Hama vs Fatah;What a demoralizing?

[Muhsin]

Frankly, what these two plastinian factions are presently doing is absolutely heart-rending and mind boggling- beyond my perspicacity. What a shameless action, despite the external pressure they are being, for decades, recieving from their great adversory Israel. :shock:

Days ago, there was cease fire aggrement, but today, sadly enough it's heavy fire shooting from every nook and cranny of the Gaza, I heard in BBC Worl Today: 1 person dead, and a number wounded. Kai Jama'a kujifa; between muslims who are alwaays saying La'ila ha'illa Allah.

Subsequently, I now no longer have an iota of symphathy upon them since they too have none upon themselves. Koba hakaba?

Allah ya kiyaye-Ameen!

[HUSNAA]

U know the principle of divide and conquer??
Has it ever occurred to anyone that Israel might be behind the hargitsi between Hamas and Fatah? Couldnt Israeli snipers have been sent to kill those poor little tikes (whose father is a Fatah stalwart maybe he was the target we will never know)on their way to sch, thus setting off a chain reaction of counter attacks? Hamas has denied being behind the murder of the kids. Maybe they will deny it seeing that the condemnation for killing tiny tots is more than Hamas can handle. But  I think Israel is probably behind this. In any case, it is very embarrassing. Israel and America must be laughing their bowels out at this Palestinian predicament.

Kai Jama'a kujifa; between muslims who are alwaays saying La'ila ha'illa Allah.

Kai you have missed the worst culprits- the Iraqis.

[lionger]

U know the principle of divide and conquer??
Has it ever occurred to anyone that Israel might be behind the hargitsi between Hamas and Fatah? Couldnt Israeli snipers have been sent to kill those poor little tikes (whose father is a Fatah stalwart maybe he was the target we will never know)on their way to sch, thus setting off a chain reaction of counter attacks? Hamas has denied being behind the murder of the kids. Maybe they will deny it seeing that the condemnation for killing tiny tots is more than Hamas can handle. But I think Israel is probably behind this. In any case, it is very embarrassing. Israel and America must be laughing their bowels out at this Palestinian predicament.

Well yes it did occur to me that some might assume that Israel is somewhat responsible behind the scenes - not surprising. But let's forget about Israel for a bit. When has 'condemnation for killing tiny tots' ever restrained the Hamas or any of the Fatah-associated militant groups in their violent struggle against Israel? It has not. So is it any surprise that now they seek to consume each other in a similar manner? They are only being themselves. Hatred and unbridled violence always bring ruin to those that harbour them as well as others. Therefore, these groups are squarely responsible for the recent misery in Gaza and deserve our widespread condemnation.

Israel's complicity in all this is the economic squeeze it, the EU and the US have imposed on the Hamas govt for its refusal to recognise the state of Israel. This action has made the govt unable to pay the salaries of over 100,000 of its workers, leading to civil unrest an putting the Hamas govt under pressure.

Kai you have missed the worst culprits- the Iraqis.

Very true! Muhsin the Iraqi situiation is much worse; much, much worse. Do you know that the vast majority of violent Iraqi deaths in the past three years (over 400,000 lives)has actually been due to sunni-shia violence? Think about it  :?

[HUSNAA]

Groan.... here we go again.... Zionism, Lionger and (where is  that fireball :shock: Ete?) versus Husnaa Muhsin, Waziri and a few others.... Lol I havent the energy for a long drawn out combat
:lol:. I cave in... what ever u say Lionger!!!!!   :D

[lionger]

Lol Husnaa, what an amusing response! Here Muhsin started a thread on the Hamas-Fatah skirmishes, and the first thing you said is that Israel must be behind this somehow. So I say, why must Israel be directly responsible? Why not start with the facts that are immediately obvious - which is Hamas and Fatah? You barely contemplated that.

Now you have concluded that I'm arguing on the side of Zionism!!  :lol:  how could that be? What does Zionism have to do with this?? Why must I be arguing for Zionism because I said Hamas and Fatah are squarely to blame? Never mind the fact that I provided an avenue for Israeli complicity, which was your argument anyways!

No wonder these discussions wear us out. Months back when we discussed the Israel-Hezbollah conflict, the same thing happened: some sidelined the immediate facts and just lashed out at Israel. Waziri went a step further to attack Zionism, Judaism and the Jewish scriptures and we all know how that discussion ended. Seriously this obsession with Zionism will do no good. To allow ourselves to be consistently distracted by this specter simply obfuscates objective evaluation, which in this case starts nowhere else but with the Hamas and Fatah!

