KanoOnline.com Forum

In the other thread Mr Fulcher insinuated that there is some sentiments on this board that Hitler was right in what he did to the Jews. That is the sole reason why I come up with this so that we can try to understand, stand but certainly not overstand the Jewish and Muslims questions as they are right from the on set.

First let us see what the chairman of the school of Oriental Studies, Hebrew University, Jerusalem  says  about our religions:

"In a recent  French-Algerian  publication, Islam has been characterized as Judaism with universalic tendencies. There is some truth in this definition"

Prof. S.D. Goitein in his book -   Arabs and Jews, page 35.

About our attitude to the Jews he says:

"the jewish historians of the nineteen century, as in the case of Graetz(the authour of a classic ten-volume  history of Jews), who were deeply embittered by the contrast between enlightened ideas of that century and the denial of civic rights to the jews in many european countries, pointed out most emphatically that the legal and actual position of the jews during the middle ages was much better in muslim-arab countries than in christian europe; and the 'golden age' of judaism in muslim spain has become a phrase which has found its why even to the most popular accounts of jewish history."

Jews and Arabs, page 7  

Why then Mr Fulcher thinks and believes we are happy with what Hitler did to the Jews?????

For God's sake is not the question the other way round? That is,  why is it that the Jews are happy doing to us what was done to them by Hitler?

Hear this good-seeking Jew:

 
"How was it possible I wondered , for people  endowed with so much creative intelligence as the jews to think of the zionist-arab conflict in jewish terms alone?

Did they not realize that the problem of the in palestine could, in the long run, be solved only through friendly cooperation with the arabs?

Were they so hopelessly blind to the painful future which their policy must bring?- to the struggles, the bitterness and the hatred which the jewish island, even if temporarily successful, would forever remain exposed in the midst of a hostile Arab see?

And how strange, I thought, that a nation which had suffered so many wrongs in the course of its long and sorrowful diaspora was now, in single-minded pursuit of its own goal, ready to inflict a grievous wrong on another nation, too, THAT WAS INNOCENT OF ALL THAT PAST JEWISH SUFFERING.

Such a phenomenon, I knew, was not unknown to history; but it made me, nonetheless, very sad to see it enacted before my eyes"

Leopold Weiss is a jounalist, Autrian-German Jew, then A special Correspondent with Frankfurter Zeitung.

Okay now Mr Fulcher why all these, why  are they constantly on a fight with us?

I think it is these things we are suppose to be discussing here. We are suppose to be raising placards saying : " The world is watching" to them, not to our implementation of Shari'a which suggests stonning only when a crime is perpetrated.

Mr. Waziri,

I was referring to an exchange I saw in your "War on Iraq" thread, among Ibro2q, lionger, and Amin, on 3/19/03 and 3/20/03.  To their credit, lionger and Amin disagreed strongly with the views of Ibro2q about "Hitler did the right thing."  I was just disturbed that someone with the intelligence  generally exhibited by the posters in this Forum would suggest that Hitler was anything less than a monster and disaster for Europe, Jews, Gypsies, other "undesirables," and the Germans themselves.

As for why the Muslims and Jews fight so much, I really do not know.  I am neither a Muslim nor a Jew, and have not paid much attention to the conflict in the Middle East, so I can only guess.  It seems to me that the insertion of Jews into what is now Israel by the Europeans after World War II was an insane act of a guilty conscience.  Certainly neither the British nor the Americans paid much attention to the problems of the Jews in the mid-1930s, and there was much anti-semitism in both countries (and throughout Europe), and we all turned the other way when we got reports of harassment, oppressive new laws, and the occasional murder of Jews.  However, the revelation of what Hitler and the Germans had done to them in the concentration camps during the war was an immense shock which made it difficult to ignore their cries for a homeland where they could be masters of their own fate.  For centuries the Jews had been persecuted by their host European countries, and for most of us this was a new fact that made us ashamed, I guess (I was born after the war, so I can only guess how people felt from reading history books).  So we said:  Why not give them their own country in an area they are interested in, like Palestine?  The attitudes of those already living in the area were not considered much, I guess, or the British assumed that most were nomads and did not have much claim to the land anyway.  Who would want to own that stinking desert, so why not give it to the Jews and get them out of our hair and make them happy?  This seems typical of the thinking at the time, as silly as it sounds now.

I am making a lot of this up, and I am sure there are millions of people who read this Forum regularly who know much more than I do about this history.  My attitude has always been to let them fight, because they seem to hate each other so much anyway.  Not very enlightened, I admit.  But what do you do about someone who seems to want to persecute the Palestinians the way the Germans persecuted the Jews in the mid-1930s?  And what do you do about someone who makes heroes of kids who wrap themselves in dynamite and blow up other kids on a bus or in a market?  Both sides seem to be out of control with religious and class hatred.  I agree that the $4 billion of aid we send to Israel every year is wrong, even though we send $2 billion to Egypt each year as well (something that came out of the Camp David accords with Sadat, I think).  There are many Americans who are opposed to sending anything to either country, but it would be impossible to stop this because of the strength of the Jewish lobbies in this country.  The Jews have worked hard since they started to come here at the beginning of the 20th century.  They value education, and becoming a doctor or lawyer is one of the most cherished goals of a young Jew.  Since this is a democracy, their wealth and organization has paid off.  They can be counted on to vote and to donate to candidates who they like, so they have great influence.  If Muslims were to put the same efforts into developing their careers and fortunes, which is available to them in this country, they too could wield influence, but they have not done this yet.

So we agree on this basic point, Mr. Waziri.  The actions of the state of Israel are bad.  One of the Jewish people I play bridge with told me that Israel will have to answer for their treatment of the Palestinians some day.  Many Jews in this country are uncomfortable with what Israel has done under Sharon, especially the settlements.  However, they also realize that the Arabs are generally in favor of destroying Israel, not living with them.  Hence the Israelis believe they need to be tough with folks who are trying to blow them up, bus by bus, and who are funded by such "moderate" Arabs as the Saudis.  Until both sides get tired of fighting, like in Ireland, we are likely to have a mess there for some time.

I will respond to your other post in the "adultry" thread, Mr. Waziri.  I am getting dizzy trying to keep up with all of these new threads you create.  

