The thrill of victory.The agony of defeat.I recall someone on this board saying Israel's going to come out of this war ''unscarthed'',as always.That doesn't seem to be the case ,atleast from my own perspective.Hezbollah not taken out,threat not eliminated,and captives not returned (yet).I'd be glad if someone throws in sone light about what Israel has benefited from this war ,except killing a thousand civilians,and causing an infrastructure damage worth of $ 2 billion.On a second thought,killing a 1000 civilians is a major success for the Israeli's...
It is worth noting that not all Israelis support the barbaric and murderous behviour of the Israeli Government.
There is very strong opposition developing in Israel itself , led by those who understand that Israel's current behaviour will eventually lead to the either the destruction of Israel or the Third World War
israelis went 2 war 4 just no cause at-all. their action has been nd still is, vindictive as always. they are simply war mongerers nd d world, despite d supposedly mute game it played nd still is playing, wouldnt 4get in d nearest future, d israelis LUST 4 d blood of d innocent-civilians they invaded nd massacred in lebanon. more-so their notority in killin d palestinians on daily basis. if, we as muslims, are incapacitated by d lack of american/their allieds support, then we have d support of d ALMIGHTY nd wen it comes, where would america or israel or their dubious allieds face or hide? ``certainly, in d end victory shall b wit d believers``
4 now shame on d israelis on their fruitless offensive nd destruction of lives nd properties in lebanon. but they should put in mind dat ``they cant eat their cake nd have it`` always!
So I suppose it is your view that Israel should sit back and allow herself to be attacked at will by Muslim terrorists and do nothing about it. I tell you, Israel is not Nigeria where christians get attacked at will by Muslim fanatics without any consequence. Regardless of how many unprovoked attacks are visited on the innocent non Muslims in Nigeria by the intolerant Muslims, the irresponsible leadership does nothing to bring the perpetrators of such violence to account.
I think many radical Muslims and their supporters have gotten used to the idea that they can carry out senseless slaughter of innocent people and not be held responsible. There used to be a time, where Europe was the main target of fascist Islamic terrorism. They would hijack planes at will, blow up restaurants, and walk free because the complascent European governments either lacked the will to combat terror or did not fully comprehend the magnitude of the unfolding univeral problem.
Israel did what she had to do to protect herself and in the process serve notice that she will go to any length to protect her citizens. I think it is irresponsible of anyone to call Israel's action criminal. Israel's action is not only just, but necessary. There are people living under the illusion that Hezbollah won a victory. I wonder how one claims victory when they lost far more men than the opposing side, and got pushed back 20 miles away from the border where they were a nuisance.
The only action of Israel that I disagree with is her strategy going into battle. Israeli army was busy targetting hezbollah infrastructure and personnel knowing quite well that the cowardly Hezbollah hides among civilian population, and uses civilians as human shield which by the way is a violation of the Geneva convention. Given this kind of complexity, I would have prefered that they level every town where Hezbollah was hiding in. They should not have been cautious or selective of the targets they bombed. I simply would have levelled an entire community. This way, everything including the hiding Hezbollah militants are obliterated in the process. If that were the case, future hosts of terrorist groups would think twice about granting terror groups residence in their communities knowing the consequence that may one day unfold.
And Dave here keeps spreading disinformation. I wonder where he gets his own news from. Obviously he gets his reports exclusively from Al Jazeera. He keeps spreading lies about an opposition developing in Isreal. Absolute nonsense. The Isreali public were in full support of their government all through the offensive. What people are weary about is the decision to abide by the cease-fire agreement. Many feel that the Israeli Army should have continued until it simply crushed Hezbollah. Dave, you are really funny. In your strange mind, you believe Israel will plunge the World into a World war? During the first World War, whose side were the Muslims on? Were the Muslims, Turks, and palestinians not on the side of Germany?
When has Israel come close to causing a world war? Please name one instance. In all the Arab-Isreali wars, name one time when Israel started a war against the Arabs. Name one time where Israel has bombed embassies in Africa killing Africans. Name one time when Isrealis have hijacked anyone's plane and killed its occupants. Name one time where Israel has used WMD on anyone of its neighbors. If you cannot name one incident to any of these questions, how in your mind, is Israel the problem?
I am tired like Waziri of hearing the lies and squabbles of Arabs. They lie at will and never in honesty look at the entire picture or the cause and effect of any situation. They pick their crying points when and where it suits them but conveniently leave out their own complicity
in the problem. I ask again, when has Arabs/Muslims ever taken responsibility for anything at all. Even when they are dead wrong, they NEVER take responsibility because in their minds (and we've seen that attitude here in this forum by some self procliamed genuis) they are always right.
They riot all over the damn place causing injury and death to innocent people, but they are still right and everyone else is wrong.
They are killing and displacing black Africans in Sudan, but, they are not wrong. They are right, and everyone else is wrong.
They got so mad because some Danish tabloid dared to portray Mohammed, and went on the usual rampage which ultimately led to over 200 deaths in Nigeria. No, they are not wrong, they are right and everyone is wrong. How can they be wrong, allah forbid.
They can hijack commercial planes and crash it into buildings killing thousands of people in the process, but no, they are not wrong. Everyone else is wrong. It has to be western policy towards them. That is why, so they are not wrong......nooooooooooooo, allah forbid that they be wrong.
They are rightm everyone else is wrong.
The list goes on and on. Is it possible for fanatical Muslims to be right always? If it is not, when do they ever take responsibility?
All this claim by the Iranian President that allah's promise had been fulfilled in reference to the Israel/Hezbollah conflict is really sketchy to me. I wonder what the promise is exactly. At the end of the day, most of south Lebanon is ruins.
Ete says "most of South Lebanon is in ruins". Exactly. And most of South Lebanon was full of innocent civilians, over 1000 of whom have ben killed by the Israelis. And 1,000,000 are now homeless.
Let me repeat Israel has been guilty of huge war crimes in this action and have been able to do so because they are supported by the USA (and Tony Blair)
EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD OPPOSES ISRAEL'S BARBARIC BEHAVIOUR. ISRAEL ACTUALLY BOMBED THE CHRISTIAN AREAS OF SOUTH BEIRUT AS WELL WHICH HAD NOTHING WHATEVER TO DO WITH HESBOLLAH.
International law makes it a crime to destroy a country's infrastucture, to target civilain areas and to destroy essential civilian services. Israel deliberately did all these things.
All the time this action was going on in Lebanon Israel was continuing its murderous behaviour in Gaza. It has killed nearly 200 Palestinians in the Gaza strip since it invaded Lebanon. Just last week it shelled a picnic party of Palestinian children on the beach.
The continued to shell and kill neutral United Nations observers in Lebanon despite being asked NINE TIMES by the Iirish Government to stop doing so. They have ignored over 250 United Nations Resolutions regarding their illegal invasion and occupation of huge parts of Palestinian lands.
