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Assalamu Alaikum
This is an article written by Prof A H Yadudu arguing against abolishing the death penalty. After reading please offer suggestions, comments or critiques for ar against the Death penalty.
Enjoy.
**********************************************Why We Oppose The Abolition Of Death Penalty
by A. H. Yadudu


That President Obasanjo has pledged to a delegation of the European Union his determination to seek for the abolition of capital punishment in Nigeria did not come to many of us as a big surprise. Both in his first term, but more so in the second and final term, he has behaved more determined and acted more eagerly to appease foreign rather than serve national interest or work for the common good of ordinary Nigerians.

While justifying his many globetrotting trips, he has hidden behind the fa?ade of seeking to reconcile our nation with itself bringing it back into the fold of the comity of nations and attracting investment as the reasons why he had been going to places. Having cut down on his trips abroad, he has now found another way to continue with his appeasement crusade. He has promised to work towards abolishing the death penalty, a theme so dear to Europe's heart that it was one of the very many conditionalities which Turkey had to meet in order to qualify for EU membership. One wonders whether we are also on the queue to joining the EU and are earnest in ticking off our compliance with the conditionalities!

Perhaps deliberately, he has thereby embarked on the path to over-heating the polity at home even as he seeks to appease his masters abroad. He knows all too well that the issue will divide Nigerians along religious lines and possibly, evoke North/South dichotomies with all the emotions which accompany debate over such issues. Since he has also promised to accomplish the undertaking through the democratic process, perhaps we are entitled to join issues even in the absence of a draft bill and wish to state, in no uncertain terms, our opposition to the abolition of the capital punishment for the following, among other reasons.

Ours is a federal polity which is anchored on the due recognition of and our constitution is designed to accommodate unity in diversity. Our diversity is not merely in the languages we speak, tribal affinity or the mode of our dressing or whether we find delight in eating "Tuwo", "Amala" or "Ogbono" soup. We are a multi-religious nation in which there is ample recognition and respect for religious freedom. We are constrained to note that any attempt to abolish capital punishment will be viewed as breach of our fundamental freedom of worship and the profession of a religion of our choice and will be treated as a direct affront to our unfettered practice of Islam and the undiluted observance of its fundamental law, the Shariah. At the risk of sounding uncharitable, it has all the hallmark of being an unwitting, albeit calculated attempt, to incite unnecessary religious conflict.

In similar vein, we view it as a backdoor attempt to roll back the implementation of Shariah which Muslims have embarked upon, by the National Assembly which lacks the legislative competence to do so. We are, however, not unmindful of the fact that both Mr. President and his former Attorney General of the Federation Hon Kanu Agabi, currently serving as the Conscience of the Government, have publicly opposed our right to submit to the Shariah as guaranteed by the constitution. Without doubt, Muslims will view this recent attempt as a ploy to formally join the EU and the so-called international community in a modern day crusade against Islam and its institutions by a Christian President who should protect the religious freedom of all citizens.

Perhaps it will not be out of place to caution Nigerians that it will be a serious folly and an act of political miscalculation to seek to unify penal laws in the country or the sentences courts may impose following a conviction. Historically, we have never had a single penal system in Nigeria. From the period when we operated the Criminal Code for the South and the Penal Code for the North to the present when we literally operate as many penal systems as there are States in the federation, there is nothing absurd about that. It accords with our history. Diversity in religious persuasion multiplicity and diversity of penal systems should be viewed, not as retrogressive, but as a hallmark of a true federation which conforms to a universal practice in all federations the world over.

It is what obtains in the USA and Canada and several other federations the world over. We hope it will not surprise Mr. President to know that the Supreme Court of the USA has had to reverse itself to sanction capital punishment after it has earlier outlawed it. With the result that more States in the US federation, including Texas, President Bush's State, do sanction death penalty than have outlawed it. That is a mark of a true federation from which President Obasanjo may wish to borrow a leaf. Indeed Texas has the dubious distinction of being the State in the USA with the most tally of annual executions of prisoners found guilty and sentenced to death by lethal injection, a practice they consider as humane, although they have qualms about stoning an adulterer to death!

If Mr. President, the National Assembly, despite recent disclaimers by the Speaker to the contrary, and the Human Rights do-gooders, insist on expunging death penalty from our statute books, a matter we consider as the pursuit of the path of folly and unnecessary overheating of the polity at a time when even the mandate of Mr. President is still being contested in a court of law, we wish to remind them that the Constitution of the Federal Republic of Nigeria 1999 does unequivocally recognise capital punishment. It provides thus "every person has the right to life, and no one shall be deprived intentionally of his life, save in execution of a sentence of a court in respect of a criminal offence of which he has been found guilty in Nigeria." We expect that they will take all necessary steps to amend the said constitutional provision and submit the matter to a referendum for the public to approve or disapprove of such a move. They would also need to amend the Legislative List in the Second Schedule to the Constitution so as to acquire competence and legitimacy.

It is amazing to observe that the motive for President Obasanjo's pledge to abolish the death penalty, as reported in the press, is not triggered by some moral consideration or empirical reasons or humane compassion or even the urge to serve some vital national interest. It seems to me that, at the bottom of it all, is political expediency: a move to appease both his ego and those of his foreign supporters.

As Adamu Adamu has rather aptly put it, it is not a mark of statesmanship for the President to hinge everything on his personal experience as the reason for making his pledge, as he was reported to have claimed. As widely reported, President Obasanjo offered a glimpse of the motive as to why he desires to make his move now when he claimed to have come close to the hangman's noose after his conviction in the 1995 coup attempt trial. What he did not disclose was what saved his neck: certainly, it was not the absence of capital punishment in our statute books!

What is more intriguing to us is that the President should not have been selective in relating his personal experience. For it is widely believed that the life of at least one General I.D. Bisalla, the then Defence Minister, who was executed along with other coupists following the assassination of Gen. Murtala Mohammed in 1976, would have been saved but for President Obasanjo's casting the deciding vote to confirm a death sentence when the Supreme Military Council, which he presided over then as Military Head of State, was divided on the issue.

We deprecate the utilitarian argument that the life that a murderer has wilfully terminated could not be brought back by, what the abolition proponents characterise as, the "wasteful" and "vengeful" execution of the murderer not extinguish or assuage the agony of the bereaved family. We have similarly not seen any empirical evidence to indicate that the abolition of capital punishment had led to reduction in or even stabilised the incidence of the commission of murder and other heinous crimes. On the contrary, studies have shown that nations which have gone the path President Obasanjo is urging us to follow, such as the Republic of South Africa and the USA, have all witnessed a dramatic increase in the occurrence and escalation or exacerbation of such crimes.

We do not want to take chances with our well-being, safety and the security of our lives. We have had enough political assassinations, unsolved murders, bungled trials, armed robberies resulting in brutal deaths etc to be persuaded to follow the dangerous path of the abolishing of capital punishment.

Professor Yadudu is with the Faculty of Law, Bayero University, Kano

First of all the stand of the FG on the issue is very unfortunate, and uncalled for. It is becoming clear that the government of the day is not keen in allowing citizens to practice their religions unhindered. The issue of death penalty is based on justice and morality. Anyone against the penalty of death being passed on murderers, must be crazy and unsincere to themselves. Imagine a man or woman was caught after hacking your wife, father or son to death, what would you do? Certainly not to praise him/her.
The death penalty is not a Nigerian affair alone, it is a universally acknowledged fact whoever kills must be killed. This is in recognizing the fact that the human life is sacred, and must therefore be defended and not destroyed like insect's.
If we can go a little down memory lane, the cases of Thimoty Mcveigh and the Unabomber, both in the US shows how the legal framework on culpable homicide works there. In the UK the celebrated case of Mardi Gras alias pears, is a good example. Gras was caught after successfully exterminating the lives of so many innocent citizens through the planting of bombs in public buildings. For anyone therefore to talk of cancelling the death penalty in this country now, could be an affrontry of both moslem and christians adherants.

I saw this article written by a teacher in your local college.  I went to the college's web site and discovered that there is no way to contact the professor through e-mail.  Not only that, there is no way to contact anyone at the college!  What sort of college is this?  Does the faculty there think that they can only lecture, but they do not have to receive input from the outside world?

This brings me to the point of my note.  He argues that your president is trying to pander to other countries, especially Europe and the United States, when he pushes for the abolition of the death penalty in your country.  I think that, instead, he is embarrassed for his countrymen and women, some of whom have embraced the draconian Shariah laws.  To suggest that someone should be killed for adultry is absurd and makes you all look like fools.  You can believe whatever you wish, but until you purge your culture of such neanderthal attitudes, you will never be taken seriously.  You will be thought of as "those quaint natives who live out in the bush in Kano and stone women to death for adultry."  No one will believe that you are capable of governing yourselves.  There are many people who came here from Nigeria who live in my city (San Francisco), and they all are shocked that their friends back in their homeland might participate in such behavior.  

Please stop this nonsense and join the rest of the world in the 21st century!  Thank you.

Jack Fulcher
California

Mr Fulcher your points are well taken.

I dont intend to shield our tertiary institution from the desolation that has become of them but know this, these colleges like all government run institutions are dearly in need of cash to enhance their services (Think amtrak). And that might account for meagre amount of information posted on the web.
Note this same professor you are deriding was trained at Harvard Law school! The jewel of American colleges.
I myself reside in the states and know the kind of difficulty your state, california is in -think of the budget cuts, deficit, due to insufficienting funding.
Secondly, you raised the issue of draconian Sharia Law.
Mr Fulcher since when did Laws, duly passed by legislatures working under the guidance of a sovereign nation's statutes became draconian? This is not the Nuremburg laws, or the so called Patriot act, an ordinance that infringes the rights of american citizens.
You also talked of  the absurdity of killing an adulterer. I say this to you, the way we view adultery differs significantly than you do and as such we put to death those who contravene this law.
For example a  Nigerian may find it hard to believe that people like yourself will chastise Nigeria for the death penalty and at the same time be indifferent for the punishment of treason in America. Master Sgt. Brian Patrick Regan was convicted for spying and the jury needs to decide whether or not he be killed. This is in Virginia. Tell me fulcher, which seems more punitive, killing because i TALKED or killing because i SINNED. It is obvious aint it.
Lastly, tell your san fransiscan compatriots to judge which city has more savages:
a) Kano a city which HAS NEVER stoned a woman for adultery or
b) Texas a state that has killed many people, unjustly as George Ryan of Illinios found out,  for commiting a crime that is punished by a prison sentence in Nigeria.

Summary:
In America where you live, there certain pro-lifers who support killing Doctors who perform abortion. One day, this might become Law and possibly some one will be victimized. Would that make you "quaint colanizers of North America"
Also, I personally think the punishment for adultery ought to be killing but NOT by STONNING. The end does not justify the means.

PS: I have more to say but have to stop so to learn more     e mail me @ myadudu.student.umass.edu. I shall be glad to answer any of your questions.

CIAO

Amin the last time i heard of you u were studying engineering;now its more like you r into law.........


anyway your comment on John's post was excellent ......welldone.......

Amin, thank you for your response.  There are several points I'd like to make.  First, if the school can afford a web site, it can afford at least one e-mail address.  Further, if the school needs funding, you all should join the rest of the world and make some money.  It appears that you are doing your best to isolate yourselves, and then complain about how your problems are everyone else's fault.  

I fail to understand your argument regarding draconian laws. You say that the Sharia laws are "duly passed by legislatures working under the guidance of a sovereign nation's statutes."  So what?  The laws of Nazi Germany or Stalin's Soviet Union were created in this way, but were some of the most draconian the world has known.  Saudi Arabia has some of the most notorious laws the world has ever known.  There is no comparison between the Sharia laws, with penalties such as amputation and stoning, and the Patriot Act, which is conservative by US standards, and which I do not personally support, but simply gives the government more power to collect information from citizens and, especially, non-citizens.  No one is killed or amputated.

I also do not understand your reference to Brian Regan.  Where have you been?  Regan was sentenced to life in prison last March, not death as you seem to imply.  We haven't executed traitors for fifty years.  And Regan's crimes endangered the country, not someone's family.  This irrational obsession you have about adultry is one of the things that will keep you stuck in feudalism for many years to come.  And when is the man, the other adulterer, going to be stoned?  You say that you put to death those who break this "law," but it appears that the enforcement is highly discriminatory.  

You do make a good point about Texas - it executes dozens of people every year, and I think this is excessive.  The crimes that are comitted are always murder, not religious-based sins.  But Texas is considered too extreme by most of the rest of the country.  Most states rarely execute, even for murder.

Finally, it's hard for me to understand your sentences in your last paragraph, but it looks like you're suggesting that we might one day make it legal to kill doctors who perform abortions.  Since you are studying in this country, you should understand that this cannot happen since we are governed by a constitution, and this constitution applies to the entire country (unlike what has been suggested elsewhere in this forum).  What we might one day do is make abortion illegal, which is another matter entirely.  If we do, it will be done with due process and full democratic participation, and it will be unlikely that the death penalty will be imposed.  To suggest that we would be considered quaint colonizers for this doesn't make sense.  We are anything but quaint.

I guess I have a final point.  When the fatwa was issued against Salmon Rushdie, I looked eagerly for the Muslim reaction in this country.  Surely those who came here and understand the importance of free speech would speak out against this outrage, but I heard nothing.  I came to the conclusion that people who think it's reasonable to actually kill someone for something he has written do not belong in civilized society.  I was disheartened, but hold out hope that Muslims can learn the importance of practicing free speech and democracy, no matter what their clerics try to tell them.

Jack Fulcher

yes jack i fully support you, there should be no stonning for adultry and no amputation,

exactly you see me and you agree on alot of things,

so whats your mother doing tonight? u know actually am kinda free,

plus hey, you got any cash? i mean something valueable,

you see since i dont have to fear anything cos highest the imprisonment is for 6months, so lemme steal something that would make life easy for me, while you find it hard/impossible to continue with a normal life, but you see probably you'd survive it cos your nation sells arms to many of my african countries so that our people can kill each other,

as such your country can afford giving you allowances when you aint on a job.

and oh, since many of our african countries have finnaly started settling down from the wars, your "so beautiful country" has gone to war and taken control of the worlds 2nd largest deposits of oil and gassoline (since u dont call it petrol)

so bush can still pay for you to stay at home and find new ways of getting aids (through lovely adultry).

you see, lemme give you some of my own history, my father happens to be a fulani and my mother a kashmiri,

am sure bieng an american you know of kashmir, so as you can see iraqi's were "suffering" for hardly 30 years? under His Excelency General Saddam, yes he was a traitor as the americans would tell iraqi's because he was not able to conquer the US and lift the bans on imports of simple medicines and surgical equipments.

oh then we have east timor, the US wasnt concerned when indonesia was a success story. but when indonesian economy came falling down, we had the americans on the fore-front trying to rescue the east timorese,

so mr jack, you know i love america so much, when are the american troops going to free kashmir?
you see 70,000 kashmiri's have been massacred since 1947 by the occupational army of india, plus countless rapes, bodies are found swimming dead in the once "heaven's own river" (the british named kashmir heaven on earth) the main medium for generating income (fruits) has been levelled by the indian army,

june many years ago (i think it was 1943-5) , a man named Abdul-Kadir spoke against the dogra rule (the then king was a hindu) because it refused to do anything to the policeman that tore the Qur'an apart (Axtaghfurullah), so he was detained and was to be tried for treason in the srinagar central jail (srinagar is the capital of kashmir) on the 13th of july when he was to be tried, people from all over kashmir gathered outside the central jail, time for Asr came and a young kashmiri stood up for the call for prayer and he was immidiately shot dead by a dogra soldier, another kashmiri stood and continued from where the first had stopped, the second was also matyred, then another stood and continued and he was also matyred, a total of 22 were killed trying to call for the Adhan (kiran Sallah) or call for prayer.

so i hope you can see that the kashmiri's need the american messiahs more than anyother people, do you know that about 40% of kashmiri's suffer from one or the other kind of mental sickness? thats the highest in the world (i watched that on an indian news channel).

