Quote
Intolerance is the great evil in the world. Religious intolerance is the greatest of these and has caused more death and destruction in this world than any other thing. Religious intolerance is probably a greater danger to Nigeria than tribalism.
Just while scanning thru' the posts as made in the chit-chat angle of this forum, I came across the above assertion by one of our most respected elders and mentors in this forum. While I maintain the maximum respect I have for his intellectual ability, I cannot hide the fact that I was set a bit offline by his above comments. Cetainly they sound like the propagandist's. They are not only general but sweeping. They are devoid of sufficient data and statistics but sound typical of statements made to spite religions nowadays. It is unfortunate that todays media is full of such sweeping statements that the entire populace take them to be true without second thought.
I hereby appeal to the good sense of judgement of our noble mentor to provide us with the proof of the above statement in whatever way. Atleast we can find cause to discuss the issue with maximum brevity.
Sir, I remain most loyal
Assalamu alaikum,
Exactly a week ago i happen to watch a Christian program/sermon on the television. I was shocked with the way the sermoner sounded so excessively incitive against Islam and Arabs, i then realised why Bush had to deceive the Americans and tell lies to the rest of the World to justify his crime (war) against Islam: Afganistan, Iraq, etc, etc.
The in-thing in the Bush's war game plan, really is to denigrate and hit Islam by falsely claiming that Iraq had WMD. Now that has been found to be a fluke by the discerning World community, some how, and bravely too, someone(s) have to check Bush's excesses.
Secondly the U.S pushes for democratic rule every where so that she may extend her tentacles and yoke of imperialism all over the globe.
But come to think of it this way, why can't the U.S offer the same type of democracy to China and Russia. Why is it that the U.S only pick on countries it despises for experimenting its democracy? I look at that democracy as a new tool of colonization, the one that seems only good in the eyes of the U.S. Islam ofcourse must be understood, and not to be fought.
all out of context...please respond to the topic!
I second the above opinion ::)
QuoteIslam ofcourse must be understood, and not to be fought.
Mr. Guest and Lionger should not turn a blind eye to the truth. The above three contributions are coherent and consistent, all aimed at explicating the fact that the adverseries of Islam commits lots more attrocities against the believers and make the loudest noises making complains and claims.
Islam is a religion of peace. The Muslims today are being made endengered species and have to, seeking for survival, protect themselves.
Despite these monumental persecutions and condemnations Allah (SWT) will make His true religion dominate all others with time.
salam
i understood the quote to mean religious intolerance is a bad thing not religion itself. If this is what the writer meant to convey then he is not far from the truth.
What i do know is that 'religion', islam to be specific, in of itself is not problematic.
For me, the one thing i can really say iam proud and passionate about is islam, my religion.
For non-muslims, they have since isolated their religion so much so that they consider its implementation non sacrosant.
I hope what i said made sense.
bissalam
Waziri,
I think you read a little too much into Dave's comments. He said religious intolerance was the greatest of evils, not religion itself. Perhaps u are uncomfortable w/ his choice of religious intolerance as the worst form of intolerance, ahead of tribalism. Nevertheless I still think u may have extracted what wasn't there..
EMTL,
QuoteMr. Guest and Lionger should not turn a blind eye to the truth. The above three contributions are coherent and consistent, all aimed at explicating the fact that the adverseries of Islam commits lots more attrocities against the believers and make the loudest noises making complains and claims.
Islam is a religion of peace. The Muslims today are being made endengered species and have to, seeking for survival, protect themselves.
Despite these monumental persecutions and condemnations Allah (SWT) will make His true religion dominate all others with time.
Mr. Dave is talking about getting rid of religious intolerance in the world. What I get from your comments is an attempt to exonerate Islam's adherents from this offense, and shift most of the blame to other faiths like Christianity. Well that is certainly an amusing but thoroughly ineffective attitude that defeats the purpose IMO. They say the first step to solving a problem is admitting it.
So let's talk about the truth. I have a question for you sir: What is the state of religious tolerance in what most of us would consider the 'muslim world'?
QuoteSo let's talk about the truth. I have a question for you sir: What is the state of religious tolerance in what most of us would consider the 'muslim world'?
SO LET US TALK ABOUT THE TRUTH!
I am in no position to tell you whether Islam preaches tolerance or terrorism. But a little walk back to history and the fact on ground may ring the bell.
Let us look at the map of the so called Muslim countries.
A map of the Middle East provides estimates of religious affiliation for sixteen officially recognized countries and territories in that region. Fifteen have a majority Muslim population while Lebanon has Majority Christians. All (including Saudi Arabia) have significant Christian minorities. Those Christian communities are perfectly free to practice their religion. (except in Saudia Arabia, they still claim 100% muslim majority)
In many countries Christians are members of the political and economic elite. For example the church in Damascus were St Paul was said to have been saved by being let down out of a window in a basket is still very much there - and still an active church. And prior to 1948, most had substantial Jewish communities.
