible says this: "For God is not the author of confusion but of peace" I Corinthans 14:33.
Quoteor may be jesus was selective,laws for the jews and grace for the rest of his followers..
You have partially hit a truth here. The law is for those unto whom it was written. Romans 3:19 says - "Now we know that what the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable before God." Note verse 20: "Therefore no-one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law;rather, through the law we became conscious of sin."
In fact, let's also read Romans 2:12,14-15 : "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law... Indeed, when the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now defending them."
Therefore if a Christian woman believes it is wrong for her to wear trousers or keep her hair uncovered in public, she should not do so. If a Christian believes eating animals is wrong, he should not eat it. For if he does, his conscience accuses him, as it is not done in faith. Thus he is condemned while he does it, cuz the Bible says that everything that is not done by faith is sin. (Romans 14:23). You may want to read the rest of that chapter.
On Jesus being sent to the Jews only: yes indeed he went to the Jews, because they had received the Promise God gave Abraham, which is the same Promise given through the Prophets: Christ. However, the Scriptures forsaw that God would justify the non-Jews by faith, because Isaiah the Prophet declares in Isaiah 11:10, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him." This is what God meant when he said to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you" (Genesis 12:3, 18:18, and 22:18). As such, Jesus says after His resurrection, in Matthew 28:19: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..". Jesus is as much our Savior as He is the Savior of the Jews. He is the savior of all who believe.
On monotheism. Like I said b4, read John 1. And also, Philippians 2:6-11, in which the Bible says this concerning Christ:
"Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death - even death on a cross!
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
That He, though being God, prayed all the same to the Father, shows his humble nature, and the sort of example he set for us.
Full stop. Christians believe this word as true, despite all manly wisdom which points to the contrary, and thus are righteous in God's sight. Just as Abraham believed against all reasonable doubt God's promise of a son, and thus was also counted as righteous and became heir to the Promise. (Gen 15:6).
The explanation for Matthew 27:46 is that Jesus was experiencing total separation from God. Why? Because the sin of the whole world was on Him, and God saw that and turned away. What He experienced was our punishment for sin - death, not just physical death, but spiritual death - separation from God. Even for Jesus, God in human form, it was a terrible thing, how much more would it be for us!
On praise and worship, read the Psalms, Specifically, Psalm 150. In fact God even says we should make a joyful noise unto Him! (Psalm 95:1-2, Psalm 98:4, NKJV). We believe that if we praise God with all our heart and abilities, that we will enter God's presence and He will fight our battles. In all we do, we do to God's glory - when we sing, we sing to God, when we clap our hands and dance, we do it to God, who sees it and is glorified. If people can sing, dance and use musical instruments to please men and even the devil - ?then how much more will God be glorified if we use those musical and dancing gifts to praise Him. So don't condemn those Christians u see dancing and playing instruments - they do it to God, and God is there within their midst. And in God's presence, there is joy. Psalm 16:11.
Quotewow barde,
i am highly delighted to know there are muslims out there today like you.
Alhamdulillah,
hope i get the smae iman and driving force to do such great work.
oh lionger, u got a guy to deal with!
Al Hamza,thank you very much but you know it's not my making,the only thing we need is prayers for Allah to give us more courage to keep up the challenges.Allah ya taimakemu ya kuma kara mana basira,Amin .
Ma'assalam.
Barde.
Quotewow. I'll have to be visiting this forum more often to keep up with the 'barrage'. Abeg slow down, if not I will write a book here. Where are you running to? ;D
Firstly, the ever-lingering question on women. Instead of picking and isolating verses, read that whole passage - I Corinthians 11:2-10, and note verse 5: "And every woman who prays or prohesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head." That settles the fact that the instructions concerned prayer. I did not say it, the Bible did. And u may have slightly misquoted I Cor 11:10 "For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head." Does it mean the angels r only there when we are praying? Maybe it does, I don't know - but what does it matter? But Jesus promised, 'I will be with you always, even to the end of the age," (Matthew 28:20) and that's what counts.
