Jews and Muslims

[Waziri]

In the other thread Mr Fulcher insinuated that there is some sentiments on this board that Hitler was right in what he did to the Jews. That is the sole reason why I come up with this so that we can try to understand, stand but certainly not overstand the Jewish and Muslims questions as they are right from the on set.

First let us see what the chairman of the school of Oriental Studies, Hebrew University, Jerusalem  says  about our religions:

"In a recent  French-Algerian  publication, Islam has been characterized as Judaism with universalic tendencies. There is some truth in this definition"

Prof. S.D. Goitein in his book -   Arabs and Jews, page 35.

About our attitude to the Jews he says:

"the jewish historians of the nineteen century, as in the case of Graetz(the authour of a classic ten-volume  history of Jews), who were deeply embittered by the contrast between enlightened ideas of that century and the denial of civic rights to the jews in many european countries, pointed out most emphatically that the legal and actual position of the jews during the middle ages was much better in muslim-arab countries than in christian europe; and the 'golden age' of judaism in muslim spain has become a phrase which has found its why even to the most popular accounts of jewish history."

Jews and Arabs, page 7  

Why then Mr Fulcher thinks and believes we are happy with what Hitler did to the Jews?????

For God's sake is not the question the other way round? That is,  why is it that the Jews are happy doing to us what was done to them by Hitler?

Hear this good-seeking Jew:

 
"How was it possible I wondered , for people  endowed with so much creative intelligence as the jews to think of the zionist-arab conflict in jewish terms alone?

Did they not realize that the problem of the in palestine could, in the long run, be solved only through friendly cooperation with the arabs?

Were they so hopelessly blind to the painful future which their policy must bring?- to the struggles, the bitterness and the hatred which the jewish island, even if temporarily successful, would forever remain exposed in the midst of a hostile Arab see?

And how strange, I thought, that a nation which had suffered so many wrongs in the course of its long and sorrowful diaspora was now, in single-minded pursuit of its own goal, ready to inflict a grievous wrong on another nation, too, THAT WAS INNOCENT OF ALL THAT PAST JEWISH SUFFERING.

Such a phenomenon, I knew, was not unknown to history; but it made me, nonetheless, very sad to see it enacted before my eyes"

Leopold Weiss is a jounalist, Autrian-German Jew, then A special Correspondent with Frankfurter Zeitung.

Okay now Mr Fulcher why all these, why  are they constantly on a fight with us?

I think it is these things we are suppose to be discussing here. We are suppose to be raising placards saying : " The world is watching" to them, not to our implementation of Shari'a which suggests stonning only when a crime is perpetrated.

[Jack_Fulcher]

Mr. Waziri,

I was referring to an exchange I saw in your "War on Iraq" thread, among Ibro2q, lionger, and Amin, on 3/19/03 and 3/20/03.  To their credit, lionger and Amin disagreed strongly with the views of Ibro2q about "Hitler did the right thing."  I was just disturbed that someone with the intelligence  generally exhibited by the posters in this Forum would suggest that Hitler was anything less than a monster and disaster for Europe, Jews, Gypsies, other "undesirables," and the Germans themselves.

As for why the Muslims and Jews fight so much, I really do not know.  I am neither a Muslim nor a Jew, and have not paid much attention to the conflict in the Middle East, so I can only guess.  It seems to me that the insertion of Jews into what is now Israel by the Europeans after World War II was an insane act of a guilty conscience.  Certainly neither the British nor the Americans paid much attention to the problems of the Jews in the mid-1930s, and there was much anti-semitism in both countries (and throughout Europe), and we all turned the other way when we got reports of harassment, oppressive new laws, and the occasional murder of Jews.  However, the revelation of what Hitler and the Germans had done to them in the concentration camps during the war was an immense shock which made it difficult to ignore their cries for a homeland where they could be masters of their own fate.  For centuries the Jews had been persecuted by their host European countries, and for most of us this was a new fact that made us ashamed, I guess (I was born after the war, so I can only guess how people felt from reading history books).  So we said:  Why not give them their own country in an area they are interested in, like Palestine?  The attitudes of those already living in the area were not considered much, I guess, or the British assumed that most were nomads and did not have much claim to the land anyway.  Who would want to own that stinking desert, so why not give it to the Jews and get them out of our hair and make them happy?  This seems typical of the thinking at the time, as silly as it sounds now.

