SHARIAH IN THE BIBLE

[al_hamza]

wow barde,
i am highly delighted to know there are muslims out there today like you.
Alhamdulillah,
hope i get the smae iman and driving force to do such great work.
oh lionger, u got a guy to deal with!

[lionger]

wow. I'll have to be visiting this forum more often to keep up with the 'barrage'. Abeg slow down, if not I will write a book here. Where are you running to? ;D

Firstly, the ever-lingering question on women. Instead of picking and isolating verses, read that whole passage - I Corinthians 11:2-10, and note verse 5: "And every woman who prays or prohesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head." That settles the fact that the instructions concerned prayer. I did not say it, the Bible did. And u may have slightly misquoted I Cor 11:10 "For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head." Does it mean the angels r only there when we are praying? Maybe it does, I don't know - but what does it matter? But Jesus promised, 'I will be with you always, even to the end of the age," (Matthew 28:20) and that's what counts.

On women speaking in church: I have already explained this, did you not read it? And note that the passage we have just discussed (I Cor. 2:2-10) seems to support the notion that women should speak in church, since God can speak through them (prophecy). If God really wanted women to keep quiet in church, then He would ?not give them His Spirit.

...But i say if you are angry with someone,you are subject to judgement,if you call someone idiot,you are in danger of being brought before the high council and if you curse someone you are in danger of the fires of hell"(matthew5:22).
"Come to terms quickly with your enemy before it is too late and you are dragged in to court,handed to an officer and thrown to jail"(matthew5:25)...
"Do for others what you would like them to do for you,this is the summary of the law and prophets"(matthew 7:12)

Now,if at all christians do not live under any law,what brought the issue of courts,high council and the law it self?

Ask yourself: Who was Jesus talking to in Matthew 5? Were the Jews Christians? If they were already Christians, then of what use was Jesus' coming to earth? As I said earlier, the word, 'Christian' means 'Christ-like'. If the Jews were already Christ-like, then y did Jesus come? No, like I said b4, the Jews, Pharisees and teachers of the law, lived under the law, and thus Jesus spoke to them of the law. But though the Pharisees preached it, they themselves also broke it, and their hearts were far from God. Jesus says this in Matthew 23.

Once again, I think you slightly misquoted Matthew 5:25-"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison."

Where did the issue of courts and high councils come from? Was that in the law God gave Moses? It was an invention of men; and those Jesus was talking about were probably the ones set up by the Romans. What Jesus said in that verse was simply common sense and wisdom: Isn't it better for you to settle an argument outside the court, instead of risking inprisonment?

Even today we have laws, constitution and courts; am I saying Christians do not abide by those? Certainly not, in fact, the Bible instructs us to do so. But God says good deeds, keeping the law, and morals are worthless in itself, unless accompanied by the righteousness that comes by faith - faith in Jesus. I will say a few more things of this righteousness, for many of the questions you are asking leads me in that direction.

And by the way, God is the author of confusion? The Bible says this: "For God is not the author of confusion but of peace" I Corinthans 14:33.

or may be jesus was selective,laws for the jews and grace for the rest of his followers..

You have partially hit a truth here. The law is for those unto whom it was written. Romans 3:19 says - "Now we know that what the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable before God." Note verse 20: "Therefore no-one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law;rather, through the law we became conscious of sin."

In fact, let's also read Romans 2:12,14-15 : "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law... Indeed, when the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now defending them."

Therefore if a Christian woman believes it is wrong for her to wear trousers or keep her hair uncovered in public, she should not do so. If a Christian believes eating animals is wrong, he should not eat it. For if he does, his conscience accuses him, as it is not done in faith. Thus he is condemned while he does it, cuz the Bible says that everything that is not done by faith is sin. (Romans 14:23). You may want to read the rest of that chapter.