On women speaking in church: I have already explained this, did you not read it? And note that the passage we have just discussed (I Cor. 2:2-10) seems to support the notion that women should speak in church, since God can speak through them (prophecy). If God really wanted women to keep quiet in church, then He would ?not give them His Spirit.
Ask yourself: Who was Jesus talking to in Matthew 5? Were the Jews Christians? If they were already Christians, then of what use was Jesus' coming to earth? As I said earlier, the word, 'Christian' means 'Christ-like'. If the Jews were already Christ-like, then y did Jesus come? No, like I said b4, the Jews, Pharisees and teachers of the law, lived under the law, and thus Jesus spoke to them of the law. But though the Pharisees preached it, they themselves also broke it, and their hearts were far from God. Jesus says this in Matthew 23.
Once again, I think you slightly misquoted Matthew 5:25-"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison."
Where did the issue of courts and high councils come from? Was that in the law God gave Moses? It was an invention of men; and those Jesus was talking about were probably the ones set up by the Romans. What Jesus said in that verse was simply common sense and wisdom: Isn't it better for you to settle an argument outside the court, instead of risking inprisonment?
Even today we have laws, constitution and courts; am I saying Christians do not abide by those? Certainly not, in fact, the Bible instructs us to do so. But God says good deeds, keeping the law, and morals are worthless in itself, unless accompanied by the righteousness that comes by faith - faith in Jesus. I will say a few more things of this righteousness, for many of the questions you are asking leads me in that direction.
And by the way, God is the author of confusion? The Bible says this: "For God is not the author of confusion but of peace" I Corinthans 14:33.
You have partially hit a truth here. The law is for those unto whom it was written. Romans 3:19 says - "Now we know that what the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable before God." Note verse 20: "Therefore no-one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law;rather, through the law we became conscious of sin."
In fact, let's also read Romans 2:12,14-15 : "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law... Indeed, when the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now defending them."
Therefore if a Christian woman believes it is wrong for her to wear trousers or keep her hair uncovered in public, she should not do so. If a Christian believes eating animals is wrong, he should not eat it. For if he does, his conscience accuses him, as it is not done in faith. Thus he is condemned while he does it, cuz the Bible says that everything that is not done by faith is sin. (Romans 14:23). You may want to read the rest of that chapter.
On Jesus being sent to the Jews only: yes indeed he went to the Jews, because they had received the Promise God gave Abraham, which is the same Promise given through the Prophets: Christ. However, the Scriptures forsaw that God would justify the non-Jews by faith, because Isaiah the Prophet declares in Isaiah 11:10, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him." This is what God meant when he said to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you" (Genesis 12:3, 18:18, and 22:18). As such, Jesus says after His resurrection, in Matthew 28:19: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..". Jesus is as much our Savior as He is the Savior of the Jews. He is the savior of all who believe.
On monotheism. Like I said b4, read John 1. And also, Philippians 2:6-11, in which the Bible says this concerning Christ:
"Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death - even death on a cross!
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
That He, though being God, prayed all the same to the Father, shows his humble nature, and the sort of example he set for us.
Full stop. Christians believe this word as true, despite all manly wisdom which points to the contrary, and thus are righteous in God's sight. Just as Abraham believed against all reasonable doubt God's promise of a son, and thus was also counted as righteous and became heir to the Promise. (Gen 15:6).
The explanation for Matthew 27:46 is that Jesus was experiencing total separation from God. Why? Because the sin of the whole world was on Him, and God saw that and turned away. What He experienced was our punishment for sin - death, not just physical death, but spiritual death - separation from God. Even for Jesus, God in human form, it was a terrible thing, how much more would it be for us!
