Death penalty: Obsolete?

[Muhammad]

Hello all.
The mere fact that we are discussing our issues not violentlybullying our way through (like America and the UK did in Iraq) means we are all civilised well meaning individuals. Getting back to the issue at hand, has anyone noticed that all the Muslims have taken a unified position for the death penalty whilst all others oppose it? This underscores a very important point.
Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said, and i am para phrasing now, the unbelievers will never relent in their opposition to the Muslim way of way till the Muslims compromise and adopt the attributes and characteristics of the unbelievers of that time.
What this says is this. All the guys opposing death penalty wants us to abolish it so that we can ?live like they do (ie compromise) We MUST NEVER DO THAT. it is non-negotiable. Just because the majority of the world do not have execution does not mean it's wrong.
Actually, think of this for a minute. Why do the civilsed countries of the US and UK ( where Jack and David live ?respectively) wage war, a euphimism for killing your adversary, if they believe shedding human blood is morally bankrupt? If a proof exists that suggests killing is OK in the event of War then our dear friends to the left must agree that we also have this certain instance when killing is sanctioned in Islam.
For those Muslims who doubt the killing of adulterers, know this. The prophet did indeed ordered the killing of a woman and a man all accused of commiting adultery. He was reluctant to pass that judgement on them as learned ulama say. The hadith Eskimo quoted is indeed sahih.
We must know this however. That concealing your sin is prefered when one commits the dreaded act. (Hadith ?1048 narrated by Abdullah Ibn Umar, Bulugh-al-maram kitabil hudud).
Finally, I suggest we end this discussion because we are, in comparison to the guys taking ?the other side, like apple and oranges. They are not Muslims and their level of iman is such in a deplorable state that they cannot fathom or even ratioinalize this divine law.
As always, may Allah forgive our mistakes.
CIAO.

PS: Dave are you disputing the fact that having a baby out of wedlock is sufficient evidence for a conviction. Also, this Amina Lawal you are supporting confessed to commiting the said crime and she can retract that confession if she wishes. All that is needed of Amina is to say she was forced to confess and she will be free, hopefully. The man she accused of impregnating her swore that he hadnt done it, so he was set free.

[ummita]

Finally, we never hear from the girls yet. FDQ, Ummita, Fulanicious and the rest, we dey wait for una!
lionger

Read all, seen alot of views
but....................mhmmmmmm all I know 4 a fact iz that......Death has got something 2 b said for it: There'z no need 2 get out of bed 4 it; Whereeva u may b, They bring it 2 u, free....................(no need 4 death penalty jo!)

Any1 can stop a man's life, but no one his death; a thousand doors open on to it. Why rule out a death penalty on humans?..........Death will take all, anyway!!!!!

[ummita]

For those Muslims who doubt the killing of adulterers, know this. The prophet did indeed ordered the killing of a woman and a man all accused of commiting adultery. He was reluctant to pass that judgement on them as learned ulama say. The hadith Eskimo quoted is indeed sahih.
We must know this however. That concealing your sin is prefered when one commits the dreaded act. (Hadith ?1048 narrated by Abdullah Ibn Umar, Bulugh-al-maram kitabil hudud).
Also, this Amina Lawal you are supporting confessed to commiting the said crime and she can retract that confession if she wishes. All that is needed of Amina is to say she was forced to confess and she will be free, hopefully. The man she accused of impregnating her swore that he hadnt done it, so he was set free.

And puhleeeeeeeeez 4 this! Shariah ruled out death penalty on adultery committers if ONLY there r witnesses who hav seen them in d actual act!!!!!

4 Amina Lawal, THEY said she has committed adultery.........who has caught her in d act? Even if she has been caugth, HOW MANY PPL WITNESSED IT?!

Duz Shariah state that we shud give a death penalty 2 any1 who has commited adultery even wen one PARTY denies d fact? :-/

If they say Amina has been found guilty & she happen 2 mention her partner, why shud he b set free? If she is 2 b stoned 2 death, so well, 4 her partner.

mhmmm some what funny @ tyms d way ppl go on bout Shariahs rulin of adult committers. Let me leave it 4 d REAL scholars. Back 2 d issue @ stake.......was sum1 sayin something?

[Eskimo]

Atleast the girls have noticed the injustice. "why not convict the man?" Nice observation, Ummita.

Al_Hamzah.. I am a serious supporter of Sharia law. Who am I to disbelieve  what the almighty himself enshrined? only that I want to see it being done the way is should be done.

