Jews and Muslims

[Waziri]

So Mr. Fulcher , now I get the logic, I made reference to David Duke twice and that made me his disciple.

Now since you are making reference to my  post of june 10, I will only lie in the wait for you to make another reference to another post of mine again. Then I will conclude that you are my disciple. How do you like that?


Mr. Fulcher, do not be a defeated sore. You read David Duke, when you see he is telling the truth you believe him. When you see he is not telling the truth you disprove him. This is the tradition in any intellectual debate, so do not talk of David Duke using Waziri. David Duke knows very well, perhaps more than you do,  that we can match him wit by wit, edge of brain by edge of brain. All we say is let us all learn to be fair to one another. When a truth is told we say it is the truth. I think this will make us appear to be more civilised.

Hear Dukes speaking:

"every terrorist involved in the September attacks, which caused the death of thousands of Americans on September 11, should suffer the ultimate punishment for his crime. No person or nation that commits terrorism against America should escape punishment. But now I am going to make a statement that may well shock you.
 
If you agree that those who commit terrorist acts against America should be punished, then America should put Israel at the top of our hit list; for in this article, I will prove that Israel has committed deliberate acts of murderous terrorism against America and has responsibility for the carnage of September 11, 2001. I will show that Israel has committed more continuing terrorism in the last half century than any other nation on earth. Then, I will expose Israel?s record of terrorism and treachery against the United States of America. Finally, I will show the shocking facts proving that Israel's extremist government, under the leadership of mass-murderer Ariel Sharon, treacherously abetted the 9-11 catastrophe. Israel?s acts of terrorism and treachery against America have not only gone unpunished, but have been rewarded by politicians who have treasonously betrayed the United States."

Yes, he says he would prove, so do not worry. Listen to him. If he proves... we  are all waiting for your disprove here.


And it appears like you do not know that theory of evolution long ago left the areas of biology only to start commenting on social sciences? Read your books thoroughly. You will see Social Darwinism which brought about the reason: Survival of the fittest.

So you dare mention big time killers like Joe Stalin and Pol Pot. Go and find out now who armed them with that philosophy which demanded those killings.

You will see that they were the Jews like Karl Marx who wrote the theories and the leaders of the Russians Bolshevik Revolution who actualized it .

So America is yet to see the Jews gassing the Palestinians. Were you not the one  who said:

"But what do you do about someone who seems to want to persecute the Palestinians the way the Germans persecuted the Jews in the mid-1930s? "

or the masacre of Sabra and Shatilla is not enough a proof?

You the Americans, you keep shooting us on the knees curbing or progress only to reiterate, saying it is we who are not progressive in thought.

Let you know that it is a tide which sooner or later will turn against you. Mhm... I hear Mr. David here speaking.

This is only our fervent plea:

In the olden times every leader worked for the good of his own nation alone. The others were considered adversaries, or subjects of exploitation. There was no regard to any value but that of superiority and personal glory. For the sake of this, many morals, ideals and values were wasted; many unethical means were justified; many uncounted souls were made to perish. Lies, deceit, treachery, cruelty reigned as the signs of sagacity and the proof of greatness. Today, this view needs to be changed from its very source. Today, the greatness of a civilized leader ought to be measured by the universality of his vision and his sense of responsibility towards all humankind. The developed world and the Third World are but one family. Each human being bears responsibility towards it by the degree of what he has obtained of knowledge, wisdom, and civilization. I would not be exceeding the limits of my duty if I told thom in the name of the Third World: Be not spectators to our miseries. You have to play therein a noble role befitting your status. From your position of superiority you are responsible for any misdirection of animal, or plant, to say nothing of Man, in any of the four corners of the world. We have had enough of words. Now is the time for action. It is time to end the age of brigands and usurers. We are in the age of leaders responsible for the whole globe. Save the enslaved in the Africa? Save the famished in Africa! Save the Palestinians from the bullets and the torture! Nay, save the Israelis from profaning their great spiritual heritage! Save the ones in debt from the rigid laws of economy! Draw their attention to the fact that their responsibility to Mankind should precede their commitment to the laws of a science that Time has perhaps overtaken.