If Islam is intolerant, how can this be? How could such communities continue to exist after Muslim rule for over 1,000 years? (Exception: Turkey has been completely under Muslim rule for about 500 years.) The answer is simple: mainstream Islam and Muslim governments do not persecute Christians or Jews. Those who preach such are a tiny minority. I know there are extremist as in all religions.
SO LET US TALK ABOUT THE TRUTH! STILL ON THE TRUTH
I know this may not suggest anything to somebody who is determine to derive the formular:
Christianity = Tolerance, Islam = Terror
What is the record of Christianity?
Looking at the map of Western Europe (Eastern Europe was under muslim rule for about half a century...yet they have christian majority!...despite the 'terror' of Islam!). The survey will show a uni religious society with zero tolerance to even a sect in the same religion. Southern France, Spain, Portugal, Sicily in Italy (...was under Islam for 400 years) are all catholics. Likewise France and Italy. Where are they minority muslims and jews. and even protestants. Northern Europe, UK and Germany are protestants with the exception of some part of Northern Ireland (pls get the History of Britain to see how the manage to be). Remember the massacre of st Bartholomew in france, the like of which is not in any religion.
In England for a period the punishment for being a Catholic was death. One Swiss Canton passed a law that any adult male wrong believer (Baptists in this case - the canton was Calvinist) who refused to reform would be arrested and sold as a galley slave to Venice. Some peoples are called church minders. Their job was to identify people not appearing at church services. If friendly persuasion was not enough, there were other means of ensuring compliance.
This christians against christian not to mention the christian jihad (CRUSADE) which continued up to these days.
Even President George W Bush said on 12 September 2001 that there would be a Crusade against those who were behind the attacks on 11 September. He was immediately told to not use that word, and has not since. Yet some actions of his government seem to follow the theme anyhow.
This is continuation of the above two post.
HONESTLY AND STRICTLY SPEAKING...
I know nowadays Muslims are more intolerant than the rest...may be the christians regretted their deeds in the past at the same time the muslims are tired of persecution from the west after the lost their once strong kingdom abd defender.
...The argument is the main stream Islam does not support intolerance. while I cant vouch for christianity and judaism.
The middle eastern country with the lowest percentage and nearly lowest number of Christians is Israel. The Zionist state has managed to eliminate most of the native Christians from the birthplace of Christianity. Paying Christian tourists and the foreign Christian groups who run the holy sites are of course welcomed as long as they do not make waves. (Perhaps this is simply the wheel coming full circle. The first claimed case of ethnic cleansing is in the book of Exodus - by the Jews as they entered the "promised land.")
Today, There are many Christians and Jews who still have religious intolerance. We need to join forces to stop the small minorities in each religion that say that only they know the "truth," and who would use that "truth" to surpress or eliminate any who do not agree. The majority need to work together to ensure equal rights for all, regardless of religion or sex.
QuoteWaziri,
I think you read a little too much into Dave's comments. He said religious intolerance was the greatest of evils, not religion itself. Perhaps u are uncomfortable w/ his choice of religious intolerance as the worst form of intolerance, ahead of tribalism. Nevertheless I still think u may have extracted what wasn't there..
Don't think Waziri read too much outta that. He only wants more explanation from Dave. And onething I notice is Dave made a claim that intolerence is somewhat the greatest evil or what.... which needs more data and statistics to support. But nobody seems to be disscussing it in that light.
Hi
Before I address the main topic may I assure forumites that Valentine's day is NOT a christian practice and has nothing to do with religion at all. It's harmless nonsense named after a St Valentine who was the patron of lovers like about 1600 years ago or something like that but it has nothing to do with religion at all nowadays. (Valentine's bones are held in a church in my home city of Glasgow, Scotland.)
On the main topic I stand firmly by my previous remarks. I am a catholic Christian by birth, though sadly not a very enthusiastic one.
I suspect that human error and human weakness damages most organised religions and God's word is not fully understood by any of us.
I note that the essential beliefs of all the world's major religions are the same and recognise that this is the result of Divine intervention by God (Allah)who has sent among us great prophets to carry His word and tell us His will.
His will is that we should not kill each other, should love and forgive our enemies,should not steal, should show charity to the poor and the sick and kindness to those who are sad, unfortunate and in difficulty.
That we should not judge others harshly is another important aspect of His divine revelation to us and the promise is that if we follow this we shall not be judged harshly ourselves by God on judgement day.
I try to follow my religion which means I do not interfere in other persons religions - as long as their religion does not try to interfere with my freedom to follow my own.
It is not always like this and there is along history of zealots and misguided followers of all the world's major religions persecuting people of other religions.