On Jesus being sent to the Jews only: yes indeed he went to the Jews, because they had received the Promise God gave Abraham, which is the same Promise given through the Prophets: Christ. However, the Scriptures forsaw that God would justify the non-Jews by faith, because Isaiah the Prophet declares in Isaiah 11:10, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him." This is what God meant when he said to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you" (Genesis 12:3, 18:18, and 22:18). As such, Jesus says after His resurrection, in Matthew 28:19: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..". Jesus is as much our Savior as He is the Savior of the Jews. He is the savior of all who believe.

On monotheism. Like I said b4, read John 1. And also, Philippians 2:6-11, in which the Bible says this concerning Christ:

"Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death - even death on a cross!
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

That He, though being God, prayed all the same to the Father, shows his humble nature, and the sort of example he set for us.

Full stop. Christians believe this word as true, despite all manly wisdom which points to the contrary, and thus are righteous in God's sight. Just as Abraham believed against all reasonable doubt God's promise of a son, and thus was also counted as righteous and became heir to the Promise. (Gen 15:6).

The explanation for Matthew 27:46 is that Jesus was experiencing total separation from God. Why? Because the sin of the whole world was on Him, and God saw that and turned away. What He experienced was our punishment for sin - death, not just physical death, but spiritual death - separation from God. Even for Jesus, God in human form, it was a terrible thing, how much more would it be for us!

On praise and worship, read the Psalms, Specifically, Psalm 150. In fact God even says we should make a joyful noise unto Him! (Psalm 95:1-2, Psalm 98:4, NKJV). We believe that if we praise God with all our heart and abilities, that we will enter God's presence and He will fight our battles. In all we do, we do to God's glory - when we sing, we sing to God, when we clap our hands and dance, we do it to God, who sees it and is glorified. If people can sing, dance and use musical instruments to please men and even the devil - ?then how much more will God be glorified if we use those musical and dancing gifts to praise Him. So don't condemn those Christians u see dancing and playing instruments - they do it to God, and God is there within their midst. And in God's presence, there is joy. Psalm 16:11.

[Barde]

wow barde,
i am highly delighted to know there are muslims out there today like you.
Alhamdulillah,
hope i get the smae iman and driving force to do such great work.
oh lionger, u got a guy to deal with!

Al Hamza,thank you very much but you know it's not my making,the only thing we need is prayers for Allah to give us more  courage to keep up the challenges.Allah ya taimakemu ya kuma kara mana basira,Amin .

Ma'assalam.

Barde.

[Barde]

wow. I'll have to be visiting this forum more often to keep up with the 'barrage'. Abeg slow down, if not I will write a book here. Where are you running to? ;D

Firstly, the ever-lingering question on women. Instead of picking and isolating verses, read that whole passage - I Corinthians 11:2-10, and note verse 5: "And every woman who prays or prohesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head." That settles the fact that the instructions concerned prayer. I did not say it, the Bible did. And u may have slightly misquoted I Cor 11:10 "For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head." Does it mean the angels r only there when we are praying? Maybe it does, I don't know - but what does it matter? But Jesus promised, 'I will be with you always, even to the end of the age," (Matthew 28:20) and that's what counts.

On women speaking in church: I have already explained this, did you not read it? And note that the passage we have just discussed (I Cor. 2:2-10) seems to support the notion that women should speak in church, since God can speak through them (prophecy). If God really wanted women to keep quiet in church, then He would ?not give them His Spirit.


Ask yourself: Who was Jesus talking to in Matthew 5? Were the Jews Christians? If they were already Christians, then of what use was Jesus' coming to earth? As I said earlier, the word, 'Christian' means 'Christ-like'. If the Jews were already Christ-like, then y did Jesus come? No, like I said b4, the Jews, Pharisees and teachers of the law, lived under the law, and thus Jesus spoke to them of the law. But though the Pharisees preached it, they themselves also broke it, and their hearts were far from God. Jesus says this in Matthew 23.