Don't worry, I ain't looking forward to another drawn-out debate here either. And I very much doubt that Ete will reappear any time soon. Wouldn't really be surprised if he disappeared in the same way that those Yerima threads did...

[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

Why don't you look at something much closer to home. It has now been established that the arabic janjaweed militia in Darfur is actually killing and raping black Darfur refugees who have fled into refugee camps in Chad. They don't even have the Sunni v Shiite excuse. It is quite simply arab Moslems killing black Moslems with the connivance of the government of Sudan. The tiny Chad army is trying to guard the refugees in its area with little success.The latest figures from the UN put the death toll at about 250,000.
The African nations force sent into the Sudan to try to stop this is underfunded, under equipped and getting no funds from the UN or the USA which means they are almost powerless to intervene and do something about this - though it is hugely to Nigeria's credit that Nigeria provides most of these troops.
Obansanjo's pleas to the Un and the US for serious help are being ignored.
Much of this information is available on the web.

It's nearly as serious a matter as me posting rude jokes (sarcasm).

[Muhsin]

Groan.... here we go again.... Zionism, Lionger and (where is  that fireball :shock: Ete?) versus Husnaa Muhsin, Waziri and a few others.... Lol I havent the energy for a long drawn out combat
:lol:. I cave in... what ever u say Lionger!!!!!   :D

C'mon Husnaa, how could you let lionger's words make your blood run cold? Don't you know their part? Remember...... :idea:

[Muhsin]

Why don't you look at something much closer to home. It has now been established that the arabic janjaweed militia in Darfur is actually killing and raping black Darfur refugees who have fled into refugee camps in Chad. They don't even have the Sunni v Shiite excuse. It is quite simply arab Moslems killing black Moslems with the connivance of the government of Sudan. The tiny Chad army is trying to guard the refugees in its area with little success.The latest figures from the UN put the death toll at about 250,000.
The African nations force sent into the Sudan to try to stop this is underfunded, under equipped and getting no funds from the UN or the USA which means they are almost powerless to intervene and do something about this - though it is hugely to Nigeria's credit that Nigeria provides most of these troops.
Obansanjo's pleas to the Un and the US for serious help are being ignored.
Much of this information is available on the web.

It's nearly as serious a matter as me posting rude jokes (sarcasm).

Dave, you don't know the actual happenings there,I think. But those that are saying to have being killed by Janjawid are not Muslims. And that's why UN, US, UK and host of other external 'friends' of Muslims are worried. And as everyone is aware, Arabs are very racial; they (whites) can even murder the black ones 'cuz of colour difference. If that is the case. But God knows the best.

And moreover, I'll like you to understand; ones belief does't reveal his morality, decency, thoughtfulness, etc. Whatsoever they are doing to whoever, Allah is watching and He only can judge accordingly.

OBJ's has, to me, done nothing to call this off. What a person who fails restore peace in his home could have done so in others? What's happening nowadays in Niger-Delta oil region?

[Muhsin]

.

Kai Jama'a kujifa; between muslims who are alwaays saying La'ila ha'illa Allah.

Kai you have missed the worst culprits- the Iraqis.[/quote]

Yes I know its but there is thick line of demacation between the two. Eg You know how Shiites are; and you know their beliefs towards many true Islmaic fundementals. Thus no need to say much on that, ok?

Sincerely, I don't like to be too much 'blabber' on our religios internal affair while 'others' are onlooking, hearing with every fibre of their being. Hope you got it Husnaa.

[_Waziri_]

Dave,

Stop worrying over that thing, life is multidimensional while we discuss the inappropriatness of your so-called crude joke we also discuss other things. I just came out of a political meeting that lasted 14 hours, another thing of life.

Concerning the subject of discourse here I must say that America and her Zionist policies must carry the blood of the Muslims killing themselves in Iraqi and recently in the places mentioned by Muhsin. Why? one may ask.

Anywhere in the world where there is a government, law and order and a foreign occupaying power came to topple that government leading the state to anarchy, the ppl in that state would not behave normally regardless of the faith they profess. Their will be crimes as much as armed robbery, sexual assaults on women and even killings of no proportions. Those among us trained in the social sciences know about this realism. So it is not new Muhsin.

Concerning Darfur, the Janjaweed are not killing the blacks in the interest of the government and that is why we are not worried. Janjaweed is a rebel wing just like Maitatsine of Kano in the 1980s which was a disaster to all not only Muslims.