On praise and worship, read the Psalms, Specifically, Psalm 150. In fact God even says we should make a joyful noise unto Him! (Psalm 95:1-2, Psalm 98:4, NKJV). We believe that if we praise God with all our heart and abilities, that we will enter God's presence and He will fight our battles. In all we do, we do to God's glory - when we sing, we sing to God, when we clap our hands and dance, we do it to God, who sees it and is glorified. If people can sing, dance and use musical instruments to please men and even the devil - ?then how much more will God be glorified if we use those musical and dancing gifts to praise Him. So don't condemn those Christians u see dancing and playing instruments - they do it to God, and God is there within their midst. And in God's presence, there is joy. Psalm 16:11.
Lionger,am i running?no!i don't think so, am still warming up. I will be glad if you can write the book and give me the privelege to review it.
In one of your responses,you said the dress code for women ?mentioned in the bible(1 crintians 11:6 and 10) is applied only when they are worshipping/praying,i will be glad if you can tell us how a woman should dress in work place,on the streets or home.Mind you jesus is always with you as you quoted.(matthew 28:20)
On women speaking in the church,will you agree with me that the verses are contradictory?since some verses are saying they should not(1corintians 14:34-35)while others are saying they should(acts21:9).How can you reconcile between the two verses? i can only agree with you, if one of the verses is saying they should speak and the other is teaching them how to do it.
Lionger,it seems you don't understand the questions i asked ?about law,courts,and high council.Let me just put it this way, Why do you find the verses that mentioned law,courts,high council,in the bible? we all know ?they are related to something......,rules of conduct by an organised community as upheld by the authority.If at all christians do not live under any law, as they are claiming,then permit me to suggest that matthew 5:17-48 be expunge entirely from the bible since it is irrelevant to the present day christians.Do you agree with my suggestion or not.
I can't understand what you wrote about commiting a sin,do you mean a christian is at liberty to indulge in anything so far he does not believe what he is doing is a sin?does it apply to everything or it is only restricted to eating,women wearing trousers? if one,for example,commit an adultery,has he done anything wrong?if he does not believe is a sin?i need some more explanations please.
It is stated in John 1-10:11 and i quote.
But although the world was made through him,the world didn't recognise him when he came, even in his own land among his own people,he was not accepted .(john 1-10:11).
Who are his people?i have already proved to you both qur'anicallyand biblically who the people of jesus are,(mark 12:29 and matthew 10:5-6)and we all know who the people of israel are.if at all jesus was sent to all nations as mentioned in matthew28:19,then what can you say about the two verses i mentioned above and how can you reconcile the two verses?if you didn't reconcile them, i don't have any alternative than to add them to my catalogue.
On monotheism,Lionger,do you know the meaning of God?you don't seems to,wait a minute,you mean God prayed to the father?
for clearity,let me just summarise the meaning of God,prayer and Father, so that at the end, we will see if they are compatible or not.
God is the creator and ruler of the universe.
Father is a male parent
Prayer is to ask,supplicate e.t.c.
Now to the point,You said jesus being God,he prayed all the same to the father,Kai, i don't think they compatible,do you think so?How can the creator and ruler of the universe supplicate and God having a male parent? One can only ask if he is not in full control of the things he is asking.Unless you don't agree with my definations.
You said jesus was experiencing total separation from God.At this point,i will say Alhamdulillah,do you realise what you are saying?please try and reason well before writing,Does make any sense to you?when you say God is experiencing separation from God and how can God be subjected to punishment?remember the defination of God.
and how can the sin of the whole world be on jesus,when the bible says in deuteronomy24:16 and i quote
The fathers shall not be put to death for their children or shall the children be put to death for their fathers,every man shall be put to death for his own sin(deutronomy24:16)
and you said jesus your father,died for your sins when the bible is saying something contrary.Barde and the rest of kanoonliners needs clarifications.
I have gone through all the verses in the bible that talked about worshipping,i haven't seen where jesus said, am the lord,worship me by dancing and clapping,will be happy if you can tell me please help.
1 corintians chapter 4,talked about an orderly worship.Even though the mode of the worshipping is entirely different but i believe you will have an idea of an orderly worship,when you visit a muslim freind and watch him/her worshipping, don't even bother asking what he/she is saying.
I will rest my case here,till you write.