Let me give you an example of 3 Islamic states I know of.

Pakistan rules based on sharia-minus stonning the adulterer-no fuse nobody ever raised anything against them.

Let us forget about this issue since nobody is ready to read and understand other people's post.

Peace.
Iran a strict muslim country does not apply stonning..infact stonning is not in the shites code at all.

Saudia a strict sunnah country applied stonning..but who in sudia will complain of any social amenity? they have good economy, zakkat system..I am common has no caus to worry.

What of Northern Nigeria today?

I also have nothing against death penalty for crimes involving lost of life not adultery for Godsake or apostacy.

[Eskimo]

Atleast the girls have noticed the injustice. "why not convict the man?" Nice observation, Ummita.

Al_Hamzah.. I am a serious supporter of Sharia law. Who am I to disbelieve  what the almighty himself enshrined? only that I want to see it being done the way is should be done.

Let me give you an example of 3 Islamic states I know of.

Pakistan rules based on sharia-minus stonning the adulterer-no fuse nobody ever raised anything against them.

Iran a strict muslim country does not apply stonning..infact stonning is not in the shites code at all.

Saudia a strict sunnah country applied stonning..but who in sudia will complain of any social amenity? they have good economy, zakkat system..I am common has no caus to worry.

What of Northern Nigeria today?

I also have nothing against death penalty for crimes involving lost of life not adultery for Godsake or apostacy.

Let us forget about this issue since nobody is ready to read and understand other people's post.

Peace.

[Jack_Fulcher]

Hello to all!  

I had a nice long weekend and when I got back I checked this board, and already we have three pages of posts!  A lot to read on such a hot topic.  I agree with Bashir that why would Allah (or God) give us brains if He hadn't intended us to use them and question everything?  This is a good mental exercise (for me, at least), and just think that it is all because we have the internet.  Ten years ago we would not have been able to have this discussion, but now here I am, some old white guy sitting in California talking with interesting, intelligent people from Africa and Scotland.  I think this is the most amazing development of science during my lifetime (right up there with putting cheese in an aerosol spray can).

I respectfully disagree with al Hamza and, to a certain extent, Waziri, who say that we should leave them alone.  Al Hamza says that we all just disagree on these issues, and that we have no business trying to discuss them.  Amin has expressed similar sentiments.  This sort of discussion was what the internet was made for in the first place.  Information, ideas, answers to questions, cooking recipies, even pictures of your new baby can be transmitted around the world in a few seconds.  Isolation is becomming harder and harder.  The kind of isolation Al Hamza and Waziri desire is no longer possible.  This is one of the reasons I sought out this sort of forum.  If you look at the Yahoo.com website, you can find plenty of chat rooms that are talking about this and other international issues, but they are all Westerners.  I already know what they have to say (and I am ashamed to say that some of the comments about this particular issue are pretty insulting.  They sound like a little al Hamza, but with a Western bias.).  (Sorry, a-H)  But the Kanoonline.com forum is refreshing in that you have expressed your views for the most part intelligently and with grace, and have made me feel welcome.

Sorry to ramble.  Too much bridge makes my brain boil.

Bashir also made an interesting point regarding underlying goals of society, and Waziri touched on this as well.  Bashir suggested that there is a tension between what is good for the individual, and what is good for the society, and this may help to explain differences in viewpoint on this issue.  I tend to agree with this.  All of life is an experiment, especially when it comes to how people should behave.  This is why we have sought out laws and religions.  In Europe all of the decisions were once made by the church and the king (or local leaders).  People didn't think they were actually separate from the church, and did not question the teachings or decisions of the church.  What they did for a living was dictated by tradition, they married whomever their parents chose, they lived in the same village in which they were born, and they never changed.  What was produced and consumed was dictated by the church or king.  This was necessary for the continuation of the village and no one questioned it (or if they did, they were stoned or burned).  

A few hundred years ago Europeans started to think differently, and started to make their own decisions.  They found that if they made their own decisions about what to do, where to live, and whom to marry, the world didn't end.  They created free markets, production was determined by what everyone wanted and were willing to buy, and economic growth increased substantially.  

There were tradeoffs, of course, as there are for any decision.  For instance, if you didn't work you had to starve (this was before there was a lot of welfare for the poor).  You might make bad choices about career or family, and you had no one else to blame for them.  People sometimes feel insecure if they don't know what to do with their lives, like they often feel in college.  If they lose their job, they have to find another one and that is very hard and often takes a long time.