Ete says Israel has the right to defend itself. Lets get this straight! Hesbollah was not firing hundreds of shells into Israel until Israel started flattening huge areas of Lebanon with American supplied bunkerbuster bombs. Are not the Lebanese Hesbollah entitled to defend themselves?
The tiny country of Lebanon has never invaded,attacked or occupied any one else's country. It is in fact the most peaceful and most democratic of the Middle Eastern States in which people of all religions live peacefully together. As Nigeria knows most Lebanese people just want to sell things.
Is the fact that Lebanon is so small the reason why the Israel cowards, with the world's fourth largest army, armed to teeth with the latest American arms, attacks it.
Well done Hesbollah! Despite the facy of being outnumbered and lightly armed they have actually defeated the Israelis in the field.
Ete, you have swallowed all the American rubbish in support of Israel.
Do you live in America by any chance?
Choi, see me see trouble; Ete you don come again. Wow! You are worse than the Israelis :lol: !! Mince your words I beg you; you are headed for a brutal head-on collision with the other posters on this thread/forum and it won't be pretty. I'm even considering a semi-retirement from these discussions cuz of the extreme polarity on both sides and the antagonism that might surface (and already has). While obviously I share your general stance on Israel, there are several rather harsh things you said that I'd like to highlight.
First of all you're bringing a lot of 'external' issues into fray, and your characterisation/criticism of Muslims and Arabs is unfair and a bit inflammatory. Let's be careful to include appropriate context with these criticisms. For one thing, you should consistently clarify what section of Muslims you are refering to, because you seem to be casting a blanket statement on all muslims and I'm sure that's not what you mean. For instance, I think you'll agree with me that the 'muslim' riots in Nigeria is strictly a Northern phenomenon; we don't have these problems in the south-west. You speak of muslim agression over the Danish cartoon fracas, in the Sudan, in 9/11 etc. These are external issues, and perhaps its best to leave them out of this discussion. I think you're trying to say that the 'muslim world' i.e. many muslim countries/regional bodies is not balanced in admitting/targetting their own internal failures/injustices as well as those from the external. To this I agree, but we should be careful not to make extremely negative sweeping statements on all muslims/Arabs, if not things will get ugly very quickly.
Next I find this post of yours rather shocking and incredible:
QuoteThe only action of Israel that I disagree with is her strategy going into battle. Israeli army was busy targetting hezbollah infrastructure and personnel knowing quite well that the cowardly Hezbollah hides among civilian population, and uses civilians as human shield which by the way is a violation of the Geneva convention. Given this kind of complexity, I would have prefered that they level every town where Hezbollah was hiding in. They should not have been cautious or selective of the targets they bombed. I simply would have levelled an entire community. This way, everything including the hiding Hezbollah militants are obliterated in the process. If that were the case, future hosts of terrorist groups would think twice about granting terror groups residence in their communities knowing the consequence that may one day unfold.
You can't really mean this Ete. What you're advocating here (for all practical purposes) is mass elimination of the entire Southern Lebanese community! This is an even worse violation of the Geneva convention!! Even if it destroys Hizballah, the incident will serve as a rallying call all over the world and will end up creating much worse security problems for Israel. No, no, Ete I strongly urge you to reconsider your position. Yes Hezbollah does not carry itself as a conventional army would, but surely that can't be used as an excuse for genocide?! I still have severe reservations about Israel's handling of this war and the near-1000 lost Lebanese lives.
QuoteAnd Dave here keeps spreading disinformation. I wonder where he gets his own news from. Obviously he gets his reports exclusively from Al Jazeera. He keeps spreading lies about an opposition developing in Isreal. Absolute nonsense. The Isreali public were in full support of their government all through the offensive. What people are weary about is the decision to abide by the cease-fire agreement. Many feel that the Israeli Army should have continued until it simply crushed Hezbollah. Dave, you are really funny. In your strange mind, you believe Israel will plunge the World into a World war? During the first World War, whose side were the Muslims on? Were the Muslims, Turks, and palestinians not on the side of Germany?
You are rather harsh on Dave here, as you were before on Waziri's thread. Actually I agree at least partially with what he has said here. He is not completely wrong. See this BBC article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4792261.stm
I personally see this as a very encouraging sign that at least the Israeli citizens have not succombed to the madness of mob mentality which destroys any chance of objective self-criticism and propriety in future actions. As you said, there was/is a strong concensus in Israel on the need for a strong response against Hezbollah. Whether they fully support their govermnent's actions in this regard is another matter. I'm not so sure of Dave's conclusions that the Israeli people fear the hastening of a third world war because of their govt's actions, or your conclusion that they did not want their govt to abide with the cease-fire. Do you have any sources to back this up? The truth may well be in-between.
In any case I still agree with you on the justification of Israel's response to Hezbollah and its right to defend itself, as well as the complicity of Hezbollah itself in starting this conflict. I thoroughly disagree with hikma's contribution here and find his inclusion of religious sentiment to be a bit ill-advised. Israel and its supporters can fall back on plenty of religious 'dogma' if they wanted to; two can play at this game! Above all lets keep things civil and not throw all sorts of wild allegations around.
God bless,
lionger
Hello Dave,
I disagree with much of what you have said here as factually incorrect. First of all, there is no need to bring the US or UK into this. Israel's actions would have been the same regardless of support from either of these countries don't you agree?
Also you made reference to the death of several UN Observers in Lebanon and Israel's non-compliance with UN resolutions:
QuoteThe continued to shell and kill neutral United Nations observers in Lebanon despite being asked NINE TIMES by the Iirish Government to stop doing so. They have ignored over 250 United Nations Resolutions regarding their illegal invasion and occupation of huge parts of Palestinian lands.
Well concerning the deaths of the UN observers, the IAF should be blamed partly for it, but also the Hezbollah. Frankly it wouldn't have happened if the Hezbollah had not used the UN post as a cover (which they were!). This of course is rather consistent with their tactics in 'blending among civilians' as UN official Jan Egeland put it and rightly condemned the Hezbollah for. Shortly after this happened I listened to a radio show interview of retired Major Lewis MacKenzie, who was a former UN Commander in Bosnia. A few days before the attack, he received a email from one of the soldiers formerly under his command, Major Hess-von Kruedener (who would die in the IAF attack), complaining of the fact that the Hezbollah were using the UN post as shields and that the IDF was targeting areas near the post as a result. See this article:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3282569,00.html
The other articles contain references to Hezbollah's 'blending' tactics:
http://www.zeenews.com/znnew/articles.asp?aid=311313&sid=WOR
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5232434.stm
As for the Israel's disobedience to UN resolutions, they are not alone there, even among their neighbors and those directly involved in this conflict. The disbanding of the Hezbollah and exertion of control over southern Lebanon was also sanctioned by about two or three UN resolutions but the Lebanese government never did so. This to me is one of the deep underlying causes of this conflict. In fact I think that the Lebanese goverment's failure to keep foreign paramilitary organizations out of southern Lebanon is the major cause of all its miseries with Israel over the past 30+ years.