BARDE,
How should a woman dress when not in the church? A woman (and a man, this is not a sexist thing) should dress in accordance of these verses, one of which I quoted earlier: "Everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial," (I Corinthians 6:12) and Romans 14:16 - "Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil." When you put your mind to it, what do u come up with?
On women speaking in church: The instruction keeping women silent in church was in accordance with cultural sensibilities and thus for peace in the church (note Romans 14:16). However, 'where the Spirit of God is, there is freedom' (ii Cor. 3:17). Thus women who are filled with God's Spirit have the freedom to do what the Spirit leads them to do, irrespective of all cultural boundaries.
On the law/high courts: Haha I don't think you understand me either. Replying what you just said would be repitition of what I said earlier, maybe we should drop the subject altogether.
On sin: Let's read the verse in question, Romans 14:23, carefully: "And everythign which does not come from faith is sin." Note that it did not say, "Sin is everything that is not done by faith". Thus the converse is not true. Rather, in addition to the rest of what God calls sin, which includes adultery, is Romans 14:23. Thus a christian who commits adultery will be convicted in his mind by the Holy Spirit, because it is not in accordance with the Word of God.
On Jesus' role: Likewise, I have proved that He was sent to save not just the Jews, but the whole world through His sacrifice. The instructions He gave in Matthew 10:5-6 was because it was not yet time for the Gentiles. Proof: John 12: 20-26. Some Greeks asked the disciple Philip if they could speak to Jesus. When Jesus was informed, he said this: "The time has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. I tell you the truth, unless the a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds." Jesus was talking of his death! Why, because it was by His death that the Greeks and other Gentiles would received God's righteousness if they believed.
Monotheism.
Firstly, read that passage I quoted from Philippians. You have a hard time comprehending Jesus as God, simply because of His humility on earth. Phillipians 2:6-11 tells us that though Jesus was God, He reduced himself to man, and became a servant. For this reason, we see Him praying to God the Father, as a ?sign of his servant nature,
his humility. The passage goes on to say that He became obedient to death - even a disgraceful and horribly painful death on a cross! How can God die? Because He humbled himself to become man. Why? For our sake. Read what Jesus said in Matthew 26:53-54, when Peter tried to defend him against ?His apprehenders: "Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scripture be fulfilled that say it must happen this way?"
Secondly, do not try to comprehend the Father-Son relationship as if it were a biological matter. That is incorrect. If it was biology, then who is the mother of the Son? Shouldn't there be a God the Mother? Or will you say cloning?(laugh ?;D). No, the Father-Son relationship is based on a much higher understanding than our worldly wisdom. It is not possible to fully understand the nature of God with our minds. He is from everlasting to everlasting; He exists in a world of timelessness; can you understand that?
Thirdly, since you persist, I will confuse this definition of God, with verses in the Bible.
1)God - the creator of the universe. Once again read John 1. It proves that Jesus was there in the beginning, and that thru him everything was made (John 1:3).
2)As proof of Christianity's monotheism, Jesus said to the Jews in John 10:30, "I and the Father are one."
At this, the Jews accused him of blasphemy and wanted to stone Him. He replied, in verse 34,"Is it not written in your law, 'I have said that you are gods?'" Is it too much to say that Jesus is God, when in fact the scriptures call us gods?
3) After the fall of Adam and Eve through sin, God said in Genesis 3:22, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil." Why did God use the word 'us' if he was just 'one' as the verses you have brought up seem to suggest?
Finally, on the incredulity of the whole world's sin on Jesus: Why not? Note the third from last paragraph of my first post. If the whole world is condemned to death by the sin of one man, Adam, then why can't the whole world be saved thru the grace of one man, Jesus Christ? Just as one act of disobedience brought condemnation for all mankind, so also one act of obedience brought righteousness and life for all mankind. The premise for this argument is in Romans 5:12-19.
lionger lionger,
donot refuse to see the truth cos of yur hatred,
even if a hindu or a person that knows nothing about Islam and Christianity comes upon what you have written..... he'd simply laugh his head off,
oh! how i wish you would just leave the white man's slavery for some minutes to judge the truth for yurself.
hey guys! guess what though its old news
"the church will soon begin marrying gay couples"
lionger i hope you'd do something to stop it (thats if u aint a ***) yukh!