On the other hand, the benefits of economic development from these new markets tend to give people a lot of choices in their lives.  I've lived in several states, each time with a good and interesting job.  You say that there is a lot of crime, but I don't notice it.  San Francisco is a safe place to live and walk around, even though there are small parts of the city that are probably less safe as they are poor and crime is higher.  This is true of any large city, and we all learn where not to go.  I've never been robbed and none of the women I know have ever been raped.

My point is that there are tradeoffs between the interests of individual freedom and development, and the individual's subservience to the society or state.  I guess this was the big thing about Communism, where decisions were still being made by only a few centralized people.  It seems that Communism, with all the best intentions in the world, just couldn't produce for its people the way free markets can.

Waziri says that Islam doesn't seek freedom and liberty, that obligation and duty to society is the right goal.  He argues that under Islam man is already free, that it is not necessary for individuals to be free in the same way they are in the West.  I can't believe this.  This sounds more like the "freedom" experienced by the slaves my country once owned.  When the slaves were first set free in 1865, many chose to stay with their former owners since it was too hard to go out and make their own way for most, and many said that they had a better life as slaves.  It took years of struggle by the former slaves and their descendents before they were able to develop the large middle class they have today.  

Would Waziri have them stay as slaves, to have all their decisions made for them?  The Muslims I know are not slaves.  They all desire what we all want - a comfortable life, an interesting and rewarding job, and a better life for their children.  That is my goal, Mr. Waziri.  The reason I first came to this forum was to give my opinion that, if this is the goal of Nigerians, and I believe it is, that some of the very extreme things they are doing, such as stoning women who commit adultry, will interfere with this goal because they cannot isolate themselves like this and still develop economically.  I will not open a branch of my business there because my female workers will be at risk from such harsh Shariah laws.  The men will, as well.  I understand that you allow men to violate your laws, such as the law against alcoholic beverages, but I could not take that risk.  Similarly, when my wife and I travel, we would not even consider a trip to your beautiful part of the world.  I would not want to subject her, or myself, to such risks.  I know this is the attitude of the typical Westerner.

Speaking of stoning, I saw a tape of someone in Iran being stoned.  I found it at http://www.iran-e-azad.org/stoning/video.html .  It apparently had to be smuggled out of the country.  If they are so proud of their enforcement of such laws, why don't they broadcast it to the whole world?  Are they ashamed?  Are they afraid that foreign investment or tourism will be impaired?

I've been writing this for over an hour, but must catch up on my work.  I'll pick up from here tomorrow, if you allow...

Peace, Jack

[Waziri]

Most impressed,

At least everybody can see now that we have reached some stage. Abolishment of death penalty is no longer the issue.

What remain are the use of religious laws as raised by Bashir and the use of some technicalities related to the epistemological link of the laws as pointed out by Eskimo.

But let me respond to Eskimo first who shares the same belief with me.

You said first that you believe in the authenticity of the Hadiths referred to above but only feel that there is nowhere in those ahadith where the MARITAL STATUS of the culprits where asked. To this I will say I don’t subscribe to your kind of understanding. I am sure in the numerous ahadith, which dealt with the subject in dispute the maritat status of the culprit is always made clear. This, explicitly or implicitly. Please check it up again in The Book of Hudood,  Muwatta Imam Malik or Bukhari.  

On your second point, which suggested that, the Hadith of stoning was recorded sometime in the early period of the Hegira. Though you too say you are not sure but though I cannot be precise,  the general understanding in the science of Usul is the ahadith remained relevant even after the demise of the Holy Prophet because there are many instances where they were discussed by his close companions. Upon all there are instances where the record says they have practiced it. I think this also clarified the issue of Aisha and Surat Al-Nur.

Third , if some body should accuse any body  of adultery he brings four witnesses or  confession on the part of the perpetrator to it.  Pregnancy in some school of thoughts of law in Islam, particularly Maliki is considered to be enough evidence for adultery but in the other schools it is not so. And that was the central core of my discourse with Sanusi Lamido. If really we are restricting our worldview to Maliki law then we have no alternative than doing it that way. This is the argument. It is academic. Especially when it is merged with the proof of confession.

You said the adulterer is to be flogged? This is why I think you doubt the authenticity of the Ahadith we’ve quoted above.

Then you said:

    "But I dont know may be we are still expected to fluck out our eyes when they push us to commit sin as said by Jesus since our religion is the continuation of his teaching with no abrogation and changes in Law for a bettter society."