So when are you going to start helping?

so as i understand the US was made after the invasion of white man, who lived there before? as i saw on the national geographic channel :) the red indians actually owned the place, so as we all know the US helps the israelis with arms ammunations and money, ($10 billion in case you dont know) and american people and gov support israel because the jews actually owned the place, so mr jack straw (i love you) when are you going to give up the US and leave it to the indians?

You see if america has the right to exist then israel doesnt and if israel has the right to exist then america doesnt,

you see i have a Palestini friend that is a refugee in jordan, as he told me, when the americans are shouting for peace, israel actually bombards the palestinians with only hardly 2 weeks old bombs "MADE IN THE LOVELY US" (the israeli's dont take the shell casses with them after the massacres, do they?)

you see i can go on and on, but i wont, cos you are a sorry case, you even interfered in our civil war !!! in biafra, i will shed some history on that later,

and oh mr jack lemme tell you one more thing , i have been to the US and lived there for three months, i witnessed for myself the racism, you see bieng half african or full african doesnt matter as far as you aint white.

but hey, i loved the US though cos the people are really hard working and there's almost no corruption (at-least in the lower circles)

oh sorry i asked bout your mom,

yours Al-Hamza

So much has been said, but to be frank I always feel somehow when pple are talking about death penalty. why? coz who do not support it think they are doing disservice to Islam while the supporters think they are the true Muslim!

To me it is just strange that somebody should be killed by stonning. I once said I couldnt find the reference in Quran but I was told that the Law was found in Hadith. I know of such hadith, infact about 3 or 4 talking about stonnig, yet in them I only see that those who stoned to death lack any locus standi for doing so. Those hadith's authentiticy is not sound enough for them to be used in taking a sacred life of human being.

I am never against death penalty..atleast if u kill sombody you should also be killed...and many other crimes "punishable" by death. but where is it in Islam ( I mean authentic, uncorrupted from God - Quran ) is killing for a crime mentioned as the only punishment.

Let me remind myself of major occasions where killing is prescribed in the Sharia law:

1. Causing Mischief and waging war against God (Treason)
2. Murder
3. Adultery

Let analyse the prescribed punishments direct from Holy Quran (Yusuf Ali's translation):

"On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - UNLESS IT BE FOR MURDER or FOR SPREADING MISCHIEF IN THE LAND - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land."
"The punishment of those who WAGE WAR AGAINST ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER, AND STRIVE WITH MIGHT AND MAIN FOR MISCHIEF THROUGH THE LAND is: EXECUTION, or CRUCIFIXION, or the CUTTING OFF OF HANDS AND FEET FROM OPPOSITE SIDES, or EXILE FROM THE LAND: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;" 5:32-33

The above 2 verses have taken care of treason the offence some ulama consider it to include conversion from Islam despite the saying of almighty Allah that there is no compulsion in religion. Even so, the punishment does not only stop on killing other punishment are said by the most merciful God. why dont we apply them: must people be killed for merely changing religions.

As for commiting murder the punishment is surely death as said precisely by God to the children of israel; The first verse only narrates what was given to the Jews. It stops short of asking Muslims to do the same. Another verse in Quran support that the said punishment is wriiten to the Jews although that is the verse muslim jurists mostly use for basing their argument for Death penalty on murderers.

"It was We who revealed the Torah: therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are Unbelievers."
"We ordained THERE IN FOR THEM: "LIFE FOR LIFE, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are wrong-doers." 5:44-45
in another verse of the holy book God now said the punishment for murder in clear terms for the muslims:
"Never should a believer kill a believer; but (If it so happens) by mistake, (Compensation is due): If one (so) kills a believer, it is ordained that he should free a believing slave, and pay compensation to the deceased's family, unless they remit it freely. If the deceased belonged to a people at war with you, and he was a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (Is enough). If he belonged to a people with whom ye have treaty of Mutual alliance, compensation should be paid to his family, and a believing slave be freed. For those who find this beyond their means, (is prescribed) a fast for two months running: by way of repentance to Allah: for Allah hath all knowledge and all wisdom."
"If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him." 4:-92-93
Similar thing is said in 48:25


The 3rd case: ADULTERY is the most controversial coz it is not mentioned anywhere in the quran. on the contrary thepunishment was prescribed cleary in the quran for the offence. But because in some hadith a contradictory punishment was prescribed the muslim jurists in their attempt to explain the contradiction the divide the punishment into two.

The lenient one said by Allah in the quran is for the Unmarried, although the maker of the laws didnt specify so.

The harsh one said to have been found in hadith is for the married or those who were once married.

But the saying of Allah on the adultery or fornication or any name you give it is the same if we look at the situations ie asbab nuzul as said by the so called commentators of quran.
Allah said in Surat Nur:
"The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment." 24:2
(Pickthall translate the lone Arabic word Az-zaani as Adulterer while Shakir translate it as Furnicator but Yusuf ali used both.
they are all right as in arabic there is no difference between the two words)

Every muslim must agree with me that the said verse was revealed in connection to Mother of believers Ayesha the WIFE (MARRIED OR NOT MARRIED?) of the prophet (SAW) when some Medina hypocrites accussed her of commiting adultery.

In one of the popular stonning Hadith, Ma'iz (the adulterer) reported himself to the prophet...the prophet asked "IS THIS MAN DRUNK?", they said "No". He asked "IS HE SANE?" they replied "NO" and then he ordered them to go and stone him. It was reported while they are stonning him he tried to run away but they overpowered him and slain him. When they narrated it to the Prophet he said they should have let him go for that showed his repentance. Note that the prophet didnt ask whether he was married or not.

The point here is that Muslim used to stone their adulterers but later when surat Nur was revealed they Law was abrogated.

Having seen that I wonder which religion are we depending by depending Death Penalty: as if they say we should stop going to hajj. haba Muslims, are we that blood thirsty? I am not saying here that it is wrong to kill a murderer or somebody who commits treason; although it WRONG to kill an adulterer: but my point is that the laws are not rigid. they are flexible to suit the people who want to apply them. that is the beauty of Islam: FLEXIBILTY to suit all nations. Our holy book is made easy to understand in plain arabic. It is only unfortunate that our Ulamas instead of preaching the simplicity and flexibilty of Islam, they go extreme and make things difficult for the muslim. unless Muslim come to understand their religion full and shun extremist the like of Osama ben Laden and Talibans, they will remain in the background of the affairs of this world.

May Allah guide us to his straight path

Mr Fulcher makes serious points from a humanitarian point of view. The whole world is watching Nigeria and the case of Mallama Lawal. It is therfore very disappointing to read Al Hamza's very deeply offensive reply to this which does Kanoonline serious harm.(and, more important, which answers none of the points).
I have no love of the US - especially now, after its illegal and murderous assault on Iraq. The out-of-control US with a dangerous simpleton as President represents the greatest potential evil in the world today. There is also much racism still in the US. Many intelligent Americans,however, are totally opposed to the behaviour of their government.
However none of this has anything to do with the debate about whether a poor Nigerian girl should be stoned to death for adultery. So let us get the debate back on line.
Well said, Eskimo. Understanding is the key to everything.
A body of law is only as good as whoever is interpreting it. A judge should be highly intelligent, highly informed but know also the value of mercy and compassion.
There are some questions.
Did Amina commit Adultery by herself? (Not possible.)
Why are we hearing nothing from "the girls" on this topic?
If Amina was your sister (or your mother) should she be stoned?
Do the men never commit adultery in Nigeria?
Do we see many rich,important men (or women) in front of the Sharia court, or is it just the poor people?
Which of the contributors to Kano Online supporting stoning and amputation is without sin himself?

I always remember a remark made by an educationalist I worked with in KEDC many years ago, who was a wise, good and honest Kano man. He was talking about corruption ruining Nigeria (all those years ago). He said  to me. "Mr Hill, if we were to amputate the hands of all our thieves, there would be very few of our big men able to drive their Mercedes.Yet we still stone to death a poor, hungry man who steals some small bread in the market."
I pray (to my God, who is also your God) for Amina Lawal.

David, how old are you? Please get a life. Who is more likely to see prison in America a poor or wealthy person? Use your common sense and stop asking these ridiculous questions. If wrongdoers are made out of an example, people would shy from committing the sin or think twice. Just as theft; if criminals were amputated the American crime rate would lower drastically, and if adulters and fornicators were made an example of, shameful single parent households would not be so popular as they are in America and the west. It's obvious you have not been reading your Bible. Read the commandments and laws of Moses(A.S) I hope you are not a hippy. You talk about humanity while in America two men may live as a couple publicly. The west doesn't have the answers to everything, actually many times they make problems worse. They have their own social dilemmas to deal with that remain uncured, but they wish to point their fingers at others, while their hands are dirty.
  If one is able to read, Islam gives us the best solution to all problems.Islam is perfected, and following the laws and guidance of Allah(s.w.t) is the only straight path for all humanity, amiin. Al-Hamza made wonderful points. I read Jack's reply he needs teaching and his point, (if he had one) lost direction, but we must make the non-understanding, understand. And teach the young and the elderly, even if they are old and not thinking clearly.

Babatunde Eko
Illorin

Oh Amina Lawan...Run away and hide yourself from your killers. Will they listen to the holy prophet and admit that you are repentan and leave you alone or will they chase you and stone you again his Hadith.

If we are not careful Amina's case will be like that of Safiyyah - A minus to the muslim ummah.

Spill not the blood of Amina or any suppose adulterer or we should let the Innocent among us cast the first stone.

Guiness book of world records happens to be irish i understand and scots are really good pals of the irish i believe, mr dave, u know i accept am very stupid and a rediculous personality and a danger to the kanoonline forum, could you please verify this in the guiness book of world records? that 25% of the worlds prison population lives in the US? and that as low as 0.15% of the prison population lives in Saudi jail, most of them foriegners?
intrestingly the book also indicates that this is so because of the "harsh capital" punishment!!!

whatever u wanna call it, living in saudi is safer than living in the US..

its better for me to live in a sharia abiding nation, spending time with my family than to live in the US, where every weekend i'll go to a different club, my wife to another, my daughter ending up with a bastard in her stomach, my wife drinking and filing for divorce, myself driving like a mad man, killing innocent people, making thier mothers cry on the couch while all i get punished by is having my driver's liscense snatched, my son ending up on drugs or marrijuana,

spending my last days in an "old home" where my eyes would close when i die without seeing my loved ones,

mr dave, sorry

u have lost the case

case closed

I suggest you guys should take the issue of your nationalities to another topic.
you are please killing an interesting topic.
we are only talking about death penalty not i hate america i love saudi or whatever.
if u dont have any solid thing to offer better leqave us alone! 8)

Salam
I more or less agree with Eskimo's proposition. We are missing the point here. The issue at stake is the relevance of death penalty in the 21st century. Obviously some despise it while some, like myself, see it as an efficient punishment of ridding the society of certain offenders.
Mr Fulcher for you not to see the similarities between the Patroit act and the Sharia-act means you are been selectively perceptive. The patriot act does not call for amputation or killing, but what I wanted to convey in using it was, both laws were made by elected representatives of the people.
Going back to Regan, are you saying that, no laws exist in the US statutes that call for killing traitors? Just because Regan was left off the hook does not mean others would not face a more dire fate when caught spying (especially with the bigot?? & Racist?? Ashcroft in the helms of the Justice ministry).
Lastly, Salman Rushdie is yet another case of cultural perception of the 'magnitude of crime'. True, in the western pysche, free speech is condoned even when it borders sacrilage. For a spritual communities like Nigeria, Iran or Saudi Arabia divine laws are taken seriously and they are beyond challenge. So, you must understand that defiling the prophet in speech or otherwise is a capital offense in Muslim communities and the punishment is most severe indeed.
There are laws in the western society that do not make sense to Muslims. This might include but not limited to the laws on polygamy. Polygamy is a felony in all 50 states of the US of A.
Do you see my point. IE the world is different and as such different laws exists to deal with similar crimes.
I rest my case
Bissalam

Hi everyone!  This has certainly been an interesting discussion.  I am hopeful, after reading some of the posts, that there is a bright future for beautiful Nigeria and that its students will be able to lift the country out of poverty through their thoughtful leadership.  My primay point for my initial post was one reiterated by Eskimo, that unless muslims reject the extreme teachings and practices of some of their clerics, the Taliban, and bin Laden, "they will remain in the background in the affairs of this world."  You are certainly free to stone women and amputate thieves, but the world is watching you and investors will not be interested in your country and tourists will shun you.  You might argue that this is of little interest to you, that you prefer isolation and care little for economic development, but I really don't believe that.  You do, after all, send your brightest students to study in the West, and I know that this is because you want your lives, and the lives of your parents and children, to be better.  This will not happen if you continue to tell the world that you wish instead to live in the 7th century.

I say that I am hopeful, and this is even after reading the posts of al Hamza and Babatunde Eko, which are personally offensive and, frankly, childish.  They at least are willing to participate in a dialogue about their country and future.  This is very important, as many young people are just not interested in discussing politics or social problems.  

I will try to address some of the points made in the last several posts (I need to go soon as this is our "Labor Day" weekend and one of our national holidays).  First, I am appalled that you, al Hamza, support Saddam (or as you call him, "His Excellency General Saddam").  This guy killed more Muslims than any other person in history.  He butchered the Kurds, often using chemical weapons on them, and then butchered the Shiites.  As a Muslim you should be happy that he is gone.  I never have understood why other Muslim countries stood by why he was killing so many of his own Muslim people, yet are so quick to criticize the US when they do the work of removing him.  I personally did not support this war and have no use for Bush (I'm a Democrat and voted for Gore), but you must admit that the world is a much better place now that Saddam and his murderous sons are out of the picture.  You're welcome.

You also make several more points that have nothing to do with the topic, such as problems in the US or problems with Israel, but the "Advisor" makes a good point that this has nothing to do with the issue at hand:  whether it is reasonable to take the life of this young woman because she has committed adultry.  I will say, however al Hamza, that my mother is 82 and does not date, and if you come over to her house she will probably kick your butt. ;)

Some here have made the point that crimes should be punished, and what better punishment is there than to kill the person?  Certainly this will teach them a lesson.  Excuse my sarcasm, but the general argument that harsh punishment is needed to deter criminal behavior is good up to a point, but you could use the same argument to say that you should be killed for even simple traffic violations.  It is not sufficient to say that there is less theft now that you've started to amputate arms - of course there is.  Why not just kill the thieves?  That will reduce the crime rate, certainly.  No, you must balance your desire to reduce crime with the interests of justice and fairness for your people.  These sorts of punishments were abandoned by the civilized world many centuries ago.  In my country, we punish petty theft with time in prison, and if the crime is violent (like using a weapon during the theft) the punishment is several years in prison.  We have the death penalty, but it almost always applies to multiple murders.  In California, if you commit three or more felonies, you get life in prison.  I consider this harsh, but my point is that there are ways to deter crime without amputations or killing for such things as adultry.  