I am making a lot of this up, and I am sure there are millions of people who read this Forum regularly who know much more than I do about this history.  My attitude has always been to let them fight, because they seem to hate each other so much anyway.  Not very enlightened, I admit.  But what do you do about someone who seems to want to persecute the Palestinians the way the Germans persecuted the Jews in the mid-1930s?  And what do you do about someone who makes heroes of kids who wrap themselves in dynamite and blow up other kids on a bus or in a market?  Both sides seem to be out of control with religious and class hatred.  I agree that the $4 billion of aid we send to Israel every year is wrong, even though we send $2 billion to Egypt each year as well (something that came out of the Camp David accords with Sadat, I think).  There are many Americans who are opposed to sending anything to either country, but it would be impossible to stop this because of the strength of the Jewish lobbies in this country.  The Jews have worked hard since they started to come here at the beginning of the 20th century.  They value education, and becoming a doctor or lawyer is one of the most cherished goals of a young Jew.  Since this is a democracy, their wealth and organization has paid off.  They can be counted on to vote and to donate to candidates who they like, so they have great influence.  If Muslims were to put the same efforts into developing their careers and fortunes, which is available to them in this country, they too could wield influence, but they have not done this yet.

So we agree on this basic point, Mr. Waziri.  The actions of the state of Israel are bad.  One of the Jewish people I play bridge with told me that Israel will have to answer for their treatment of the Palestinians some day.  Many Jews in this country are uncomfortable with what Israel has done under Sharon, especially the settlements.  However, they also realize that the Arabs are generally in favor of destroying Israel, not living with them.  Hence the Israelis believe they need to be tough with folks who are trying to blow them up, bus by bus, and who are funded by such "moderate" Arabs as the Saudis.  Until both sides get tired of fighting, like in Ireland, we are likely to have a mess there for some time.

I will respond to your other post in the "adultry" thread, Mr. Waziri.  I am getting dizzy trying to keep up with all of these new threads you create.  

Jack

[lionger]

Now there's a balanced view on the subject. I must admit in defense of the forumnites here that only Ibro2g ever went that far. However, I was quite surprised by the fact that only Amin and I responded  in opposition to his surprising outburst. Yet look how ppl lambasted FDS' distasteful debut, or even earlier, when newmember2 posted his inglorious 'are the Fulani holding back the Hausa' article. Aren't all these comments guilty of the same thing? Are bigotry and hatred are acceptable as long as it is directed towards americans, christians, israel - any 'perceived' enemies of Islam? Waziri it is perfectly understandable that Israel's actions are roundly condemned on this forum, but then y the inconspicuous silence over religious fundamentalism factor? All the times I have seen the middle east issue discussed on this forum, hardly have I  heard anyone condemn militant 'islamist groups for killing innocents in Israel. Muslim deaths are undertandably more painful to bear but murder is still wrong regardless of who the victim and villain are. We should condemn evil wherever we see it; even if it means going against our own flesh and blood.

[Eskimo]

There are good jews as there are also bad muslim.
did u hear of those Israeli Pilot that refused to fly any craft destined to drop bombs in Palestine lands.

Jews and Muslim are fighting each coz US and Europe want them to. And even now if they wish the war can stop. Recently the palestinian rep in UN accused US of double standard in its middle east policy and he is damn right.

When Spain was reconquered by Isabella both Jews and muslims were subject of persecution by the new lords. so I believe jews and muslims have somethings in common.

[al_hamza]

i will soon get an Ayah from the Qur'an with its translation, and it will be a sorry fact if any muslim on board opposes it.
Its a Verse which probably is amongst the reason if not the top of the reasons why america wants Saudi to stop printing Qur'an (axtaghfurullah)

[Waziri]

Lionger we are all humanbeings . How do you expext me to respond to that topic condemning what Hitler did to the jews when the jews are doing the same to me now?

How do I just raise my voice saying Hitler was wrong in the past when the same kind of wrong perpetrated in the past is being done in the present?

Aint it better to attack the present wrong than to start scrolling searching for the past wrong to condemn or praise?

Didn't you see in the above quotations how they confess that I have given them more place during my "tenure" as the leader of the world than they are giving me now?I will come back to the other aspects you raised later.

For Mr Fulcher who says "As for why the Muslims and Jews fight so much, I really do not know. I am neither a Muslim nor a Jew, and have not paid much attention to the conflict in the Middle East, so I can only guess."