QuoteEte says Israel has the right to defend itself. Lets get this straight! Hesbollah was not firing hundreds of shells into Israel until Israel started flattening huge areas of Lebanon with American supplied bunkerbuster bombs. Are not the Lebanese Hesbollah entitled to defend themselves?
What are you talking about here? This conflict did not start with Israel; it started with the Hezbollah. It started on 12 July when the Hezbollah launched mortars and rockets into Israel, crossed the border and captured two Israeli coldiers and killed three others. Israel only responsed.
QuoteThe tiny country of Lebanon has never invaded,attacked or occupied any one else's country. It is in fact the most peaceful and most democratic of the Middle Eastern States in which people of all religions live peacefully together. As Nigeria knows most Lebanese people just want to sell things.
Is the fact that Lebanon is so small the reason why the Israel cowards, with the world's fourth largest army, armed to teeth with the latest American arms, attacks it.
One: The Lebanese government may never have entered direct conflict with any other country, but in the past 30 years several foreign organizations outside of its control and within its territory (the PLO, PFLP and recently the Hezbollah) have launched constant indiscriminate attacks on Israel. All these indiscretions has drawn angst from Israel resulting in misery for the Lebanese people. Speaking of which...
Two: I'm not sure if Lebanon has been a haven of peace in its post-independence history. They did have a very destructive 15-year civil war from 1975-1990 due to internal christian-muslim strife, the PLO, and Syrian/Israeli intervention. Since then there have been several recent outbreaks of sporadic violence such as the murder of former prime minister Hariri last year and the muslim-christian clashes during the Danish cartoons brouhaha.
Three: Lebanon's smallness/weakness is not the reason for Israel's attack on it in the light of all that has been said; this is not a reasonable statement. How can anyone say this in light of the facts? Israel attacked because of Hezbollah provocation, this has been obvious from day one. Till date I have not heard of one skirmish involving Israeli and Lebanese soldiers. This war is not Israel vs Lebanon, it is about Israel vs. Hezbollah!
I find it rather odd that you would congratulate Hezbollah for 'winning' the war. What exactly have they won? Their only success is in holding onto the captured Israeli soldiers. Both sides are declaring victory and I find this rather stupid. This war is all about losers, and the biggest loser is Lebanon!
Peace to you,
lionger
Lionger, Ok. I understand your sentiments, and I will as you say temper my comments with some degree of subtleness. The problem is I do not know how to mince my words. I am a rather blunt person.
Now, Dave believes I have been fed American propaganda. Dave, whose propaganda have you been fed? Al Jazeera? You also wanted to know if I live in America. Yes, I am a Nigerian-American, and I live here in the states. I have served in the Marines. Have you ever served in the marine corp?
You again delude yourself by claiming that Hezbollah defeated Israeli forces in lebanon. Since you've never been in combat how would you know what defeat means? You sit down in Europe or where ever you are and form a twisted opinion of the conflict based on false premise and portrayed by the Arabs thereby being totally blind to the facts. I challenged you in a different thread to provide the chronology of the Arab-Israeli conflict and let's see which side started the violence, but you danced around the challenge and refused to go that route because the truth may be too bitter for you to swallow.
I gave you instance when Isreal were forced to war against an overwhelming Arab war machine but beat the odds and came out on top every single time. As usual, you ran away from those facts. Here you are now, blaming America for its political and military support of Israel. You reasoning makes me wonder what goes through your head. To you, it is ok for the Arabic forces of Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, and co. to join forces and wage war against Israel as they did in 1948, and 57, and 67, but it is not ok for Israel to have an ally in the US. Maybe you've been smoking too much opium from Afghanistan Dave, and if that's the case, I encourage you to smoke some more.
The fact is, even if Israel gave up its entire territory to the Arabs, they still wouldn't be satisfied. How can they live without conflict? That would be the day. There is nothing Israel can do that will bring peace to the region because the Arabs simply are not peace loving. Without Isreal to wage war against, they'll take on Europe and Islamize the damn place forcing Dave to grow long beard and lose his freedoms and civil liberties. Then him and millions of folks like him will be the first to look to America for rescue.
Lionger, my previous post was not really out of context. I may have strayed a little out of the confines of the argument, but I was merely trying to show a pattern of behavior of a people that share the same ideology because at the end, it is all connected.
Well, now it is clear how distorted Dave's facts are. I have all along shown how he consistently misrepresents facts. I rest my case. But just to show how Dave how incorrect his assertions are, he said...."the tiny nation of Lebanon has never invaded, attacked, or occupied anyone country....."
Then maybe David should explain how between November 1947?March 1949, these countries went to war against Israel:
Egypt
Syria
Transjordan
Lebanon
Iraq
Holy War Army
Arab Liberation Army
Capabilities/Strength:
Egypt: 10,000 initially rising to 20,000
Iraq: 5,000 initially rising to 15?18,000
Syria: 2,500?5,000
Transjordan: 6,000?12,000
LEBANON: 1,000 initially rising to 2,000 (Pollack, 2004; Sadeh, 1997)
Saudi: 800?1,200
An unknown number of Yemeni troops
Arab Liberation Army (led by Fawzi Al-Qawuqji) 3,500-6,000.
Please Dave, I am not interested in any long diatribe. Just explain how Lebanon happens to be among the league of Arab nations that invaded Israel, yet according to you, they never attacked or invaded anybody. Please explain, or is this false western propagada as well? Luckily any historical source you check will present the same exact information, including those authored by Arabs. So choose your pick, but answer my question.
Ete:"Israel did what she had to do to protect herself and in the process serve notice that she will go to any length to protect her citizens. I think it is irresponsible of anyone to call Israel's action criminal. Israel's action is not only just, but necessary"
Well, as it's written below your name as a member in this forum, you are a Sr. member, so you deserve to be respected by me(as a member with no rank) and by any body like me.But......
Frankly speaking, your above statement absolutely amazed me. It stirred me to start thinking where(religion) do you really belong to. I am very sure you are not a Jew, are you?
My bro. you must fall in the class of either Muslims/Christians, so, please what can you say about killing of your tenth Muslims/Christians bothers? And also their kids etc?
Presently, even the leader of Christian party has completely condemed their(Israel) act talkless of Muslims leaders, which Hizbollah itself is under the umbrella of it.
Lastly, I'll be very much happy if you become fair in your words.
God bless us all!