I'd like to quote from something I found elsewhere on the Kanoonline.com web site.  This is from an article written by Ibraheem A. Waziri at http://www.kanoonline.com/cgi-bin/articles/template.php/iaw010.txt.  He relates a story about the Prophet who had to judge a common problem:

"The son of one slept with the wife of the other. There and then our beloved Prophet ordered that the son be caned and exiled for one year and summoned Unais Al-aslamiy to go and ask the wife, with clear instruction to stone her in the event of her confession. So she confessed and so she was stoned."  One of the things that disturbs me about this quote is that the writer made no comment.  Does he not see the injustice of the treatment of the individuals here?  The man was beaten with a stick and exiled for a year, while the woman was killed.  Muslims profess to love their wives and daughters, yet seem to think this sort of "justice" is just fine.  They say that Westerners do not respect women because they are allowed to wear clothing that reveals their faces, arms and legs, yet if a Muslim woman is raped, she cannot have the rapist punished unless there are four male witnesses who are willing to testify for her.  If she reports the rape, and if she cannot get four men to speak for her (and how often is there even one witness to a rape?), under Shariah law, "she’ll be convicted of false testimony and sentenced for having intercourse outside marriage."  (From the same article)  So this means that a raped woman had better just shut up, or she'll be killed under this law.  It looks to me like you just want men to have their way with women, and if they complain they'll be executed.  Do you not love your sisters, mothers, daughters?  What sort of world are you creating for them with these sorts of laws?  Can you see how the rest of the world is appalled at your implementation of Shariah?

Eskimo and Mr. Hill make good points when they say that the laws of Islam should be applied with judgement and flexibility.  The Christian bible also talks of stoning and harsh punishments, but even the most fundamentalist of Christians realize that these punishments are not appropriate for the modern world.  Our punishments are designed to both deter crime and balance the freedoms necessary for a happy and productive society.  These are the goals I am sure you all want for your families and descendants.  Please don't isolate yourselves from the rest of the world.

Have a lot more to say, but have to go.
Peace.  Jack Fulcher

Quote"The son of one slept with the wife of the other. There and then our beloved Prophet ordered that the son be caned and exiled for one year and summoned Unais Al-aslamiy to go and ask the wife, with clear instruction to stone her in the event of her confession. So she confessed and so she was stoned." ?
??? ??? ???

??? ???

Quote"The son of one slept with the wife of the other. There and then our beloved Prophet ordered that the son be caned and exiled for one year and summoned Unais Al-aslamiy to go and ask the wife, with clear instruction to stone her in the event of her confession. So she confessed and so she was stoned."  
??? ??? ??? serious that is.... ???

This argument on death penalty is quite ineresting. we shd ask ourselves if society n laws r for the protection of the many or of the individual. the western world's protection of individual human rights -including those of menaces to the society- hav given rise to the dangerous world the white man lives in. conversely, ideologies like sharia & communism stress public good but risk abusing each member of the public individually. if u want to punish a criminal death is easy cos nobody knows what happens after death and killing someone just might b d end of his problems. it is the living that have problems. i suggest abolishment of the death penalty so that criminals can regret at leisure. what is the point of putting someone in prison n giving him books, a gym and even conjugal visits? i like ancient china where punishments ranged from mutilation to torture. that way if a pedophile's balls r crushed n his asshole skewered, he will be a living example.

QuoteThis argument on death penalty is quite ineresting. we shd ask ourselves if society n laws r for the protection of the many or of the individual. the western world's protection of individual human rights -including those of menaces to the society- hav given rise to the dangerous world the white man lives in. conversely, ideologies like sharia & communism stress public good but risk abusing each member of the public individually. if u want to punish a criminal death is easy cos nobody knows what happens after death and killing someone just might b d end of his problems. it is the living that have problems. i suggest abolishment of the death penalty so that criminals can regret at leisure. what is the point of putting someone in prison n giving him books, a gym and even conjugal visits? i like ancient china where punishments ranged from mutilation to torture. that way if a pedophile's balls r crushed n his asshole skewered, he will be a living example.

As a muslims i think to even think of abolishing death penalty is like arguing with what Allah has ordained us to doo,'cos it was stated that "an nafsi bin nafs"and to now said that we are no more interested on those punishment is uncalled for,and even from the socila aspect of it we are inviting trouble,i  agree with bashir's views.

Seems that lots of people can maker a lot of noise on this issue but nobody can answer any of the points I raised. So let me raise them again. (First let me say I am opposed to the death penalty generally on a number of grounds but mainly that many innocent people have been executed in mistake and it tends to be the poor that get the executions while the rich avoid them. I do concede,however, that there can be powerful arguements in favour of the death penalty in cases of treason, mutiny and murder. The US state (Texas) that executes most people also has the highest murder rate, so there is no evidence that the death penalty stops potential murderers.)
I can see no moral arguement for execution for adultery.
Let me ask my questions again.
Can a woman commit adultery alone?
Do men in Nigeria commit no adultery?
Which man is being threatened with stoning to death for adultery?
Where in the Holy Quoran does it insist that women be killed for adultery?
We see plenty poor people in the Sharia court. How many "big men" do you see in the Sharia - or is stealing billions of Naira from the nation less sinful than a poor man stealing a chicken or a few Naira?
And please, no ranting on about the state of society in the US or Saudi Arabia. They have no relevance to this particular issue and are just being brought up because some people wouldn't like to answer my questions.
As a matter of interest I live in Kilmun, Dunoon in Scotland. We have very few crimes, no murders and our women are perfectly safe in our streets.Yet we do not execute and we do not mutilate thieves (though we used to drown women we suspected of being witches hundreds of years ago when we were still savages). The key to the eradication of most crime is to provide a society in which all have equal opportunity and everybody will have a home, enough to eat and bring up children by having work which pays adequate wages.
The best way to stop adultery is to demand self-control from men!
Perhaps that's asking too much.

kai!

oya scotsman, ya isa kaji ko!!!

(its enough, do u understand that)

leave us alone with our religion!!

do u understand that? why dont u do yur crusade in india? where in the bushes women are burned alive with thier dead husbands (since they believe the widow has no right to survive anymore)

which muslim country has spoken against the appointment of your openly gay bishop?  

its better for us muslims to consider doing adultry (axtaghfurullah) than to be "gay"

its a shame, now you'll start shouting that you dont belong to that church and bla bla bla,

abeg commot fo road, go deal with your own problems and allow us to continue in our so-called "stone-age" rules,

got the point? or is the scotch wiskey still working?

Interesting discussion of course,

May be we should start with the story of McVeigh, Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma bomber. Who gave out the following poem to be his last statement, he did not write the poem, but he believed the poem expressed the best of his feelings at the moment of the execution. Let us read the poem together:


Out of the night that covers me
Black as the pit from pole to pole
I thank whatever gods maybe
For my unconquerable soul

In the fell clutches of circumstances
I have not winced nor cried aloud
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody but unbowed

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the horror of the shade
And the menace of the years
Finds and shall find me unafraid

It matters not how straight the gate
How charged with punishments the scroll
I am the captain of my soul
I am the master of my fate

For those among us who do not appreciate poetry McVeigh is saying, going by the above poem, that he has NO REGRET whatsoever for killing over 100 souls. He is saying also that it is his fate, which he chose for himself. Now for God sake tell me my dear reader. Can you afford to share neighbourhood with him if he were freed?

If you are to share neighbourhood with him you would live in horror, your wife, your children, your very self. Every day, in constant terror, for he is not but a terrorist as such before he strikes again I suggest he should be killed.

How do you like the idea? This is the sole reason why we are looking for Osama bin Laden today to kill, and this is why we have killed the two sons of Saddam, because if allowed they will strike again. A murderer is a terrorist who not only kills but also terrorises and therefore must go. Simple.

I really find reason to intervene here only because I see myself being not only quoted out of context by Jack Fulcher but also framing a statement only to feign on my innocent self. I went through my article but did not see where I said:

Quote

as he claimed.

I am afraid, but I must say Jack Fulcher is here only to make mischief not to understand, he uses sentiment and propaganda as if his intentions are to make noise without adequate information. In his first reply to Amin he said:  

"Please stop this nonsense and join the rest of the world in the 21st century!  Thank you."

One here would be tempted to ask as to who the rest of the world are, which are the majority who abolished death penalty?

Are they Europe or Asia and Africa? Which ones are the majority and which ones are the minority?

Every thing of Jack here is based on sentiment not reason, opinion not fact as such I don't think he is somebody ready to engage in an intellectual discourse.

But for the sake of the majority here who really and sincerely are out to understand let me make some few clarifications.

First, in Islamic Shari'a, the punishment for adultery is stoning and for fornication it is caning. In the Hadith quoted out of context by Jack above the young man was caned because he committed fornication and the woman was stoned only because she committed adultery.

Second, for the attention of Eskimo, it is true that Islamic jurisprudence draws not only from Qur'an but the practice of the prophet and the consensus of Ulama'a but what is most important is law must have epistemological link to the Qur'an and Sunnah. And in matters of interpretations of Qur'anic verses and law, it is understood that whatever is said to be sanctioned by God to the Israelites is also sanctioned to us unless if Qur'an clearly provided an alternative. Islam is understood to be nothing more than the continuation of Christianity and Judaism if only they had remained pure and unaltered. And I also feel Eskimo should provide proofs that the Hadiths that confirmed death penalty to adulterers are of doubtful authority. We can pursue that in the Mustalahul hadith(science of Hadith) and see.

Concerning the apostates, it should be understood in Islam that treason can only be to the Islamic Nation not a country or tribe but to the brotherhood only. And for one after signing the contracts and accepting the conditions to compromise that loyalty is seen as offence enough to be killed. The verse that proclaims "no compulsion in religion" remains relevant only to those who have not yet joined the brotherhood.

Third, I support death by stoning. You ask me why? Okay because the Prophet of Islam suggested so. And there is no man on earth today who can claim being more compassionate, going by the records of history, more fair, more just than him. Give me an example of compassion or respect for human person today and I will give you its parallel in the time of the holy Prophet. This also add to the fact that punishments in Islam are not solely because they deter but also demonstrate to feelings of everybody the gravity of the offences committed and cleanse the environment from known nuisances, psychopaths like McVeigh.

Finally, it should be clear that the entire debate on law lies on the philosophy of the societies in question. Their definition of right and wrong, their concepts of good and evil and the ideal image of the kind of societies they want to produce. Those from the West or their supporters here must know first the entire framework of the kind of society the West wants to produce in the light of their philosophy before they can tell us they are rightier than us. If they cannot then they should know that they would not convince anybody around here. They will only end up making jest of themselves.

For me I know that in Islamic philosophy man is here on earth to perform DUTIES and OBLIGATIONS not to seek for FREEDOM and LIBERTY. In Islam man is already known to be free, as such no freedom here to seek but obligations to fulfil as mentioned by Jesus: "Do unto others what you would have them do unto you" Matthew 9:12. These are the bases of our laws.

We will discuss this further when some Westerner brings up the objectivesof Law in the West.

Jack also made an allegation in his emotional way in his last reply, which implied that our laws are what make us stay backward in this world. I really don’t think so. We are backward today only because the West does not give room for a purposeful and directional leadership in our countries. It does away with any leader who comes with the intention of bringing 'golden eggs"to his ppl. Our history is full of examples of this nature. Even dictators like Saddam enjoyed the support of USA in their dictatorship before they became invalid and denied USA what she wanted.

Yes, Jack we come to West and read unlike the West who come to us to sell weapons. We are also glad that the records of history have something like what the Nobel Prize winner in literature told the West in his Nobel Lecture 1988.



"As for Islamic civilization I will not talk about its call for the establishment of a union between all Mankind under the guardianship of the Creator, based on freedom, equality and forgiveness. Nor will I talk about the greatness of its prophet. For among your thinkers there are those who regard him the greatest man in history. I will not talk of its conquests, which have planted thousands of minarets calling for worship, devoutness and good throughout great expanses of land from the environs of India and China to the boundaries of France. Nor will I talk of the fraternity between religions and races that has been achieved in its embrace in a spirit of tolerance unknown to Mankind neither before nor since."

He went ahead further to state:

"I will, instead, introduce that civilization in a moving dramatic situation summarizing one of its most conspicuous traits: In one victorious battle against Byzantium it has given back its prisoners of war in return for a number of books of the ancient Greek heritage in philosophy, medicine and mathematics. This is a testimony of value for the human spirit in its demand for knowledge, even though the demander was a believer in God and the demanded a fruit of a pagan civilization."

You see my dear reader, this is our ideology our dream for the world right from the 6th century BC but the West after over 1000 yrs conspired its way up to the leadership of the world and destroyed this foundation. Imagine where we would be to day in the appreciation of human mind had the West did not do its intellectual treason by coming up with false scientific theories like theory of evolution to justify the massacre of countless human souls?  Had the idea of Nationalism did not come up? Had the idea of dividing human beings into nations and tribes in terms of countries did not come?  

The West should live us alone, let it not fight our ideologies and ways of life, let it allow us control our politics; this millennium is the millennium of Islamic virtues and moral values. Let it remember that we have survived the cruelties of communism. If it cannot remember, at least, let it know that we are still around.

my favorite apostle among the twelve disciples is doubting thomas. why? bcos he was d most sensible. if jesus cd appear to peter n co. then he shd appear to him as well. he refused to believe in hearsay. those of us that base our arguments on ancient scrolls shd realise that they are all hearsay. someone says god spoke to him n cos he was quite convincing ppl believed in him. faith is a funny thing cos anybody can claim it. according to all the scriptures, god has a habit of getting angry n turning on his current favorites. the profusion of systems (religion is just one more system among many) in the world and their competing claims shd make us examine them. why else do we have brains if we cant question everything?  i think that if we r to believe everything god is supposed to have said about himself, then he chose a very inefficient way of saving us n showing his love for us.

To my brother Waziri, I am not doubting the authenticity of the Hadith?in fact it is because I believe in that is why I quoted it.
My arguent is that I see no where in that hadith or a similar hadith where the MARITAL STATUS was asked despite its importance in differentiating whether the accused will live or die.
You reminded me of a point: let me quote you ?And in matters of interpretations of Qur'anic verses and law, it is understood that whatever is said to be sanctioned by God to the Israelites is also sanctioned to us unless if Qur'an clearly provided an ALTERNATIVE? in this case are we not given an alternative?

The hadith of stonning: going by the traditions of the Prophet is a prove to your reminder. In the early suras of Medinah when the muslim ummah was in early stage, a verse was revealed saying " Those who come up with it (adultery, carnal sin) you should punish them." that is all. no punishment was prescribed. As a continuation of christianity and judaism what do you expect to happen? look back in the former revelation of Allah in the Torah a punishment was prescribed so the prophet applied it. That made it a Hadith. I dont know when the Stonning Hadith took place but going by reason you have to accept it is early in Medinah.
Later towards the end of the Prophets life (This is for sure check the time for the revelation of Surat -Nur it was long after Hudaibiyyah: barely a year to the death of the Prophet) the case of Aisha and the hypocrites happened and then the surat al Nur was revealed clearly addressing the problem. Can you mentione any stonning that took place at that time? please revisit your Tarikh al Islam. Please was Aisha Married or not married then? Please read from verse 1-10.