Jack

Now there's a balanced view on the subject. I must admit in defense of the forumnites here that only Ibro2g ever went that far. However, I was quite surprised by the fact that only Amin and I responded  in opposition to his surprising outburst. Yet look how ppl lambasted FDS' distasteful debut, or even earlier, when newmember2 posted his inglorious 'are the Fulani holding back the Hausa' article. Aren't all these comments guilty of the same thing? Are bigotry and hatred are acceptable as long as it is directed towards americans, christians, israel - any 'perceived' enemies of Islam? Waziri it is perfectly understandable that Israel's actions are roundly condemned on this forum, but then y the inconspicuous silence over religious fundamentalism factor? All the times I have seen the middle east issue discussed on this forum, hardly have I  heard anyone condemn militant 'islamist groups for killing innocents in Israel. Muslim deaths are undertandably more painful to bear but murder is still wrong regardless of who the victim and villain are. We should condemn evil wherever we see it; even if it means going against our own flesh and blood.

There are good jews as there are also bad muslim.
did u hear of those Israeli Pilot that refused to fly any craft destined to drop bombs in Palestine lands.

Jews and Muslim are fighting each coz US and Europe want them to. And even now if they wish the war can stop. Recently the palestinian rep in UN accused US of double standard in its middle east policy and he is damn right.

When Spain was reconquered by Isabella both Jews and muslims were subject of persecution by the new lords. so I believe jews and muslims have somethings in common.

i will soon get an Ayah from the Qur'an with its translation, and it will be a sorry fact if any muslim on board opposes it.
Its a Verse which probably is amongst the reason if not the top of the reasons why america wants Saudi to stop printing Qur'an (axtaghfurullah)

Lionger we are all humanbeings . How do you expext me to respond to that topic condemning what Hitler did to the jews when the jews are doing the same to me now?

How do I just raise my voice saying Hitler was wrong in the past when the same kind of wrong perpetrated in the past is being done in the present?

Aint it better to attack the present wrong than to start scrolling searching for the past wrong to condemn or praise?

Didn't you see in the above quotations how they confess that I have given them more place during my "tenure" as the leader of the world than they are giving me now?I will come back to the other aspects you raised later.

For Mr Fulcher who says "As for why the Muslims and Jews fight so much, I really do not know. I am neither a Muslim nor a Jew, and have not paid much attention to the conflict in the Middle East, so I can only guess."

I really wonder why you've never paid much attention to the conflict in the middle east, to know why human beings are mercilessly massacred up there, but instead felt it more expedient to squeal when we say adultery is a crime worth capital punishment down here, to the extent that you have to chant 'the world is watching" to us. I really wonder. I really wonder why your dispositions in regard to our legal theories seem so complacent unlike those you attach to the middle east issue which are accompanied with " I guess" . Mr Fulcher are we being fair to humanity? How can you put it that "Muslims and Jews fight so much" when it is clear that it is genocide that is going on there where a whole group of people are being exterminated every day, not a fight where the two parties involved have a chance of winning?

You see, Mr Fulcher one cannot boast understanding world politics, economics and legal theories without a good knowledge of Jewish-Muslim conflicts. True to God anything that happens in the world right from the days of the crusades have one to one relationship with Jewish-Muslims conflict. Some historians say "History is nothing more than the story of Jews and Muslim". I will continue to discuss this matter as our discourse continues unless when  I see sentiment is clearly overuling, then I hold my peace. But jews have always been incharge of the Europe and America that gave them Palestine displacing the population living their without providing an alternative place for them to reside. The population that never knew any other home apart from Palestine.

And Mr. Fulcher you dare ask : "But what do you do about someone who seems to want to persecute the Palestinians the way the Germans persecuted the Jews in the mid-1930s? "

It is very simple. You only gather around and do to them what you did to the Germans when they persecuted them. In your own words again:

" However, the revelation of what Hitler and the Germans had done to them in the concentration camps during the war was an immense shock which made it difficult to ignore their cries for a homeland where they could be masters of their own fate. For centuries the Jews had been persecuted by their host European countries, and for most of us this was a new fact that made us ashamed, I guess (I was born after the war, so I can only guess how people felt from reading history books). So we said: Why not give them their own country in an area they are interested in, like Palestine?"

you can see why we then say since we do not have helpers let us all die together, let them see that they cannot continue to live on our misery as nature ruled,  in the words of our great poet Alhassan Babajo who says:

If you kill ppl you are killing yourself
The more you harm others the more you harm yourself
It is a reflecting mirror and the reflection is yourself
The boomerang is boomeranging and the target is yourself

This also is confirmed by Danny Ben-tal, a young jewish soldier who spent time in Gaza Strip, in his submission he says:

"whenever a youth hurls a rock at me, I cannot but feel guilty, in the knowledge that were I in his situation I would also be throwing rocks." (the full text is coming in the next  post, I have commited it to memory when I was 14 yrs old)

And Mr Fulcher, though you appear to be fair but I can see you are trying to justify there positions by saying:

"The Jews have worked hard since they started to come here at the beginning of the 20th century. They value education, and becoming a doctor or lawyer is one of the most cherished goals of a young Jew. Since this is a democracy, their wealth and organization has paid off. They can be counted on to vote and to donate to candidates who they like, so they have great influence. If Muslims were to put the same efforts into developing their careers and fortunes, which is available to them in this country, they too could wield influence, but they have not done this yet."

Does this means if we become strong today we can do whatever we like only for others to say it is because we work hard?

You see this is one of the sole reasons why we don’t like those Western philosophies that prescribed for man the reason: SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST. We see the theory of evolution that nurtured that philosophy and sold it as scientic truth as an intellectual treason , the worst crime  ever commited to our intellect.

Afterall why is it that we Muslims did not do the same to the Jews and Christians   when we were on the lead? True to God the present empire of greater Israel is the worst thing that ever happened to mankind.

Read the following link in order to see how we come about islamic fundamentalism and the activities of the "Muslims terrorist" that never are:
http://www.davidduke.com/writings/howisraelcaused911.pdf


This will also answer the remaining questions lionger asked.