Once again, I think you slightly misquoted Matthew 5:25-"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison."

Where did the issue of courts and high councils come from? Was that in the law God gave Moses? It was an invention of men; and those Jesus was talking about were probably the ones set up by the Romans. What Jesus said in that verse was simply common sense and wisdom: Isn't it better for you to settle an argument outside the court, instead of risking inprisonment?

Even today we have laws, constitution and courts; am I saying Christians do not abide by those? Certainly not, in fact, the Bible instructs us to do so. But God says good deeds, keeping the law, and morals are worthless in itself, unless accompanied by the righteousness that comes by faith - faith in Jesus. I will say a few more things of this righteousness, for many of the questions you are asking leads me in that direction.

And by the way, God is the author of confusion? The Bible says this: "For God is not the author of confusion but of peace" I Corinthans 14:33.

You have partially hit a truth here. The law is for those unto whom it was written. Romans 3:19 says - "Now we know that what the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable before God." Note verse 20: "Therefore no-one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law;rather, through the law we became conscious of sin."

In fact, let's also read Romans 2:12,14-15 : "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law... Indeed, when the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now defending them."

Therefore if a Christian woman believes it is wrong for her to wear trousers or keep her hair uncovered in public, she should not do so. If a Christian believes eating animals is wrong, he should not eat it. For if he does, his conscience accuses him, as it is not done in faith. Thus he is condemned while he does it, cuz the Bible says that everything that is not done by faith is sin. (Romans 14:23). You may want to read the rest of that chapter.

On Jesus being sent to the Jews only: yes indeed he went to the Jews, because they had received the Promise God gave Abraham, which is the same Promise given through the Prophets: Christ. However, the Scriptures forsaw that God would justify the non-Jews by faith, because Isaiah the Prophet declares in Isaiah 11:10, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him." This is what God meant when he said to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you" (Genesis 12:3, 18:18, and 22:18). As such, Jesus says after His resurrection, in Matthew 28:19: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..". Jesus is as much our Savior as He is the Savior of the Jews. He is the savior of all who believe.

On monotheism. Like I said b4, read John 1. And also, Philippians 2:6-11, in which the Bible says this concerning Christ:

"Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death - even death on a cross!
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

That He, though being God, prayed all the same to the Father, shows his humble nature, and the sort of example he set for us.

Full stop. Christians believe this word as true, despite all manly wisdom which points to the contrary, and thus are righteous in God's sight. Just as Abraham believed against all reasonable doubt God's promise of a son, and thus was also counted as righteous and became heir to the Promise. (Gen 15:6).

The explanation for Matthew 27:46 is that Jesus was experiencing total separation from God. Why? Because the sin of the whole world was on Him, and God saw that and turned away. What He experienced was our punishment for sin - death, not just physical death, but spiritual death - separation from God. Even for Jesus, God in human form, it was a terrible thing, how much more would it be for us!

On praise and worship, read the Psalms, Specifically, Psalm 150. In fact God even says we should make a joyful noise unto Him! (Psalm 95:1-2, Psalm 98:4, NKJV). We believe that if we praise God with all our heart and abilities, that we will enter God's presence and He will fight our battles. In all we do, we do to God's glory - when we sing, we sing to God, when we clap our hands and dance, we do it to God, who sees it and is glorified. If people can sing, dance and use musical instruments to please men and even the devil - ?then how much more will God be glorified if we use those musical and dancing gifts to praise Him. So don't condemn those Christians u see dancing and playing instruments - they do it to God, and God is there within their midst. And in God's presence, there is joy. Psalm 16:11.

Lionger,am i running?no!i don't think so, am still warming up. I will be glad if you can write the book and give me the privelege to review it.