Assalamu alaikum;
al_hamza,
While everyone got the right to make his or her own point, your respond to this topic is really getting out of order. Besides, this not the way to have somebody be convinced of your point of view. This topic, started by BARDE on 05/24/03 has already attracted about 150 views. I think this is because of the matured and intellectual way the debate is going on. So please do not try to make it into an abusive debate.
QuoteBARDE,
How should a woman dress when not in the church? A woman (and a man, this is not a sexist thing) should dress in accordance of these verses, one of which I quoted earlier: "Everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial," (I Corinthians 6:12) and Romans 14:16 - "Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil." When you put your mind to it, what do u come up with?
On women speaking in church: The instruction keeping women silent in church was in accordance with cultural sensibilities and thus for peace in the church (note Romans 14:16). However, 'where the Spirit of God is, there is freedom' (ii Cor. 3:17). Thus women who are filled with God's Spirit have the freedom to do what the Spirit leads them to do, irrespective of all cultural boundaries.
On the law/high courts: Haha I don't think you understand me either. Replying what you just said would be repitition of what I said earlier, maybe we should drop the subject altogether.
On sin: Let's read the verse in question, Romans 14:23, carefully: "And everythign which does not come from faith is sin." Note that it did not say, "Sin is everything that is not done by faith". Thus the converse is not true. Rather, in addition to the rest of what God calls sin, which includes adultery, is Romans 14:23. Thus a christian who commits adultery will be convicted in his mind by the Holy Spirit, because it is not in accordance with the Word of God.
On Jesus' role: Likewise, I have proved that He was sent to save not just the Jews, but the whole world through His sacrifice. The instructions He gave in Matthew 10:5-6 was because it was not yet time for the Gentiles. Proof: John 12: 20-26. Some Greeks asked the disciple Philip if they could speak to Jesus. When Jesus was informed, he said this: "The time has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. I tell you the truth, unless the a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds." Jesus was talking of his death! Why, because it was by His death that the Greeks and other Gentiles would received God's righteousness if they believed.
Monotheism.
Firstly, read that passage I quoted from Philippians. You have a hard time comprehending Jesus as God, simply because of His humility on earth. Phillipians 2:6-11 tells us that though Jesus was God, He reduced himself to man, and became a servant. For this reason, we see Him praying to God the Father, as a ?sign of his servant nature,
his humility. The passage goes on to say that He became obedient to death - even a disgraceful and horribly painful death on a cross! How can God die? Because He humbled himself to become man. Why? For our sake. Read what Jesus said in Matthew 26:53-54, when Peter tried to defend him against ?His apprehenders: "Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scripture be fulfilled that say it must happen this way?"
Secondly, do not try to comprehend the Father-Son relationship as if it were a biological matter. That is incorrect. If it was biology, then who is the mother of the Son? Shouldn't there be a God the Mother? Or will you say cloning?(laugh ?;D). No, the Father-Son relationship is based on a much higher understanding than our worldly wisdom. It is not possible to fully understand the nature of God with our minds. He is from everlasting to everlasting; He exists in a world of timelessness; can you understand that?
Thirdly, since you persist, I will confuse this definition of God, with verses in the Bible.
1)God - the creator of the universe. Once again read John 1. It proves that Jesus was there in the beginning, and that thru him everything was made (John 1:3).
2)As proof of Christianity's monotheism, Jesus said to the Jews in John 10:30, "I and the Father are one."
At this, the Jews accused him of blasphemy and wanted to stone Him. He replied, in verse 34,"Is it not written in your law, 'I have said that you are gods?'" Is it too much to say that Jesus is God, when in fact the scriptures call us gods?
3) After the fall of Adam and Eve through sin, God said in Genesis 3:22, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil." Why did God use the word 'us' if he was just 'one' as the verses you have brought up seem to suggest?