Let me help you with some point:

1.  If someone accused another of adultery he should come up with 4 witnesses (not pregnancy :D) or else he will be punished.

2.  If the witnesses are given, the adulterer is to be flogged.

3.  In the case of married accused and the witnesses are not available, then if the marriage patner is not satisfied (why should one be satisfied with AIDS in town) then taking oath come in.

Glory be to Allah the Best Law Maker!

But I dont know may be we are still expected to fluck out our eyes when they push us to commit sin as said by Jesus since our religion is the continuation of his teaching with no abrogation and changes in Law for a bettter society.

Peace on those who follw guidance

To my brother Waziri, I am not doubting the authenticity of the Hadith?in fact it is because I believe in that is why I quoted it.
My arguent is that I see no where in that hadith or a similar hadith where the MARITAL STATUS was asked despite its importance in differentiating whether the accused will live or die.
You reminded me of a point: let me quote you ?And in matters of interpretations of Qur'anic verses and law, it is understood that whatever is said to be sanctioned by God to the Israelites is also sanctioned to us unless if Qur'an clearly provided an ALTERNATIVE? in this case are we not given an alternative?

The hadith of stonning: going by the traditions of the Prophet is a prove to your reminder. In the early suras of Medinah when the muslim ummah was in early stage, a verse was revealed saying " Those who come up with it (adultery, carnal sin) you should punish them." that is all. no punishment was prescribed. As a continuation of christianity and judaism what do you expect to happen? look back in the former revelation of Allah in the Torah a punishment was prescribed so the prophet applied it. That made it a Hadith. I dont know when the Stonning Hadith took place but going by reason you have to accept it is early in Medinah.
Later towards the end of the Prophets life (This is for sure check the time for the revelation of Surat -Nur it was long after Hudaibiyyah: barely a year to the death of the Prophet) the case of Aisha and the hypocrites happened and then the surat al Nur was revealed clearly addressing the problem. Can you mentione any stonning that took place at that time? please revisit your Tarikh al Islam. Please was Aisha Married or not married then? Please read from verse 1-10.

Let me help you with some point:

1.  If someone accused another of adultery he should come up with 4 witnesses (not pregnancy :D) or else he will be punished.

2.  If the witnesses are given, the adulterer is to be flogged.

3.  In the case of married accused and the witnesses are not available, then if the marriage patner is not satisfied (why should one be satisfied with AIDS in town) then taking oath comes in.

Glory be to Allah the Best Law Maker!

But I dont know may be we are still expected to fluck out our eyes when they push us to commit sin as said by Jesus since our religion is the continuation of his teaching with no abrogation and changes in Law for a bettter society.

Peace on those who follow guidance

...I just read this hadith from the sahih al Bukhari..

Volume 8, Book 81, Number 778:
Narrated 'Aisha:

Usama approached the Prophet on behalf of a woman (who had committed theft). The Prophet said, "The people before you were destroyed because they used to inflict the legal punishments on the POOR and forgive the RICH. By Him in Whose Hand my soul is! If Fatima (the daughter of the Prophet ) did that (i.e. stole), I would cut off her hand."

our sharia governors where are they taking us to?

Bravo Eskimo! Bravo Bashir! At least some people are trying to discuss this issue seriously and not just shouting abuse.
(As a matter of interest I am a poor Christian (Catholic) but I have many Moslem relatives.)

Mr Jack Fulcher, where have you gone? You started this.

I'm here, Mr. Hill.  Just got back from a bridge tournament and am very tired.  I just scanned the new posts and am very interested in what everyone is saying.  I hope we can keep the discussion civil and not call each other names and impute bad motives to others writings.  In any case, it's very late and my wife and I am tired, so will respond tomorrow.  Jack

so mr jack and mr dave,

what we have here, we have to make clear is,

are you against the shariah in our northern states? or are you against sharia anywhere it is?

plus do u believe, the laws you made for us during your colonial periods are the laws that can be the only and the best solutions?

does your law help us catch the rich thieves according to you? and the shariah fails to do that?

Eskimo, i am pleased to hear such genuiness about the posts you have made, but our christian friends/"intruders", see it in a different light, so Eskimo lets make something clear, are you also against or are you for shariah? and if you are for shariah and believe that stonning and be-heading should stop, then i guess you should go back to greenland and do some fishing with your red-indian brothers and eat raw flesh,

there is nothing like "modern islam" because we all know that the Prophet has said that the signs of the end of days is when muslims will forget about thier religion,

i aint no saint but i aint no mad man too, you can continue with your "ideas" because what is to happen must happen, its inevitable, you see its a must that it happens. the down fall of Islam, and it will come from the inside, and it would be helped by outsiders,

it has begun over a hundred years back, the british helped bring down the Othmania kingdom in Arabia and since then we have had only set-backs,

and i will say this again, dave "thanks for bieng in nigeria and for serving us, we are really gratefull for your services, but it doesnt mean you should interfer in our culture and our RELIGION"!

as for jack,

hows the gay bishop doing? has he molested any kid again? are you gonna feel free attending the services in that church with your family every sunday?

i think you have enough problems, you shouldnt worry about us,

"people that live in glass churches should not throw scotch wiskey bottles at others"

is that understood?

time to break silence

To answer the question: as a Christian, I would naturally oppose the death penalty, because that is the way of Christ. But Nigeria is a SECULAR state (or at least it used to be). Thus I must say that this decision should be made by the National Assembly, or the states should decide for themselves. OBJ has much better and more serious matters to worry about that the death penalty. This is just pandering to the EU, and a diversion for the easily polarised Nigerians from the real issues of stagnant economy and fuel scarcity.

Na wa for us o, when I saw this topic, I thought it would boil down to a social discussion on the effectiveness of the death penalty on curbing crime. But lo and behold, here we are discussing Sharia, deja vu. Lol.

I've challenged Northern Nigeria's sharia on this forum for so long, not on the basis of religious difference or barbarism, but on simple logistics. It's good to see that finally ppl here are beginning to ASK QUESTIONS about the system, instead of swallowing wholesale the ideas of their politicians. What's eating most of us pro-death penalty ppl here is that the abolitionist arguments are being made by foreigners on this forum. So instead of answering their questions, some of you have conveniently sidetracked yourselves by heaping slander on the 'christian crusaders' of Scotland and the U.S. of A.

So Al Hamza, I beseech you, by the mercies of God, to stop insulting others on this forum. You are a senior member for goodness' sake. Why can't you make a mature, sensible contribution to topics like this? Borrow a leaf from the likes of Amin and Waziri. Answer the gentleman's questions, instead of making cynical comments on his supposed ethnic and religious background. Who told you Mr. Fulcher and Mr. Hill are Christians? In fact, where did you ever read that the West is Christian? If you must slap a tag on the West, then it is called materialism, not Christianity. And drop the gay bishop issue, it has no relevance. You brought it up a while back during my discussion with BARDE on the Islamic forum, and I ignored it then. I won't say a word about it until u start to show some respect around here, because that is how you spoil discussions. Stop slandering Christianity with every swipe on the West, and stop belittling other muslims u think have lost their way. Eskimo is not now a fool just because, he though muslim, does not like the idea of stoning for adultery. This is KanoOnline, not your backyard. We should be happy that foreigners even deemed it fit to join. So please, start showing some respect around here. Otherwise, I have no further recourse but to ask the admin to step in and stop, even delete abusive tirades like yours on this forum. Abeg make u hear word now!

Finally, we never hear from the girls yet. FDQ, Ummita, Fulanicious and the rest, we dey wait for una!

lionger

Hello all.
The mere fact that we are discussing our issues not violentlybullying our way through (like America and the UK did in Iraq) means we are all civilised well meaning individuals. Getting back to the issue at hand, has anyone noticed that all the Muslims have taken a unified position for the death penalty whilst all others oppose it? This underscores a very important point.
Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said, and i am para phrasing now, the unbelievers will never relent in their opposition to the Muslim way of way till the Muslims compromise and adopt the attributes and characteristics of the unbelievers of that time.
What this says is this. All the guys opposing death penalty wants us to abolish it so that we can ?live like they do (ie compromise) We MUST NEVER DO THAT. it is non-negotiable. Just because the majority of the world do not have execution does not mean it's wrong.
Actually, think of this for a minute. Why do the civilsed countries of the US and UK ( where Jack and David live ?respectively) wage war, a euphimism for killing your adversary, if they believe shedding human blood is morally bankrupt? If a proof exists that suggests killing is OK in the event of War then our dear friends to the left must agree that we also have this certain instance when killing is sanctioned in Islam.
For those Muslims who doubt the killing of adulterers, know this. The prophet did indeed ordered the killing of a woman and a man all accused of commiting adultery. He was reluctant to pass that judgement on them as learned ulama say. The hadith Eskimo quoted is indeed sahih.
We must know this however. That concealing your sin is prefered when one commits the dreaded act. (Hadith ?1048 narrated by Abdullah Ibn Umar, Bulugh-al-maram kitabil hudud).
Finally, I suggest we end this discussion because we are, in comparison to the guys taking ?the other side, like apple and oranges. They are not Muslims and their level of iman is such in a deplorable state that they cannot fathom or even ratioinalize this divine law.
As always, may Allah forgive our mistakes.
CIAO.

PS: Dave are you disputing the fact that having a baby out of wedlock is sufficient evidence for a conviction. Also, this Amina Lawal you are supporting confessed to commiting the said crime and she can retract that confession if she wishes. All that is needed of Amina is to say she was forced to confess and she will be free, hopefully. The man she accused of impregnating her swore that he hadnt done it, so he was set free.

QuoteFinally, we never hear from the girls yet. FDQ, Ummita, Fulanicious and the rest, we dey wait for una!
lionger

Read all, seen alot of views
but....................mhmmmmmm all I know 4 a fact iz that......Death has got something 2 b said for it: There'z no need 2 get out of bed 4 it; Whereeva u may b, They bring it 2 u, free....................(no need 4 death penalty jo!)

Any1 can stop a man's life, but no one his death; a thousand doors open on to it. Why rule out a death penalty on humans?..........Death will take all, anyway!!!!!

QuoteFor those Muslims who doubt the killing of adulterers, know this. The prophet did indeed ordered the killing of a woman and a man all accused of commiting adultery. He was reluctant to pass that judgement on them as learned ulama say. The hadith Eskimo quoted is indeed sahih.
We must know this however. That concealing your sin is prefered when one commits the dreaded act. (Hadith ?1048 narrated by Abdullah Ibn Umar, Bulugh-al-maram kitabil hudud).
Also, this Amina Lawal you are supporting confessed to commiting the said crime and she can retract that confession if she wishes. All that is needed of Amina is to say she was forced to confess and she will be free, hopefully. The man she accused of impregnating her swore that he hadnt done it, so he was set free.

And puhleeeeeeeeez 4 this! Shariah ruled out death penalty on adultery committers if ONLY there r witnesses who hav seen them in d actual act!!!!!

4 Amina Lawal, THEY said she has committed adultery.........who has caught her in d act? Even if she has been caugth, HOW MANY PPL WITNESSED IT?!

Duz Shariah state that we shud give a death penalty 2 any1 who has commited adultery even wen one PARTY denies d fact? :-/

If they say Amina has been found guilty & she happen 2 mention her partner, why shud he b set free? If she is 2 b stoned 2 death, so well, 4 her partner.

mhmmm some what funny @ tyms d way ppl go on bout Shariahs rulin of adult committers. Let me leave it 4 d REAL scholars. Back 2 d issue @ stake.......was sum1 sayin something?

Atleast the girls have noticed the injustice. "why not convict the man?" Nice observation, Ummita.

Al_Hamzah.. I am a serious supporter of Sharia law. Who am I to disbelieve  what the almighty himself enshrined? only that I want to see it being done the way is should be done.

Let me give you an example of 3 Islamic states I know of.

Pakistan rules based on sharia-minus stonning the adulterer-no fuse nobody ever raised anything against them.

Let us forget about this issue since nobody is ready to read and understand other people's post.

Peace.
Iran a strict muslim country does not apply stonning..infact stonning is not in the shites code at all.

Saudia a strict sunnah country applied stonning..but who in sudia will complain of any social amenity? they have good economy, zakkat system..I am common has no caus to worry.

What of Northern Nigeria today?

I also have nothing against death penalty for crimes involving lost of life not adultery for Godsake or apostacy.

Atleast the girls have noticed the injustice. "why not convict the man?" Nice observation, Ummita.

Al_Hamzah.. I am a serious supporter of Sharia law. Who am I to disbelieve  what the almighty himself enshrined? only that I want to see it being done the way is should be done.

Let me give you an example of 3 Islamic states I know of.

Pakistan rules based on sharia-minus stonning the adulterer-no fuse nobody ever raised anything against them.

Iran a strict muslim country does not apply stonning..infact stonning is not in the shites code at all.

Saudia a strict sunnah country applied stonning..but who in sudia will complain of any social amenity? they have good economy, zakkat system..I am common has no caus to worry.

What of Northern Nigeria today?

I also have nothing against death penalty for crimes involving lost of life not adultery for Godsake or apostacy.

Let us forget about this issue since nobody is ready to read and understand other people's post.

Peace.

Hello to all!  

I had a nice long weekend and when I got back I checked this board, and already we have three pages of posts!  A lot to read on such a hot topic.  I agree with Bashir that why would Allah (or God) give us brains if He hadn't intended us to use them and question everything?  This is a good mental exercise (for me, at least), and just think that it is all because we have the internet.  Ten years ago we would not have been able to have this discussion, but now here I am, some old white guy sitting in California talking with interesting, intelligent people from Africa and Scotland.  I think this is the most amazing development of science during my lifetime (right up there with putting cheese in an aerosol spray can).

I respectfully disagree with al Hamza and, to a certain extent, Waziri, who say that we should leave them alone.  Al Hamza says that we all just disagree on these issues, and that we have no business trying to discuss them.  Amin has expressed similar sentiments.  This sort of discussion was what the internet was made for in the first place.  Information, ideas, answers to questions, cooking recipies, even pictures of your new baby can be transmitted around the world in a few seconds.  Isolation is becomming harder and harder.  The kind of isolation Al Hamza and Waziri desire is no longer possible.  This is one of the reasons I sought out this sort of forum.  If you look at the Yahoo.com website, you can find plenty of chat rooms that are talking about this and other international issues, but they are all Westerners.  I already know what they have to say (and I am ashamed to say that some of the comments about this particular issue are pretty insulting.  They sound like a little al Hamza, but with a Western bias.).  (Sorry, a-H)  But the Kanoonline.com forum is refreshing in that you have expressed your views for the most part intelligently and with grace, and have made me feel welcome.

Sorry to ramble.  Too much bridge makes my brain boil.

Bashir also made an interesting point regarding underlying goals of society, and Waziri touched on this as well.  Bashir suggested that there is a tension between what is good for the individual, and what is good for the society, and this may help to explain differences in viewpoint on this issue.  I tend to agree with this.  All of life is an experiment, especially when it comes to how people should behave.  This is why we have sought out laws and religions.  In Europe all of the decisions were once made by the church and the king (or local leaders).  People didn't think they were actually separate from the church, and did not question the teachings or decisions of the church.  What they did for a living was dictated by tradition, they married whomever their parents chose, they lived in the same village in which they were born, and they never changed.  What was produced and consumed was dictated by the church or king.  This was necessary for the continuation of the village and no one questioned it (or if they did, they were stoned or burned).  