I really wonder why you've never paid much attention to the conflict in the middle east, to know why human beings are mercilessly massacred up there, but instead felt it more expedient to squeal when we say adultery is a crime worth capital punishment down here, to the extent that you have to chant 'the world is watching" to us. I really wonder. I really wonder why your dispositions in regard to our legal theories seem so complacent unlike those you attach to the middle east issue which are accompanied with " I guess" . Mr Fulcher are we being fair to humanity? How can you put it that "Muslims and Jews fight so much" when it is clear that it is genocide that is going on there where a whole group of people are being exterminated every day, not a fight where the two parties involved have a chance of winning?

You see, Mr Fulcher one cannot boast understanding world politics, economics and legal theories without a good knowledge of Jewish-Muslim conflicts. True to God anything that happens in the world right from the days of the crusades have one to one relationship with Jewish-Muslims conflict. Some historians say "History is nothing more than the story of Jews and Muslim". I will continue to discuss this matter as our discourse continues unless when  I see sentiment is clearly overuling, then I hold my peace. But jews have always been incharge of the Europe and America that gave them Palestine displacing the population living their without providing an alternative place for them to reside. The population that never knew any other home apart from Palestine.

And Mr. Fulcher you dare ask : "But what do you do about someone who seems to want to persecute the Palestinians the way the Germans persecuted the Jews in the mid-1930s? "

It is very simple. You only gather around and do to them what you did to the Germans when they persecuted them. In your own words again:

" However, the revelation of what Hitler and the Germans had done to them in the concentration camps during the war was an immense shock which made it difficult to ignore their cries for a homeland where they could be masters of their own fate. For centuries the Jews had been persecuted by their host European countries, and for most of us this was a new fact that made us ashamed, I guess (I was born after the war, so I can only guess how people felt from reading history books). So we said: Why not give them their own country in an area they are interested in, like Palestine?"

you can see why we then say since we do not have helpers let us all die together, let them see that they cannot continue to live on our misery as nature ruled,  in the words of our great poet Alhassan Babajo who says:

If you kill ppl you are killing yourself
The more you harm others the more you harm yourself
It is a reflecting mirror and the reflection is yourself
The boomerang is boomeranging and the target is yourself

This also is confirmed by Danny Ben-tal, a young jewish soldier who spent time in Gaza Strip, in his submission he says:

"whenever a youth hurls a rock at me, I cannot but feel guilty, in the knowledge that were I in his situation I would also be throwing rocks." (the full text is coming in the next  post, I have commited it to memory when I was 14 yrs old)

And Mr Fulcher, though you appear to be fair but I can see you are trying to justify there positions by saying:

"The Jews have worked hard since they started to come here at the beginning of the 20th century. They value education, and becoming a doctor or lawyer is one of the most cherished goals of a young Jew. Since this is a democracy, their wealth and organization has paid off. They can be counted on to vote and to donate to candidates who they like, so they have great influence. If Muslims were to put the same efforts into developing their careers and fortunes, which is available to them in this country, they too could wield influence, but they have not done this yet."

Does this means if we become strong today we can do whatever we like only for others to say it is because we work hard?

You see this is one of the sole reasons why we don’t like those Western philosophies that prescribed for man the reason: SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST. We see the theory of evolution that nurtured that philosophy and sold it as scientic truth as an intellectual treason , the worst crime  ever commited to our intellect.

Afterall why is it that we Muslims did not do the same to the Jews and Christians   when we were on the lead? True to God the present empire of greater Israel is the worst thing that ever happened to mankind.

Read the following link in order to see how we come about islamic fundamentalism and the activities of the "Muslims terrorist" that never are:
http://www.davidduke.com/writings/howisraelcaused911.pdf


This will also answer the remaining questions lionger asked.

I will conclude this post with the following comments by The London Times, May 8, 1920. That was after the 1st world war, after germany has been tasked with payment of compensations of damages incured to the rest of the world:

" HAVE WE BEEN STRUGGLING THESE TRAGIC YEARS TO... EXTIRPATE THE SECRET ORGANISATION OF GERMAN WORLD DOMINION ONLY TO FIND BENEATH IT, ANOTHER MORE DANGEROUS BECAUSE MORE SECRET?

HAVE WE... ESCAPED A PAX GERMANICA ONLY TO FALL INTO A PAX JUDAECA?"

[Waziri]

Here we are again, the ffl is a confession by one of the jewish soldiers, deployed to Gaza Strip in 1989. His name is Danny Ben-tal, it was culled from a south african magazine named "Sunday Star" on a new year day, that same 1989.  