[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

Rubbish!
The janajweed is doing the will of the Sudan Government and everybody knows that except apologists with their heads in the sand.
The Sudan Governm,ent is preventing anybody stopping the killing.
I heard the general in charge of the Nigerian troops in Darfur say this in a live interview.
This bears no resemblance whatsoever to the Maitasine distrurbances in Kano.
The fact of the matter is that you only see what you want to see on any matter.
You seem to find the killing of ehnically black people in hundreds of thousands a matter of no importance. If it was the Americans or other bad white folk you'd be up in arms. Because it is moslem Arabs you'd rather just ignore it.

[_Waziri_]

Then, it would have been treated by the International Communities like a war between the Darfurians and the Government. But instead the story is always like since the government of Sudan cannot handle the Janjaweed - a Maitatsine sort of, out of control of the government - then an International coalition is needed. This is the colour of the discourse even in media houses across the globe.

Remember, if the Nigerian soldier would accuse the government of Sudan of complicity, he did that expressing his own opinion about the crisis not the official position of Nigerian government. Whatevet the case maybe, we've said it here many times that what is happening in Sudan is wrong as we've been saying it in regard to Palestine, Iraq, Lebanon and Niger-Delta region in Nigeria. What else do you want?

[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

General Colin Powell addressed the UN on this matter and described what is being done to the black people of Darfur as "genocide".

[lionger]

Muhsin,

C'mon Husnaa, how could you let lionger's words make your blood run cold? Don't you know their part? Remember......

Please point out what I said that would make Husnaa's blood boil. And what do you mean by 'our part'? Making the same mistake Husnaa did?

Dave, you don't know the actual happenings there,I think. But those that are saying to have being killed by Janjawid are not Muslims. And that's why UN, US, UK and host of other external 'friends' of Muslims are worried. And as everyone is aware, Arabs are very racial; they (whites) can even murder the black ones 'cuz of colour difference. If that is the case. But God knows the best.

I think you really need to get your facts right, not Dave. Firstly, the people of Darfur are overwhelmingly muslim. Look it up! This is not like the sudanese civil war that pitted the muslim north against the christian/animist south. The Darfurians are all muslim, African (for the most part, there are some Arab ethnicities) and they all speak Arabic. So you ought to be very concerned about Darfur - even more so than  Palestine. According to the UN and other NGO sources, over 400,000 Darfurian civillians are dead and over 2 million have left their homes in the 3+ years of fighting. Isn't that something to be concerned about? Never mind the fact that their being non-muslim should not make you apathetic!

UN and intl community concern has to do with the escalating humanitarian crisis, not the religious affiliation of Darfur victims.

Secondly,

OBJ's has, to me, done nothing to call this off. What a person who fails restore peace in his home could have done so in others? What's happening nowadays in Niger-Delta oil region?

What do you mean, 'OBJ has done nothing'? Nigerian troops make up a significant fraction of the 7000 AU peacekeeping forces currently in Darfur, and Nigeria has hosted peace talks between the rivalling parties. Nigeria and the AU have fallen short because they are ill-equipped and underfunded. The AU force was to be replaced by a much stronger and larger UN force long ago, but that didn't happen due to Sudanese opposition. Worse, the newly estabished UN Human Rights Council would rather discuss Israel and nothing else. It has taken increased pressure and clamoring from human rights groups, the international community and even Kofi Annan, for the Council to 'send a fact-finding team of experts' to the Sudan. Yet amazingly, this Council has 13 African members and over a third of its membership are OIC members! Shouldn't these nations know better?

Now concerning the Iraq situation you said

Yes I know its but there is thick line of demacation between the two. Eg You know how Shiites are; and you know their beliefs towards many true Islmaic fundementals. Thus no need to say much on that, ok?

Haba Muhsin, are you implying that the Shiites are the only guilty sect in Iraq? Nothing could be farther from the truth! Please don't fall victim to an 'us vs. them' mentality; this ruins objectivity. I fear that this attitude is partly responsible for the apathetic response to Darfur.  International pressure from the West on Sudan is obviously perceived by some as a an attack on Sudan's Islamic image/identity. Coupled with widespread ignorance of what is really happening there, this has goaded many into passing off what is infact an urgent humanitarian crises. This is indeed a tragedy!

[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

Wel said, Lionger.
We have a saying in Scotland
"There's nane sae blind as thaim that willna see"
meaning
"There is nobody as blind as a person who refuses to see what is in front of him."