I will conclude this post with the following comments by The London Times, May 8, 1920. That was after the 1st world war, after germany has been tasked with payment of compensations of damages incured to the rest of the world:

" HAVE WE BEEN STRUGGLING THESE TRAGIC YEARS TO... EXTIRPATE THE SECRET ORGANISATION OF GERMAN WORLD DOMINION ONLY TO FIND BENEATH IT, ANOTHER MORE DANGEROUS BECAUSE MORE SECRET?

HAVE WE... ESCAPED A PAX GERMANICA ONLY TO FALL INTO A PAX JUDAECA?"

Here we are again, the ffl is a confession by one of the jewish soldiers, deployed to Gaza Strip in 1989. His name is Danny Ben-tal, it was culled from a south african magazine named "Sunday Star" on a new year day, that same 1989.  

PALESTINIAN STATE ALREADY EXISTS, LET THERE BE NO MISTAKE ABOUT THAT. IT EXISTS IN JABALIYA AND SHATI, IN THE MOSQUES AND IN THE MIND. JUDGING BY THE PROLIFERATION OF THE PALESTINIAN LIBERATION FLAGS IN SHATI, WE HAVE ALREADY BEGUN TO LOSE THE BATTLE FOR THIS SQUARE MMILE OF ERETZ ISREAL .

AT FIRST THE INTIFADAH OPENED OUR EYES, SHOCKED SOME OF US INTO REALISATION. BUT WHEN SO MANY ISRAELIS REFUSE TO RECOGNISE WHAT IS HAPPENING, WHAT GOOD WILL THAT DO?

A SORT OF STATUS QUO HAS BEEN REACHED. THEY HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE FROM THIS POINT ON: THEY ARE FIGHTING FOR THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THEIR NATIONAL IDENTITY, THEIR PRIDE.

FOR ALL THE FEAR WE INSPIRE IN THE LOCAL POPULACE, WE NO LONGER MAINTAIN ABSOLUTE CONTROL OVER THEIR LIVES. THE SYMPTOMS OF EVENTUAL DEFEAT ARE ALREADY OBVIOUS.

WE CATCH A ROCK-THROWING CHILD, PROBABLY NOT MORE THAN 12 YEARS OLD , IN HIS EYES I DETECT A CERTAIN PRIDE BEHIND THE FEAR OF WHAT IS ABOUT TO HIM.

SOLDIERS START SHOUTING: "HIT HIM, SMASH HIS HEAD IN, BREAK HIS ARMS SO HE WON’T THROW STONES AGAIN, TEACH HIM A LESSON."

THIS FROM SOLDIERS WHO ONLY DAYS BEFORE HAD BEEN LAW ABIDING AND GOD-FEARING CITIZENS OF THE STATE THAT WAS CREATED IN ORDER TO SHELTER JEWS FROM THE SAME SENTIMENTS.

WHENEVER A YOUTH HURLS A ROCK AT ME, I CANNOT BUT FEEL GUILTY, IN THE KNOWLEDGE THAT WERE I IN HIS SITUATION I WOULD ALSO BE THROWING ROCKS. BUT HOW CAN I, A SOLDIER TURN TO HIM AND SAY, 'AS A  JEW WHOSE PEOPLE HAVE KNOWN MUCH SUFFERING AT THE HAND OF OTHERS, I SYMPATHIZE WITH YOU'?

THESE CHILDREN ARE BEAUTIFUL, OUT OF THE LITTER AND STENCH THEY EMERGE, YOUNG JEWELS WITH CLEAR, DUST-COLOURED FACES AND WIDE, BRIGHT, INNOCENT-SEEMING EYES.

THE THREE-YEAR-OLDS WAVE AT US AS OUR PATROL PASSES. THE FIVE-YEAR-OLDS ALREADY UNDERSTAND THAT WE ARE THE ENEMY: GLEEFULLY, THEY SHOW US THE "V FOR VICTORY" SIGN, NOT REALLY APPERICIATING WHAT IT MEANS.

WE ALL KNOW WHAT TO DO, BEHAVING FIRMLY BUT YET POLITELY, AS THE SITUATION DEMANDS. AND SOMETIMES THE SITUATIONS DEMANDS US TO BE SONS-OF-BITCHES.

21 YEARS HAVE GONE BY SINCE THE TERRITORIES FELL UNDER ISRAELI CONTROL. A WHOLE GENERATION HAS GROWN UP THERE, YET THEY ARE NO CLOSER TO ACCEPTING US AS ANYTHING BUT A FOREIGN OCCUPAYING POWER.

AND THE JEWISH SETTLERS CONTINUE TO LIVE THE LIE, LOCKED IN THEIR GOVERNMENT SUBSDISED HOUSES, OUT OF EARSHOT OF THEIR RIOTING NEIGHBOURS.

THEY APPERECIATE THAT THERE SAFETY DEPENDS ON THE ARMY. EVERY EVENING THEY TRAVEL THE STRIP IN MINIBUSES, DISTRIBUTING HOT SOUP AND FOOD TO THE WEARY PATROLLING TROOPS. MOST SOLDIERS ACCEPT GRATEFULLY; OTHERS KID THEMSELVES THAT BY LOGICAL ARGUMENT THEY MAY PERSUADE THE SETTLERS THAT THEIR DAY OF JUDGEMENT WILL COME, AND THEY WILL RETURN TO ISRAEL, THEIR BANK ACCOUNTS SWELLED BEYOND RECOGNITION BY GOVERNMENT COMPENSATION.

THE FEW PEACE-SEEKING IDEALISTS AMONG US REFUSE THEIR 'CHARITY', NOT WILLING TO CONDONE THE OCCUPATION BY EVEN THE TINIEST OF SYMBOLIC ACTS, YET THERE ARE ISRAELI POLITICIANS WHO, FOR THEIR OWN CYNICAL ENDS, PERPETUATE THE MYTH THAT THE INTIFADAH IS TRIFLING.

THOSE WHO CLAIM THAT GRASSROOT POPULAR REVOLUTION CAN BE QUELLED, DELIBERATELY MISLEAD THE NATION. THE FACT IS THAT THERE IS NO MILITARY SOLUTION TO THIS POLITICAL PROBLEM.

ALMOST EVERY RESERVIST WHO HAS SPENT TIME IN THE TERRITORIES THIS YEAR HAS SEEN THAT.

