The Israeli/Lebanese conflict..

[_Waziri_]

Mr. David,

German government can only give me the lot of evidence about, Hitler, Nazi, and the masacre he had presided over. But it can never manufacture the evidence that the Holoucaust was more a disaster to the Jews than it was to others like the Gypsies, Blacks, Communists,  etc. Remember, what I have said over time was not that Holoucaust did not happen or that Hitler did not exist, or that he was not a racist, facist who was a disaster to all. But that the Holoucaust  is being exagerated in favour of the Jews who for long had the plans to usurp the some Arab lands in the Middleast. They used the Holoucaust, with the help of their media houses, to project themselves as the only victims of Hitlers' agression to have deserved special treatment so as to be given Palestine.  Period.

Yes, there is an evidence of bad feeling among the Muslims/Christians on this forumn which is a projection of the general feeling among the adherents of the two faiths across the globe. Christians think that whatever is good for the Muslims is bad for them, so also the other way round. This actually is due to the ignorance on the part of the opposing sides about the essense and the meaning of the third force between them. For example, lionger and Ete think, for their ignorance of what Judaism, Zionism and the significance of Israel are to the Jews, the Jews should be sided with agaisnt the Muslims always. This is very wrong. But now that they have admitted on their lack of knowledge in the area of discourse, I think we are making a head way.

Posters on this forum, will remember how many atimes I make posts that tries seeing the worldview of our christians neighbours in a very favourable light. I always say that the difference between Muslims and Christians is in theology NOT politics. Christians and Muslims are the same in questions of morality, politics and ethics, as much different from the Jews, under talmudic prompting, which says:

In the beginning, God created inorganic subtances, organic substances, plants, animals, humanbeings and above all the Jews.

This is in great contrast to the declaration in Islam and Christianity which says: All mankind are equal before the creator.

This is the basic reason why the Jewish government in Israel do not discriminate between the Christian Lebanese and Muslim Lebanese when it comes to killing. They are all GOY, GOYIM, or Gentiles who are not of any lot in the sight of God of Judaism.

[lionger]

Yes, there is an evidence of bad feeling among the Muslims/Christians on this forumn which is a projection of the general feeling among the adherents of the two faiths across the globe. Christians think that whatever is good for the Muslims is bad for them, so also the other way round. This actually is due to the ignorance on the part of the opposing sides about the essense and the meaning of the third force between them. For example, lionger and Ete think, for their ignorance of what Judaism, Zionism and the significance of Israel are to the Jews, the Jews should be sided with agaisnt the Muslims always. This is very wrong. But now that they have admitted on their lack of knowledge in the area of discourse, I think we are making a head way.

Waziri this is a blatant and ridiculous misrepresentation of my stance on this issue. It was you who injected religion into this discussion from the get-go, and it is no wonder that you have at times seemed completely incapable of separating the Israel-Lebanon conflict from religious sectarianism. You do not have to be a Christian to condemn Hezbollah for starting this conflict, nor do you need to be a muslim to condemn Israel for killing 1000 civillians. There is evidence of this very fact on this forum!

I don't know why you entertain the idea that Christians support the Jews just because they don't like Muslims or feel the need to be opposed to them at all times. So with this notion and remembering that I was Christian, you read all my posts on the Israel/Lebanon conflict in this light. Now isn't this wrong? Isn't this the exact tactic you accused me and Ete of using in your tirade against us?

But then when some among us deliberately prove themselves allergic to reason always, or atleast colour every issue with the cloak of the person who is making an assertion, then definately these people are sowing the seed of destructing any good sense any debate may make on the forum.

No wonder you kept reminding me of the published opinions of the obscure, supposedly christian woman Alice Smith in Time Mag. from over 17 years ago. Were you trying to show me that its possible for Christians to oppose the Jews? Of course there are many Christians who share such views; so what? IMHO, they are wrong! And I trust that there are many muslims like our own alhaji aminu who can apportion some blame on Hezbollah, and IMHO they are right! Now what are you trying to say here, that it should be Christians and Muslims against the Jews? That is plain mob mentality and is very wrong! Let's stop this silly posturing and look at issues objectively. While I have sometimes cringed at some of Ete's comments regarding Muslims/Arabs, that will not stop me from recognising that his stance and aminu's on this issue is factually sound for the most part, unlike that of many other responders who seem more interested in attacking the larger specter of Israel's supposedly illegitimate existence rather than tackling the pertinent issues that led to this disastrous confrontation in South Lebanon.