In one of your responses,you said the dress code for women ?mentioned in the bible(1 crintians 11:6 and 10) is applied only when they are worshipping/praying,i will be glad if you can tell us how a woman should dress in work place,on the streets or home.Mind you jesus is always with you as you quoted.(matthew 28:20)

On women speaking in the church,will you agree with me that the verses are contradictory?since some verses are saying they should not(1corintians 14:34-35)while others are saying they should(acts21:9).How can you reconcile between the two verses? i can only agree with you, if one of the verses is saying they should speak and the other is teaching them how to do it.

Lionger,it seems you don't understand the questions i asked ?about law,courts,and high council.Let me just put it this way, Why do you find the verses that mentioned law,courts,high council,in the bible? we all know ?they are related to something......,rules of conduct by an organised community as upheld by the authority.If at all christians do not live under any law, as they are claiming,then permit me to suggest that matthew 5:17-48 be expunge entirely from the bible since it is irrelevant to the present day christians.Do you agree with my suggestion or not.

I can't understand what you wrote about commiting a sin,do you mean a christian is at liberty to indulge in anything so far he does not believe what he is doing is a sin?does it apply to everything or it is only restricted to eating,women wearing trousers? if one,for example,commit an adultery,has he done anything wrong?if he does not believe  is a sin?i need some more explanations please.

It is stated in John 1-10:11 and i quote.
But although the world was made through him,the world didn't recognise him when he came, even in his own land among his own people,he was not accepted .(john 1-10:11).
Who are his people?i have already proved to you both qur'anicallyand biblically who the people of jesus are,(mark 12:29 and matthew 10:5-6)and we all know who the people of israel are.if at all jesus was sent to all nations as mentioned in matthew28:19,then what can you say about the two verses i mentioned above and how can you reconcile the two verses?if you didn't reconcile them, i don't have any alternative than to add them to my catalogue.

On monotheism,Lionger,do you know the meaning of God?you don't seems to,wait a minute,you mean God prayed to the father?
for clearity,let me just summarise the meaning of God,prayer and Father, so that at the end, we will see if they are compatible or not.
God is the creator and ruler of the universe.
Father is a male parent
Prayer is to ask,supplicate e.t.c.
Now to the point,You said jesus being God,he prayed all the same to the father,Kai, i don't think they compatible,do you think so?How can the creator and ruler of the universe supplicate and God having a male parent? One can only ask if he is not in full control of the things he is asking.Unless you don't agree with my definations.

You said jesus was experiencing total separation from God.At this point,i will say Alhamdulillah,do you realise what you are saying?please try and reason well before writing,Does make any sense to you?when you say God is experiencing separation from God and how can God be subjected to punishment?remember the defination of God.
and how can the sin of the whole world be on jesus,when the bible says in deuteronomy24:16 and i quote

The fathers shall not be put to death for their children or shall the children be put to death for their fathers,every man shall be put to death for his own sin(deutronomy24:16)

and you said jesus your father,died for your sins when the bible is saying something contrary.Barde and the rest of kanoonliners needs clarifications.

I have gone through all the verses in the bible that talked about worshipping,i haven't seen where jesus said, am the lord,worship me by dancing and clapping,will be happy if you can tell me please help.
1 corintians chapter 4,talked about an orderly worship.Even though the mode of the worshipping is entirely different but i believe you will have an idea of an orderly worship,when you visit a muslim freind and watch him/her worshipping, don't even bother asking what he/she is saying.

I will rest my case here,till you write.

[lionger]

BARDE,

How should a woman dress when not in the church? A woman (and a man, this is not a sexist thing) should dress in accordance of these verses, one of which I quoted earlier: "Everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial," (I Corinthians 6:12) and Romans 14:16 - "Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil." When you put your mind to it, what do u come up with?

On women speaking in church: The instruction keeping women silent in church was in accordance with cultural sensibilities and thus for peace in the church (note Romans 14:16). However, 'where the Spirit of God is, there is freedom' (ii Cor. 3:17). Thus women who are filled with God's Spirit have the freedom to do what the Spirit leads them to do, irrespective of all cultural boundaries.