PALESTINIAN STATE ALREADY EXISTS, LET THERE BE NO MISTAKE ABOUT THAT. IT EXISTS IN JABALIYA AND SHATI, IN THE MOSQUES AND IN THE MIND. JUDGING BY THE PROLIFERATION OF THE PALESTINIAN LIBERATION FLAGS IN SHATI, WE HAVE ALREADY BEGUN TO LOSE THE BATTLE FOR THIS SQUARE MMILE OF ERETZ ISREAL .

AT FIRST THE INTIFADAH OPENED OUR EYES, SHOCKED SOME OF US INTO REALISATION. BUT WHEN SO MANY ISRAELIS REFUSE TO RECOGNISE WHAT IS HAPPENING, WHAT GOOD WILL THAT DO?

A SORT OF STATUS QUO HAS BEEN REACHED. THEY HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE FROM THIS POINT ON: THEY ARE FIGHTING FOR THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THEIR NATIONAL IDENTITY, THEIR PRIDE.

FOR ALL THE FEAR WE INSPIRE IN THE LOCAL POPULACE, WE NO LONGER MAINTAIN ABSOLUTE CONTROL OVER THEIR LIVES. THE SYMPTOMS OF EVENTUAL DEFEAT ARE ALREADY OBVIOUS.

WE CATCH A ROCK-THROWING CHILD, PROBABLY NOT MORE THAN 12 YEARS OLD , IN HIS EYES I DETECT A CERTAIN PRIDE BEHIND THE FEAR OF WHAT IS ABOUT TO HIM.

SOLDIERS START SHOUTING: "HIT HIM, SMASH HIS HEAD IN, BREAK HIS ARMS SO HE WON’T THROW STONES AGAIN, TEACH HIM A LESSON."

THIS FROM SOLDIERS WHO ONLY DAYS BEFORE HAD BEEN LAW ABIDING AND GOD-FEARING CITIZENS OF THE STATE THAT WAS CREATED IN ORDER TO SHELTER JEWS FROM THE SAME SENTIMENTS.

WHENEVER A YOUTH HURLS A ROCK AT ME, I CANNOT BUT FEEL GUILTY, IN THE KNOWLEDGE THAT WERE I IN HIS SITUATION I WOULD ALSO BE THROWING ROCKS. BUT HOW CAN I, A SOLDIER TURN TO HIM AND SAY, 'AS A  JEW WHOSE PEOPLE HAVE KNOWN MUCH SUFFERING AT THE HAND OF OTHERS, I SYMPATHIZE WITH YOU'?

THESE CHILDREN ARE BEAUTIFUL, OUT OF THE LITTER AND STENCH THEY EMERGE, YOUNG JEWELS WITH CLEAR, DUST-COLOURED FACES AND WIDE, BRIGHT, INNOCENT-SEEMING EYES.

THE THREE-YEAR-OLDS WAVE AT US AS OUR PATROL PASSES. THE FIVE-YEAR-OLDS ALREADY UNDERSTAND THAT WE ARE THE ENEMY: GLEEFULLY, THEY SHOW US THE "V FOR VICTORY" SIGN, NOT REALLY APPERICIATING WHAT IT MEANS.

WE ALL KNOW WHAT TO DO, BEHAVING FIRMLY BUT YET POLITELY, AS THE SITUATION DEMANDS. AND SOMETIMES THE SITUATIONS DEMANDS US TO BE SONS-OF-BITCHES.

21 YEARS HAVE GONE BY SINCE THE TERRITORIES FELL UNDER ISRAELI CONTROL. A WHOLE GENERATION HAS GROWN UP THERE, YET THEY ARE NO CLOSER TO ACCEPTING US AS ANYTHING BUT A FOREIGN OCCUPAYING POWER.

AND THE JEWISH SETTLERS CONTINUE TO LIVE THE LIE, LOCKED IN THEIR GOVERNMENT SUBSDISED HOUSES, OUT OF EARSHOT OF THEIR RIOTING NEIGHBOURS.

THEY APPERECIATE THAT THERE SAFETY DEPENDS ON THE ARMY. EVERY EVENING THEY TRAVEL THE STRIP IN MINIBUSES, DISTRIBUTING HOT SOUP AND FOOD TO THE WEARY PATROLLING TROOPS. MOST SOLDIERS ACCEPT GRATEFULLY; OTHERS KID THEMSELVES THAT BY LOGICAL ARGUMENT THEY MAY PERSUADE THE SETTLERS THAT THEIR DAY OF JUDGEMENT WILL COME, AND THEY WILL RETURN TO ISRAEL, THEIR BANK ACCOUNTS SWELLED BEYOND RECOGNITION BY GOVERNMENT COMPENSATION.