AND IF WE STAY WE ARE GOING TO BE DRAGGED DEEPER INTO A QUAGMIRE AS WORLD OPINION IS SHIFTS FURTHER AGAINST US.

EVENTUALLY, A SOLUTION OF SORT WILL BE FORCED UPON US: WE WILL RETREAT WITH OUR TAIL BETWEEN OUR LEGS.

THE NEXT STAGE UTTER FRUSTRATION MAY WELL INVOLVE THE PALESTINIANS EXCHANGING THEIR ROCKS WITH LIVE AMUNITION, WE WILL HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO RETALIATE APPROPRIATELY. THAT DAY CAN ONLY BE DRAWING CLOSER, I FEAR THAT DAY.

 I have commited this confession to memory since when I was 14 yrs of age.






 

Well, Mr. Waziri, at least you are honest.  You are appartently a disciple of David Duke, as this is the second time you have quoted or referred to his writings.  (You did this at least one time earlier, on June 10, in the "I just dunno what you may say" thread.)  As you well know, Mr. Duke is a former Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan.  I am sure that you can find many anti-Israel and anti-Jew writings at his website, to which you provide us a link.  I am sure that he appreciates having you as a fan.  However, remember that if he takes over the world, he will shoot you right after he has shot all of the Jews.  The Klan is best known for their hatred of black people, as you know.  

This amazes me, Mr. Waziri.  Even al-Hamza hates the Klan, and he is in the habit of accusing those who dare to disagree with him of being members of the Klan.  Lionger, Dave Hill, and I will attest to this.

The writings of David Duke and the other Klan members are a great resource for the big Taliban and bin-Laden fans out there.  I suggest that you apply for membership, so that the Klan can say that it does not discriminate against black people, even though it hates them.

Is this why you hesitate to condemn Hitler, saying that he was no worse than the Israelis?  I agree that the Sharon government is out of control, and that the settlements are illegal, and that they are killing Palestinians every day.  But until the Israelis start gassing and murdering millions of Palestinians, they will be way behind Hitler in the competition for "Biggest Genocidal Killer of All Time."  Pol Pot, the Turks,  Joe Stalin, the US Army in our old West, and those nice folks in Rwanda are also in the running.  In numbers of deaths alone, however, Hitler has a big head start.

You ask why I have not paid a lot of attention to the fighting between Muslim and Jew in the past, but then seem to imply that this conflict is the ONLY think I should have studied.  You say, "one cannot boast understanding world politics, economics and legal theories without a good knowledge of Jewish-Muslim conflicts. True to God anything that happens in the world right from the days of the crusades have one to one relationship with Jewish-Muslims conflict. Some historians say 'History is nothing more than the story of Jews and Muslim'."  Well, the world just seems to revolve around you, does it not Mr. Waziri?  Who is being arrogant now?  Maybe what has happened in China, Russia, Europe and America in the past 500 years has been an unimportant footnote.  I will have to tell them to burn their history books and just get the one you seem to have read.  

You and your Klan buddies also seem to be under the illusion that you can destroy Israel.  Get over it.  The US will never allow that, and even if it did, the Germans would never allow it.  They are completely consumed with guilt over what they did to the Jews, and they are committed to the continued existence of Israel.  Just get over it and get on with your life.

You ask what I mean by working hard to get the same results as Jews have gotten in the US.  I mean that there are many Muslims in the US.  I work with several of them.  They are smart and, if they adopt a strong work ethic and build their careers and fortunes, they can influence US politics as well.  In a democracy, as in many other forms of government, an organized, smart and committed group can be very effective and get things done.  Do not whine about how unfair the world is to you, or has been to your people.  That will not be effective, and it will waste your energies.  Study, work hard, save money, and plan well.  I hope I do not sound like your parents.

This has nothing to do with survival of the fittest.  It has to do with self-improvement and progress.  Evolution is a theory in biology about how species change over many generations.  I am talking about you and your children.  Do not get confused.

And then you quote the London Times from the 1920s??  And you turn around and tell lionger to stop looking to the past?  The London Times was notoriously pro-Nazi until well into the 1930s.  They probably would have hired David Duke as a writer.

Nice quote from the Israeli soldier, by the way.  It is hopeful that some in Israel are sensitive to what is happening.  I wonder what would happen to a Palestinian fighter who expressed similar sympathies to the plight of Israelis killed by a terrorist explosion in a market.  Would we see his views published?

And how did al-Hamza stumble into this thread?  Is he lost again?  Someone please show him the door.

Have a nice weekend, everyone.  Jack

Hi
I thought I would point out that George Bush and Tony Blair look like they will soon be paying the price for their disgraceful attack on Iraq. The people of Britain are turning against Blair now and it looks likely that he will lose his position as Prime Minister. I understand many people in America are now seeing through George Bush's lies as well and the political tide is running away from him. I cannot imagine another US president would allow Sharon to behave the way he does to the Palestinians - but perhaps Jack can tell us more.

Another significant thing has happened as a result of the Iraq conflict. Many more Americans have become aware of the rest of the world and what the rest of the world thinks of America - and it's not good. Personally I can't take seriously a country that allows its citizens to freely go into a shop and buy handguns, rifles and walk about armed. No civilised country would allow such so, although America is mighty, it has a long way to go before it is a society that can tell other people what to do - which it tries to keep doing  even to the extent of organising the assasination of heads of state. Let us remember that the CIA hired a young Saddam Hussein to assasinate the leader of Iraq that America didn't like - and look where that brought us to.
Must go.

Hey Dave.  Good points about Blair and Bush.  Bush's approval rating for his foreign policy is down to 44 percent, while his overall rating is just above 50 percent.  This is down from the high 60s last year.  And 53 percent say that the Iraq war was not worth it, according to the same CBS/New York Times poll.  Blair is in trouble too, and your form of government makes it possible to remove him when he loses confidence.  In the US, we have a presidential election every four years, and the next one is in November, 2004.  I have no idea how Bush will do in that election, because a year is an eternity in American politics.  I think that one reason Bush is doing as badly as he is is due to the downturn in the economy.  If the economy improves next year, he will probably be re-elected.  However, his father lost the 1992 election to Clinton because the economy was in a downturn then.  As Clinton's campaign manager said, "it's the economy, stupid!"