Finally, on the incredulity of the whole world's sin on Jesus: Why not? Note the third from last paragraph of my first post. If the whole world is condemned to death by the sin of one man, Adam, then why can't the whole world be saved thru the grace of one man, Jesus Christ? Just as one act of disobedience brought condemnation for all mankind, so also one act of obedience brought righteousness and life for all mankind. The premise for this argument is in Romans 5:12-19.
Lionger,
Am not suprise with your replies, i know that's how it will end, thank God this topic attracted ?more than 150 views, they will judge between the truth and false. I want to remaind you that am not quoting from the holy qur'an,all the verses i quoted are there in the bible, does that means you are disproving your bible?
Anyway,am leaving you with a story of jesus and a woman,mentioned in matthew 20:20-22.You go and scrutinize it very well, may be the story will help you find out the true position of jesus, son of Mary.
The mother of james and john,the sons of zebedee,came to jesus with her sons.She knelt respectively to ask a favour.Jesus asked,what is your request?she replied,In your kingdom,will you let my two sons sit in places of honour next to you?,one at your right and the other at your left?jesus told them,You don't know what you are asking!are you ready to drink from the bitter cup of sorrow i am about to drink?oh,yes they replied,we are able!You will indeed drink from it,he told them.But i have no right to say who will sit on the thrones next to me.My father has prepared those places for the ones he has choosen.(matthew 20:20-22).
I want you to really concentrate on where jesus told the woman that he has no right to give anybody the privelege of sitting next to him in the kingdom,that means he is not in control. so the earlier you realise the truth the better for you.Thank you.
See you in my next topic, coming soon inshaAllah.
BARDE,
Thank you for your politeness and patience in putting up with me during this discussion. I didn't notice this thread had attracted so many viewers; so I shall, after responding first to your questions, say a few things to the others.
No, I am not disproving the Bible, but just as iron sharpens iron, scripture sharpens scripture. Each verse compensates and checks the other. For example, note the temptation of Jesus by the devil, in Matthew 4:5-7 :
"Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple."If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:
?'He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'"
Jesus answered him, "It is also written, "Do not put the Lord your God to the test.""
The verse the devil quoted is in Psalm 91: 11,12, and Jesus' reply is in Deuteronomy 6:16. Thus the Bible is not a catalogue of contradictions by which it is impossible to live. On the contrary, "all Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.." (II Timothy 3:16).
On the passage you mentioned: In addition, Jesus also said that no-one in heaven, not even Himself, knows the time of His Second coming, except God the Father. That does not mean Jesus is not God, John 1 testifies to the contrary. Rather, that He, though in very nature God, still submits Himself to the will of God the Father, from whom all things come. If I say, based on His humility, that Jesus is not God, and therefore should not be worshipped, then I am in error, for Matthew 28:17 tells us that after His ressurection, the disciples recognised and worshipped Him. Yet some still doubted.
Also,
QuoteThe fathers shall not be put to death for their children or shall the children be put to death for their fathers,every man shall be put to death for his own sin(deutronomy24:16) ... and you said jesus your father,died for your sins when the bible is saying something contrary.Barde and the rest of kanoonliners needs clarifications.
But Jesus never sinned; so when He died, whose sin was He dying for? For my sin and the world's.
FINAL COMMENTS
My first post here is a summary of the message Christians believe. I know that much of what I have said here sound crazy and stupid; some of the questions BARDE has asked are questions that I and other Christians have asked while studying the Bible. Infact you are right, what I believe is foolish. Yet it is also God's wisdom, for the Bible says in I Cor. 1:18 that "the message of the cross is foolishness to the world, but to those who are saved it is the power of God." And in verse 21 the Bible tells us that 'God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe." Finallly verse 27: "But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of this world to shame the strong."