THE FEW PEACE-SEEKING IDEALISTS AMONG US REFUSE THEIR 'CHARITY', NOT WILLING TO CONDONE THE OCCUPATION BY EVEN THE TINIEST OF SYMBOLIC ACTS, YET THERE ARE ISRAELI POLITICIANS WHO, FOR THEIR OWN CYNICAL ENDS, PERPETUATE THE MYTH THAT THE INTIFADAH IS TRIFLING.

THOSE WHO CLAIM THAT GRASSROOT POPULAR REVOLUTION CAN BE QUELLED, DELIBERATELY MISLEAD THE NATION. THE FACT IS THAT THERE IS NO MILITARY SOLUTION TO THIS POLITICAL PROBLEM.

ALMOST EVERY RESERVIST WHO HAS SPENT TIME IN THE TERRITORIES THIS YEAR HAS SEEN THAT.

AND IF WE STAY WE ARE GOING TO BE DRAGGED DEEPER INTO A QUAGMIRE AS WORLD OPINION IS SHIFTS FURTHER AGAINST US.

EVENTUALLY, A SOLUTION OF SORT WILL BE FORCED UPON US: WE WILL RETREAT WITH OUR TAIL BETWEEN OUR LEGS.

THE NEXT STAGE UTTER FRUSTRATION MAY WELL INVOLVE THE PALESTINIANS EXCHANGING THEIR ROCKS WITH LIVE AMUNITION, WE WILL HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO RETALIATE APPROPRIATELY. THAT DAY CAN ONLY BE DRAWING CLOSER, I FEAR THAT DAY.

 I have commited this confession to memory since when I was 14 yrs of age.






 

[Jack_Fulcher]

Well, Mr. Waziri, at least you are honest.  You are appartently a disciple of David Duke, as this is the second time you have quoted or referred to his writings.  (You did this at least one time earlier, on June 10, in the "I just dunno what you may say" thread.)  As you well know, Mr. Duke is a former Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan.  I am sure that you can find many anti-Israel and anti-Jew writings at his website, to which you provide us a link.  I am sure that he appreciates having you as a fan.  However, remember that if he takes over the world, he will shoot you right after he has shot all of the Jews.  The Klan is best known for their hatred of black people, as you know.  

This amazes me, Mr. Waziri.  Even al-Hamza hates the Klan, and he is in the habit of accusing those who dare to disagree with him of being members of the Klan.  Lionger, Dave Hill, and I will attest to this.

The writings of David Duke and the other Klan members are a great resource for the big Taliban and bin-Laden fans out there.  I suggest that you apply for membership, so that the Klan can say that it does not discriminate against black people, even though it hates them.

Is this why you hesitate to condemn Hitler, saying that he was no worse than the Israelis?  I agree that the Sharon government is out of control, and that the settlements are illegal, and that they are killing Palestinians every day.  But until the Israelis start gassing and murdering millions of Palestinians, they will be way behind Hitler in the competition for "Biggest Genocidal Killer of All Time."  Pol Pot, the Turks,  Joe Stalin, the US Army in our old West, and those nice folks in Rwanda are also in the running.  In numbers of deaths alone, however, Hitler has a big head start.

You ask why I have not paid a lot of attention to the fighting between Muslim and Jew in the past, but then seem to imply that this conflict is the ONLY think I should have studied.  You say, "one cannot boast understanding world politics, economics and legal theories without a good knowledge of Jewish-Muslim conflicts. True to God anything that happens in the world right from the days of the crusades have one to one relationship with Jewish-Muslims conflict. Some historians say 'History is nothing more than the story of Jews and Muslim'."  Well, the world just seems to revolve around you, does it not Mr. Waziri?  Who is being arrogant now?  Maybe what has happened in China, Russia, Europe and America in the past 500 years has been an unimportant footnote.  I will have to tell them to burn their history books and just get the one you seem to have read.  

You and your Klan buddies also seem to be under the illusion that you can destroy Israel.  Get over it.  The US will never allow that, and even if it did, the Germans would never allow it.  They are completely consumed with guilt over what they did to the Jews, and they are committed to the continued existence of Israel.  Just get over it and get on with your life.