As for my own view on the war, Iraq was not high on my list of countries to invade to fight terrorists.  If we want to go after them, why not try Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Iran, or even Pakistan first?  Iraq didn't have much to do with bin-Laden.  I think that Bush was just trying to finish what his father started, and he was mad that Saddam tried to have his father killed.  I think the world is much better off without the Baath Party, Sadam, and his sons, mind you; remember that Sadam killed more Muslims than anyone in history.  I just don't think they thought this thing through.

If Bush gets beat next year, will the Democrat be more balanced toward Israel?  Not much chance of that.  Remember that Sharon was building those stupid settlements all through the Clinton administration in the 1990s.  Remember that the Democratic Party has more Jewish participation than the Republican Party, and, although it is probably hard to believe, Bush has been harder on Sharon than Clinton ever was.  Bush is trying to do something about the problem in his own way, I think, by making the whole area a little safer for the Israelis, or at least that is his plan.  If Israel feels like they won't be blown up by terrorists, maybe they will be more willing to give the occupied territories back to the Palestinians.

It is an interesting point you make, Dave, about guns.  Remember that when the British still ran things here, before 1776, the army would confiscate guns from the people here, and that was resented.  I do not own a gun myself, never even shot a gun, but having gone throught the anti-war movement of the 1960s and 1970s, I am not sure it is such a good idea that only the police and the army have guns.  I do not trust authority, and I think that power should be in the hands of the people, not the police.  The downside, of course, is that guns are dangerous.  If we had a gun in the house, my wife would probably have shot me by now.  

If I had my way, handguns would be banned, but everyone could have a rifle.  Something like that.  No Uzis.  But I think that it is a tribute to our civilization that we have so many guns but no rebellions.  Just knuckleheads in Texas getting drunk and shooting up the family car.

And what civilized country spells it "civilised?"  Get real.  Jack  

          BISMILLAHIRAHMANURAHEEM
(IN THE NAME OF THE MOST MERCIFUL AND THE MOST BENEFICIENT)        

                "YA AYYO HALLA ZEENA AMANULA TATTA KHAY ZUL YAHUDO WANNASARA AULIYA'ABA'DOHUM AULIYA'A BA'DI WA MUN YA'A WALLAHUM MIN KUM FA IYYAHO MIN HUM INNALAHA LA YAHDIL QAUMAZZALIMEEN".

                "OH YOU WHO BELIEVE ! TAKE NOT THE JEWS AND THE CHRISTIANS AS AULIYA(protectors or guardians), THEY ARE BUT AULIYA TO ONE ANOTHER. AND IF ANY AMONGST YOU TAKES THEM AS AULIYA THEN SURELY HE IS ONE OF THEM. VERILY ALLAH GUIDES NOT THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE ZALIMUN (opressors) AL-MAIDAH 51

                    jack, doesnt it surprise you? The Qur'an has remained unchanged since it was brought down over 1400yrs ago. The jews then were most ill-treated amongst the christian europe. They werent even allowed to live within city limits, they were treated as inferior species, till one of your popes decided to forgive them for killing (axtaghfurullah) Jesus (which we dont believe) now, Pope was given the power to forgive the killer of "God" (we dont believe Jesus/Isah alaihissalam to be God). Islam doesnt believe in inheritence sins, which the christians do.

                        back to the point, Jews and Christians were arch-enemies back then.  Inspite of that Allah (S.W.T) says in the Book that the christians and the jews are friends only to one another, and today what do we see?

the US is all christian and plays to the tunes of jews (i piety americans).

and i thought u said the klan isnt killin people now? Oh man, jack am so confused, have you been drinking too much lately? cos you told us this time around that they are ready to kill.

then again jack.
you want the US to attack other muslim countries? i dont know of Pakistan or Sudan or Syria, but just send in one soldier to conquer Saudi and you'll see the massacre you'll face.
                     Its part of our History. Mulims have always been the most fearless fighters (alhamdulillah) for e.g Omar Mukhtar was from libya and he gave hell to the italians. His men used to tie thier legs in the battle ground. thier slogan was "FIGHT TILL DEATH, NO RETREAT"! with rifles the brave men fought an enemy that carried machine guns, drove tanks and flew planes.
                    Then we had a general (i dont remember his name) that conqured cyprus, cyprus is an island and the only way to reach it is by boats. When they reached cyprus, the General asked for the boats to be burnt. When a soldier asked why, The Generals reply was "WE EITHER TAKE THE PLACE OR WE FACE MATYRDOM".
                     As a british historian put it "DICIPLINE AND THE LOVE FOR HEAVEN IS WHAT MAKES THE MUSLIMS LEATHAL".
               I am sure you know Changhis Khan, the mongolian that conqured 3/4 of the civilised world mass. When he went to Afghanistan, he climeb the highest mountain that his eye could see, on the summit he went on his knees and said "OH GOD OF THE AFGHANS, ALLOW ME TO CONQURE THIS LAND, I PROMISE I WILL LEAVE IMMEDIATELY I DEFEAT THEM". He knew from the history of Afghanistan, what they did to thier oppressors, and America is nothing compared to the army of chenghis khan.
                  After the fall of india to the british (thanks to the colaberation of the hindus) Britain sent in an army of 15,000 well trained men, (that had served by fighting the Mongolian rulers of india) Only one came back, and that too only because the Afghans sent him as a messenger, the message was "you try to fight us, and take over our lands, we'll finish you mercilessly" there after the british never tried again, though they boasted of the best army of that time.
                 You have the red-army in recent history and i need not tell you of what they had to face there. As one of thier generals said b4 the invasion of afghanistan by the US "it isnt safe to go in there, we have experienced them, and believe me we couldnt count the bodies of our men we left there"

             Agreed, britain has very sucessfully devided us, they have drawn boundries for us, so that we have seperate identities as different nationals. But the days are not far when we'll unite again, Shia Sunni, all together for the kill. and the people to unite us would ironically be the same people that dis-integrated us. Your hatred and lust for wealth would be your ultimate downfall.
           
and hey jack do you know something? You said israel will never end? you think so? think again!
                there's a Hadith (saying of the prophet) that "THE JEWS WILL COME AGAin TO SETLLE IN PALESTINE, THEY WILL BE SUCCESSFUL FOR MANY YEARS, BUT THEY WILL ULTIMATELY BE DRIVEN AWAY" come to think of it, more than 1400yrs ago someone said they will come, and they did, they have stayed so many years and sucessfully killed so many, destroyed lives of so many people and whole generations. every muslim is aware of what israel does and how the US helps. with the kind of madness you portrayed in your last post, you'd surely be uniting us quite early.

               b4 i stop writing jack, i just want you to know, unlike you people, we muslims and to some extent jews, dont change our books and history to suite our tastes, we muslims and the jews are yet to declare alchohol as something not forbidden by God. :),
                 SO MY DEAR FOLKS OF KANO-ONLINE, HAVE I PROVEN THAT JACK IS AGAINST ISLAM? NOT AGAINST THE STONNING OF AMINA LAWAL? I GUESS I HAVE.