On the law/high courts: Haha I don't think you understand me either. Replying what you just said would be repitition of what I said earlier, maybe we should drop the subject altogether.

On sin: Let's read the verse in question, Romans 14:23, carefully: "And everythign which does not come from faith is sin." Note that it did not say, "Sin is everything that is not done by faith". Thus the converse is not true. Rather, in addition to the rest of what God calls sin, which includes adultery, is Romans 14:23. Thus a christian who commits adultery will be convicted in his mind by the Holy Spirit, because it is not in accordance with the Word of God.

On Jesus' role: Likewise, I have proved that He was sent to save not just the Jews, but the whole world through His sacrifice. The instructions He gave in Matthew 10:5-6 was because it was not yet time for the Gentiles. Proof: John 12: 20-26. Some Greeks asked the disciple Philip if they could speak to Jesus. When Jesus was informed, he said this: "The time has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. I tell you the truth, unless the a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds." Jesus was talking of his death! Why, because it was by His death that the Greeks and other Gentiles would received God's righteousness if they believed.
Monotheism.
Firstly, read that passage I quoted from Philippians. You have a hard time comprehending Jesus as God, simply because of His humility on earth. Phillipians 2:6-11 tells us that though Jesus was God, He reduced himself to man, and became a servant. For this reason, we see Him praying to God the Father, as a ?sign of his servant nature,
his humility. The passage goes on to say that He became obedient to death - even a disgraceful and horribly painful death on a cross! How can God die? Because He humbled himself to become man. Why? For our sake. Read what Jesus said in Matthew 26:53-54, when Peter tried to defend him against ?His apprehenders: "Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scripture be fulfilled that say it must happen this way?"

Secondly, do not try to comprehend the Father-Son relationship as if it were a biological matter. That is incorrect. If it was biology, then who is the mother of the Son? Shouldn't there be a God the Mother? Or will you say cloning?(laugh ?;D). No, the Father-Son relationship is based on a much higher understanding than our worldly wisdom. It is not possible to fully understand the nature of God with our minds. He is from everlasting to everlasting; He exists in a world of timelessness; can you understand that?

Thirdly, since you persist, I will confuse this definition of God, with verses in the Bible.
1)God - the creator of the universe. Once again read John 1. It proves that Jesus was there in the beginning, and that thru him everything was made (John 1:3).
2)As proof of Christianity's monotheism, Jesus said to the Jews in John 10:30, "I and the Father are one."
At this, the Jews accused him of blasphemy and wanted to stone Him. He replied, in verse 34,"Is it not written in your law, 'I have said that you are gods?'" Is it too much to say that Jesus is God, when in fact the scriptures call us gods?
3) After the fall of Adam and Eve through sin, God said in Genesis 3:22, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil." Why did God use the word 'us' if he was just 'one' as the verses you have brought up seem to suggest?

Finally, on the incredulity of the whole world's sin on Jesus: Why not? Note the third from last paragraph of my first post. If the whole world is condemned to death by the sin of one man, Adam, then why can't the whole world be saved thru the grace of one man, Jesus Christ? Just as one act of disobedience brought condemnation for all mankind, so also one act of obedience brought righteousness and life for all mankind. The premise for this argument is in Romans 5:12-19.

[al_hamza]

lionger lionger,
donot refuse to see the truth cos of yur hatred,
even if a hindu or a person that knows nothing about Islam and Christianity comes upon what you have written..... he'd simply laugh his head off,
oh! how i wish you would just leave the white man's slavery for some minutes to judge the truth for yurself.
hey guys! guess what though its old news
"the church will soon begin marrying gay couples"
lionger i hope you'd do something to stop it (thats if u aint a ***) yukh!