[Eskimo]

Hey Jack, I just cant understand your last post about Guns and whatever by I guest you re talking to Dave..but come clear of this issue.
Are you seriously saying the occupation of Palestine by Israel and the double standard of American policy is right? if yes then you aint the type of person I think you are.
In my thinking I dont think suicide bombing is good but what do you expect the palestinians to do when they have no weapons. I am a supporter of two state not because I think israel cannot be destroyed...America will not allow it nor will Germany...are those name the synonym of GOD...I wonder!
Let there be two state for now so that the bloodshed could stop.

I hate to tell you that america is a hypocrite and the most wicked people on earth...sometimes I smile when I remember Sept 11... The attack a country for one reason and refrain from doing so by another.
Let me remind you of history. Genghis Khan and his son Hulagu conquared muslims only to be conquered by Islam. Allah set them against themselves and they didnt enjoy their conquest.
That is what is happening to America and Britain now. It will happen to Israel too sooner or later.

[Jack_Fulcher]

Hi Eskimo!  Nice to hear from you.  

I cannot understand how you might think that I support the occupation by Israel.  I think I write pretty clearly (even though my spelling is attrocious, right Dave?).  I think that I have said elsewhere on this board that I think what Israel is doing is wrong, and that our support is one-sided.  I've even tried to explain why our support is as biased as it is.  Also remember that, during the Cold War, the Arabs and Egyptians sided with the Soviets, so we appreciated having a democracy like Israel that sided with us in the Middle East.

To be clear, I think that the occupied territories should be returned and that the Palestinians should be given aid to help it build a state.  I do not, however, think that walking into a market, wrapped in dynamite, and blowing yourself and others up is in any way defensible or even understandable.  I know the argument that they're desperate and have no other way, but this is nonsense.  To blow up children and grandmothers only lowers them to the level of their tormentors, and makes them appear as monsters.

Note that the Irish never used suicide bombers.  They just used guns and muscle.  The Japanese used suicides toward the end of the war, but this was not a general policy.  For some reason, the Muslims make heroes of these kids who kill themselves.  This is obscene and makes the Muslims look irrational.

Do you believe that, once the Palestinians are given their state, the Arabs will give up on their dream of destroying Israel?  Everyone on this board who believes this raise your hand.  (Only one hand, al-Hamza!)  When Arafat talks to Americans, he says that all they want is their state, and they will leave Israel in peace.  When he talks to the Palestinians, he calls for the destruction of Israel.  So this will be a continuing problem, and is one reason Israel is hesitant to remove the settlements or hand over the land that they want.  We need a change of heart on both sides, and the old war horses need to die.  Sharon is a monster who needs to go, and I think that the people in our own State Department understand this.  Note, however, that whenever there are talks or some movement toward a settlement of the issue, the bombers come out of the woodwork and blow up another cafe.    

I agree that America is a hypocrite, but this is no different than any other great power in history.  We've preferred the stability of the dictatorships, like the royal family Saudi Arabia, the Shaw of Iran, or Sadam in Iraq, than the uncertainty of democracy.  This has lead to some bad results.  I think that Americans are starting to learn this, and maybe we can change this in the future.

Glad you're back, Eskimo.  Your contributions are valuable here.  Jack

[al_hamza]

yes jack, you are right.
i wish for nothing less than complete withdrawal of the jews by the people who put them there.
i cant wait to see all those palestinians given back thier homes, thier lands from which they were driven.
just the same way i would want to see you return to your home when you are driven by an occupational army.

you see it as absurd to commit suicide attacks?
when you are left with no choice, your houses bombed, your leaders tortured, your business restricted. Your father killed in front of you, your aunt giving birth in front of jewish soldiers that wont allow her to a hospital through the checkpoints, and dies from bleeding (which wasnt necessary) or when your 12year old brother gets killed for stoning the tanks that wouldnt allow normal life to continue, or when a bakery next door was attacked under the illusion that it was a bomb assembling factory, thereby causing hardship cos no food would be available then, seeing your mother and father fight because there's no job to earn money under the occupational forces. Or your graduate brother/sister can find no job. What would you do? if you knew there was no end to it, because a country like the US supports israel and no one comes to the help of the palestinians? when you know that those who thought that they could have better lives in nieghbouring countries where treated as second class citizens, not given jobs and no nationality? or when you know that even they are not safe from the claws of the satan, e.g 1983 massacre by ariel sharon and donald rumsfield, and the today attack of syria by israel. what would you do?