I think I was very explicit in the beginning that the LAWS of the TORAH as affirmed in the Qur’an should remain valid and that is only if no any alternative is given thereafter. This is the stand of the scholars of Islamic Jurisprudence.

On Bashir’s argument, which gives, a death blow to faith by saying: "faith is a funny thing cos anybody can claim it."

I think there is no best answer than to tell Bashir that we are all human beings.  And all of us are a combination of faith and reason, emotions and intellect, spirit and flesh. And what is most unfortunate is one cannot in any way know exactly where emotions change to  intellect or viceversa nor can one tell exactly the point where faith changes to reason or where the spirit lives in the flesh.

This reminds me of a story of a learned person who claims all his actions to be the product of reason but when he was asked as to whether his children are really his he answered in the affirmation. But when asked further as to why he believes so he said it was his wife who gave birth to them. Well I don’t know what answer Bashir will give if he was in the same position. But it is obvious that the professor believes his children to be his only on account of faith. He has not established on account of reason that his children are truly his. For if he has to do that he would then be consulting physician to confirm in every occasion his wife gives birth. As a result he settled for faith to conclude that his children are his.

Such are human beings. This is why seeing ourselves as the way we are we settled for Revelation, Revelation and Reason. Certainly not reason alone.  

[al_hamza]

so mr jack,

thanks to you and eskiom, you hae given me the weapon with which i shall bring u down,

jack, you talked of tourism and western investment bla bla bla, Eskimo you said Saudi had a very sound economy, plus a good zakkat system,

both of you have made the point that you see money as the alpha and omega of a mans life,

EXCELENT!

now the kill comes,

you see, once the Prophet of Islam, Mohammed (S.A.W) was very worried with what would befall his Ummah (followers) in case they start sinning too much, all other Ummahs had some sort of punishment upon them for sinning,

So the Prophet one day, cried and prayed for His Ummah, He prayed to God that his Ummah doesnt have to see the Punishment that other Ummah's did, and God Promised that to our Nobel Prophet that His Ummah would not face the kind of punishment others have,

The Prophet then Asked YA ALLAH, what punishment will my Ummah face? Allah then said "Money, WE SHALL GIVE THEM MONEY". Having abundance of money during the days of the Prophet and His Sahaba's(companions) was seen as threat to the very imaan, Abubakar (R.T.A) was amongst the richest of Mecca, He voluntarily gave up all his assets for the sake of Islam,

as for jack, since our shariah states cannot grow..... because of the shariah, which means no "tourism" can you please tell me why your lovely california (i personally love the landscape there) is facing a deficit of $30billion? how comes?  WHY!

as for eskimo, so what if pakistan is not practising the stonning part of the shariah? does that mean that they have shown us that it isnt right? they themselves are a confused nation, they continue to fight with india on religeous and kashmir disputes while the qadiyani's (the ones we know as ahmadiya in kano) continue to reside within pakistan boundries plus they have thier own Mecca (the qadiyani's) in pakistan,

then we have lionger, you have already on several other occasions shown your loyalty to the ku-klux-klan so, i dont see anything surprising that you support jack and dave,
just a piece of advice, the whiteman is known to drown his dog after he's too old and cant work anymore.

kuma, not surprisingly, since you knew ummita would surely show her vast knowledge here, you bravely invited her and the other girls down here, but dont forget, we have smart girls too that have "brains" for instance kilishi.

hey, is it true that them gonna kill a guy for killing an abortion doctor? jack is that true?  i donno, cnn can be so stupid, they are lying, jack told me in the US people dont get killed for killing, wow bushman traits in the white america!

adious

Shariah will stay,

And insha'Allah we shall be the GUARDS!

[Eskimo]

Brother Waziri,
I read the places you pointed out and I see many Hadiths there where MARITAL STATUS was asked. Thanks for the correction. May Allah guide us.

Allah has promised to protect his Holy Book from corruption-the context...the Arabic context is divine and therefore protected but the interpretations (tafsir, exegesis) is HUMAN... What of hadith? does it have such protection? ALL OF IT IS HUMAN written well after the Prophet and despite his warnings that it should nt be written down.
With all this we believe in hadith cos they were mention as complement (NOT SUPPLEMENT) of quran in the Quran itself. But then are we to trust any Hadith that is against the clear injuction of the holy book. Let me say Quran is in plain Arabic (it bosted of that) why then write volumes explaining the meaning.
The compilers of hadith although very sincere and devoted to Allah, were still human capable of errors. so taking any Hadith to study it under the science of hadith will not prove or disprove its authenticity. The only Litmus test is to use Quran as done recently by Saudi scholar Sheik Albany (RIP).