A few hundred years ago Europeans started to think differently, and started to make their own decisions.  They found that if they made their own decisions about what to do, where to live, and whom to marry, the world didn't end.  They created free markets, production was determined by what everyone wanted and were willing to buy, and economic growth increased substantially.  

There were tradeoffs, of course, as there are for any decision.  For instance, if you didn't work you had to starve (this was before there was a lot of welfare for the poor).  You might make bad choices about career or family, and you had no one else to blame for them.  People sometimes feel insecure if they don't know what to do with their lives, like they often feel in college.  If they lose their job, they have to find another one and that is very hard and often takes a long time.

On the other hand, the benefits of economic development from these new markets tend to give people a lot of choices in their lives.  I've lived in several states, each time with a good and interesting job.  You say that there is a lot of crime, but I don't notice it.  San Francisco is a safe place to live and walk around, even though there are small parts of the city that are probably less safe as they are poor and crime is higher.  This is true of any large city, and we all learn where not to go.  I've never been robbed and none of the women I know have ever been raped.

My point is that there are tradeoffs between the interests of individual freedom and development, and the individual's subservience to the society or state.  I guess this was the big thing about Communism, where decisions were still being made by only a few centralized people.  It seems that Communism, with all the best intentions in the world, just couldn't produce for its people the way free markets can.

Waziri says that Islam doesn't seek freedom and liberty, that obligation and duty to society is the right goal.  He argues that under Islam man is already free, that it is not necessary for individuals to be free in the same way they are in the West.  I can't believe this.  This sounds more like the "freedom" experienced by the slaves my country once owned.  When the slaves were first set free in 1865, many chose to stay with their former owners since it was too hard to go out and make their own way for most, and many said that they had a better life as slaves.  It took years of struggle by the former slaves and their descendents before they were able to develop the large middle class they have today.  

Would Waziri have them stay as slaves, to have all their decisions made for them?  The Muslims I know are not slaves.  They all desire what we all want - a comfortable life, an interesting and rewarding job, and a better life for their children.  That is my goal, Mr. Waziri.  The reason I first came to this forum was to give my opinion that, if this is the goal of Nigerians, and I believe it is, that some of the very extreme things they are doing, such as stoning women who commit adultry, will interfere with this goal because they cannot isolate themselves like this and still develop economically.  I will not open a branch of my business there because my female workers will be at risk from such harsh Shariah laws.  The men will, as well.  I understand that you allow men to violate your laws, such as the law against alcoholic beverages, but I could not take that risk.  Similarly, when my wife and I travel, we would not even consider a trip to your beautiful part of the world.  I would not want to subject her, or myself, to such risks.  I know this is the attitude of the typical Westerner.

Speaking of stoning, I saw a tape of someone in Iran being stoned.  I found it at http://www.iran-e-azad.org/stoning/video.html .  It apparently had to be smuggled out of the country.  If they are so proud of their enforcement of such laws, why don't they broadcast it to the whole world?  Are they ashamed?  Are they afraid that foreign investment or tourism will be impaired?

I've been writing this for over an hour, but must catch up on my work.  I'll pick up from here tomorrow, if you allow...

Peace, Jack

Most impressed,

At least everybody can see now that we have reached some stage. Abolishment of death penalty is no longer the issue.

What remain are the use of religious laws as raised by Bashir and the use of some technicalities related to the epistemological link of the laws as pointed out by Eskimo.

But let me respond to Eskimo first who shares the same belief with me.

You said first that you believe in the authenticity of the Hadiths referred to above but only feel that there is nowhere in those ahadith where the MARITAL STATUS of the culprits where asked. To this I will say I don’t subscribe to your kind of understanding. I am sure in the numerous ahadith, which dealt with the subject in dispute the maritat status of the culprit is always made clear. This, explicitly or implicitly. Please check it up again in The Book of Hudood,  Muwatta Imam Malik or Bukhari.  

On your second point, which suggested that, the Hadith of stoning was recorded sometime in the early period of the Hegira. Though you too say you are not sure but though I cannot be precise,  the general understanding in the science of Usul is the ahadith remained relevant even after the demise of the Holy Prophet because there are many instances where they were discussed by his close companions. Upon all there are instances where the record says they have practiced it. I think this also clarified the issue of Aisha and Surat Al-Nur.

Third , if some body should accuse any body  of adultery he brings four witnesses or  confession on the part of the perpetrator to it.  Pregnancy in some school of thoughts of law in Islam, particularly Maliki is considered to be enough evidence for adultery but in the other schools it is not so. And that was the central core of my discourse with Sanusi Lamido. If really we are restricting our worldview to Maliki law then we have no alternative than doing it that way. This is the argument. It is academic. Especially when it is merged with the proof of confession.

You said the adulterer is to be flogged? This is why I think you doubt the authenticity of the Ahadith we’ve quoted above.

Then you said:

    "But I dont know may be we are still expected to fluck out our eyes when they push us to commit sin as said by Jesus since our religion is the continuation of his teaching with no abrogation and changes in Law for a bettter society."

I think I was very explicit in the beginning that the LAWS of the TORAH as affirmed in the Qur’an should remain valid and that is only if no any alternative is given thereafter. This is the stand of the scholars of Islamic Jurisprudence.

On Bashir’s argument, which gives, a death blow to faith by saying: "faith is a funny thing cos anybody can claim it."

I think there is no best answer than to tell Bashir that we are all human beings.  And all of us are a combination of faith and reason, emotions and intellect, spirit and flesh. And what is most unfortunate is one cannot in any way know exactly where emotions change to  intellect or viceversa nor can one tell exactly the point where faith changes to reason or where the spirit lives in the flesh.

This reminds me of a story of a learned person who claims all his actions to be the product of reason but when he was asked as to whether his children are really his he answered in the affirmation. But when asked further as to why he believes so he said it was his wife who gave birth to them. Well I don’t know what answer Bashir will give if he was in the same position. But it is obvious that the professor believes his children to be his only on account of faith. He has not established on account of reason that his children are truly his. For if he has to do that he would then be consulting physician to confirm in every occasion his wife gives birth. As a result he settled for faith to conclude that his children are his.

Such are human beings. This is why seeing ourselves as the way we are we settled for Revelation, Revelation and Reason. Certainly not reason alone.  

so mr jack,

thanks to you and eskiom, you hae given me the weapon with which i shall bring u down,

jack, you talked of tourism and western investment bla bla bla, Eskimo you said Saudi had a very sound economy, plus a good zakkat system,

both of you have made the point that you see money as the alpha and omega of a mans life,

EXCELENT!

now the kill comes,

you see, once the Prophet of Islam, Mohammed (S.A.W) was very worried with what would befall his Ummah (followers) in case they start sinning too much, all other Ummahs had some sort of punishment upon them for sinning,

So the Prophet one day, cried and prayed for His Ummah, He prayed to God that his Ummah doesnt have to see the Punishment that other Ummah's did, and God Promised that to our Nobel Prophet that His Ummah would not face the kind of punishment others have,

The Prophet then Asked YA ALLAH, what punishment will my Ummah face? Allah then said "Money, WE SHALL GIVE THEM MONEY". Having abundance of money during the days of the Prophet and His Sahaba's(companions) was seen as threat to the very imaan, Abubakar (R.T.A) was amongst the richest of Mecca, He voluntarily gave up all his assets for the sake of Islam,

as for jack, since our shariah states cannot grow..... because of the shariah, which means no "tourism" can you please tell me why your lovely california (i personally love the landscape there) is facing a deficit of $30billion? how comes?  WHY!

as for eskimo, so what if pakistan is not practising the stonning part of the shariah? does that mean that they have shown us that it isnt right? they themselves are a confused nation, they continue to fight with india on religeous and kashmir disputes while the qadiyani's (the ones we know as ahmadiya in kano) continue to reside within pakistan boundries plus they have thier own Mecca (the qadiyani's) in pakistan,

then we have lionger, you have already on several other occasions shown your loyalty to the ku-klux-klan so, i dont see anything surprising that you support jack and dave,
just a piece of advice, the whiteman is known to drown his dog after he's too old and cant work anymore.

kuma, not surprisingly, since you knew ummita would surely show her vast knowledge here, you bravely invited her and the other girls down here, but dont forget, we have smart girls too that have "brains" for instance kilishi.

hey, is it true that them gonna kill a guy for killing an abortion doctor? jack is that true?  i donno, cnn can be so stupid, they are lying, jack told me in the US people dont get killed for killing, wow bushman traits in the white america!

adious

Shariah will stay,

And insha'Allah we shall be the GUARDS!

Brother Waziri,
I read the places you pointed out and I see many Hadiths there where MARITAL STATUS was asked. Thanks for the correction. May Allah guide us.

Allah has promised to protect his Holy Book from corruption-the context...the Arabic context is divine and therefore protected but the interpretations (tafsir, exegesis) is HUMAN... What of hadith? does it have such protection? ALL OF IT IS HUMAN written well after the Prophet and despite his warnings that it should nt be written down.
With all this we believe in hadith cos they were mention as complement (NOT SUPPLEMENT) of quran in the Quran itself. But then are we to trust any Hadith that is against the clear injuction of the holy book. Let me say Quran is in plain Arabic (it bosted of that) why then write volumes explaining the meaning.
The compilers of hadith although very sincere and devoted to Allah, were still human capable of errors. so taking any Hadith to study it under the science of hadith will not prove or disprove its authenticity. The only Litmus test is to use Quran as done recently by Saudi scholar Sheik Albany (RIP).

DO YOU KNOW THAT NO PENALTY IS MENTION OUTSIDE QURAN EXCEPT IN THE CASE OF ADULTERY (STONNING TO DEATH)

Why should only this be found in Hadith.

Concernng PREGNANCY you talk of MALIKI school, although I know...may I still ask what is MALIKI school of THOUGH? Why must we follow interpretations not the essence. Maliki school of though is an interpretation of Islam to suit the then people of Medina. Read MUWATTA MALIK well you will references like "..I dont know but I see people of Medina doing such and such.." All other madhahibs are like that, why dont we have our own suitable to our time or simply get back to essence and HOLD FAST UNTO THE ROPE OF GOD ALTOGETHER AND DO NOT DIVIDE YOURSELVES (into Sect, Madhhabs, Tarikas, sunnah or shia..)
atlest you said some school do not follow the said ruling. Then are following different sharia then? if they are also muslim then their Islam is BETTER.

al_Hamzah,
Is not money that we are talking of, unless you confuse money with economy. If you mean economy by saying MONEY then Allah (SAW) also want us to behave as such.
In the Pillars of Islam the ZAKKAH system is the third only to Shahada itself and sallat.
why should so many verses talk about zakkah (an economic plan device to muslim society by the grand designer Himself.) and helping the poor. any where Allah says 'strugge in the way of Allah (Jihad)" he mentions "with your WEALTH" first then "and yourselves (physical, preaching other means)"
MAKE CONDITION BETTER FOR US BEFORE YOU START AMPUTATING US! afterall Umar (RTA) suspended amputation during famine.

Jack
Wecome back.

Salam

the most celebrated western civilization was that of the greeks. specifically athens upto the time of pericles. the greeks had a notion of the state, of duty and respect for the law that we have no idea of. the greeks believed that the law was essentially good. laws exist to regulate society n protect rights that individuals cannot enforce effectively. that is the islamic view of sharia. not that it could be improved, no. it is understood to be perfect because it is based on divine writ. one problem b/w islam n other religions is that islam believes the ideal environment for attaining salvation is an islamic one. a condition where every person is consious of god. muslims believe that sharia is the best law for man. sharia is to men what a manual is to a car. since god made us, he shd know when we shd change our oil, what is the right tyre pressure n so on. the islamic focus on attaining a semblance of god's kingdom of earth thus comes into direct conflict with other religions' view of "pie in d sky." muslims believe that whoever accepts god's judgement will go to heaven. so if amina is killed she wd go to heaven. and since the world is such a sorrowful place maybe she shd be put out of her misery. god knows i dont think her life was great before this politics started. i wonder if its better now that she is a celebrity.

Quoteso if amina is killed she wd go to heaven. and since the world is such a sorrowful place maybe she shd be put out of her misery. god knows i dont think her life was great before this politics started. i wonder if its better now that she is a celebrity.

??? ??? ???Does that mean if she had been rich and living la vida loca then she'd deserve a second chance?

okay i have a lil comment cant yall just bring up good points and argue like adults without throwing direct and indirect insults at each other? i mean if this was how people debated do yall think their would be televised debates on TV. this is a very good topic but what good is it if everyone cant put their personal feelings aside and just prove a point intelectually. we live to agree and disagree but that doesnt mean we all cant be civil with one another, thats the essence of a good debate being civil and make good arguments and points,becuz no matter what the muslims say the christians will never understand our reason for the death penalty and no matter what the christians say our beliefs are our beliefs and its here to stay and thats for us muslims to deal with not any one else. so the bottom line is no matter how much we argue nothing is goin to change so we might as well learn to live with eachother and accept the fact that we're all different.
            one luv yall.
           

Hi again.

Our new friend Hauwa makes a good point about civility.  I doubt that the Prophet would make fun of his opponents, or engage in personal attacks when debating an issue.  I hope that I have been respectful, and if I haven't I apologize.  I do disagree, however, that discussion is useless.  I myself have gone through several opinions regarding the death penalty in my own country since I was young.  I was strongly opposed 20 years ago, but I have come to agree that there are some so hopeless and who have killed so viciously and without remorse, like McVeigh, or the man who they executed today in Florida (Paul Hill, if I remember correctly) who killed the doctor who performed abortions, that it is reasonable for the soceity to demand their deaths.  So I guess today you might say that I am in favor of the death penalty for those who kill several people, and who show no remorse for their acts.  We also have the death penalty for those who are hired to kill someone.  But generally we just send murders to prison, often for the rest of their life without possibility of parole.

And al Hamza, I don't know where you thought I said that we don't execute murders in the US.  We don't execute for lesser crimes, but the most vicious and hopeless of the murders are still executed here.  Europe has stopped executing people, and maybe our friend Dave Hill can shed some light on this.

This last example brings up a point made by Dave Hill in an earlier post.  He points out that the death penalty has not been shown to be a deterent to murder.  This is true.  Many studies have been done in my own country that have shown that there is no correlation between murders and the imposition of the death penalty.  I suppose the one exception might be the crime mentioned above - murder for hire.  But usually those who kill do so out of anger and without thought of the consequences if they are caught.

Ummita, what a fresh voice!  I am glad you joined our happy group!  Let's hear from more of the women who read these posts!  I think your point is a good one:  Why are they killing this poor girl, but are letting the louse who got her pregnant go free??  I think we both know the reason:  If the authorities ever started to kill the men for these acts, there would all of a sudden be pressure on the clerics and academics to find some reasons in your holy writings to let them both live.  The men in your country wouldn't stand for it!  In my country we say "It's a man's world," and that's true everywhere.  I hope that your country will try to treat men and women more fairly, and with justice.  The laws that say that a woman who gets raped had better have several witnesses, or else just shut her mouth about it, are unjust, no mater what anyone else says about it. :'(

It sound like Amin is saying that the Prophet would prefer his followers to lie than to confess to a sin.  Is this true??  I confess that I don't understand Islam the way that you do, but I can't believe that lying to avoid prosecution is the true Muslim way.  Is this any way to structure a healthy society?  Please tell me that I misunderstand you.