look jack, even a militant muslim (which you would say i am) am against suicide attacks including sept 11, but these people as President Musharraf said in his UN speach dec2001 "are left with no choice" you yourself are the ones that breeded them and you must face the tune now.

lemme give you a small example.
I have a friend that is palestini, b4 israel came, his grandfather was the emir (king) of an important city now under israel, and a city which israel shows as its own on world maps. today he's a second class citizen in a nieghbouring country, he is suffering to make ends meet. No money, he's a graduate in civil engineering, not a diploma holder, and has vast knowledge in computers, his education brought the family under $5000 debt, for you, thats chicken change but believe me for many people that's hell lot of money, as an engineer now he's earning less than $200 dollars a month and has to take care of a family of 6, including a mother, and educating his younger brothers, how can he do that in $200???  and believe me, this guy am telling you about is probably living a lavish life compared to the palestinians in israel control. His 12year old brother will grow up knowing if isarael hadnt been there, he'd have a much better life. May God help him, i love him as much as i would have my own junior if i had one.
so hands down, the suicides are your own products.
and you'll continue to face them

no compromise, complete withdrawal, nothing less..

[Eskimo]

How can there two states and peace when Israel is still creating more suicide bomber from Palestines with its constant missile attacks on the so called targets and recently is building a dividin wall in the palestinians land while US, EU and UN are saying nothing!
Jack you are like any human being - peace lover- and you will not close your eyes to justice even if its against you.
cant you Americans with your so called "government of the people" do something about it.
the palestines want peace they are tired of the killings!!!

[lionger]

Lol..Jack can speak for himself but judging by your responses I can't say that u guys are actually reading what he is saying.
Quick question: many of you take this issue very personally. Would this be the case if the palestinians were not muslims?

[Anonymous]

Al Hamza

Peace (which I meant to say last night).
I agree with every word of your post today - and there was no abuse in it. I suspect Jack agrees with most of it as well.
I have just watched BBC Panorama's expose of Guantamamo Bay. It would be good to have it shown worldwide. It puts US into the same league as the Nazis. If I was an American I would be dying of shame, but I don't suppose it will be shown in America. In Nigeria I knew and worked with Americans in education and from the USIS in Kano and for a while I managed the affairs of a soul band from Columbus, Ohio who got stranded penniless in Kano (Horrizzon USA - does anyone remember them?). They were pretty ordinary and decent people, most Americans. They must be getting seriously deceived by their government if they don't know what the US is doing and how hated it is becoming across the world and even in Europe now. The world is entering a very dangerous period and the clumsy US is the major danger to all of us. God know what Israel's attack on Syria is going to lead to.
Lionger - I am not a muslim but I weep for Palestine.

[al_hamza]

lioger,
quick question, where in the muslim world are the christians bieng tortured? especially to the extent of bieng forced to pick up guns and fight?

the Nedherlands and australians helped east timors with guns and bombs to fight who? thier muslim controllers (indonesians right)

an australian priest and his two sons were killed by a hindu mob in india some 2yrs ago, the starter of the mob that resulted in the death of those three innocents was executed recently, how about the the hindu's that caused the destruction of Baber's Mosque? an ancient Mosque which held great respect from the indian muslims, plus the deaths of thousands of muslims in 1991 (the year i guess it was brought down) and the recent 2,000 deaths of muslims in gujrat (same state, official figures) no one caught, no one executed. Which country came to the help of these muslims except Pakistan? So why shouldnt anyone concerned with humanity not be concerned? and especially Muslims? why shouldnt we be emmotional about these things?

all around


1)Xen chiang province china, who's forced to drink alcohol and consume pig flesh? Muslims.

2) Gujrat india, which indians are segregated and thier area called "Pakistan" and burnt alive frequently by politicians to win elections? Muslims.

3) Kashmir india, which people have been refused thier rightful choice to be independant or join Pakistan? 90,000 so far killed, the rest tortured daily, countless rapes daily, buildings destroyed, farm area ravaged? Muslims.

4) Palestine, that one is so common knowledge no need to talk of it, Muslims.

5) Chechenya, Russia control, the whole way of life completely ravaged, who faced it ? Muslims

6) Philipnie south islands, who face war games of Philipines and the US? Muslims

want more?

[lionger]

al hamza,

quick question, where in the muslim world are the christians bieng tortured? especially to the extent of bieng forced to pick up guns and fight?