Muhsin, that exactly is the problem. This was never about religion, and I think it is important to see clearly through this conflict, rather then muddy up the facts. This problem began when Hebollah killed 8 Israeli soldiers and kidnapped two. Prior to that, Hebollah had been firing rockets into Israel from southern Lebanon right under the nose of the Lebanese government. In any world, that is considered a sign of aggression. So the question I have for you is this, if you were in Israel's shoes, what would you do? Sit and fold your arms while you continually get attacked?
Regarding religion, I am not a religious person. I am someone that sees things for what they are. People have committed insane acts under the name of religion. This is why Lionger and myself said earlier and very clearly, that this is not about religion, but certain people here cannot seperate religion from anything else and as such their argument is clouded.
I repeat Israel has been guilty of war crimes in this invasion of Lebanon and its reaction to a few soldiers being kidnapped or shot has been completely disproportionate.
Terrorists hiding among civilians does not in any way justify killing hundreds of those civilians to get the terrorists.
I am surprised that Ete thinks to do so is okay. This is a war crime!
There is now internal turmoil in Israel as so many Israel citizens now understand that Israel's action has failed and has produced more and more opponents prepared to take up arms against Israel (which kills Palestinian women and children on a daily basis).
Israel is illegally occupying huge areas of the Palestinians lands and has forced the whole Palestinian nation into a narrow strip of land which is no more than a prison camp.Israel (and its sponser the US) is completely responsible for the hate that is justly directed against it.
Israel has recently kidnapped members of the elected Palestinian authority.
Israeli casualties in the current action is a tiny proportion of the innocent Lebanese casualties.
Israel's action as well as being barbaric and illegal has been very stupid as it has hugely strengthened Hesbollah who are recruiting young men by the thousands at the moment.
I will post a collection of statements made by Israel Prime Ministers agains the people whose land they occupy when I put it together.
Then some people may understand what is going on.
In Edinbugh, Scotland at the weekend Jews, Moslems and Christians marched together in a huge demonstration against the action of Israel in the Middle East.
Don't bother supplying me with any more American spin on this.
Dave, you keep running away from tackling simple factual questions put before you. You said authoritatively that Lebanon has never invaded or attacked Isreal. I refute that false claim and present you with undeniable facts that Lebanon has infact been involved in an attack on Israel.
But you completely avoided that in your next post, but go on talking about how disproportionate the Israeli action was. Was that the bone of contention initially?
Dave, there is nothing you can put together than will bring any sudden awareness or revelation. I took you down history lane on this so called occupation, but being so brainwashed by Arab propaganda as most Europeans are, you failed to follow history as it unfolded. You should go back and read my post thoroughly and you'll see the sequence of events. I have challenged you repeatredly to something, anything at all to refute my submissions, but you do not. You go on and on with your anti semitic tirade.
Let me try one more time,
1. Can you present to everyone here a background information (that can be researched and verified) of how the Arab-Israeli conflict began.
2. Which side began violence against the other?
3. Was the region called palestine a sovereign nation?
4. Can you name the occupants of the palestinian territory prior to WW1?
5. Can you explain how palenstine came to be owned by Palestinians
6. Since Israel is occupying the territory illegally, does it then mean
Israel never existed as a nation or occupied a territory.
7. The Arabs that invaded Jerusalem in the second second century, who
did they sack from Jerusalem? Who were the occupants of the land?
8. What was the UN solution to the growing Palestinian-Israeli issue of
the early 1920s ? What did the UN and Britain recommend in order
to establish peace? Why was the resolution made at all?
9. The U.N land partition of Palestine, how much territory did it give
Israel.
10. Do yourself a favor and be honest on this one: How did Israel
come to acquire more land than what she was originally given
during the partitioning?
11. When was the first major conflict involving the Arabs and Israel?
If you can answer that question correctly, who attacked who first?
12. Can you name the parties involved in the first Arab-Isreali conflict?
Also, show us what both sides military capabilities were.
12B. Tell us what the outcome of that conflict was
13. Regarding what is proportionate, do you think it is proportionate
for seven different Armies representing seven nations to go
against one nation in war? Do you think that is proportionate?
For now, I'll leave it at this. I think these are very simple and straight forward question. The question is, can you manage to respond to the each without going on irrelevantly? I await your response. No spins, just answer the questions. Thanks.
Quote from: "Ete"Lionger, Ok. I understand your sentiments, and I will as you say temper my comments with some degree of subtleness. The problem is I do not know how to mince my words. I am a rather blunt person.
Now, Dave believes I have been fed American propaganda. Dave, whose propaganda have you been fed? Al Jazeera? You also wanted to know if I live in America. Yes, I am a Nigerian-American, and I live here in the states. I have served in the Marines. Have you ever served in the marine corp?
You again delude yourself by claiming that Hezbollah defeated Israeli forces in lebanon. Since you've never been in combat how would you know what defeat means? You sit down in Europe or where ever you are and form a twisted opinion of the conflict based on false premise and portrayed by the Arabs thereby being totally blind to the facts. I challenged you in a different thread to provide the chronology of the Arab-Israeli conflict and let's see which side started the violence, but you danced around the challenge and refused to go that route because the truth may be too bitter for you to swallow.
I gave you instance when Isreal were forced to war against an overwhelming Arab war machine but beat the odds and came out on top every single time. As usual, you ran away from those facts. Here you are now, blaming America for its political and military support of Israel. You reasoning makes me wonder what goes through your head. To you, it is ok for the Arabic forces of Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, and co. to join forces and wage war against Israel as they did in 1948, and 57, and 67, but it is not ok for Israel to have an ally in the US. Maybe you've been smoking too much opium from Afghanistan Dave, and if that's the case, I encourage you to smoke some more.
The fact is, even if Israel gave up its entire territory to the Arabs, they still wouldn't be satisfied. How can they live without conflict? That would be the day. There is nothing Israel can do that will bring peace to the region because the Arabs simply are not peace loving. Without Isreal to wage war against, they'll take on Europe and Islamize the damn place forcing Dave to grow long beard and lose his freedoms and civil liberties. Then him and millions of folks like him will be the first to look to America for rescue.
Lionger, my previous post was not really out of context. I may have strayed a little out of the confines of the argument, but I was merely trying to show a pattern of behavior of a people that share the same ideology because at the end, it is all connected.
I have a lot to say on this topic but one thing is that I really hate confrontational attitudes. It raises my blood levels just reading someone spouting what amounts to almost hate posts!! Ete you are not blunt, you are aggressive confrontational and abusive. Your posts with respect to Dave Hill were very disrespectful, saying he has a strange mind, is deluded, smoking afghan opium, etc. Those were really uncalled for and what were also uncalled for were the other things that Lionger pointed out in his response to your first tirade. Also you are quick to label people as liars. You forget that all of us here even yourself were not at the actual scenes when these events were unfolding or unfolded. We read papers, articles views and observe things. We all form our opinions which of course are different; we air them. The least we can do is respect each others' views rather than take up a destructive attitude, which is just what you have been doing. If we had more like you in strategic positions, the world would have been nothing but a rubble long ago, if you really mean what you write about levelling an entire community. You would be worse than Hitler.