Since the beginning of time, God has always chosen the small, humble and despised things of this world over the strong and proud things. He called Abraham in his old age to leave everything he knew and go on a senseless journey, and promised him a son though his wife Sarah was barren. He chose Moses, whom the Bible described as "a humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth."(Numbers 12:3). And finally He chose David, the last of eight sons and a shepherd boy from Bethlehem, to kill the giant Goliath and to rule Israel. Accordingly, the Bible says in Proverbs 3:34, that "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble."
For this reason Jesus tells his disciples in Matthew 18:3 that unless they become like little children, they will never enter God's kingdom. In Luke 14:11 He says, "Everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. In fact, the 'sequel' to the story Barde quoted from Matthew 20 shows this. The other disciples were angry with James and John for their selfish request. But Jesus called them together and said, "Instead, whoever wants to be great among you must first become your servant, and whoever wants to be first should first become your slave - just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." Matthew 20:26-28.
Indeed in nature, Jesus himself was humble. He was not born into nobility (except in the sense that He was of David's lineage), or even in a hospital, but in a manger, from which animals eat. He did not choose his disciples from the Pharisees or the teachers of the law, but from fishermen and tax collectors - lowly, uneducated men. And he socialized and ate with the 'sinners' of the day. In fact, He told the Pharisees in Matthew 21:31 that the tax collectors and prostitutes were entering God's kingdom ahead of them. And He even humbled himself to death, and not a peaceful death on a bed, but a shameful death on the cross! But after this humiliation, He rose again and was exalted to the right hand of God the Father, true to his word in Luke 14:11.
Therefore we Christians throw away our own wisdom and humbling ourselves to the foolish gospel of Jesus Christ. We weaken ourselves so that God may be strong in us, for He says in II Corinthians 12:9,"My strength is made perfect in weakness." And we die to ourselves and to sin everyday so that Christ might live in us, just as Christ died so that we might live to God.
Thank you once again, BARDE. Yes, I will see you again in your next thread. Others are free to even PM me on questions ?regarding the Christian faith, and I will be more than happy to give a fitting answer by God's grace.
May God bless us all. Amen.
Interesting discussion,
This discourse and its kind always prove to be educative to readers. Yes, I found it so way back my adolescent years when I decided to study the the eight world most famous religions. I could see even then that the areas of disagreement between Christians and Muslim are five:
1. The Divinity of Christ
2. His Divine Sonship
3. Original Sin and Blood Atonement
4. Trinity
5. And Authenticity and Reliability of Bible as The Word
of God
I think it will be well for me to contribute if the next series of discourse will take each and every one of the above themes and explore in the light of the scriptures. I think that will give us a sort of a defined direction and make our motives more clear. What I have read above seem to have had every thing chunked in the same breath. But all d same BARDE and lionger Bravo!!!
Im sorry pls let me make some clarification. Christians does not in any way mean Christ-like because the first word Christians appeared first in Christianity according Luke the writer of Acts of the Apostles in Antioch where the disciples were first called Christians.
QuoteInteresting discussion,
This discourse and its kind always prove to be educative to readers. Yes, ?I found it so way back my adolescent years when I decided to study the the eight world most famous religions. I could see even then that the areas of ?disagreement between Christians and Muslim are five:
1. ? The Divinity of Christ
2. ? His Divine Sonship
3. ? Original Sin and Blood Atonement
4. ? Trinity
5. ? And Authenticity and Reliability of Bible as The Word ?
? ? of ?God
I think it will be well for me to contribute if the next series of discourse will take each and every one of the ?above themes and explore in the light of the scriptures. I think that will give us a sort of a defined direction and make our motives more clear. What I have read above seem to have had every thing chunked in the same breath. But all d same BARDE and lionger Bravo!!!
Im sorry pls let me make some clarification. Christians does not in any way mean Christ-like because the first word Christians appeared first in Christianity according Luke the writer of Acts of the Apostles in Antioch where the disciples were first called Christians.
Assalamualaikum,
Mallam Waziri,Thank you for the observation,If you can observe i started with Shariah in the bible,but along the way my freind lionger diverted and i had to reply her.Just watch out for my next topic coming soon inshaAllah.