Do u really want me to give a blunt answer? It could create an uproar. That should be enough to hint the answer, but I may still give it in plain terms regardless of the consequences since we have decided to throw objectivity out the window.
And btw, Christians should and would not (except for those ppl in northern Ireland) pick up weapons to fight against their oppressors, cuz that is not the way of Christ. The Bible says that if we are slapped on one cheek, turn the other also.

[Eskimo]

Christians should and would not (except for those ppl in northern Ireland) pick up weapons to fight against their oppressors, cuz that is not the way of Christ. The Bible says that if we are slapped on one cheek, turn the other also.  

Yes Lionger you are damn right! and your opinion would nt cause any uproar.
christian all over the world do not take weapons against their oppressors...
EXCEPT for those in northern Ireland as you said.
also EXCEPT in Basque region of Spain
EXCEPT in East Timor of Indonesia
EXCEPT in Southern Sudan
EXCEPT...
May be where they are the oppressors places like Philiphine and Chechnya.
Most of the time they are the big bullies US to Afghanistan and Iraq.
I guess you can only turn the other cheek if you are slapped already..."but when you are not you should strike first"...do not rise and take arms against your oppressor but rather be the oppressor.
That is the rule.

[lionger]

Hi Eskimo, thanks for your response. ?Sorry if I hurt u in any way. Note that I also said Christians 'should' not take up arms to kill their oppressors. I don't know whether Islam has this idea of 'passive resistance' too. In all the examples you cited; and in the one i cited, this is the rule: politics. Unlike some of us, I can see that some of these conflicts are actually being spurred by politics and religion has just become the fuel for the fire. That is the difference!!

Since you actually take offense to me somewhat, please define the terms 'christian world' and 'muslim world' i.e. tell me what countries these worlds consist of.

[Eskimo]

I did nt know I sounded that bitter. No I aint hurt by your opinion or what you say after that all is your opinion.
I am sorry for sounding bitter.

KNOW WHAT: Never hesitate to say anything if it is not abusive...who cares if somebody doesnt like it

It is difficult nowadays to define what Muslim World and its  Christian counterpart is..most of those countries occupied by muslim do not follow muslim law as should be...I guess the counter is more "rotten" religion wise.

But roughly we can call them muslim or christian depending on those living in the country (predominantly)

If Palestine were not Muslim I wouldnt have bother much about their plight and America and western world wouldnt have acted the way the do now, nor would you act in the way you do too.

[Eskimo]

I did nt know I sounded that bitter. No I aint hurt by your opinion or what you say after that all is your opinion.
I am sorry for sounding bitter.

KNOW WHAT: Never hesitate to say anything if it is not abusive...who cares if somebody doesnt like it

It is difficult nowadays to define what Muslim World and its  Christian counterpart is..most of those countries occupied by muslim do not follow muslim law as should be...I guess the counter is more "rotten" religion wise.

But roughly we can call them muslim or christian depending on those living in the country (predominantly)

If Palestine where not Muslim I wouldnt have bother much about their plight and America and western world wouldnt have acted the way the do now, nor would you act in the way you do too.

[Eskimo]

I did nt know I sounded that bitter. No I aint hurt by your opinion or what you say after that all is your opinion.
I am sorry for sounding bitter.

KNOW WHAT: Never hesitate to say anything if it is not abusive...who cares if somebody doesnt like it

It is difficult nowadays to define what Muslim World and its  Christian counterpart..most of those countries occupied by muslim do not follow muslim law as should be...I guess the counterpart is more "rotten" religion wise.

But roughly we can call them muslim or christian depending on those living in the country (predominantly)

If Palestine were not Muslim I wouldnt have bother much about their plight and America and western world wouldnt have acted the way the do now, nor would you act in the way you do too.

[Eskimo]

I did nt know I sounded that bitter. No I aint hurt by your opinion or what you say after that all is your opinion.
I am sorry for sounding bitter.

KNOW WHAT: Never hesitate to say anything if it is not abusive...who cares if somebody doesnt like it

It is difficult nowadays to define what Muslim World and its  Christian counterpart..most of those countries occupied by muslim do not follow muslim law as should be...I guess the counterpart is more "rotten" religion wise.

But roughly we can call them muslim or christian depending on those living in the country (predominantly)

If Palestine were not Muslim I wouldnt have bother much about their plight and America and western world wouldnt have acted the way the do now, nor would you act in the way you do too.