In the story of every conflict, there are two sides to it. Each side has an aspect of right and an aspect of wrong. I mean that no one is absolutely wrong and no one is absolutely right. But one's actions can tilt one either more to the side of right or to the side of wrong, and that is the same with the Arab/ Israeli issue. Depending on where one's main sympathies lie, one sees more of the aspect of what's wrong with the opposing side rather than what's right about it. But we shouldnt get carried away so emotionally that we forget that when all is said and done, we are only by standers and onlookers, and if we mean to say something, we should show that we are mature adults and be polite and diplomatic. After all what we say to each other on this forum is not going to change the status quo of the affairs we discuss.
Another thing Ete, muslims do not take the name of Allah (SWT) very lightly, so please softly softly and dont cause any offence by being sarcastic with the name of God.
AOB: I believe yr testestorone levels are extremely high. That probably accounts for your aggressive stance. You should do something about that.
PPS. I almost think that you and sammy are the same man....he was just as intolerant in his style of posts............
Fine, after all is said and done, perhaps you too can respond to the questions I asked Dave above. Thanks.
As I promised here are some verifiable statements by Israeli leaders which indicate very clearly how they despise the Arabs and always look for ways or make excuses to attack them.
It also shows that the Israelis know very well that they are on land stolen from the Palestinians.
The words speak for themselves.
Please read these statements very carefully.
They tell you why Israel, who had a few soldiers killed or kidnapped, used that as an excuse to pulverise a huge part of a neighbouring country.
I have no intention of responding to the sort of insulting rubbish that Ete seems to think will improve his arguements.
Some famous quotes from Israeli Prime Ministers regarding the Middle East conflict:
"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." - Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.
David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): " If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.
"We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return... The old will die and the young will forget."-David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, July 18, 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar's "Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet," Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.
"We must expel Arabs and take their places." - David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.
"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." - David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.
"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, 'What is to be done with the Palestinian population; Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'? Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979; Rabin's description of the conquest of Lydda, after the completion of Plan Dalet.
"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country." - David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.
"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist." - Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.
"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." - Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.
"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy." - Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971
"I have learned that the state of Israel cannot be ruled in our generation without deceit and adventurism." --Moshe Sharett, Israel's first Foreign Minister and later a Prime Minister (p.51 Simha Flapan, "The Birth of Israel", 1987)
"The state of Israel must invent dangers, and to do this it must adopt the methods of provocation and revenge.... And above all, let us hope for a new war with the Arab countries so that we may finally get rid of our troubles and acquire our space." -From the diary of Moshe Sharett, Israeli's first Foreign Minister from 1948-1956, and Prime Minister from 1954-1956.
"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."-Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.
"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." - Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988
"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...." - Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.
"I would have joined a terrorist organization." - Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.
"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories." Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, tells students at Bar Ilan University, From the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.
--
Quote from: "Ete"Muhsin, that exactly is the problem. This was never about religion, and I think it is important to see clearly through this conflict, rather then muddy up the facts. This problem began when Hebollah killed 8 Israeli soldiers and kidnapped two. Prior to that, Hebollah had been firing rockets into Israel from southern Lebanon right under the nose of the Lebanese government. In any world, that is considered a sign of aggression. So the question I have for you is this, if you were in Israel's shoes, what would you do? Sit and fold your arms while you continually get attacked?
Regarding religion, I am not a religious person. I am someone that sees things for what they are. People have committed insane acts under the name of religion. This is why Lionger and myself said earlier and very clearly, that this is not about religion, but certain people here cannot seperate religion from anything else and as such their argument is clouded.
Haba fellow Ete.
Go back to news and see what first of all engineered this battle. That is all I think I can recomend you to do.
But though, I think asking you a certain question could be an added information in my clarification. Where do they killed and abducted these soldiers, was it on Israel ground or lebanon?
Moreover, to me for a full sane humanbeing to beat chest and announce that he is not a religious person is not a nice idea, perfectly not. I don't want bring in another new argument here but I'm sorry to ask: what's the purpose of your being in this planet?
The source of this problem is Europe's persecution of the Jews from the middle ages to the holocaust. The awful treatment of the Jews forced them into exile and they were given sanctuary by a benevolent muslim world, the Ottoman Turks actually sent ships to rescue Jews from the Spanish inquisition. The holocaust forced the Jews to create the state of Israel as a safe haven for their people.
What makes me very angry is that a guilty Europe agreed that the Jews should have their own country, so did they offer them land in Europe, oh no, they generously decided that the muslims, who had helped the Jews should give up some of their land. Not for one minute do I support the actions of Israel, but I try to explain that after thousands of years of torture, persecution and genocide, the Jews decided enough is enough.
It is a pity that they took their anger out on the muslims who had only tried to help them.
Dave, and I am supposed to read your own rubbish right?
The mere fact that you run away from responding to the questions I posted up there is a clear indication that you are a deceiver. You prefer to run from the truth rather than face them.
The quotes you put up there are fabricated and quite ridicoulous. I wonder how you would expect a rational person to take them seriously.
First off, you quoted David Ben Gurion who appears all saddened, and remorseful that Israel "took Arab" land. Then in the very next quote, you set of quotes, the same man that was so remorseful and unhappy, suddenly appears to be in full support of eliminating the Arabs and taking their so called land. This is so fraudulent and fake.
Muhsin, the purpose of me being on this planet is to live my life, and I am living it. What sort of question is that anyway? I live, I work hard, pay my tax, obey the laws of the land, I do not detonate a bomb in civilian buildings and praise God afterwards. I do not fight my neighbors even if they are totally Godless because it is not my job to impose any kind of will over them. I volunteer for different community help events, I send a chunk of money to family and friends in Nigeria. I also reach out to people I do not know. Is that enough purpose?
Ete
Every quote is totally accurate and genuine. You will have to do better than just call me names when you read something that destroys your biased views.
I will not respond to any other such rubbish but I suggest you seek neutral reporting on this matter from the BBC, Franch or German news reporting and stop swallowing American distortions.
David McEwan Hill
I wanted to remain silent about this topic though i always follow it with keen interest, honestly when i read Husnaa's posts must atimes i felt relief, no need of further reply. but with the recent development i just want to call the attention of Ete, please you should learn to tollerate and respect the views of others. i believe mr. Dave is one of the most objective members of k-online.
so Ete please respect others and others will respect you.