You ask what I mean by working hard to get the same results as Jews have gotten in the US.  I mean that there are many Muslims in the US.  I work with several of them.  They are smart and, if they adopt a strong work ethic and build their careers and fortunes, they can influence US politics as well.  In a democracy, as in many other forms of government, an organized, smart and committed group can be very effective and get things done.  Do not whine about how unfair the world is to you, or has been to your people.  That will not be effective, and it will waste your energies.  Study, work hard, save money, and plan well.  I hope I do not sound like your parents.

This has nothing to do with survival of the fittest.  It has to do with self-improvement and progress.  Evolution is a theory in biology about how species change over many generations.  I am talking about you and your children.  Do not get confused.

And then you quote the London Times from the 1920s??  And you turn around and tell lionger to stop looking to the past?  The London Times was notoriously pro-Nazi until well into the 1930s.  They probably would have hired David Duke as a writer.

Nice quote from the Israeli soldier, by the way.  It is hopeful that some in Israel are sensitive to what is happening.  I wonder what would happen to a Palestinian fighter who expressed similar sympathies to the plight of Israelis killed by a terrorist explosion in a market.  Would we see his views published?

And how did al-Hamza stumble into this thread?  Is he lost again?  Someone please show him the door.

Have a nice weekend, everyone.  Jack

[Anonymous]

Hi
I thought I would point out that George Bush and Tony Blair look like they will soon be paying the price for their disgraceful attack on Iraq. The people of Britain are turning against Blair now and it looks likely that he will lose his position as Prime Minister. I understand many people in America are now seeing through George Bush's lies as well and the political tide is running away from him. I cannot imagine another US president would allow Sharon to behave the way he does to the Palestinians - but perhaps Jack can tell us more.

Another significant thing has happened as a result of the Iraq conflict. Many more Americans have become aware of the rest of the world and what the rest of the world thinks of America - and it's not good. Personally I can't take seriously a country that allows its citizens to freely go into a shop and buy handguns, rifles and walk about armed. No civilised country would allow such so, although America is mighty, it has a long way to go before it is a society that can tell other people what to do - which it tries to keep doing  even to the extent of organising the assasination of heads of state. Let us remember that the CIA hired a young Saddam Hussein to assasinate the leader of Iraq that America didn't like - and look where that brought us to.
Must go.

[Jack_Fulcher]

Hey Dave.  Good points about Blair and Bush.  Bush's approval rating for his foreign policy is down to 44 percent, while his overall rating is just above 50 percent.  This is down from the high 60s last year.  And 53 percent say that the Iraq war was not worth it, according to the same CBS/New York Times poll.  Blair is in trouble too, and your form of government makes it possible to remove him when he loses confidence.  In the US, we have a presidential election every four years, and the next one is in November, 2004.  I have no idea how Bush will do in that election, because a year is an eternity in American politics.  I think that one reason Bush is doing as badly as he is is due to the downturn in the economy.  If the economy improves next year, he will probably be re-elected.  However, his father lost the 1992 election to Clinton because the economy was in a downturn then.  As Clinton's campaign manager said, "it's the economy, stupid!"

As for my own view on the war, Iraq was not high on my list of countries to invade to fight terrorists.  If we want to go after them, why not try Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Iran, or even Pakistan first?  Iraq didn't have much to do with bin-Laden.  I think that Bush was just trying to finish what his father started, and he was mad that Saddam tried to have his father killed.  I think the world is much better off without the Baath Party, Sadam, and his sons, mind you; remember that Sadam killed more Muslims than anyone in history.  I just don't think they thought this thing through.

If Bush gets beat next year, will the Democrat be more balanced toward Israel?  Not much chance of that.  Remember that Sharon was building those stupid settlements all through the Clinton administration in the 1990s.  Remember that the Democratic Party has more Jewish participation than the Republican Party, and, although it is probably hard to believe, Bush has been harder on Sharon than Clinton ever was.  Bush is trying to do something about the problem in his own way, I think, by making the whole area a little safer for the Israelis, or at least that is his plan.  If Israel feels like they won't be blown up by terrorists, maybe they will be more willing to give the occupied territories back to the Palestinians.

It is an interesting point you make, Dave, about guns.  Remember that when the British still ran things here, before 1776, the army would confiscate guns from the people here, and that was resented.  I do not own a gun myself, never even shot a gun, but having gone throught the anti-war movement of the 1960s and 1970s, I am not sure it is such a good idea that only the police and the army have guns.  I do not trust authority, and I think that power should be in the hands of the people, not the police.  The downside, of course, is that guns are dangerous.  If we had a gun in the house, my wife would probably have shot me by now.  