Murder and persecution in the name of God is the greatest insult to God. It is the complete contradiction of all God tells us.
That is why I believe religious intolerance is a great evil.
And I believe Nigeria will not be at peace with itself until the Christians respect the rights of the Moslems and the Moslems respect the rights of the Christians across the whole of the Federation, and they both respect the rights of others to be neither Christian or Moslem - as religion is a completely personal matter and we, all of us, answer only to God on these matters.
QuoteHi
That is why I believe religious intolerance is a great evil.
And I believe Nigeria will not be at peace with itself until the Christians respect the rights of the Moslems and the Moslems respect the rights of the Christians across the whole of the Federation, and they both respect the rights of others to be neither Christian or Moslem - as religion is a completely personal matter and we, all of us, answer only to God on these matters.
Thanks Eskimo.
Sir,
Thank you for your kind response. But as you could have noted. My problem is not with Valentine's Day but rather your statement above where you said:
QuoteReligious intolerance is the greatest of these and has caused more death and destruction in this world than any other thing.
One wonders when and where all these destructions happened? And whether religious intolerence is truly our hounting evil.
For example, in the preceding century, all the signatories of mass destruction, poverty hate and evil machinations were people that propagate the startling phrase that religion is the problem of mankind and intolerance in religion is the greatest evil. These ppl were Hitler, Trostky, Lenin, Mao, Polpot, Stalin, Franco, Mussolini and those behind the bombing of Hiroshima and the invasion of Vietnem. They killed millions of ppl and destroyed many homes, set brothers against brothers rendered many homeless and many others dying of hunger all for the pursuit of ideologies that maintain the claim that religion and intolerence of its kind is the greatest evil that had beffallen mankind.
One wonders if even this religious intolerence exists in itself as they say. Because we here in Nigeria have never known anything like religious wars or intolerence until when we became secular. Before in nothern Nigeria it was religion that was ruling and there were populations that were not Muslims but yet we never knew anything like religious wars and riots.
To sum everything up, every religion believes and accomodates others that do not belong to its fold. This is a clear fact of history. But when the secularist want to map his way into the power corners he persecutes religion, makes unfounded claims, and later we see his system coming up with destructions he attaches to religion. The truth of the matter is if there is religious intolerence then it is a flame fired by irreligion. Secularism has failed mankind.
Sorry pls I was not very much organised, was in haste. Will write more if there is need.
Waziri
I do not doubt much of what you say about the murderous behaviour of many wicked and anti-religious tyrants.
This does not change the fact that there have been truly terrible persecutions done in this world in the name of religion and some very evil deeds.
It does none of us any good to turn a blind eye to these or to only blame the adherents of other religions not our own.
Yes sir, that is true, but when emphasis is laid much on the crimes done by religion almost ignoring that of irreligion as it is happening today we feel greatly uncomfortable since the truth is: that of irreligion is the most heinous both in theory and in practice.
Ordinarily I do not subscribe to the idea of talking "religion" with non proponents of my religion for fear of being misunderstood. Religions are things of the heart and mind of an individual that are supposed to morally and spritually guide human beings in their lives. It is on records that the relgion of Islam is the most embarssed, condemned and sometimes its adherents outrightly labelled barbaric, crude and terrorists. The problem, to me actually is MANKIND and not religion(S)
Developed nations of the world have persistently continued to muzzle smaller nations economically and politically to suit their purpose. Through colonization and subjugation to present day outright invasion, ala Iraq. The U.S in particular is the biggest culprit in this regard. Regardless of any consequences, it bull dozes itself, its policies and perceptions on nations that are otherwise at variance with such doctrines. In the process the U.S wittingly creats monsters who uses any means at their disposal to express un willingness in accepting such "foreign" ideologies.
Currently the U.S has succeeded in adding Iraq to the list of terror nations. In a very unfortunate, deceptive and dye in the wool "intelligence" reports, the U.S leading the U.K and a dew others embarked and executed a fierce war against a defenceless people, who had virtually nothing to defend themselves with. The whole world led by France vehemently cried against the prosecution in vain. Now if one may ask, how the Iraqis ever trust, believe or even regard the U.S as a survior it claims to be? Now these people who have been moved to the wall, and have no where to run to, are daily killing the U.S soldiers and their Iraqi allys through suicide bombings.
Now to the Israelis and Palestinian conflict that has defied all solutions and is growing bigger every day, is a making of some obnoxious rules and arrogating to themselves someone's else's land and country. In the years of the Balfour Declaration, Dr. Nahum Goldman, who was then the Jewish World Congress President said, " The jewish might have had Uganda, Madagascar or any other places for the establishment of a jewish "fatherland" but we want absolutely nothing except Palestine not because the dead sea water by evaporation can produce five trillion dollars worth of metalloids and powdered metal, not because the sub soil of Palestine contains twenty times more petroleum than all the combined reserves of the two Americas, but because Palestine constitute the veritable center of world political power, the strategic centre for world control"
And in 1928 Dr. Chaim Weizmann the first Israeli President (1948-52) said " We will establish ourselves in Paletine whe ther you like it or not! You can hasten our arrival, or you can equally retard it. It is, however better for you to help us so as to avoid our constructive power being turned into a destructive power which will overthrow the world" !!!!!!!!!!!