Waziri, you are erudite and apparently well versed in your subjects.  I commend you.  I do have a few questions about what you have said in your recent posts.  You accuse me of "mischief," but I do not understand this.  According to the Shariah laws, mischief has to do with the destruction of property (you kill animals, poison water supplies, damage buildings, etc.).  Please see http://www.zamfaraonline.com/sharia/chapter10.html which defines the term "mischief."  If you mean that I mean you harm, I assure you that that is not the case.  Are you so unsure of your convictions that you would want to prevent all argument or criticism?  That's what al Hamza sounds like.  "Please stop talking to us and leave us alone!  I'll never change, so just go away and let us stone our women as we please."  That won't work any more, al Hamza.  The world has changed, and you can't hide in your little corner of the world and do as you please.  

I don't believe that Muslims are as isolationist as you appear to be.  Waziri points proudly to the example of a conquering army exchanging prisoners for books.  This is more like the Muslims I know.  One of my colleagues is from Nigeria, a Muslim, and is thirsty for knowledge and new ideas.  He and his family will do well in this world, because he is intelligent and works hard, and is constantly learning.  He never says "Leave me alone and don't talk to me.  I already know all that I want to know."

I think that Waziri gets off the track, however, when he tries to blame the outside world for the problems of his country.  Science and Western ideas seem to be his enemies, but science built this internet, science is putting food on our tables, and science is keeping us living to 100, when we lived only to 70 or so when I was young.  Science is not our enemy, it is our tool to use for our benefit and for the benefit of our families.

I am really enjoying the posts of Eskimo, lionger, and Waziri.  They are all intelligent and I am learning much about Islam from them.  Are you all from the same school?  I really don't know much about how this web site came about.

I am disturbed by some of the sentiment regarding death.  Are you serious that death might be preferred to life?  There's an old country western song in the US that goes:  "Everyone wants to go to heaven, but no one wants to die."  To throw up your hands and say "Well, life is tough and maybe she would be better off dead" is pathetic.  Life is to be lived, and you should not give up no matter what.  I know that your Prophet would not support this sentiment.  At least I hope so.

Bye for now.  I agree with those who say "let's hear from more of the women!"  They must have intellegent contributions to this topic.  And let's hear from the lurkers, too.  Ta ta.  Jack

Quote
??? ??? ???Does that mean if she had been rich and living la vida loca then she'd deserve a second chance?

may be

Quoteno matter what the muslims say the christians will never understand our reason for the death penalty  ?

Hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii, Death penalty is not a muslims thing, every culture and every nation executes.

so execution for murder is not a new thing...even b4 Islam.

may be the "muslim ???" thing is to execute (a woman ???) for commiting a "SIN  ???:o"

Mr Jack Fulcher. Your approached this topic with all the arrogance inherent in the subconscious American psyche of we are the 'best of the best' which of course you are not. It is not any wonder that al Hamza was offensive; your attitude incites offence. I'm glad to see that you've changed your approach somewhat and are more friendly in tone and less haughty.  
I am a Muslim, I am a woman and I am against abolishing capital punishment. At the same time, I am against the stoning of Amina Lawal. As an Islamic Injuction I cannot say with certainty that I am against stoning in general. This is simply because I am not knowledgeable in shariah law, therefore I have to abide by what the more learned amongst our Ulamas say. But more specifically my acceptance of the punishment for stoning has to do with the hadiths on the subject matter, whereby the Prophet Salaam was known to have passed a sentence on one or two occasions.

Two to three months ago, I read an article titled 'The Evolving Nature of the Qur'an and its Implications for Interpreting Ahadith' on the Gamji website posted by Dr. Saleem Ahmed. It contained excerpts from his book 'Beyond Veil and Holy War'. He wrote the article in connection with the Amina Lawal case. He argued convincingly about the probability that the divine command on stoning (rajam) could have been abrogated by the revelation of the first two verses of Surah Nur:
'The man and woman guilty of adultery or fornication: flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of believers witness their punishment' (Qur'an, Surah Nur verse 2)
'Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry any but a woman similarly guilty or an unbeliever; nor let any but such a man or an unbeliever marry such a woman. To the believers such a thing is forbidden' (Qur'an, Surah Nur verse 3).
Dr. Ahmed then gave Ahadith examples of times when the Prophet passed sentences of lashings and sentences of rajam. The severity of the sentence depended on the marital status of the accused person. On most occasions the stoning sentence was passed on a married person while lashing was administered to an unmarried person.
He then compared the date of the revelation of surah Nur with the dates of some of the hadiths. According to the Qur'anic commentary of Sheikh Abdallah Yusuf Ali, the second and third verse of Surah Nur were probably revealed around the 8th year after the Hijra (630 C.E.) The Prophet Salaam died two years later in 10 AH (632 C.E.) Thus according to Dr.Ahmed, many of the incidents concerning the punishment for illicit sexual intercourse would have occured in the years (17 - 18 years of prophethood) preceding Surah Nur rather than in the four to the last two years of the Prophet Salaam's life (other verses of Surah Nur were first revealed circa 628 C.E. and the second and third verses were revealed two years later). Therefore the prescriptions for rajam do seem to predate at least the 2nd and the 3rd verses of Surah Nur, and these verses could abrogate the earlier injunction of stoning with the milder one for whipping. It makes perfect sense to me.  
Suffice it to say that there are other credible and legitimate points put forward by Dr. Ahmed to bring his message across that there is a need for Islamic Scholars to quote:
'discuss the issue (of stoning to death for committing adultery) dispassionately in the light of the Qur'an's evolutionary nature'  unquote.
After reading the article, i have become somewhat ambivalent about stoning. But more than that, I was against the sentence passed on both Amina and Safiya even before I came across Dr. Ahmed's article. The reason for this is that it is very difficult to convict a person of adultery. Mr. Fulcher got it wrong when he said that a woman has to bring four witnesses to testify on her behalf that she did not commit adultery. The fact of the matter is that the burden of proof lies with the ACCUSER not the ACCUSED. It is the accuser who has to furnish four witnesses who have to testify that they saw the GRAPHIC act of intercourse like - what is that term commonly used - a piston in a cylinder. The witnesses have to have about them one single and very difficult characteristic: they must be certified by the generality of the populace never to have lied in their entire lives. Failing this, their testimony in court is null and void and cannot  be accepted. If the accuser fails to secure four such people to testify on his behalf then he is punished with 80 lashes for defamation of character.
In the case where it is between a husband and wife one accusing the other of adultery, a swearing of oath takes place whereby the accuser swears five times on the Holy Qur'an that the accused commited adultery and the accused also swears five times that he/she did not commit adultery. In this case no judgment is passed on either party save to dissolve the marriage. In a situation where a child is concerned or a pregnancy, it becomes the sole responsibility of the mother since it has been publicly disowned by the husband.
Both Amina and Safiya are divorcees I believe (unfortunately I have not been following their eventful lives). I am also embarrassed to admit that I have no idea under which circumstance each came to be accused of adultery, but I understand that one of them was through a budding pregnancy with no husband to back it up. This makes a somewhat difficult situation to analyse and like I said earlier I know next to nothing about Shariah law. However, I did read an article by Sanusi Lamido Sanusi who wrote about the differing stands of jurists on the matter in the different Mazhabs and I read it here on Kano Online. The article was copied by the administrator and posted on this website but I have no idea where it is, at the present moment. (Admin, fish it out for another preview pls). In some of the rulings a pregnant divorced woman is given the benefit of the doubt even if the pregnancy occurs four years into her divorced state. This occurs simply in order to safeguard a life - the life of the accused woman. The woman's denial of adultery is also accepted inspite of the evidence of pregnancy.
Anybody interested in the matter or anything on islamic jurisprudence I should recommend he gets in touch with Sanusi L. Sanusi via the Gamji website. One can easily get his email from there.
I am firmly in favour of capital punishment as prescribed by Islam. If a person wilfully kills another person, his punishment should be that he forfeits his life also. It is not 'vengeful' or 'wasteful' to execute a killer. It safeguards society from the possibility of his killing again, which is what happens times without number when prisoners are released on parole in the West. And who says it does not assuage the grief of the berieved? Well believe me it does. The very act of convicting a killer and incarcerating him acts as a cartharsis on some victims. How much more if one knows that the criminal has got his 'comeuppance?'
Islamic criminal or penal code may be deemed to be harsh by many non muslims. But at the heart of it, punishment in islam is there as a deterrent; that is why it is advocated that it should be carried out in public. The sight of a public chastisement not only humbles the chastised, it impacts upon the public in such a way that no one wants to be so humiliated and so s/he hopefully avoids committing a crime.

Hmn,this topic i can see is becoming ever more interesting......
I'm not used to making lengthy comments.i thought i should,anyway,put up some points here:
The first one goes to al hamzah;in arguments or debates,never loose your temper.The first sign of defeat in debates is when one party starts throwing abuses or calling names.....so please al hamzah coolo temper...and be an honourable gentleman(i know you are).

Secondly;it seems the issue of abolishing the death penalty(in Nigeria) is no longer the topic for discussion .Sharia has taken over.

Anyway,i dont think the nigeria prison service could even handle the number of additional inmates it would recieve if the death penalty is abolished....right now the nigerian prisons are in a deplorable state..it will cost the government a lot.......
But even if the nigerian prisons are in a better condition i dont think the death penalty should be abolished.Why ?because it wouldnt be fair judgement if someone  takes the life of a fellow human being only to be punished with a life sentence(maximum).And i bet you, in nigeria, those given the life sentence will surely someday find their way out.

The issue of abolishing the death sentence should be left for the states to decide.Any state that wants to abolish the death penalty should do so.

I'll comment on the sharia issue later(maybe)
I guess i'm better at the chit chat section...peace

Hi all
This topic is being seriously debated now and I am very glad about that. I note my last post seems to have got lost or deleted. No problem. The debate widens and I welcome the ladies to it. Neither myself nor Jack Fulcher are attacking Islam or sharia. What we are questioning is the interpretation put on some of it by some people. Laws, religious and moral as well as civil, are only as just and correct as those who interpret them are wise and human beings are not infallible.

I seem also to have lost my membership status - probably because I keep forgetting to log in. This is what happens when you get old!

What a great post by "Guest!"  An intelligent woman speaks out!  She and Ummita have both contributed well to this discussion.

I appologize, Ms. Guest, for my arrogance and brashness when I first started to post on this wonderful board.  I was very angry, as you probably could tell, having read about this poor woman and her peril.  To kill someone for having sex outside of marriage, in the 21st century, just "blows my mind."  I found an article written by a teacher at a local Kano school, but couldn't find any way to send him an angry rebuttal, but instead found this board (put together by the students??).  I realize that I just blustered my way in here, and I'm sorry for that, as most have been reasoned and polite even though most (but not all) disagree with me.  

You make a good point about the arrogance of Westerners, but in our defense I think that we truly believe that we've discovered the way to solve the problems that have plagued mankind for centuries.  For the most part we are well fed, live in comfortable houses, have good health and live long lives, and have freedom to choose careers, family, hobbies, long vacations, travel, etc.  In the 1800s we had large families because we needed our children to work on the farm, and it was not uncommon for two or three of your children to die from health problems.  That is rare today, so our families are much smaller.  We don't have to work as long as we used to, our autos give us mobility they never dreamed of in the 1800s, computers and telecommunications have allowed us to solve problems, collect and disperse information, and entertain us in a way the world has never known.  And one more thing:  We're a happy people.  Don't let anyone tell you that we're not happy.  In the words of dfynest, we’re living la vida loca (is he really Rickey Martin??)  We argue and fight among ourselves, but this is just part of the system we have.  Free speech is an experiment we’ve been trying for a couple of hundred years, and we like the results for the most part.  Sometimes we’re insulting, we say bad things about Bush and the knuckleheads who work around him, and we question long held assumptions, but this is the way things change.  It is the scientific method, and it works to get people to think about problems, approach them from a fresh perspective, and discover answers they would never had found if they had stuck with traditional ways.  How many things do you take for granted in your own lives that were developed by our methods?  Certainly this internet that allows us to talk to each other from around the world is a product of our systems.  We produce food and products for the world, yet do not have the oil resources of a Saudi Arabia or the mineral resources of an Africa.  

Al Hamza will say that this is materialism, and he is right to a certain extent, but we are also solving problems that we all want solved, problems of disease, discomfort and want.  Is this not what the Prophet was trying to do when he told his followers how to live?  Much of the Qu’ran contains practical ideas concerning health, education, families, and social organization.  Same with the Christian bible.  And the Talmud.  We think that we know how to solve many of these problems, and are proud of what we’ve accomplished in the 20th century.  In this century we expect to extend life beyond 120 years, to conquer many of the diseases that kill us now, like cancer and heart disease, to have clean water available to every person on the planet, to give all college level educations, and to be able to travel half way around the world in an hour or two.  
Don’t you want this for your children?  Don’t you want to participate in the progress of the world?  Or do you want to be just left alone so that you can kill your people for having sex?  I guarantee you, folks, the world will continue to watch this sort of atavistic behavior for only so long, and then it will be stopped if you don’t stop it first.  Already this very extreme interpretation of the Shariah is under attack, not only from the West but also from other Muslims.  The posts on this board have made it clear that there is disagreement regarding whether this punishment is something actually sanctioned in the Qu’ran.  And as I’ve said before, if your leaders ever start to kill men for the same activities, the clerics will start to find reasons to interpret the Qu’ran and the hadiths as saying that death should not be the punishment.  The men run the world, and especially your world, so they won’t put up with this if they are the ones being stoned.

And speaking of stoning, did you take a look at that tape smuggled out of Iran I gave the link for a couple of posts ago?  I had a hard time sleeping after seeing it.  And please don’t say something like “that proves that stoning works – you’ll think twice before breaking the law, won’t you?”  The death penalty is not a deterrent, as I mentioned before.  We’ve never been able to show a statistical correlation between the death penalty and murder.  People who kill do not think about punishment at the time, they’re too angry and they always think they’ll get away with it.  Quite frankly, and I know I’ll insult some here, stoning is barbaric.  I support the death penalty for some extreme murders, as I’ve said here before, but kill them with drugs.  Burying someone in the dirt while having a bunch of kids throw rocks at their head (look at the tape – they look just like a bunch of little boys out having fun) is unnecessary and debases your culture.  The Christian bible mentions stoning, but the West moved beyond that centuries ago.  You don’t need it, and it hurts you to use it.

I’d like to answer al Hamza’s comment regarding the deficit for the California state government.  Why do we have a $30 billion deficit?  Remember, this is only the deficit for the government, not the economy.  The California economy is the eighth largest in the world.  We’re doing great, thank you.8)   The reason for the deficit is the same reason we had a $100 billion surplus in 1999.  The tax system is based mainly on the income tax, which has progressive rates.  That is, as your income increases, you pay a higher percentage of it to the income tax.  So when the economy grows by 5%, tax revenues to the government will grow by maybe 10%.  Similarly when the economy declines, as it has in the last two years, tax revenues decline by a greater percentage.  When the economy recovers, and it looks like it might be doing it slowly now, the deficit will disappear.  