If I had my way, handguns would be banned, but everyone could have a rifle.  Something like that.  No Uzis.  But I think that it is a tribute to our civilization that we have so many guns but no rebellions.  Just knuckleheads in Texas getting drunk and shooting up the family car.

And what civilized country spells it "civilised?"  Get real.  Jack  

[al_hamza]

          BISMILLAHIRAHMANURAHEEM
(IN THE NAME OF THE MOST MERCIFUL AND THE MOST BENEFICIENT)        

                "YA AYYO HALLA ZEENA AMANULA TATTA KHAY ZUL YAHUDO WANNASARA AULIYA'ABA'DOHUM AULIYA'A BA'DI WA MUN YA'A WALLAHUM MIN KUM FA IYYAHO MIN HUM INNALAHA LA YAHDIL QAUMAZZALIMEEN".

                "OH YOU WHO BELIEVE ! TAKE NOT THE JEWS AND THE CHRISTIANS AS AULIYA(protectors or guardians), THEY ARE BUT AULIYA TO ONE ANOTHER. AND IF ANY AMONGST YOU TAKES THEM AS AULIYA THEN SURELY HE IS ONE OF THEM. VERILY ALLAH GUIDES NOT THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE ZALIMUN (opressors) AL-MAIDAH 51

                    jack, doesnt it surprise you? The Qur'an has remained unchanged since it was brought down over 1400yrs ago. The jews then were most ill-treated amongst the christian europe. They werent even allowed to live within city limits, they were treated as inferior species, till one of your popes decided to forgive them for killing (axtaghfurullah) Jesus (which we dont believe) now, Pope was given the power to forgive the killer of "God" (we dont believe Jesus/Isah alaihissalam to be God). Islam doesnt believe in inheritence sins, which the christians do.

                        back to the point, Jews and Christians were arch-enemies back then.  Inspite of that Allah (S.W.T) says in the Book that the christians and the jews are friends only to one another, and today what do we see?

the US is all christian and plays to the tunes of jews (i piety americans).

and i thought u said the klan isnt killin people now? Oh man, jack am so confused, have you been drinking too much lately? cos you told us this time around that they are ready to kill.

then again jack.
you want the US to attack other muslim countries? i dont know of Pakistan or Sudan or Syria, but just send in one soldier to conquer Saudi and you'll see the massacre you'll face.
                     Its part of our History. Mulims have always been the most fearless fighters (alhamdulillah) for e.g Omar Mukhtar was from libya and he gave hell to the italians. His men used to tie thier legs in the battle ground. thier slogan was "FIGHT TILL DEATH, NO RETREAT"! with rifles the brave men fought an enemy that carried machine guns, drove tanks and flew planes.
                    Then we had a general (i dont remember his name) that conqured cyprus, cyprus is an island and the only way to reach it is by boats. When they reached cyprus, the General asked for the boats to be burnt. When a soldier asked why, The Generals reply was "WE EITHER TAKE THE PLACE OR WE FACE MATYRDOM".
                     As a british historian put it "DICIPLINE AND THE LOVE FOR HEAVEN IS WHAT MAKES THE MUSLIMS LEATHAL".
               I am sure you know Changhis Khan, the mongolian that conqured 3/4 of the civilised world mass. When he went to Afghanistan, he climeb the highest mountain that his eye could see, on the summit he went on his knees and said "OH GOD OF THE AFGHANS, ALLOW ME TO CONQURE THIS LAND, I PROMISE I WILL LEAVE IMMEDIATELY I DEFEAT THEM". He knew from the history of Afghanistan, what they did to thier oppressors, and America is nothing compared to the army of chenghis khan.
                  After the fall of india to the british (thanks to the colaberation of the hindus) Britain sent in an army of 15,000 well trained men, (that had served by fighting the Mongolian rulers of india) Only one came back, and that too only because the Afghans sent him as a messenger, the message was "you try to fight us, and take over our lands, we'll finish you mercilessly" there after the british never tried again, though they boasted of the best army of that time.
                 You have the red-army in recent history and i need not tell you of what they had to face there. As one of thier generals said b4 the invasion of afghanistan by the US "it isnt safe to go in there, we have experienced them, and believe me we couldnt count the bodies of our men we left there"