[admin]

Assalamu alaikum;
al_hamza,

While everyone got the right to make his or her own point, your respond to this topic is really getting out of order. Besides, this not the way to have somebody be convinced of your point of view.  This topic, started by BARDE on 05/24/03 has already attracted about 150 views. I think this is because of the matured and intellectual way the debate is going on. So please do not try to make it into an abusive debate.

[Barde]

BARDE,

How should a woman dress when not in the church? A woman (and a man, this is not a sexist thing) should dress in accordance of these verses, one of which I quoted earlier: "Everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial," (I Corinthians 6:12) and Romans 14:16 - "Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil." When you put your mind to it, what do u come up with?

On women speaking in church: The instruction keeping women silent in church was in accordance with cultural sensibilities and thus for peace in the church (note Romans 14:16). However, 'where the Spirit of God is, there is freedom' (ii Cor. 3:17). Thus women who are filled with God's Spirit have the freedom to do what the Spirit leads them to do, irrespective of all cultural boundaries.

On the law/high courts: Haha I don't think you understand me either. Replying what you just said would be repitition of what I said earlier, maybe we should drop the subject altogether.

On sin: Let's read the verse in question, Romans 14:23, carefully: "And everythign which does not come from faith is sin." Note that it did not say, "Sin is everything that is not done by faith". Thus the converse is not true. Rather, in addition to the rest of what God calls sin, which includes adultery, is Romans 14:23. Thus a christian who commits adultery will be convicted in his mind by the Holy Spirit, because it is not in accordance with the Word of God.

On Jesus' role: Likewise, I have proved that He was sent to save not just the Jews, but the whole world through His sacrifice. The instructions He gave in Matthew 10:5-6 was because it was not yet time for the Gentiles. Proof: John 12: 20-26. Some Greeks asked the disciple Philip if they could speak to Jesus. When Jesus was informed, he said this: "The time has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. I tell you the truth, unless the a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds." Jesus was talking of his death! Why, because it was by His death that the Greeks and other Gentiles would received God's righteousness if they believed.
Monotheism.
Firstly, read that passage I quoted from Philippians. You have a hard time comprehending Jesus as God, simply because of His humility on earth. Phillipians 2:6-11 tells us that though Jesus was God, He reduced himself to man, and became a servant. For this reason, we see Him praying to God the Father, as a ?sign of his servant nature,
his humility. The passage goes on to say that He became obedient to death - even a disgraceful and horribly painful death on a cross! How can God die? Because He humbled himself to become man. Why? For our sake. Read what Jesus said in Matthew 26:53-54, when Peter tried to defend him against ?His apprehenders: "Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scripture be fulfilled that say it must happen this way?"

Secondly, do not try to comprehend the Father-Son relationship as if it were a biological matter. That is incorrect. If it was biology, then who is the mother of the Son? Shouldn't there be a God the Mother? Or will you say cloning?(laugh ?;D). No, the Father-Son relationship is based on a much higher understanding than our worldly wisdom. It is not possible to fully understand the nature of God with our minds. He is from everlasting to everlasting; He exists in a world of timelessness; can you understand that?

Thirdly, since you persist, I will confuse this definition of God, with verses in the Bible.
1)God - the creator of the universe. Once again read John 1. It proves that Jesus was there in the beginning, and that thru him everything was made (John 1:3).
2)As proof of Christianity's monotheism, Jesus said to the Jews in John 10:30, "I and the Father are one."
At this, the Jews accused him of blasphemy and wanted to stone Him. He replied, in verse 34,"Is it not written in your law, 'I have said that you are gods?'" Is it too much to say that Jesus is God, when in fact the scriptures call us gods?
3) After the fall of Adam and Eve through sin, God said in Genesis 3:22, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil." Why did God use the word 'us' if he was just 'one' as the verses you have brought up seem to suggest?

Finally, on the incredulity of the whole world's sin on Jesus: Why not? Note the third from last paragraph of my first post. If the whole world is condemned to death by the sin of one man, Adam, then why can't the whole world be saved thru the grace of one man, Jesus Christ? Just as one act of disobedience brought condemnation for all mankind, so also one act of obedience brought righteousness and life for all mankind. The premise for this argument is in Romans 5:12-19.