God willing George Bush will pay the price for the illegal invasion of Iraq to steal its oil. He is now behind in the American opinion polls as the American people waken up to the evil America has been doing. Tony Blair, his little helper, is also behind in the polls in UK for the same reason. I don't think Blair will be PM of UK by the end of this year. Unfortunately the fall of both these fools will not help Iraq as the damage has already been done.
QuoteUnfortunately the fall of both these fools will not help Iraq as the damage has already been done.
Mr David, there is som`n u dont know, it may be my assumptions or maybe coincidence. You are quite right that loosing the elections wouldnt help Iraqi's. Coz as far as the muslim world is concerned, it doesn't end. No matter who wins, U.K and U.S remain what they are. And they all in their own political ways find a way...to cut the story short...it's not over.
and who ever wins...forget it..he is going to implement the same american agenda Mr Bush is now implementing.
May be Bush is just on the wrong side of american history.
and who ever wins...forget it..he is going to implement the same american agenda Mr Bush is now implementing.
May be Bush is just on the wrong side of american history.
Barkan ku da yau
I have read this string while I thought the question or issue raised was very relevant and deserving of proper objective and intellectual discussion, I was dissapointed with the direction it took. My understanding of the issue is why the violence in the name of God? This is a simple straight forward question yet answers went at a tangent! The writer never mentioned any specific religion as the problem yet reponses were to the effect that this or that religion has done that or this how does that help the present situation if I may ask? Why the defensive posture rather than a discussion? People are asking for statistics, is even one death or act of violence due to intolerance towards a religion not too much?
As commented in one of the posts the issue of the early christain crusaders, this issue and others like it has embarassed true christains around the world and appologies have been rendered for the act, because that act has NO biblical basis. they bible never instructs any christain to attack or kill anyone under any circumstance. So to even use that episode in the history of the church to justify current violence is irresponsible!
Some one questioned the relationship between religion and violence citing the need for statistics and goes on to suggest that it is secularism that is the cause of the religious violence. But maybe we should look at what causes secularism, it is almost always out of despair, loss of faith and hope in religions! What will you tell a secular person when you the non secular ones all you do is kill each other? Whereas it is simpler to understand why secular communities may engage in violence, the execution of such acts defies logic. A simple question will come to the mind of a secular person will be how can a person professing the love, compassion, supremacy of God/Allah, peace etc of their religion decide to take matters in their hands? Is it a sign of lack of faith and trust in their God/Allah? Does their God/Allah have a limitation? So how tolerant religions are will have an effect on how secular populations increase or decrease.
Unless we accept that religionous violence is wrong and speak out against it irrespect of our religious belief we will remain in denial, and do not forget it is not only people and property that are destroyed, the image of the country in the comity of nations is also affected!
Yayin reincarnating din old threads ake. Think this 1 is also relevant considering that Mutallab's saga in the news.
This should promote an interesting thread. I'll return to it later today when I have some time.
It's not religion that is the problem of mankind. It is mankind that is the problem of religion.
All the world's major religions express very similar core values - peace, charity,honesty,conscience and forgiveness.
Then zealots get a hold of them and start to distort these values or use distortions of them to oppress people they don't agree with.
The most common nonsense is that "God" or "Allah" is responsible for everything that happens.
What a cop-out of personal responsibilty for what happens in our world.
For centuries the rich and the powerful have subdued the poor and the powerless with the mantra that everything is in God's or Allah's hands and your reward for your miserable suffering existence in this life will be paradise in the next.
I've read this kind of stuff on Kano Online. Its Allah's will. It's in Allah's hands. It's nothing of the sort. The condition of Nigeria has nothing to do with God or Allah. It has to do with theft, corruption and incompetence.
The central tenet of Christianity and Islam is that we will be judged by what we freely do on this earth. Allah or God does not put us here and then decide for us what we do. We have free will. We freely decide what we do. And the thieves that are destroyng Nigeria freely decide what they do.
And then they deceive the poor to put their faith in Allah or God and accept their poor condition.
That way they escape judgement in this world. But they will burn in hell in the next.
I believe the central issue is that of "Destiny". People are wont to cling to the idea that whatever you do in this world, Allah has already ordained what you'll become. That what we are, what we will be was predestined. The issue of destiny is at best a complex one. But on the whole, I agree with you that mankind has abused this notion, using it to perpetrate criminalities, especially in Nigeria.