Quote from: "Ete"Dave, and I am supposed to read your own rubbish right?
The mere fact that you run away from responding to the questions I posted up there is a clear indication that you are a deceiver. You prefer to run from the truth rather than face them.
The quotes you put up there are fabricated and quite ridicoulous. I wonder how you would expect a rational person to take them seriously.
First off, you quoted David Ben Gurion who appears all saddened, and remorseful that Israel "took Arab" land. Then in the very next quote, you set of quotes, the same man that was so remorseful and unhappy, suddenly appears to be in full support of eliminating the Arabs and taking their so called land. This is so fraudulent and fake.
Muhsin, the purpose of me being on this planet is to live my life, and I am living it. What sort of question is that anyway? I live, I work hard, pay my tax, obey the laws of the land, I do not detonate a bomb in civilian buildings and praise God afterwards. I do not fight my neighbors even if they are totally Godless because it is not my job to impose any kind of will over them. I volunteer for different community help events, I send a chunk of money to family and friends in Nigeria. I also reach out to people I do not know. Is that enough purpose?
What a wonderful person am I discussing with? Lol
Mr. Ete, you did bula-bula and refused to answer my other question. You last talked about who at first intant attacked who between Isreal&Lab.
I thank God. They yesterday epitomise themselves to all in this globe that they don't want peace in midle east. They mercelessly attacked village of masses, and come on media saying they are hunting for Hizbulla members.
Hum, God is watching and there is life after daeth-I thank God for that.Whatsoever one does, he/she is, either he/she likes or not meet God- the best judge, on the judgement day. And moreover, the truth is
ONE
A very full and unbiased account of Israel's failure in South Lebanon can be found in today's Sunday Herald from Scotland
http://www.sundayherald.com/news
Sorry. Put the wrong page of the Sunday Herald up. Check into "Analysis" on the scroll bar at the top for an account of the real situation vis a vis Hezbollah.
Anyone interested should also read this at Kevin Sites hotzone.
http://hotzone.yahoo.com/b/hotzone/blogs8692
It is about an ex CIA agent admitting to who won and who lost the war. Despite the fact that lebanon suffered huge casualties HesbUllah came out on top, because Israel failed to achieve any of its objectives for going on the defensive.
This article is not anyone on this forum's fabrication. It is from someone who for all intents and purposes should be on the side of the Israelis given his previous background.
If one scrolls down to the end of the article to where other ppl have written in their comments on the piece, one will find that the fifth comment is the David Ben Gurion quote which Dave McEwan Hill wrote and which Ete said was 'fraudulent and fake'.
I dont believe Ben Gurion was saddened or remorseful. To my thinking, he was swaggering in the spirit of 'We the conquerors' when he made that statement and in all certainty it must have been made in private not in public.
Mr. David has done a very good job by providing us with the quotes from the Jewish leaders above. This shows that he has taken bold steps to look at what is happening in todays world or even world history from the other cone angle. But one question remains. Can now Dave see the reason why I made the submission in the other thread that the account of the Holocoust may have been exagerated?
I believe qouting as dave did is very misleading and dangerous. It is always icritical to contextualize statements making snap shots as dave did is wrong. One can also make snap shots of statements or comments made by arab leaders on isreal and they will read like horror stories that will justify the actions of isreal. So i believe we must becareful with the importance given the qoutes by dave except if he gives us the context they were made and shows that the meaning is as portrayed in the statements
I believe qouting as dave did is very misleading and dangerous. It is always icritical to contextualize statements making snap shots as dave did is wrong. One can also make snap shots of statements or comments made by arab leaders on isreal and they will read like horror stories that will justify the actions of isreal. So i believe we must becareful with the importance given the qoutes by dave except if he gives us the context they were made and shows that the meaning is as portrayed in the statements
Mallamt, that is why I never even bothered to respond. Waziri introduced this out of context quoting tactic. Dave soon picked it up and can hardly differentiate now between reality and fiction.
There is very considerable ignorance of events current and in the past showing up in some of the posts in this topic.
There is also evidence of bad feeling beween Moslem and Christian contributers distorting judgements.
Like, for instance,Waziri's silly remaks about the Holocaust. There are over 65million entries on the web about the Holacaust with all the facts available. A few hours reading a few of them provides all the evidence about the over 6million Jews, gypsies and homosexuals murdered by the Nazis.
I challenge Waziri to ask the German Government to give him the facts about the Holocaust.
Mr. David,
German government can only give me the lot of evidence about, Hitler, Nazi, and the masacre he had presided over. But it can never manufacture the evidence that the Holoucaust was more a disaster to the Jews than it was to others like the Gypsies, Blacks, Communists, etc. Remember, what I have said over time was not that Holoucaust did not happen or that Hitler did not exist, or that he was not a racist, facist who was a disaster to all. But that the Holoucaust is being exagerated in favour of the Jews who for long had the plans to usurp the some Arab lands in the Middleast. They used the Holoucaust, with the help of their media houses, to project themselves as the only victims of Hitlers' agression to have deserved special treatment so as to be given Palestine. Period.
Yes, there is an evidence of bad feeling among the Muslims/Christians on this forumn which is a projection of the general feeling among the adherents of the two faiths across the globe. Christians think that whatever is good for the Muslims is bad for them, so also the other way round. This actually is due to the ignorance on the part of the opposing sides about the essense and the meaning of the third force between them. For example, lionger and Ete think, for their ignorance of what Judaism, Zionism and the significance of Israel are to the Jews, the Jews should be sided with agaisnt the Muslims always. This is very wrong. But now that they have admitted on their lack of knowledge in the area of discourse, I think we are making a head way.
Posters on this forum, will remember how many atimes I make posts that tries seeing the worldview of our christians neighbours in a very favourable light. I always say that the difference between Muslims and Christians is in theology NOT politics. Christians and Muslims are the same in questions of morality, politics and ethics, as much different from the Jews, under talmudic prompting, which says:
In the beginning, God created inorganic subtances, organic substances, plants, animals, humanbeings and above all the Jews.
This is in great contrast to the declaration in Islam and Christianity which says: All mankind are equal before the creator.
This is the basic reason why the Jewish government in Israel do not discriminate between the Christian Lebanese and Muslim Lebanese when it comes to killing. They are all GOY, GOYIM, or Gentiles who are not of any lot in the sight of God of Judaism.
QuoteYes, there is an evidence of bad feeling among the Muslims/Christians on this forumn which is a projection of the general feeling among the adherents of the two faiths across the globe. Christians think that whatever is good for the Muslims is bad for them, so also the other way round. This actually is due to the ignorance on the part of the opposing sides about the essense and the meaning of the third force between them. For example, lionger and Ete think, for their ignorance of what Judaism, Zionism and the significance of Israel are to the Jews, the Jews should be sided with agaisnt the Muslims always. This is very wrong. But now that they have admitted on their lack of knowledge in the area of discourse, I think we are making a head way.