Lionger,

Am not suprise with your replies, i know that's how it will end, thank God this topic attracted ?more than 150 views, they will judge between the truth and false. I want to remaind you that am not quoting from the holy qur'an,all the verses i quoted are there in the bible, does that means you are disproving your bible?

Anyway,am leaving you with a story of jesus and a woman,mentioned in matthew 20:20-22.You go and scrutinize it very well, may be the story will help you find out the true position of jesus, son of Mary.

The mother of james and john,the sons of zebedee,came to jesus with her sons.She knelt respectively to ask a favour.Jesus asked,what is your request?she replied,In your kingdom,will you let my two sons sit in places of honour next to you?,one at your right and the other at your left?jesus told them,You don't know what you are asking!are you ready to drink from the bitter cup of sorrow i am about to drink?oh,yes they replied,we are able!You will indeed drink from it,he told them.But i have no right to say who will sit on the thrones next to me.My father has prepared those places for the ones he has choosen.(matthew 20:20-22).

I want you to really concentrate on where jesus told the woman that he has no right to give anybody the privelege of sitting next to him in the kingdom,that means he is not in control. so the earlier you realise the truth the better for you.Thank you.

See you in my next topic, coming soon inshaAllah.

[lionger]

BARDE,

Thank you for your politeness and patience in putting up with me during this discussion. I didn't notice this thread had attracted so many viewers; so I shall, after responding first to your questions, say a few things to the others.

No, I am not disproving the Bible, but just as iron sharpens iron, scripture sharpens scripture. Each verse compensates and checks the other. For example, note the temptation of Jesus by the devil, in Matthew 4:5-7 :

"Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple."If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:
?'He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'"
Jesus answered him, "It is also written, "Do not put the Lord your God to the test.""

The verse the devil quoted is in Psalm 91: 11,12, and Jesus' reply is in Deuteronomy 6:16. Thus the Bible is not a catalogue of contradictions by which it is impossible to live. On the contrary, "all Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.." (II Timothy 3:16).

On the passage you mentioned: In addition, Jesus also said that no-one in heaven, not even Himself, knows the time of His Second coming, except God the Father. That does not mean Jesus is not God, John 1 testifies to the contrary. Rather, that He, though in very nature God, still submits Himself to the will of God the Father, from whom all things come. If I say, based on His humility, that Jesus is not God, and therefore should not be worshipped, then I am in error, for Matthew 28:17 tells us that after His ressurection, the disciples recognised and worshipped Him. Yet some still doubted.

Also,

The fathers shall not be put to death for their children or shall the children be put to death for their fathers,every man shall be put to death for his own sin(deutronomy24:16) ... and you said jesus your father,died for your sins when the bible is saying something contrary.Barde and the rest of kanoonliners needs clarifications.

But Jesus never sinned; so when He died, whose sin was He dying for? For my sin and the world's.

FINAL COMMENTS
My first post here is a summary of the message Christians believe. I know that much of what I have said here sound crazy and stupid; some of the questions BARDE has asked are questions that I and other Christians have asked while studying the Bible. Infact you are right, what I believe is foolish. Yet it is also God's wisdom, for the Bible says in I Cor. 1:18 that "the message of the cross is foolishness to the world, but to those who are saved it is the power of God." And in verse 21 the Bible tells us that 'God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe." Finallly verse 27: "But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of this world to shame the strong."

Since the beginning of time, God has always chosen the small, humble and despised things of this world over the strong and proud things. He called Abraham in his old age to leave everything he knew and go on a senseless journey, and promised him a son though his wife Sarah was barren. He chose Moses, whom the Bible described as "a humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth."(Numbers 12:3). And finally He chose David, the last of eight sons and a shepherd boy from Bethlehem, to kill the giant Goliath and to rule Israel. Accordingly, the Bible says in Proverbs 3:34, that "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble."