DAVE.... EXCELENT POST

its better to kill your enemy once and for all, than to degrade him and insult him and his family for decades.
Israel has done much worse than what hitler did.

if d jews have been persecuted thru out history from d egyptians to d germans what reason wd there be? i mean y always d jews?

Hi Jack

"Civlised" is an word in the English language and the English spell it "civilised" along with most of the English-speaking  world except America which keeps putting zeds (or zees,as you call them) into English words in place of the original esses. Language is about communication, however, and not spelling so I won't labour the point (or labor the point, as Americans might put it).

In UK we have a law against the carrying of offensive weapons - as has most of Europe and much of the civilised world. This includes not only guns but knives and any other implement that might be judged to in someone's possession for offensive us. Such a law would probably save the lives of about 2000 Americans each year but perhaps that's not important.  But I repeat I cannot take America seriously until it does something about this. In the meantime there are more people shot dead in any one large American city in any year than there are in the whole of the Uk.
Robert Burns - Scotlands national poet - said " I wish some pow'r the giftie'd gie us tae see oorsels as ithers see us." To translate that out of Scots dialect into English it means it would be very useful and instructive to most of us if we were aware of what other people thought of us rather than just deluding ourselves. More on this anent America and its profile in the world abroad tomorrow as I'm falling asleep at this screen.

Dave

HEY DAVE!  WAKE UP!!  It's only 5:30 PM here in California.  Time to party.  I don't know why the rest of the English speaking world uses S when we use Z.  I remember it was a topic in one of my literature classes in college (well into the last century), but I forget what was said.  Something about how the Germans here influenced spelling.  The American language is a conglomeration of English, German, some French, and none of it spelled especially well.  Also, when Samuel Johnson wrote his dictionary it was a lot different than the one written by Noah Webster, the one used here more.  This business of spelling things correctly wasn't very important until about the beginning of the 20th century.  Now my spell check on my MS Word program automatically changes "rationalise" to "rationalize."  Pretty soon none of this will matter.

As for guns, I live near Oakland so am aware that handguns kill.  All of life is a tradeoff, however, so it is not enough to say that you have fewer gun deaths.  What do you give up for that added safety?  If the Scots were armed to the teeth, they'd be able to break away from England tomorrow.  As it is, all the English have to do is send a few soldiers into every town, and your rebellion would be over.  I'd like the world to be one where we could resolve these changes through discussion and polite meetings, but nothing gets something done quickly like violence.  Look at how the world has changed since the 9/11 incident.  I know that what I am saying is cynical, and I really don't know how much of it I really believe, but casual empiricism should tell you that people without the guns get pushed around by people with the guns.  We needed to use guns to get the English to leave America, and so did the Canadians.  No amount of civilised (I spelled it like that just for you, Dave) talk and persuasion would have worked.  That is why they wanted us to turn in our guns.  They understood power.

On the other hand, stay out of certain parts of Oakland after dark.  This is why I say that we should limit handgun ownership, because they're too easy to take out of the drawer and shoot someone.  Go back to sleep.  Jack

So Mr. Fulcher , now I get the logic, I made reference to David Duke twice and that made me his disciple.

Now since you are making reference to my  post of june 10, I will only lie in the wait for you to make another reference to another post of mine again. Then I will conclude that you are my disciple. How do you like that?


Mr. Fulcher, do not be a defeated sore. You read David Duke, when you see he is telling the truth you believe him. When you see he is not telling the truth you disprove him. This is the tradition in any intellectual debate, so do not talk of David Duke using Waziri. David Duke knows very well, perhaps more than you do,  that we can match him wit by wit, edge of brain by edge of brain. All we say is let us all learn to be fair to one another. When a truth is told we say it is the truth. I think this will make us appear to be more civilised.

Hear Dukes speaking:

"every terrorist involved in the September attacks, which caused the death of thousands of Americans on September 11, should suffer the ultimate punishment for his crime. No person or nation that commits terrorism against America should escape punishment. But now I am going to make a statement that may well shock you.
 
If you agree that those who commit terrorist acts against America should be punished, then America should put Israel at the top of our hit list; for in this article, I will prove that Israel has committed deliberate acts of murderous terrorism against America and has responsibility for the carnage of September 11, 2001. I will show that Israel has committed more continuing terrorism in the last half century than any other nation on earth. Then, I will expose Israel?s record of terrorism and treachery against the United States of America. Finally, I will show the shocking facts proving that Israel's extremist government, under the leadership of mass-murderer Ariel Sharon, treacherously abetted the 9-11 catastrophe. Israel?s acts of terrorism and treachery against America have not only gone unpunished, but have been rewarded by politicians who have treasonously betrayed the United States."

Yes, he says he would prove, so do not worry. Listen to him. If he proves... we  are all waiting for your disprove here.


And it appears like you do not know that theory of evolution long ago left the areas of biology only to start commenting on social sciences? Read your books thoroughly. You will see Social Darwinism which brought about the reason: Survival of the fittest.

So you dare mention big time killers like Joe Stalin and Pol Pot. Go and find out now who armed them with that philosophy which demanded those killings.

You will see that they were the Jews like Karl Marx who wrote the theories and the leaders of the Russians Bolshevik Revolution who actualized it .