Btw I have no ill-feelings towards Muslims in general, and have never expressed such on this forum. and if anyone feels I do then he should point out the offending post. Peace,

lionger[/quote]

[_Waziri_]

Ok, Lionger, read what you quoted from me above without your name mentioned in it, and still reply me. Try to see the truth in the statements I made and respond to me without involving yourself. It is then, you will see yourself more as addressing the issue than depending yourself.

Yes, there is an evidence of bad feeling among the Muslims/Christians on this forumn which is a projection of the general feeling among the adherents of the two faiths across the globe. Christians think that whatever is good for the Muslims is bad for them, so also the other way round. This actually is due to the ignorance on the part of the opposing sides about the essense and the meaning of the third force between them. For example, some, for their ignorance of what Judaism, Zionism and the significance of Israel are to the Jews, the Jews should be sided with agaisnt the Muslims always. This is very wrong.

[_Waziri_]

Also for the records lets see who relly started the agression. Lionger claims it was Lebanon others say it was Israel. The following is what my sister wrote in another forum, with clear cut sources and links. Happy reading:

"Few readers will be aware that on June 24, the day
before the "kidnapping", Israeli commandos had entered
the Gaza Strip and captured two Palestinians claimed
by Israel to be members of Hamas. (See our Guest Media
Alert by Jonathan Cook, 'Kidnapped by Israel';
http://www.medialens.org/alerts/06/060630_kidnapped_by_israel.php)

In addition,

On June 8, the Israeli army assassinated the recently
appointed Palestinian head of the security forces of
the Interior Ministry, Jamal Abu Samhadana, and three
others. On June 9, Israeli shells killed seven members
of the same family picnicking on Beit Lahiya beach.
Some 32 others were wounded, including 13 children.

On June 13, an Israeli plane fired a missile into a
busy Gaza City street, killing 11 people, including
two children and two medics. On June 20, the Israeli
army killed three Palestinian children and injured 15
others in Gaza with a missile attack. On June 21, the
Israelis killed a 35-year old pregnant woman, her
brother, and injured 11 others, including 6 children.
Then came the Israeli capture of two Palestinians,
followed by the Palestinian capture of the Israeli
soldier and the killing of the two other soldiers.

After the beach deaths, Hamas, the ruling party in the
Palestinian Authority, broke an 18-month ceasefire and
joined other militant groups in firing Kassam rockets
into Israel. The Financial Times reported on June 23
that the missiles, principally targeted towards the
Israel town of Sderot, have caused damage and some
casualties but no fatalities in the recent barrages. A
June 29 Guardian leader noted that the home-made
Kassam rockets are "not in the same league as Israel's
hi-tech (though not always accurate) weaponry".
(Leader, 'Storm over Gaza,' The Guardian, June 29,
2006)

In an interview for Democracy Now, Norman Finkelstein,
Professor of Political Science at DePaul University in
Chicago, compared the lethality of Israeli and
Palestinian weapons:

"Since Israel withdrew from Gaza in September 2005
'til today, the estimates run between 7,000 and 9,000
heavy artillery shells have been shot and fired into
Gaza. On the Palestinian side, the estimates are
approximately 1,000 Kassam missiles, crude missiles,
have been fired into Israel. So we have a ratio of
between seven and nine to one.