             Agreed, britain has very sucessfully devided us, they have drawn boundries for us, so that we have seperate identities as different nationals. But the days are not far when we'll unite again, Shia Sunni, all together for the kill. and the people to unite us would ironically be the same people that dis-integrated us. Your hatred and lust for wealth would be your ultimate downfall.
           
and hey jack do you know something? You said israel will never end? you think so? think again!
                there's a Hadith (saying of the prophet) that "THE JEWS WILL COME AGAin TO SETLLE IN PALESTINE, THEY WILL BE SUCCESSFUL FOR MANY YEARS, BUT THEY WILL ULTIMATELY BE DRIVEN AWAY" come to think of it, more than 1400yrs ago someone said they will come, and they did, they have stayed so many years and sucessfully killed so many, destroyed lives of so many people and whole generations. every muslim is aware of what israel does and how the US helps. with the kind of madness you portrayed in your last post, you'd surely be uniting us quite early.

               b4 i stop writing jack, i just want you to know, unlike you people, we muslims and to some extent jews, dont change our books and history to suite our tastes, we muslims and the jews are yet to declare alchohol as something not forbidden by God. :),
                 SO MY DEAR FOLKS OF KANO-ONLINE, HAVE I PROVEN THAT JACK IS AGAINST ISLAM? NOT AGAINST THE STONNING OF AMINA LAWAL? I GUESS I HAVE.

DAVE.... EXCELENT POST

[al_hamza]

its better to kill your enemy once and for all, than to degrade him and insult him and his family for decades.
Israel has done much worse than what hitler did.

[Bashir]

if d jews have been persecuted thru out history from d egyptians to d germans what reason wd there be? i mean y always d jews?

[Anonymous]

Hi Jack

"Civlised" is an word in the English language and the English spell it "civilised" along with most of the English-speaking  world except America which keeps putting zeds (or zees,as you call them) into English words in place of the original esses. Language is about communication, however, and not spelling so I won't labour the point (or labor the point, as Americans might put it).

In UK we have a law against the carrying of offensive weapons - as has most of Europe and much of the civilised world. This includes not only guns but knives and any other implement that might be judged to in someone's possession for offensive us. Such a law would probably save the lives of about 2000 Americans each year but perhaps that's not important.  But I repeat I cannot take America seriously until it does something about this. In the meantime there are more people shot dead in any one large American city in any year than there are in the whole of the Uk.
Robert Burns - Scotlands national poet - said " I wish some pow'r the giftie'd gie us tae see oorsels as ithers see us." To translate that out of Scots dialect into English it means it would be very useful and instructive to most of us if we were aware of what other people thought of us rather than just deluding ourselves. More on this anent America and its profile in the world abroad tomorrow as I'm falling asleep at this screen.

Dave

[Jack_Fulcher]

HEY DAVE!  WAKE UP!!  It's only 5:30 PM here in California.  Time to party.  I don't know why the rest of the English speaking world uses S when we use Z.  I remember it was a topic in one of my literature classes in college (well into the last century), but I forget what was said.  Something about how the Germans here influenced spelling.  The American language is a conglomeration of English, German, some French, and none of it spelled especially well.  Also, when Samuel Johnson wrote his dictionary it was a lot different than the one written by Noah Webster, the one used here more.  This business of spelling things correctly wasn't very important until about the beginning of the 20th century.  Now my spell check on my MS Word program automatically changes "rationalise" to "rationalize."  Pretty soon none of this will matter.

As for guns, I live near Oakland so am aware that handguns kill.  All of life is a tradeoff, however, so it is not enough to say that you have fewer gun deaths.  What do you give up for that added safety?  If the Scots were armed to the teeth, they'd be able to break away from England tomorrow.  As it is, all the English have to do is send a few soldiers into every town, and your rebellion would be over.  I'd like the world to be one where we could resolve these changes through discussion and polite meetings, but nothing gets something done quickly like violence.  Look at how the world has changed since the 9/11 incident.  I know that what I am saying is cynical, and I really don't know how much of it I really believe, but casual empiricism should tell you that people without the guns get pushed around by people with the guns.  We needed to use guns to get the English to leave America, and so did the Canadians.  No amount of civilised (I spelled it like that just for you, Dave) talk and persuasion would have worked.  That is why they wanted us to turn in our guns.  They understood power.

On the other hand, stay out of certain parts of Oakland after dark.  This is why I say that we should limit handgun ownership, because they're too easy to take out of the drawer and shoot someone.  Go back to sleep.  Jack