So America is yet to see the Jews gassing the Palestinians. Were you not the one  who said:

"But what do you do about someone who seems to want to persecute the Palestinians the way the Germans persecuted the Jews in the mid-1930s? "

or the masacre of Sabra and Shatilla is not enough a proof?

You the Americans, you keep shooting us on the knees curbing or progress only to reiterate, saying it is we who are not progressive in thought.

Let you know that it is a tide which sooner or later will turn against you. Mhm... I hear Mr. David here speaking.

This is only our fervent plea:

In the olden times every leader worked for the good of his own nation alone. The others were considered adversaries, or subjects of exploitation. There was no regard to any value but that of superiority and personal glory. For the sake of this, many morals, ideals and values were wasted; many unethical means were justified; many uncounted souls were made to perish. Lies, deceit, treachery, cruelty reigned as the signs of sagacity and the proof of greatness. Today, this view needs to be changed from its very source. Today, the greatness of a civilized leader ought to be measured by the universality of his vision and his sense of responsibility towards all humankind. The developed world and the Third World are but one family. Each human being bears responsibility towards it by the degree of what he has obtained of knowledge, wisdom, and civilization. I would not be exceeding the limits of my duty if I told thom in the name of the Third World: Be not spectators to our miseries. You have to play therein a noble role befitting your status. From your position of superiority you are responsible for any misdirection of animal, or plant, to say nothing of Man, in any of the four corners of the world. We have had enough of words. Now is the time for action. It is time to end the age of brigands and usurers. We are in the age of leaders responsible for the whole globe. Save the enslaved in the Africa? Save the famished in Africa! Save the Palestinians from the bullets and the torture! Nay, save the Israelis from profaning their great spiritual heritage! Save the ones in debt from the rigid laws of economy! Draw their attention to the fact that their responsibility to Mankind should precede their commitment to the laws of a science that Time has perhaps overtaken.

Hey Jack, I just cant understand your last post about Guns and whatever by I guest you re talking to Dave..but come clear of this issue.
Are you seriously saying the occupation of Palestine by Israel and the double standard of American policy is right? if yes then you aint the type of person I think you are.
In my thinking I dont think suicide bombing is good but what do you expect the palestinians to do when they have no weapons. I am a supporter of two state not because I think israel cannot be destroyed...America will not allow it nor will Germany...are those name the synonym of GOD...I wonder!
Let there be two state for now so that the bloodshed could stop.

I hate to tell you that america is a hypocrite and the most wicked people on earth...sometimes I smile when I remember Sept 11... The attack a country for one reason and refrain from doing so by another.
Let me remind you of history. Genghis Khan and his son Hulagu conquared muslims only to be conquered by Islam. Allah set them against themselves and they didnt enjoy their conquest.
That is what is happening to America and Britain now. It will happen to Israel too sooner or later.

Hi Eskimo!  Nice to hear from you.  

I cannot understand how you might think that I support the occupation by Israel.  I think I write pretty clearly (even though my spelling is attrocious, right Dave?).  I think that I have said elsewhere on this board that I think what Israel is doing is wrong, and that our support is one-sided.  I've even tried to explain why our support is as biased as it is.  Also remember that, during the Cold War, the Arabs and Egyptians sided with the Soviets, so we appreciated having a democracy like Israel that sided with us in the Middle East.

To be clear, I think that the occupied territories should be returned and that the Palestinians should be given aid to help it build a state.  I do not, however, think that walking into a market, wrapped in dynamite, and blowing yourself and others up is in any way defensible or even understandable.  I know the argument that they're desperate and have no other way, but this is nonsense.  To blow up children and grandmothers only lowers them to the level of their tormentors, and makes them appear as monsters.

Note that the Irish never used suicide bombers.  They just used guns and muscle.  The Japanese used suicides toward the end of the war, but this was not a general policy.  For some reason, the Muslims make heroes of these kids who kill themselves.  This is obscene and makes the Muslims look irrational.

Do you believe that, once the Palestinians are given their state, the Arabs will give up on their dream of destroying Israel?  Everyone on this board who believes this raise your hand.  (Only one hand, al-Hamza!)  When Arafat talks to Americans, he says that all they want is their state, and they will leave Israel in peace.  When he talks to the Palestinians, he calls for the destruction of Israel.  So this will be a continuing problem, and is one reason Israel is hesitant to remove the settlements or hand over the land that they want.  We need a change of heart on both sides, and the old war horses need to die.  Sharon is a monster who needs to go, and I think that the people in our own State Department understand this.  Note, however, that whenever there are talks or some movement toward a settlement of the issue, the bombers come out of the woodwork and blow up another cafe.    

I agree that America is a hypocrite, but this is no different than any other great power in history.  We've preferred the stability of the dictatorships, like the royal family Saudi Arabia, the Shaw of Iran, or Sadam in Iraq, than the uncertainty of democracy.  This has lead to some bad results.  I think that Americans are starting to learn this, and maybe we can change this in the future.

Glad you're back, Eskimo.  Your contributions are valuable here.  Jack

yes jack, you are right.
i wish for nothing less than complete withdrawal of the jews by the people who put them there.
i cant wait to see all those palestinians given back thier homes, thier lands from which they were driven.
just the same way i would want to see you return to your home when you are driven by an occupational army.

you see it as absurd to commit suicide attacks?
when you are left with no choice, your houses bombed, your leaders tortured, your business restricted. Your father killed in front of you, your aunt giving birth in front of jewish soldiers that wont allow her to a hospital through the checkpoints, and dies from bleeding (which wasnt necessary) or when your 12year old brother gets killed for stoning the tanks that wouldnt allow normal life to continue, or when a bakery next door was attacked under the illusion that it was a bomb assembling factory, thereby causing hardship cos no food would be available then, seeing your mother and father fight because there's no job to earn money under the occupational forces. Or your graduate brother/sister can find no job. What would you do? if you knew there was no end to it, because a country like the US supports israel and no one comes to the help of the palestinians? when you know that those who thought that they could have better lives in nieghbouring countries where treated as second class citizens, not given jobs and no nationality? or when you know that even they are not safe from the claws of the satan, e.g 1983 massacre by ariel sharon and donald rumsfield, and the today attack of syria by israel. what would you do?