For this reason Jesus tells his disciples in Matthew 18:3 that unless they become like little children, they will never enter God's kingdom. In Luke 14:11 He says, "Everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. In fact, the 'sequel' to the story Barde quoted from Matthew 20 shows this. The other disciples were angry with James and John for their selfish request. But Jesus called them together and said, "Instead, whoever wants to be great among you must first become your servant, and whoever wants to be first should first become your slave - just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." Matthew 20:26-28.

Indeed in nature, Jesus himself was humble. He was not born into nobility (except in the sense that He was of David's lineage), or even in a hospital, but in a manger, from which animals eat. He did not choose his disciples from the Pharisees or the teachers of the law, but from fishermen and tax collectors - lowly, uneducated men. And he socialized and ate with the 'sinners' of the day. In fact, He told the Pharisees in Matthew 21:31 that the tax collectors and prostitutes were entering God's kingdom ahead of them. And He even humbled himself to death, and not a peaceful death on a bed, but a shameful death on the cross! But after this humiliation, He rose again and was exalted to the right hand of God the Father, true to his word in Luke 14:11.

Therefore we Christians throw away our own wisdom and humbling ourselves to the foolish gospel of Jesus Christ. We weaken ourselves so that God may be strong in us, for He says in II Corinthians 12:9,"My strength is made perfect in weakness." And we die to ourselves and to sin everyday so that Christ might live in us, just as Christ died so that we might live to God.

Thank you once again, BARDE. Yes, I will see you again in your next thread. Others are free to even PM me on questions ?regarding the Christian faith, and I will be more than happy to give a fitting answer by God's grace.

May God bless us all. Amen.

[Waziri]

Interesting discussion,

This discourse and its kind always prove to be educative to readers. Yes,  I found it so way back my adolescent years when I decided to study the the eight world most famous religions. I could see even then that the areas of  disagreement between Christians and Muslim are five:

1.   The Divinity of Christ
2.   His Divine Sonship
3.   Original Sin and Blood Atonement
4.   Trinity
5.   And Authenticity and Reliability of Bible as The Word  
    of  God


I think it will be well for me to contribute if the next series of discourse will take each and every one of the  above themes and explore in the light of the scriptures. I think that will give us a sort of a defined direction and make our motives more clear. What I have read above seem to have had every thing chunked in the same breath. But all d same BARDE and lionger Bravo!!!

Im sorry pls let me make some clarification. Christians does not in any way mean Christ-like because the first word Christians appeared first in Christianity according Luke the writer of Acts of the Apostles in Antioch where the disciples were first called Christians.

[Barde]

Interesting discussion,

This discourse and its kind always prove to be educative to readers. Yes, ?I found it so way back my adolescent years when I decided to study the the eight world most famous religions. I could see even then that the areas of ?disagreement between Christians and Muslim are five:

1. ? The Divinity of Christ
2. ? His Divine Sonship
3. ? Original Sin and Blood Atonement
4. ? Trinity
5. ? And Authenticity and Reliability of Bible as The Word ?
? ? of ?God


I think it will be well for me to contribute if the next series of discourse will take each and every one of the ?above themes and explore in the light of the scriptures. I think that will give us a sort of a defined direction and make our motives more clear. What I have read above seem to have had every thing chunked in the same breath. But all d same BARDE and lionger Bravo!!!

Im sorry pls let me make some clarification. Christians does not in any way mean Christ-like because the first word Christians appeared first in Christianity according Luke the writer of Acts of the Apostles in Antioch where the disciples were first called Christians.

Assalamualaikum,
Mallam Waziri,Thank you for the observation,If you can observe i started with Shariah in the bible,but along the way my freind lionger diverted and i had to reply her.Just watch out for my next topic coming soon inshaAllah.