Once again, I apologize to Ms. Guest, who writes beautifully and with precision.  One objection that I have, however, is that I was talking about rape, not adultery, when I mentioned the four witnesses.  My understanding, and please correct me if I’m wrong, is that a woman needs four witnesses if she wants to report that she has been raped.  If not, she is the one punished.  If my understanding is correct, or even close, it sounds like the woman who has been raped is unlikely to get justice.  Why do you want to treat your sisters or daughters in this way?  Do you men just want to run things, have your fun with them, and suppress them forever? :'(  If you love them, you will make it easier for them to get justice and participate as equal partners in your homes, your work, and your social lives.

Where’s Dave?  I sure seem to write a lot – too much coffee.  Sorry for rambling.  Peace, Jack

Oops!  Looks like Dave snuck in there while I was typing.  Hi, Laddie.

Hey, what's the problem with using apostrophes?  I keep getting some garbled stuff, and it's always the same.  Admin folks, can you fix this or suggest something to us?  Thx

Al hamza, I said to write respectively instead of insulting others. I said to answer questions directly instead of sarcastic quips. Infact i begged u, still u no gree. haba u know u can't prove a word of your response to me. Anyways I digress. What I want to say (and infact, did say) is that we have all drastically narrowed the discussion, or is Sharia is the only reason for which the death penalty exists in Nigeria? I understand its significance to the Muslim, but so far I've heard of only one death sentence passed thru the Sharia, and I think the crime was murder. And the Nigerian govt will not allow any death sentence for adultery to be carried out (fortunately or not). Finally, like I said b4 and I believe someone else also mentioned, that the decision (if at all important, and frankly it is not) should be made by the states.

We are making progress I can see.

Jack Fulcher,

I really can become invalid when I see myself being misrepresented or misquoted or even quoted out of context, cos I am not in a better position to decipher the mind of the writer to see whether his intentions are pure or drossy. All I can see is my personal reputation being put to stake.  And as such I will just try to leave, seeing no just cause to which I should join issue with the person.  But now that we are coming to terms I think we can conveniently have a chat. It sure a great thing that we are discussing.

When you say we desire isolation, I say it is not so, to some degree I can even go ahead and put the claim that we have a broader worldview than the Americans. Because the amount of information we have today about Europe, America and other countries in the world is no closer to the amount of information you ppl have about us.  I am writing this from Nigeria, Kaduna(my state) in a Local Government called Zaria. I am a native of Zaria but yet every day I wake up I listen to news on current events from CNN, Sky News and BCC WORLD. VOA and BBC Hausa and English service (Hausa is my native language and BBC and Voa have programmes in the language).

Add to this also are numerous local American Channels, Music and Movies, which feed me on how life is in USA, and now that there are stuffs like Internet and other communications gadgets. You see Mr Jack we are not in isolation. I think from the way u speak, u don't have enough information about us the way we have about u.

True to God, nobody will start stoning you here when you commit adultery. Everybody understands that it is only to the Muslims that the law is being applied since the issue is that of faith. Nobody also is stoning women and allowing men to go scot-free. The laws of our religions in regard to adultery doesn't discriminate on gender but at the level of practice women are seemed to be more vulnerable to it because of the basic physiological differences that exist between men and women. If you really read my article you would see that the argument was the woman confessed to it and the man denied it. And in the philosophy of Islam, we say 'take ppl on their words when they speak until they prove to you they are not trustworthy' not like in the West where in court of laws the philosophy is  'Do not believe ppl until they prove to you that they are trust worthy'. We also share one thing in philosophy with the West when it comes to court we say 'ignorance is not an excuse'.

The case of Amina is one of an interesting episode in the history of court in Nigeria.  She is poor and at the same time ignorant of the Law. Some man impregnated her and she being a divorced, her punishment supposes to be that of an adulterer, had it been she was never married before it will be some 100 lashes only. She demanded that he should fend for her newborn baby. The man refused. Some clerics tried to settled them because in the matters of Capital Punishment in Islam the interest is always to see the way we can save the life not the way we can take it. But the woman denied them listening ear thinking that they wanted to cheat her. She took  to police and reported everything. The police referred her to court of law where she went and confessed again. The man was called; he denied it, the judge tried to save her by suggesting that may be she was forced into it as suggested in the code of the laws since our desire is to save the life and protect the genealogy, but she affirmed saying that it happened.

The judge passed the right verdict. Here, I will stop to mention that one of the objectives of Law in Islam is the protection of genealogy and here the genealogy is being violated. This genealogy is very important to us because we believe that every individual that can cheat on f his own spouse and commit adultery is a nuisance to the society. He is not trustworthy, he is a representation of mischief as u see the definition of mischief u drew my attention to__He is not fit to live.  

 Well Jack why did the Americans tried impeaching Clinton when they learnt about his affairs with Lewinsky? I guess the argument is if he cannot be faithful to his wife he certainly cannot be faithful to his country and if he cannot be faithful to his country he better be going. We say then in other words, he is not responsible to his family and of course not responsible to his country. In our philosophy these kind of ppl are a danger to society, they spread mischief, and they are not fit to live. They cannot live of to their obligations and duties like Clinton and therefore must go. This is it.

Back to the issue of Amina, Immediately after the verdict of the court came, diverse opinions from those who know the essence of the law, those who are not fully acquainted with the philosophy of the law and the Media houses of the West started spreading propaganda that we are stoning women around here. Now you believe them, and I tell you even a 200-year-old person if there is such person alive down here cannot tell you a case of stoning he/she witnessed.

Yes, there are some among us who put up the argument that since we are restoring back these aspects of the law into the code after some 60 years of their abrogation from the code by the British Colonial Masters then we should postpone the aspects dealing with Amputation, Adultery, Alcohol, etc. these we keep out until when the economy improves a little to the extent where by when anybody steels everybody will wonder why that person steels in the face of abundance. It is then and only then we would have justification to Amputate his hand believing him to be a psycho, an invalid a nuisance who is spreading mischief and therefore is not fit to move around with his two hands. This group actually makes sense because this is the practice during the time of the Prophet of Islam and to some degree I belong to them.

But there is the other group also which suggests that we can go ahead and continue   implementing them since our ppl are not yet poorer than the ppl of the Prophet’s time. They argue that it is in human beings; they cannot in anyway be fully satisfied. They argue that that ideal is never and has never been achieved in history.

You see the issue is for the Muslims to resolve not for the West to come with its "Almighty" media house and portray us as barbaric ppl who discriminate against women by killing them when they commit adultery. They speak about women saying that they have the best way of making them to feel respected and yet it is only in the Muslim countries you have women leading as first citizens. You have Indonesia and in the recent past Pakistan. Where is the gender sensitivity they are so much ranting about in the Muslim countries?

Oh! This post is getting to long and there are many issues you raised which I want to address but anyway let me continue.
Iran   practices the law. And I told you earlier that we don't kill until when it is necessary. As a result we don't to it happily and that is why we see no reason to get it on tape and publicise it to the seeing and the hearing of everybody that we kill human beings. I doubt much if the USA government does that. They only announce that they have done it but the details and the screams of the victim are never let out.

Mr. Jack, It is not that we don't like science. NO.  And it is not the liberal democracy as being practiced in the West that produces scientific and technological advancements. No. Science and Technology is a skill, it flourishes everywhere. If you check your reference in history you will see that there were times when Muslims led the world of science. You will see that there were times when Chinese led the world of science… Jack, the proof is overwhelming and liberal democracy should not be taking credit for what it does not produce. When we say we don't want Western Ideologies we are not saying we don't want Science and Technology. And when we say they should leave us alone with our ideologies we say that because they don't take time to study them they only use their indices to gauge us.

Yes, we blame the West for some of our problems because the West has never seen reason to solve our real problems. It only comes into our affairs when it has something at stake. Many a times it sponsors dictators who never care for us to be our leaders just for the simple reason that they do its (West) bid. The reasons are many that I cannot relate all here. But let me quote from the Nobel Prize Winner:

"Save the enslaved in the African south! Save the famished in Africa! Save the Palestinians from the bullets and the torture! Nay, save the Israelis from profaning their great spiritual heritage! Save the ones in debt from the rigid laws of economy! Draw their attention to the fact that their responsibility to Mankind should precede their commitment to the laws of a science that Time has perhaps overtaken."

So Mr Jack this is our worldview. I wish I can be more explicit. But time is against me. and I am typing on the system. For Eskimo pls I will respond to your arguments when next I come up you can see this post is too long. For the mischief thing, I did not mean it in its technical term in Shari'a but was only using INglish certaily not EXglish(Laughter)

The a_H I kno is a nyc person...I am sure he was just a lil unhappy...thinking that Jack and Dave were attacking muslims way of life...but now I am sure he realised his mistakes...u can see that in his recent posts.

Ms Guest, welcome on board from me in particular...atleast in you I see somebody who shares my beliefs...what you read from that man...is what I have been wagging my tail about...feel relaxed in your faith..we have backing from the Holy Quran...that stoning was...but no more!

What remains?...trying to make people understand our view...in the light of our religion...be steadfast for with time...justice (the true sharia) will be uphold.

I found an interview in Daily Trust of Wed 3rd Sept 03 of one Ali Asghar from Indian Inst...He was also yakking about the same issue...what I like most is his saying..."The words of Quran are DIVINE, but the interpretation is HUMAN"

Islam is simple and easy to practice...a liberation force...but We muslim are not LIBERALS...we are RIGID...so UNLIKE OUR RELIGION...SO UNLIKE OUR HOLY PROPHET (SAW)...who had never attacked Meccan innocent citezens (with a hijack plane ;D) in order to subdue Abusufyan (the then leader of Mecca) and Idolatory (Meccan interest).

Uncle Dave, try and have some rest...u aint growing any younger :D ;D :D ;D

So K-online has reformed one American...from "americanism". Jack is now one of us who see something being done in a wrong way from his human perspective...not american perspective. :D ;D :D ;D

Peace must Prevail.

  " FLORIDA  EXECUTES CLERGYMAN KILLER"

So death penalty is stiil in practice?????????? ??? ???

Yes, Kalishi, we have death penalty in US, and I think I have discussed this elsewhere in this topic.  We kill those who have murdered and have done so in such a horrible way, and without much remorse, that some jury decides that they are beyond saving.  McVeigh is another who we have killed.  This killer in Florida said that he was proud that he killed, and would kill another doctor if he were allowed to do so.  We do not kill very many (compared with countries such as China or Iran), but we do it.  We kill with drugs or lethal gas, usually, although some states still hang or, in Utah, they sometimes use firing squad, although they are getting rid of that method this year.  No stoning, however.  We never had that method here.

I think I support the death penalty for these extreme cases, although "life in prison without possibility of parole" could be another option if we're worried about whether this person might kill again.  There's a big debate here regarding whether the justice system works well enough to be sure that the convicted person is actually the guilty party.  That is, DNA testing has shown that many awaiting execution did not actually commit the crime.  They were convicted in 1990, for example, but the science of DNA testing wasn't very good then, so it couldn't be used.  But if the crime was rape and then murder, for instance, the bodily fluids found at the scene were stored and, in 2003, tested using DNA technology, and it has sometimes been found that those fluids did not come from the man convicted of the crime.  This is another miracle of science, as far as I'm concerned.  If he had been executed in 1990, we would have killed an innocent man.

I want to respond to Waziri's excellent and erudite post (not to mention Eskimo's), but need to get back to work (it's 1 PM here).  I will check in later.

Pleasant dreams.  Jack

Assalamu alaikum,
I have read the various contributions on this topic and appreaciate all the educative write ups. It is clear that people like Mr. Jark are just refusing to accept reasons and sort of use this oppurtunity to redicule Islamic injunctions. I wonder why people (like Jack) should argue about issues they lack knowledge about and does not seek to understand.

I really pity such people that preponderate their lousy common sense over and above the Almighty. I therefore pray for them Allah's (SWT) guidance. Apparently, such persons have been doomed, and are therefore deaf, dumb and dumped in the ocean of confussion. No true believer will be decieved by any delirious claims againts Islamic injunctions. The myopic judgement of man visa-vis the western propaganda due the ramification of its technological progress seems to only plunge such people into cesspool of moral and spiritual bankruptcy.

People like Mr. Jack should allow the beleivers to follow their religious injunctions. We have the right to choose Islam as our religion and practice it, Period!

Let us again seek for reasons from the Holy Qur;an and the Holy Bible to again see why dealth penalty is could never be obsolete.

Islamic (Shariah) Injunction on Aduletry/Fornication is as follows: The Holy Qur'an says: “The woman and the man (Bachelors/Spinsters) guilty of Adultery or fornication, flog each of them with a hundred stripes:” HQ S. XX V 2.

Similarly, the holy Prophet (SAW) instructed that:'For man and woman who have been married are to be stoned to death, for committing adultery. – AL-MUWATTA 41.1.1

The following is another Hadith on the ruling on fornication: The married person is to be stoned to death when the guilt is established by either four witnesses or through voluntary self-confession. It was extracted from a hadith in Al-Muwatta Malik 12 that, Malik [RL] related from bn Shihab [RL] from Ubaydullah ibn Abdullah ibn Utba ibn Masud [RL] that Abu Huraira (RA) and Zayd ibn Khalid al-Juhani (RA) informed him that two men brought a dispute to the Messenger of Allah (SAW), may Allah bless him and grant him peace. One of them said, "Messenger of Allah! Judge between us by the Book of Allah!" The other said, and he was the wiser of the two, "Yes, Messenger of Allah. Judge between us by the Book of Allah and give me permission to speak." He said, "Speak." He said, "My son was hired by this person and he committed fornication with his wife. He told me that my son deserved stoning, and I ransomed him for one hundred sheep and a slave-girl. Then I asked the people of knowledge and they told me that my son deserved to be flogged with one hundred lashes and exiled for a year, and they informed me that the woman deserved to be stoned." The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "By Him in whose Hand my soul is, I will judge between you by the Book of Allah. As for your sheep and slave girl, they should be returned to you. Your son should have one hundred lashes and be exiled for a year." He ordered Unays al-Aslami

The Holy Bible has this to say on Fornication/Adultery: The Bible says: "If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife of his neighbour-both the adulterer and the adulteress Must be put to death “ Levictus 20:10

On Murder the Shariah says:: We ordained therein for them: “ life for life, eye for eye, Nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, wounds for wounds, Equal for equal…” HQ S 4. 45  

Similarly, the Bible says: “ Soul will be for soul, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, branding for branding, wound for wound, blow for blow.” Ex. 10: 24—25

If non-Muslims do not find it imperative to follow the injunctions in their holy books, we the Muslims do. Laqum dina qum waliyyadiyn.

EMTL

EMTL,

Your quotations on the Bible are very accurate, however, u have also exhibited a lack of understanding of the Christian faith by ultimately insinuating that Christians do not follow their Bible. If I were like some of us here I would ask u not to stick your mouth into matters u don't understand.  :P But then how would any of us learn? Inevitably the Bible would have been dragged into this argument, though Mr. Fulcher has never said he was a Christian; evidence of another generalization many of us make.

Anyways, I would like to point you to the a passage in John 8, when an adulterous woman was brought to Jesus. He did not stone her, but said those w/out sin should stone her. Even after they all backed out, He still did not condemn her, but said not to sin anymore. So if Christ did not comdemn her, then why should we? You see, Christians are called to have the nature of Christ. Of course this does not mean that adultery is no longer a sin; it still is, but instead of punishment, we show God's love, cuz as the Bible says, 'love covers a multitude of sins.' The point of Christianity is that God does not give us what we all deserve for our sins; instead He paid for it Himself thru Christ. I'll get back to the death penalty just so I don't divert the discussion too much. It is only the nature of Christ to frown at the death penalty, for the simple reason that if the covicted lives, there's still a chance that he can be saved! But I still recognise the authority of governments to use the death penalty as punishments for serious crimes, because things r different in thisrealm. Life inprisonment is a good option but do we have the facilities for that in Nigeria?