DO YOU KNOW THAT NO PENALTY IS MENTION OUTSIDE QURAN EXCEPT IN THE CASE OF ADULTERY (STONNING TO DEATH)

Why should only this be found in Hadith.

Concernng PREGNANCY you talk of MALIKI school, although I know...may I still ask what is MALIKI school of THOUGH? Why must we follow interpretations not the essence. Maliki school of though is an interpretation of Islam to suit the then people of Medina. Read MUWATTA MALIK well you will references like "..I dont know but I see people of Medina doing such and such.." All other madhahibs are like that, why dont we have our own suitable to our time or simply get back to essence and HOLD FAST UNTO THE ROPE OF GOD ALTOGETHER AND DO NOT DIVIDE YOURSELVES (into Sect, Madhhabs, Tarikas, sunnah or shia..)
atlest you said some school do not follow the said ruling. Then are following different sharia then? if they are also muslim then their Islam is BETTER.

al_Hamzah,
Is not money that we are talking of, unless you confuse money with economy. If you mean economy by saying MONEY then Allah (SAW) also want us to behave as such.
In the Pillars of Islam the ZAKKAH system is the third only to Shahada itself and sallat.
why should so many verses talk about zakkah (an economic plan device to muslim society by the grand designer Himself.) and helping the poor. any where Allah says 'strugge in the way of Allah (Jihad)" he mentions "with your WEALTH" first then "and yourselves (physical, preaching other means)"
MAKE CONDITION BETTER FOR US BEFORE YOU START AMPUTATING US! afterall Umar (RTA) suspended amputation during famine.

Jack
Wecome back.

Salam

[Anonymous]

the most celebrated western civilization was that of the greeks. specifically athens upto the time of pericles. the greeks had a notion of the state, of duty and respect for the law that we have no idea of. the greeks believed that the law was essentially good. laws exist to regulate society n protect rights that individuals cannot enforce effectively. that is the islamic view of sharia. not that it could be improved, no. it is understood to be perfect because it is based on divine writ. one problem b/w islam n other religions is that islam believes the ideal environment for attaining salvation is an islamic one. a condition where every person is consious of god. muslims believe that sharia is the best law for man. sharia is to men what a manual is to a car. since god made us, he shd know when we shd change our oil, what is the right tyre pressure n so on. the islamic focus on attaining a semblance of god's kingdom of earth thus comes into direct conflict with other religions' view of "pie in d sky." muslims believe that whoever accepts god's judgement will go to heaven. so if amina is killed she wd go to heaven. and since the world is such a sorrowful place maybe she shd be put out of her misery. god knows i dont think her life was great before this politics started. i wonder if its better now that she is a celebrity.

[dfynest]

so if amina is killed she wd go to heaven. and since the world is such a sorrowful place maybe she shd be put out of her misery. god knows i dont think her life was great before this politics started. i wonder if its better now that she is a celebrity.

??? ??? ???Does that mean if she had been rich and living la vida loca then she'd deserve a second chance?

[Anonymous]

okay i have a lil comment cant yall just bring up good points and argue like adults without throwing direct and indirect insults at each other? i mean if this was how people debated do yall think their would be televised debates on TV. this is a very good topic but what good is it if everyone cant put their personal feelings aside and just prove a point intelectually. we live to agree and disagree but that doesnt mean we all cant be civil with one another, thats the essence of a good debate being civil and make good arguments and points,becuz no matter what the muslims say the christians will never understand our reason for the death penalty and no matter what the christians say our beliefs are our beliefs and its here to stay and thats for us muslims to deal with not any one else. so the bottom line is no matter how much we argue nothing is goin to change so we might as well learn to live with eachother and accept the fact that we're all different.
            one luv yall.
           

[Jack_Fulcher]

Hi again.

Our new friend Hauwa makes a good point about civility.  I doubt that the Prophet would make fun of his opponents, or engage in personal attacks when debating an issue.  I hope that I have been respectful, and if I haven't I apologize.  I do disagree, however, that discussion is useless.  I myself have gone through several opinions regarding the death penalty in my own country since I was young.  I was strongly opposed 20 years ago, but I have come to agree that there are some so hopeless and who have killed so viciously and without remorse, like McVeigh, or the man who they executed today in Florida (Paul Hill, if I remember correctly) who killed the doctor who performed abortions, that it is reasonable for the soceity to demand their deaths.  So I guess today you might say that I am in favor of the death penalty for those who kill several people, and who show no remorse for their acts.  We also have the death penalty for those who are hired to kill someone.  But generally we just send murders to prison, often for the rest of their life without possibility of parole.