"Let's look at casualties. In the last six months,
approximately 80 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza
due to Israel artillery firing... There have been
exactly eight Israelis killed in the last five years
from the Kassam missiles. Again, we have a huge
disproportion, a huge discrepancy." ('AIPAC v. Norman
Finkelstein: A Debate on Israel's Assault on Gaza,'
June 29, 2006;
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/06/29/1420258)

Finkelstein also compared the situation with regard to
hostages: "let's talk about those 9,000 Palestinians
who are effectively hostages being held by Israel.
1,000 of them are administrative detainees...
Administrative detainees who are being held without
any charges or trial. And the other 8,000 are being
held after military courts have convicted them, almost
always on the basis of confessions which were
extracted by torture. So if we're going to look simply
at the numbers, we have one hostage on the Palestinian
side, and effectively we have about 9,000 on the
Israeli side." Earlier this month, the Israeli human rights
organisation, B'Tselem, published fatality figures for
June 2006 in the Occupied Territories and Israel.
Forty-two Palestinians, six of them minors, were
killed by Israeli armed forces. Twenty-four of the
fatalities were bystanders not involved in the
conflict.
(http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/EKOI-6RC53K?OpenDocument&rc=3&cc=isr
)

B'Tselem's figures do not include the seven members of
the Ghaliya family killed on Beit Lahiya beach.
However, a June 17 report by Donald Macintyre in the
Independent "cast doubt on crucial elements of the
conclusion of the military investigation which
absolved Israel of any responsibility". (Macintyre,
'Hospital casts doubt on Israel's version of attack
that killed seven Palestinians,' The Independent, June
17, 2006)
According to B'Tselem, in May 2006, 36 Palestinians
were killed by Israeli security forces, one Israeli
civilian died from injuries he sustained the previous
month. At time of writing, Israeli soldiers have
killed a total of six Palestinians since the
re-invasion.


Collective Punishment - Frailer Palestinians Are Dying

Having killed many more people in recent weeks,
Israel's response to the soldier's capture has been to
heap yet more suffering on the Palestinian people.
Israel re-invaded Gaza with 5,000 troops on June 27
and then bombed Gaza's only electrical generating
station, so depriving half a million people of
electricity. Human Rights Watch commented:

"The destruction of the power station could quickly
cause a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, as electricity is
essential to power the water system, sewage treatment,
and medical services". ('Gaza: Israeli Offensive Must
Limit Harm to Civilians,' June 29, 2006;
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/06/29/isrlpa13662.htm)

In the same attack, Israel destroyed three bridges,
and the main water pipes for two refugee camps. Will
Hutton noted in the Observer: "Sealing off access to
water and food can only inflict acute discomfort on
the people there; already, frailer Palestinians are
dying." (Hutton, 'Israel's act of war is inexcusable,'
The Observer, July 2, 2006)

The Guardian wrote: "The electricity supply to half of
Gaza has been cut, and all supplies of fuel and food
have been halted." Amazingly, the same article added:
"Israeli aircraft and forces operated without harming
anyone." (Conal Urquhart, 'Israel rounds up Hamas
politicians,' The Guardian, June 29, 2006)

Prior to these attacks, Save the Children's UK
Programme Manager Jan Coffey reported that 78% of the
population in Gaza were living below the poverty line
with 10% of children under five suffering from chronic
malnutrition. In June, the World Food Programme
reported that 51% of Palestinians - 2 million people -
were unable to meet their food needs without aid, and
that in Gaza, "the situation is becoming critical".
(Justin Podur, 'Summer rains,' ZNet;
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=10500)


In a rare departure from Western silence, the Swiss
Foreign Ministry declared this week: "A number of
actions by the Israeli defense forces in their
offensive against the Gaza Strip have violated the
principle of proportionality and are to be seen as
forms of collective punishment, which is forbidden."
(Bradley S. Klapper, 'Switzerland: Israel violating
law in Gaza,' Seattle Post-Intelligencer, July 3,
2006;
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1103AP_Switzerland_Israel.html)


The Swiss statement referred to provisions of the 1949
treaty of the Geneva Conventions, regarded as the
cornerstone of international law on the obligations of
warring and occupying powers. A key section reads:

"It is prohibited to attack, destroy, remove or render
useless objects indispensable to the survival of the
civilian population." (Cited, 'PCHR Warns of a
Humanitarian Crisis in the Gaza Strip,' July 2, 2006;
http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/PressR/English/2006/66-2006.htm) ''

[lionger]

Waziri, please stick to the subject. The subject is the Israel/Lebanon, not Israel in Gaza. Why bring up Gaza? Or are you trying to say that Hezbollah attacked Israel in response to Israel's actions in Gaza (which I agree is disproportionate, as the Swiss put it)? When did did they say that? No diversionary tactics; I'm talking about South Lebanon. It is obvious that Hezbollah started this conflict by crossing the border and abducting two soldiers, killing three. To try and connect this issue with the one in Gaza is simply obfuscation.