Linoger,
Thanks for your response. I agree that i may not posses the complete knowledge of the christianity and should not insist that the christians should follow the injunctions in their Bible, therefore, the christians too have no business to dabble into the Islamic rules such as in the case of adultery, murder, etc.

For instance, i was shocked to learn that the Episcopalian Church approved a gay to be a Bishop. I remember the Archishop, head of the world's 70 million Angalicans shared my views and had this to say: "Difficult days lie ahead of the Episcopal church of the United States to confirm Robinson as bishop of New hampshire."

Simialrly Bsihop Robert Duncan of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania stated that, "This body has denied the plain teaching of Scripture and moral consesus of the church throughout the ages. This body has divifded itself from millions of anglicans throughout the world."

With the above developments one can understand the predicaments of the comtemporary Christians.

To very Muslim his/her faith is only complete when they totally accept the injunctions in the Holy Qur'an and the traditions of trhe Holy Prophet (SAW). Moreover the Holy Qur'an has warned us that the Christian and the Jews will be un-relenting, restless and uncompromising to the Muslims until they (the Muslims) accept their (Christian and Jews) faith.


EMTL

I think it is important to separate the debate about the death penalty into different categories. It is possble to argue that the state has to have the authority to use capital punishment in cases of behaviour which puts the state or its citizens at serious risk (treason, rebellion,terrorism etc.) or in cases of horrible murder etc.
This is very different from some weak or tempted person committing adultery.

I am firmly with Lionger on this one. " Let the one among you without sin throw the first stone."

We Muslims belief in both the Holy Bible (origional version) and the Holy Qur'an as being revealed books from Allah (SWT). But the injunctions in the Holy Qur'an are binding to Muslims not the Bilble.

EMTL

i was away on a trip,

it was a beautiful jill station, 12c maximum temprature, alhamdulillah, no american/western products on display (in the shops) except coke and pepsi, but the locals had something muslim for me to drink a muslim cola, tasted so much better than pepsi and coke, everywhere i went, wherever i spent, i didnt see any kobo going to the westerners hands, so he could pay taxes as such give money to the western government to kill my muslim brothers somewhere else after iraq and afghanistan,
             i was also pleased to see that jacks bragging about investment was after all useless, because  i didnt see anything lacking, i was a tourist in a muslim area, enriching my own muslim brothers, and i was in complete comfort,
          so finally am back, (though i have cough and a cold) seems like sanyi is not good for us kanawas, anyways back to the topic,
            i am happy the way people have addressed me in the last few posts, but i must say, i do agree that i am an extrimist (western ideology) so jack should be happy that i have accepted the fact that i can get a visa to guantanamo jail (oh i am above 18) so jack should not feel guilty sending me to those tiny cages that hold our lions there, our 14-16 year olds have found a new home in those torture cells and are bieng treated ruthlessly, but to jack they are not as important as Amina Lawal, a woman that is to tried at least by a law, but to jack that law isnt important, international law is more impotant, then why wont he talk about the geneva convention ? about amnesty? why wouldnt dave tell his american friend here that what they are doing in guantanamo base is wrong? i am confused, i have a 7 by 6 inch head, maybe the brain in it isnt enough to understand,

           our mujahideen brothers that were put into containers were treated without piety, no law was granted, they were put into containers and to make windows, american forces shot the containers, thereby killing my brothers inside, my brothers had to make a three day journey in those containers, for three days they had to smell the bodies and blood of my brothers matyred ruthlessly, many of my brothers arrived at the jail dead, still the jails werent enough to house them, and some were then executed, simply because thier captives didnt have enough rooms to enclose my lions! the method of torture was to cut off toes and fingers, then pour acid on thier heads, but u can all see, they were terrorists, they had to die, my brothers had to die! but no ordinarry death!
       Jack, that shariah you so much hate and abuse, it doesnt allow us to act like this with our POWs, infact it says that we make use of them e.g learn from them about things we dont know and set them free! but oh no, amina is more important for you.
          lemme tell you of a girl i know, i met her in an orphanage, she was probably a year or two elder than me, she was a half-cast (her looks told) she had lovely eyes and a beautiful skin, long hair and a smile that would humble a whole army set out to kill, but guess what? she didnt know who her parents were, (i came to know that cos my mom is very inquisitive though a helpful personality alhamdulillah), she was adopted by a family and flown to the uk, there she was treated like a slave, she could bear it an ran back to her orphanage, that orphanage recieves 4 babies on average daily(i dont know the present state since i havent witnessed sharaih yet), do you think that girl i met would be in a condition she is today if there was shariah? the probability is just maybe 001%.
                     oops am having a fever, i guess its the cold still disturbing, i will be back soon insha'Allah to continue
yours
Al Hamza

Hi folks!  Hope you had a pleasant weekend.  Work is getting really busy, so I have been up to my ears in stuff.

I owe Waziri a response to his fine post.  I agree completely with your excellent point, sir, when you point out that Americans know little about the outside world.  This is sadly true, and you no doubt know much more about us than we do about you.  Before this issue about poor Amina Lawal, all I knew about Nigeria was that it is beautiful (which I have heard from friends who have visited), it has a high population, and that it has large reserves of oil.  I even had to talk with my colleague (one of our auditors and finance specialists) who is from a small town north of Lagos to get an idea of where Kano is and even how to pronounce the name.  America is a large country and, until about 1950, only the rich could afford to travel to Europe or Africa, so most of us did not think much about the worlds across the oceans.  Even after 1950, when people were starting to travel more, most of the travel from here was to Europe, not Africa or Asia.  I suppose the internet and, sadly, the attacks of September 11, 2001, will change this self-imposed isolation and disinterest regarding the rest of the world, and more and more Americans will find the outside world worth exploring.  None of us can expect to live in isolation any more.

You say that you are not opposed to science and technology, that you have used the advances yourselves.  I believe this is true, as we can all see by this excellent website.  However, I was not talking about just consuming the products of the West, using our computers, our medicine, and our machines, but participating in the discovery and development of these new technologies.  Many of our top scientists and entrepreneurs are from other countries, but would it not be better if you grew your own industries and worked WITH us in the progress of humankind?  Nigeria is in a great position to do this.  You get billions of dollars in what is essentially free money every year because of the oil and other minerals on your lands.  Not all countries are as lucky as you.  If you combine your great resources with hard work and study, you can become the envy of countries everywhere.  Why have the Japanese been able to grow such a massive economy when they have so little in natural resources?  The answer is that they educate their children and work “like ants,” as the French have said.  Their children work as hard as their parents at their studies, and parents insist that their children receive the most education they can.  The Asians in California are wealthy because they have a strong work ethic.  The Jews on our east coast also have become rich through study and working long hours.  There is no secret formula, just education and work.

Is this true in your own country?  I read another thread of posts on this website that suggests that the northern part of Nigeria is lagging the rest of the country in the participation in college education (if I read the analysis correctly).  This is not encouraging, but it is also not hopeless.  I would hope that you insist that your children receive a good education, and that you work with your children to help them understand their studies.  Only a well educated workforce will be prepared to work with the rest of the world.  I would love to read about the great strides made by Nigerian scientists in the fields of health and agriculture.  Would it not be great if the cure for AIDS came from Nigeria instead of the US?

I agree that Muslims once led the world of science, and that the Chinese once were great powers in science.  So were the Egyptians, the Greeks, and the Romans.  But this was in the past – what have they done lately?  The advances in the last few centuries have been created by Western scientists, using Aristotelian logic combined with Western scientific method and liberal ideologies.  You cannot live off of the success of your ancestors.  They were great people, but are gone now.

Maybe we are crazy to work so hard, and maybe we should spend more time with our families, but if we want a comfortable life with a lot of choices we need to create wealth.   I am always shocked to read of the work habits of the Saudis.  I read arabnews.com, which is put out by their government, I think.  They are a very lucky people, with tremendous reserves of oil just sitting under their feet.  Instead of developing and refining this oil themselves, they hire thousands of workers from other countries to do it for them.  The government tries to get their own people to take jobs in the economy, but they have been generally unsuccessful because the young Saudis do not have good work habits.  They come to work but leave before noon.  This is sad because all of this free money they are getting is being wasted on consumption.  Where are the great Saudi products, autos, and machines?  The only industry they seem to have developed is finance, which produces nothing for the people.  There is much gold jewelry, but little in actual production of things that people need.

Mr. Waziri, I know you are sincere when you say that Shariah will be enforced only on Muslims.  I believe that this is your intention.  However, the experience of foreigners in Saudi Arabia gives me doubt.  I know that SA is not your country, so maybe I am being unfair, but I can only relate what I have been told by those I know who have lived there.  There are for instance the religious police, who act like vigilantes and will hit you with sticks if you are found holding hands or if a woman dares to go outdoors without a scarf or male escort.  Good grief.  One woman told me that if she drove her car in Jeddeh, sometimes one of these vigilantes would step out into the street and try to stop her, but she would have to keep on driving, because she would be dragged out of the car and beaten if she had stopped.  Apparently women are not allowed to drive there, and the vigilantes want the women to know this!  What did the Prophet say about driving around town?  It’s clear that, at least in SA, foreigners are not safe from the dictates of their leaders’ interpretation of Shariah.

Remember what Eskimo reminds us when he quotes Ali Asghar:  “The words of Quran are DIVINE, but the interpretation is HUMAN.”  We know this is true because there are so many disagreements even among experts in the field.  This is true of all religions.  As has been said before on this board, Allah has given us brains and the power to reason for a purpose.  It is too easy to just believe what a particular group of clerics say.  It is not fair to them, either.  Imagine the burden of having a group of followers who believe everything you utter.  Would you not rather have them engage you with questions and conversation?

Mr. Waziri, we have obviously a few things in common, especially the tendency to write too much.  That is certainly true for myself!  Why do we do this?
Thank you for your elaboration of the circumstances that led to Amina Lawal’s unhappy situation.  To me it looks like she’s just a simple country woman who was taken advantage of by that guy, and then wanted someone to do something about it.  Instead of getting justice, she was hurt further by the police and the courts.  Not only that, the guy lied about it and they just let him go.  How can that be justice?  Why is it so good to lie under the Shariah laws, as al-Hamza has said?  Why is lying encouraged?  Your judges think they’re doing the baby a favor by allowing it to be weaned before killing its mother and making it an orphan.  Surely you must know how incredibly cruel and unjust this looks to the rest of the world.  I respect your goal of protecting genealogy, but if that were really the underlying reason for this, you would also kill the baby.  Certainly his continued existence sullies your gene pool.  I am glad that you point out that stoning is not something that has happened in your country recently, that this is a sensational case perhaps exaggerated by “the Media houses of the West.”  This gives me hope that perhaps reason will prevail and Amina will be released to live her life with her baby.  

You point out the impeachment of President Clinton as an example of how we, too, disapprove of unfaithful people.  And you are correct, that we disapprove of such activities.  However, the impeachment was not something that most Americans supported.  Clinton had lied under oath in a sexual harassment suit, saying that he had not had sex with Monica, and the opposition party (the Republicans), who controlled the House of Representatives, brought the charge of impeachment because he had lied under oath.  If you go back and look at the news reports from that time, you’ll notice that the Republicans voted for impeachment, and the Democrats (the party of Clinton) voted against it.  This was purely political, nothing more.  Most Americans said that he shouldn’t have committed adultery, but that it was not a serious enough crime to remove him from office (let alone kill him!).  His approval rating among the citizens was always very high, as he did a good job as president. And as you see, he was not removed because the Republicans in the Senate could not get a majority to vote for this.

You make a good point that Americans haven’t elected a woman as president yet.  The Europeans, Indians, Israelis, Indonesians, and Pakistanis all have done better on this particular measure.  I do not know why this is.  We will do so eventually, I am sure, as women hold elective office throughout our government; but a woman president here may be several years from now.  On the other hand, women who are raped here can go to the police and report it, and the MAN will be the one arrested.  If a man fathers a baby, he will be made to pay the mother child support every month.  We have many protections for women such as sexual harassment laws (e.g., if you make sexually suggestive statements to a woman co-worker, you can be fired from your job), affirmative action (women are hired before men in many cases, by law), and the divorce laws.  Change comes slowly, but we are trying to make opportunities for our daughters equal to those for our sons.

I agree that the West has acted callously toward your countries, and has exploited your resources and people.  No question about it.  But I disagree that we only interfere in your world when we have something at stake.  The US imposed economic sanctions on South Africa’s apartheid government because apartheid was wrong and we wanted to do something about it.  Was that “none of our business?”  Are the problems in Liberia “none of our business?”  Should we have intervened in Ruwanda to help prevent the slaughter there?  Were we wrong to have entered the war in Europe and help kill Hitler?  Was his treatment of the Jews and Gypsies there just an internal German issue?  Suppose Hitler had said, as EMTL said to me, “We have the right to choose (our beliefs) and practice it, period!”  

We have religious groups in America who keep to themselves and practice their religions, such as the Ammish Mennonites in Pennsylvania or the Christian Scientists.  However, they are still subject to basic laws that involve the protection of people.  For instance, the Christian Scientists do not use doctors but instead believe in the power of prayer.  However, there are some Christian Scientist parents who have been sent to jail because they did not provide medical aid to their dying children.  Was this “none of our business?”  We will not allow children to be killed because their parents are trying to “practice their religion,” no matter how sincere they are.  

I am not a very well educated man in such things, but I know of no passage in the Quran that says “thinking is not allowed, and you are forbidden to use your brains to reason.”  To those like EMTL or al-Hamza who say “stay out of our business,” I say that I am only the first person who will bother you like this.  I am saying this to you as a practical man trying to speak to a practical people.  You may not believe this, but I am a nice guy and you have no idea what others in are saying about this issue.  Check out this Yahoo.com message board regarding the Lawal case:  http://news.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?action=l&mid=&board=37138459&sid=37138459&tid=apnigeriadeathbystoning&start=1  There is a lot of anger expressed here, and it will only get worse if this woman is killed.  I do not trust my fellow Westerners to “stay out of your business,” and I expect that at the very least we will impose economic sanctions in the same way we did against South Africa.  This is not meant to be a threat, but you should know the reality that you face.  Several of the messages on the Yahoo board are disturbing to me, and I hope you do not dismiss them as “Western arrogance and colonialist attitudes.”  You can label them however you wish, but they are reality and they will not just go away.

I am suspicious of those who say “leave us alone.”  They sound like they might depend on religion for their living.  We have similar clerics in our own “religion industry” in the US, and it is very important to them that their followers do not question them.  They say that the Prophet has said this and that, and that it means thus and so, and so that settles that!  There are some here who like that approach to life, who are very uncomfortable if they are questioned about their religious beliefs.  In short they want to be told what to do, and if someone says “but what about this…?” they shout “apostacy!” and do the questioner harm.  Are your leaders doing the best for you?  Are they open in their minds and attitudes, and willing to take suggestions from their people, or do they say “do as I say, or else!”  We have some like that in the US, like Ashcroft, but luckily our courts will not let him get away with everything.

I am sorry that I have written so much.  Peace to you all.  Jack