And al Hamza, I don't know where you thought I said that we don't execute murders in the US.  We don't execute for lesser crimes, but the most vicious and hopeless of the murders are still executed here.  Europe has stopped executing people, and maybe our friend Dave Hill can shed some light on this.

This last example brings up a point made by Dave Hill in an earlier post.  He points out that the death penalty has not been shown to be a deterent to murder.  This is true.  Many studies have been done in my own country that have shown that there is no correlation between murders and the imposition of the death penalty.  I suppose the one exception might be the crime mentioned above - murder for hire.  But usually those who kill do so out of anger and without thought of the consequences if they are caught.

Ummita, what a fresh voice!  I am glad you joined our happy group!  Let's hear from more of the women who read these posts!  I think your point is a good one:  Why are they killing this poor girl, but are letting the louse who got her pregnant go free??  I think we both know the reason:  If the authorities ever started to kill the men for these acts, there would all of a sudden be pressure on the clerics and academics to find some reasons in your holy writings to let them both live.  The men in your country wouldn't stand for it!  In my country we say "It's a man's world," and that's true everywhere.  I hope that your country will try to treat men and women more fairly, and with justice.  The laws that say that a woman who gets raped had better have several witnesses, or else just shut her mouth about it, are unjust, no mater what anyone else says about it. :'(

It sound like Amin is saying that the Prophet would prefer his followers to lie than to confess to a sin.  Is this true??  I confess that I don't understand Islam the way that you do, but I can't believe that lying to avoid prosecution is the true Muslim way.  Is this any way to structure a healthy society?  Please tell me that I misunderstand you.

Waziri, you are erudite and apparently well versed in your subjects.  I commend you.  I do have a few questions about what you have said in your recent posts.  You accuse me of "mischief," but I do not understand this.  According to the Shariah laws, mischief has to do with the destruction of property (you kill animals, poison water supplies, damage buildings, etc.).  Please see http://www.zamfaraonline.com/sharia/chapter10.html which defines the term "mischief."  If you mean that I mean you harm, I assure you that that is not the case.  Are you so unsure of your convictions that you would want to prevent all argument or criticism?  That's what al Hamza sounds like.  "Please stop talking to us and leave us alone!  I'll never change, so just go away and let us stone our women as we please."  That won't work any more, al Hamza.  The world has changed, and you can't hide in your little corner of the world and do as you please.  

I don't believe that Muslims are as isolationist as you appear to be.  Waziri points proudly to the example of a conquering army exchanging prisoners for books.  This is more like the Muslims I know.  One of my colleagues is from Nigeria, a Muslim, and is thirsty for knowledge and new ideas.  He and his family will do well in this world, because he is intelligent and works hard, and is constantly learning.  He never says "Leave me alone and don't talk to me.  I already know all that I want to know."

I think that Waziri gets off the track, however, when he tries to blame the outside world for the problems of his country.  Science and Western ideas seem to be his enemies, but science built this internet, science is putting food on our tables, and science is keeping us living to 100, when we lived only to 70 or so when I was young.  Science is not our enemy, it is our tool to use for our benefit and for the benefit of our families.

I am really enjoying the posts of Eskimo, lionger, and Waziri.  They are all intelligent and I am learning much about Islam from them.  Are you all from the same school?  I really don't know much about how this web site came about.

I am disturbed by some of the sentiment regarding death.  Are you serious that death might be preferred to life?  There's an old country western song in the US that goes:  "Everyone wants to go to heaven, but no one wants to die."  To throw up your hands and say "Well, life is tough and maybe she would be better off dead" is pathetic.  Life is to be lived, and you should not give up no matter what.  I know that your Prophet would not support this sentiment.  At least I hope so.

Bye for now.  I agree with those who say "let's hear from more of the women!"  They must have intellegent contributions to this topic.  And let's hear from the lurkers, too.  Ta ta.  Jack

[Anonymous]

??? ??? ???Does that mean if she had been rich and living la vida loca then she'd deserve a second chance?

may be

[Eskimo]

no matter what the muslims say the christians will never understand our reason for the death penalty  ?

Hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii, Death penalty is not a muslims thing, every culture and every nation executes.

so execution for murder is not a new thing...even b4 Islam.

may be the "muslim ???" thing is to execute (a woman ???) for commiting a "SIN  ???:o"