Waziri this is a blatant and ridiculous misrepresentation of my stance on this issue. It was you who injected religion into this discussion from the get-go, and it is no wonder that you have at times seemed completely incapable of separating the Israel-Lebanon conflict from religious sectarianism. You do not have to be a Christian to condemn Hezbollah for starting this conflict, nor do you need to be a muslim to condemn Israel for killing 1000 civillians. There is evidence of this very fact on this forum!
I don't know why you entertain the idea that Christians support the Jews just because they don't like Muslims or feel the need to be opposed to them at all times. So with this notion and remembering that I was Christian, you read all my posts on the Israel/Lebanon conflict in this light. Now isn't this wrong? Isn't this the exact tactic you accused me and Ete of using in your tirade against us?
QuoteBut then when some among us deliberately prove themselves allergic to reason always, or atleast colour every issue with the cloak of the person who is making an assertion, then definately these people are sowing the seed of destructing any good sense any debate may make on the forum.
No wonder you kept reminding me of the published opinions of the obscure, supposedly christian woman Alice Smith in Time Mag. from over 17 years ago. Were you trying to show me that its possible for Christians to oppose the Jews? Of course there are many Christians who share such views; so what? IMHO, they are wrong! And I trust that there are many muslims like our own alhaji aminu who can apportion some blame on Hezbollah, and IMHO they are right! Now what are you trying to say here, that it should be Christians and Muslims against the Jews? That is plain mob mentality and is very wrong! Let's stop this silly posturing and look at issues objectively. While I have sometimes cringed at some of Ete's comments regarding Muslims/Arabs, that will not stop me from recognising that his stance and aminu's on this issue is factually sound for the most part, unlike that of many other responders who seem more interested in attacking the larger specter of Israel's supposedly illegitimate existence rather than tackling the pertinent issues that led to this disastrous confrontation in South Lebanon.
Btw I have no ill-feelings towards Muslims in general, and have never expressed such on this forum. and if anyone feels I do then he should point out the offending post. Peace,
lionger[/quote]
Ok, Lionger, read what you quoted from me above without your name mentioned in it, and still reply me. Try to see the truth in the statements I made and respond to me without involving yourself. It is then, you will see yourself more as addressing the issue than depending yourself.
QuoteYes, there is an evidence of bad feeling among the Muslims/Christians on this forumn which is a projection of the general feeling among the adherents of the two faiths across the globe. Christians think that whatever is good for the Muslims is bad for them, so also the other way round. This actually is due to the ignorance on the part of the opposing sides about the essense and the meaning of the third force between them. For example, some, for their ignorance of what Judaism, Zionism and the significance of Israel are to the Jews, the Jews should be sided with agaisnt the Muslims always. This is very wrong.
Also for the records lets see who relly started the agression. Lionger claims it was Lebanon others say it was Israel. The following is what my sister wrote in another forum, with clear cut sources and links. Happy reading:
"Few readers will be aware that on June 24, the day
before the "kidnapping", Israeli commandos had entered
the Gaza Strip and captured two Palestinians claimed
by Israel to be members of Hamas. (See our Guest Media
Alert by Jonathan Cook, 'Kidnapped by Israel';
http://www.medialens.org/alerts/06/060630_kidnapped_by_israel.php)
In addition,
On June 8, the Israeli army assassinated the recently
appointed Palestinian head of the security forces of
the Interior Ministry, Jamal Abu Samhadana, and three
others. On June 9, Israeli shells killed seven members
of the same family picnicking on Beit Lahiya beach.
Some 32 others were wounded, including 13 children.
On June 13, an Israeli plane fired a missile into a
busy Gaza City street, killing 11 people, including
two children and two medics. On June 20, the Israeli
army killed three Palestinian children and injured 15
others in Gaza with a missile attack. On June 21, the
Israelis killed a 35-year old pregnant woman, her
brother, and injured 11 others, including 6 children.
Then came the Israeli capture of two Palestinians,
followed by the Palestinian capture of the Israeli
soldier and the killing of the two other soldiers.
After the beach deaths, Hamas, the ruling party in the
Palestinian Authority, broke an 18-month ceasefire and
joined other militant groups in firing Kassam rockets
into Israel. The Financial Times reported on June 23
that the missiles, principally targeted towards the
Israel town of Sderot, have caused damage and some
casualties but no fatalities in the recent barrages. A
June 29 Guardian leader noted that the home-made
Kassam rockets are "not in the same league as Israel's
hi-tech (though not always accurate) weaponry".
(Leader, 'Storm over Gaza,' The Guardian, June 29,
2006)
In an interview for Democracy Now, Norman Finkelstein,
Professor of Political Science at DePaul University in
Chicago, compared the lethality of Israeli and
Palestinian weapons:
"Since Israel withdrew from Gaza in September 2005
'til today, the estimates run between 7,000 and 9,000
heavy artillery shells have been shot and fired into
Gaza. On the Palestinian side, the estimates are
approximately 1,000 Kassam missiles, crude missiles,
have been fired into Israel. So we have a ratio of
between seven and nine to one.
"Let's look at casualties. In the last six months,
approximately 80 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza
due to Israel artillery firing... There have been
exactly eight Israelis killed in the last five years
from the Kassam missiles. Again, we have a huge
disproportion, a huge discrepancy." ('AIPAC v. Norman
Finkelstein: A Debate on Israel's Assault on Gaza,'
June 29, 2006;
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/06/29/1420258)
Finkelstein also compared the situation with regard to
hostages: "let's talk about those 9,000 Palestinians
who are effectively hostages being held by Israel.
1,000 of them are administrative detainees...
Administrative detainees who are being held without
any charges or trial. And the other 8,000 are being
held after military courts have convicted them, almost
always on the basis of confessions which were
extracted by torture. So if we're going to look simply
at the numbers, we have one hostage on the Palestinian
side, and effectively we have about 9,000 on the
Israeli side." Earlier this month, the Israeli human rights
organisation, B'Tselem, published fatality figures for
June 2006 in the Occupied Territories and Israel.
Forty-two Palestinians, six of them minors, were
killed by Israeli armed forces. Twenty-four of the
fatalities were bystanders not involved in the
conflict.
(http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/EKOI-6RC53K?OpenDocument&rc=3&cc=isr
)
B'Tselem's figures do not include the seven members of
the Ghaliya family killed on Beit Lahiya beach.
However, a June 17 report by Donald Macintyre in the
Independent "cast doubt on crucial elements of the
conclusion of the military investigation which
absolved Israel of any responsibility". (Macintyre,
'Hospital casts doubt on Israel's version of attack
that killed seven Palestinians,' The Independent, June
17, 2006)
According to B'Tselem, in May 2006, 36 Palestinians
were killed by Israeli security forces, one Israeli
civilian died from injuries he sustained the previous
month. At time of writing, Israeli soldiers have
killed a total of six Palestinians since the
re-invasion.