[_Waziri_]

Do not read meanings Lionger, the conflict in Southern Lebanon between the Hizbullah and Israel did not or begin with the action of the Hizbullah on that fateful day alone. Hizbullah fight a battle for Arabs not Lebanon and they strike at Israel when Israel does anything they believe to be wrong to other Arabs anywhere not in Lebanon only. That is the essense of that post by my sister. If you choose to see it as diversionary, you are suited for that, even though it wouldn't change the reality of things as they are.

[Ete]

Ok, this is rather confusing now, and I am not sure most people here can make head or tail of this new argument. There was nothing said before about Hezbollah's action and the Gaza incident.  We seem to be making up stories as we go along, and this further diminishes this discourse. I agree 100% with lionger that this is diversionary tactic aimed at clouding the real issue.

Just so we can be clear waziri, are you stating categorically that Hezbollah is the official army of the Arabs?  Are you saying Hezbollah directly or indirectly fights for the entire Arab World? If so, do the entire Arab World endorse them and accept this arrangement?

[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

At last I am in total agreement  with Waziri on one point. Of course Hezbollah is a reaction to Israeli behaviour in Gaza!
The whole world knows that - except perhaps Ete and Lionger (and the American liars) who have plunged the Middle East into total chaos.

I have the benefit of knowing personally Scottish soldiers who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan as part of the British army.
The reports they bring of what is actually going on would make you sick and particularly their reports of the absolutely bestial behavioiur of American troops to Iraqi women and children is horrifying.
The behaviour of America and Israel in the Middle East has more than trebled the size of Hezbollah over the last three years.
Apart from any moral considerations this is profoundly stupid.

[lionger]

Dave and Waziri,
Just answer this question, when did Hezbollah state so clearly that they attacked Israel in response to the latter's aggression in Gaza, in a sense that 'the whole world knows this'? None of the news sources you provided shows this. I thought Hezbollah instigated the attack to exact the release of Arab prisoners in Israel. Isn't this what you yourself said, Waziri? Why are we now talking about Gaza?

Perhaps you and Dave should read this article before putting me and Ete in league with 'American liars':

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5173078.stm

Excerpt:

Hezbollah is seeking the return of Palestinian, Lebanese and other Arab prisoners held in Israeli jails.

Mr Nasrallah said any invasion of Lebanese territory would be met by force.

"The prisoners in our hands will not return to Israel except through indirect negotiations and exchange of prisoners and peace," he said.

"If the Israelis are thinking about carrying out a military operation to recover them they are dreaming."

"We are not seeking escalation, we don't want to lead the region into war. However, if the Israeli enemy wants escalation, we are ready for the confrontation."

He said what Hezbollah had done was the "only feasible path" to freeing detainees in Israeli jails, and "our natural right".

The operation had been planned for several months, he added, long before the capture of Cpl Shalit in Gaza.

[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

Lionger

You make the point well. However I did not say that Hezbollah's recent battle with Israel was because of Israel's behaviour in Gaza.
I said that Hezbollah was formed because of Isreal's behaviour to Palestinians in Gaza (and other Arabs in other places).
That is quite another point.
All Arabs take themselves as one race, no matter what country they reside in. It is called pan-Arabism.

If you harm an Arab in one place all Arabs everywhere are your enemy.

The very sad fact is that the only measurable effect of Israel's failed attack on Lebanon (apart from many dead innocents) has been to manufacture even more enemies for themselves and hugely increase recruitment into Hezbollah (and Hamas). This is political stupidity of the highest order and many even inside Israel know this.