Collective Punishment - Frailer Palestinians Are Dying
Having killed many more people in recent weeks,
Israel's response to the soldier's capture has been to
heap yet more suffering on the Palestinian people.
Israel re-invaded Gaza with 5,000 troops on June 27
and then bombed Gaza's only electrical generating
station, so depriving half a million people of
electricity. Human Rights Watch commented:
"The destruction of the power station could quickly
cause a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, as electricity is
essential to power the water system, sewage treatment,
and medical services". ('Gaza: Israeli Offensive Must
Limit Harm to Civilians,' June 29, 2006;
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/06/29/isrlpa13662.htm)
In the same attack, Israel destroyed three bridges,
and the main water pipes for two refugee camps. Will
Hutton noted in the Observer: "Sealing off access to
water and food can only inflict acute discomfort on
the people there; already, frailer Palestinians are
dying." (Hutton, 'Israel's act of war is inexcusable,'
The Observer, July 2, 2006)
The Guardian wrote: "The electricity supply to half of
Gaza has been cut, and all supplies of fuel and food
have been halted." Amazingly, the same article added:
"Israeli aircraft and forces operated without harming
anyone." (Conal Urquhart, 'Israel rounds up Hamas
politicians,' The Guardian, June 29, 2006)
Prior to these attacks, Save the Children's UK
Programme Manager Jan Coffey reported that 78% of the
population in Gaza were living below the poverty line
with 10% of children under five suffering from chronic
malnutrition. In June, the World Food Programme
reported that 51% of Palestinians - 2 million people -
were unable to meet their food needs without aid, and
that in Gaza, "the situation is becoming critical".
(Justin Podur, 'Summer rains,' ZNet;
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=10500)
In a rare departure from Western silence, the Swiss
Foreign Ministry declared this week: "A number of
actions by the Israeli defense forces in their
offensive against the Gaza Strip have violated the
principle of proportionality and are to be seen as
forms of collective punishment, which is forbidden."
(Bradley S. Klapper, 'Switzerland: Israel violating
law in Gaza,' Seattle Post-Intelligencer, July 3,
2006;
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1103AP_Switzerland_Israel.html)
The Swiss statement referred to provisions of the 1949
treaty of the Geneva Conventions, regarded as the
cornerstone of international law on the obligations of
warring and occupying powers. A key section reads:
"It is prohibited to attack, destroy, remove or render
useless objects indispensable to the survival of the
civilian population." (Cited, 'PCHR Warns of a
Humanitarian Crisis in the Gaza Strip,' July 2, 2006;
http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/PressR/English/2006/66-2006.htm) ''
Waziri, please stick to the subject. The subject is the Israel/Lebanon, not Israel in Gaza. Why bring up Gaza? Or are you trying to say that Hezbollah attacked Israel in response to Israel's actions in Gaza (which I agree is disproportionate, as the Swiss put it)? When did did they say that? No diversionary tactics; I'm talking about South Lebanon. It is obvious that Hezbollah started this conflict by crossing the border and abducting two soldiers, killing three. To try and connect this issue with the one in Gaza is simply obfuscation.
Do not read meanings Lionger, the conflict in Southern Lebanon between the Hizbullah and Israel did not or begin with the action of the Hizbullah on that fateful day alone. Hizbullah fight a battle for Arabs not Lebanon and they strike at Israel when Israel does anything they believe to be wrong to other Arabs anywhere not in Lebanon only. That is the essense of that post by my sister. If you choose to see it as diversionary, you are suited for that, even though it wouldn't change the reality of things as they are.
Ok, this is rather confusing now, and I am not sure most people here can make head or tail of this new argument. There was nothing said before about Hezbollah's action and the Gaza incident. We seem to be making up stories as we go along, and this further diminishes this discourse. I agree 100% with lionger that this is diversionary tactic aimed at clouding the real issue.
Just so we can be clear waziri, are you stating categorically that Hezbollah is the official army of the Arabs? Are you saying Hezbollah directly or indirectly fights for the entire Arab World? If so, do the entire Arab World endorse them and accept this arrangement?
At last I am in total agreement with Waziri on one point. Of course Hezbollah is a reaction to Israeli behaviour in Gaza!
The whole world knows that - except perhaps Ete and Lionger (and the American liars) who have plunged the Middle East into total chaos.
I have the benefit of knowing personally Scottish soldiers who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan as part of the British army.
The reports they bring of what is actually going on would make you sick and particularly their reports of the absolutely bestial behavioiur of American troops to Iraqi women and children is horrifying.
The behaviour of America and Israel in the Middle East has more than trebled the size of Hezbollah over the last three years.
Apart from any moral considerations this is profoundly stupid.
Dave and Waziri,
Just answer this question, when did Hezbollah state so clearly that they attacked Israel in response to the latter's aggression in Gaza, in a sense that 'the whole world knows this'? None of the news sources you provided shows this. I thought Hezbollah instigated the attack to exact the release of Arab prisoners in Israel. Isn't this what you yourself said, Waziri? Why are we now talking about Gaza?
Perhaps you and Dave should read this article before putting me and Ete in league with 'American liars':
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5173078.stm
Excerpt:
Hezbollah is seeking the return of Palestinian, Lebanese and other Arab prisoners held in Israeli jails.
Mr Nasrallah said any invasion of Lebanese territory would be met by force.
"The prisoners in our hands will not return to Israel except through indirect negotiations and exchange of prisoners and peace," he said.
"If the Israelis are thinking about carrying out a military operation to recover them they are dreaming."
"We are not seeking escalation, we don't want to lead the region into war. However, if the Israeli enemy wants escalation, we are ready for the confrontation."
He said what Hezbollah had done was the "only feasible path" to freeing detainees in Israeli jails, and "our natural right".
The operation had been planned for several months, he added, long before the capture of Cpl Shalit in Gaza.
Lionger
You make the point well. However I did not say that Hezbollah's recent battle with Israel was because of Israel's behaviour in Gaza.
I said that Hezbollah was formed because of Isreal's behaviour to Palestinians in Gaza (and other Arabs in other places).
That is quite another point.
All Arabs take themselves as one race, no matter what country they reside in. It is called pan-Arabism.
If you harm an Arab in one place all Arabs everywhere are your enemy.
The very sad fact is that the only measurable effect of Israel's failed attack on Lebanon (apart from many dead innocents) has been to manufacture even more enemies for themselves and hugely increase recruitment into Hezbollah (and Hamas). This is political stupidity of the highest order and many even inside Israel know this.