look jack, even a militant muslim (which you would say i am) am against suicide attacks including sept 11, but these people as President Musharraf said in his UN speach dec2001 "are left with no choice" you yourself are the ones that breeded them and you must face the tune now.

lemme give you a small example.
I have a friend that is palestini, b4 israel came, his grandfather was the emir (king) of an important city now under israel, and a city which israel shows as its own on world maps. today he's a second class citizen in a nieghbouring country, he is suffering to make ends meet. No money, he's a graduate in civil engineering, not a diploma holder, and has vast knowledge in computers, his education brought the family under $5000 debt, for you, thats chicken change but believe me for many people that's hell lot of money, as an engineer now he's earning less than $200 dollars a month and has to take care of a family of 6, including a mother, and educating his younger brothers, how can he do that in $200???  and believe me, this guy am telling you about is probably living a lavish life compared to the palestinians in israel control. His 12year old brother will grow up knowing if isarael hadnt been there, he'd have a much better life. May God help him, i love him as much as i would have my own junior if i had one.
so hands down, the suicides are your own products.
and you'll continue to face them

no compromise, complete withdrawal, nothing less..

How can there two states and peace when Israel is still creating more suicide bomber from Palestines with its constant missile attacks on the so called targets and recently is building a dividin wall in the palestinians land while US, EU and UN are saying nothing!
Jack you are like any human being - peace lover- and you will not close your eyes to justice even if its against you.
cant you Americans with your so called "government of the people" do something about it.
the palestines want peace they are tired of the killings!!!

Lol..Jack can speak for himself but judging by your responses I can't say that u guys are actually reading what he is saying.
Quick question: many of you take this issue very personally. Would this be the case if the palestinians were not muslims?

Al Hamza

Peace (which I meant to say last night).
I agree with every word of your post today - and there was no abuse in it. I suspect Jack agrees with most of it as well.
I have just watched BBC Panorama's expose of Guantamamo Bay. It would be good to have it shown worldwide. It puts US into the same league as the Nazis. If I was an American I would be dying of shame, but I don't suppose it will be shown in America. In Nigeria I knew and worked with Americans in education and from the USIS in Kano and for a while I managed the affairs of a soul band from Columbus, Ohio who got stranded penniless in Kano (Horrizzon USA - does anyone remember them?). They were pretty ordinary and decent people, most Americans. They must be getting seriously deceived by their government if they don't know what the US is doing and how hated it is becoming across the world and even in Europe now. The world is entering a very dangerous period and the clumsy US is the major danger to all of us. God know what Israel's attack on Syria is going to lead to.
Lionger - I am not a muslim but I weep for Palestine.

lioger,
quick question, where in the muslim world are the christians bieng tortured? especially to the extent of bieng forced to pick up guns and fight?

the Nedherlands and australians helped east timors with guns and bombs to fight who? thier muslim controllers (indonesians right)

an australian priest and his two sons were killed by a hindu mob in india some 2yrs ago, the starter of the mob that resulted in the death of those three innocents was executed recently, how about the the hindu's that caused the destruction of Baber's Mosque? an ancient Mosque which held great respect from the indian muslims, plus the deaths of thousands of muslims in 1991 (the year i guess it was brought down) and the recent 2,000 deaths of muslims in gujrat (same state, official figures) no one caught, no one executed. Which country came to the help of these muslims except Pakistan? So why shouldnt anyone concerned with humanity not be concerned? and especially Muslims? why shouldnt we be emmotional about these things?

all around


1)Xen chiang province china, who's forced to drink alcohol and consume pig flesh? Muslims.

2) Gujrat india, which indians are segregated and thier area called "Pakistan" and burnt alive frequently by politicians to win elections? Muslims.

3) Kashmir india, which people have been refused thier rightful choice to be independant or join Pakistan? 90,000 so far killed, the rest tortured daily, countless rapes daily, buildings destroyed, farm area ravaged? Muslims.

4) Palestine, that one is so common knowledge no need to talk of it, Muslims.

5) Chechenya, Russia control, the whole way of life completely ravaged, who faced it ? Muslims

6) Philipnie south islands, who face war games of Philipines and the US? Muslims

want more?

al hamza,

Quotequick question, where in the muslim world are the christians bieng tortured? especially to the extent of bieng forced to pick up guns and fight?

Do u really want me to give a blunt answer? It could create an uproar. That should be enough to hint the answer, but I may still give it in plain terms regardless of the consequences since we have decided to throw objectivity out the window.
And btw, Christians should and would not (except for those ppl in northern Ireland) pick up weapons to fight against their oppressors, cuz that is not the way of Christ. The Bible says that if we are slapped on one cheek, turn the other also.

QuoteChristians should and would not (except for those ppl in northern Ireland) pick up weapons to fight against their oppressors, cuz that is not the way of Christ. The Bible says that if we are slapped on one cheek, turn the other also.  

Yes Lionger you are damn right! and your opinion would nt cause any uproar.
christian all over the world do not take weapons against their oppressors...
EXCEPT for those in northern Ireland as you said.
also EXCEPT in Basque region of Spain
EXCEPT in East Timor of Indonesia
EXCEPT in Southern Sudan
EXCEPT...
May be where they are the oppressors places like Philiphine and Chechnya.
Most of the time they are the big bullies US to Afghanistan and Iraq.
I guess you can only turn the other cheek if you are slapped already..."but when you are not you should strike first"...do not rise and take arms against your oppressor but rather be the oppressor.
That is the rule.

Hi Eskimo, thanks for your response. ?Sorry if I hurt u in any way. Note that I also said Christians 'should' not take up arms to kill their oppressors. I don't know whether Islam has this idea of 'passive resistance' too. In all the examples you cited; and in the one i cited, this is the rule: politics. Unlike some of us, I can see that some of these conflicts are actually being spurred by politics and religion has just become the fuel for the fire. That is the difference!!

Since you actually take offense to me somewhat, please define the terms 'christian world' and 'muslim world' i.e. tell me what countries these worlds consist of.

I did nt know I sounded that bitter. No I aint hurt by your opinion or what you say after that all is your opinion.
I am sorry for sounding bitter.

KNOW WHAT: Never hesitate to say anything if it is not abusive...who cares if somebody doesnt like it

It is difficult nowadays to define what Muslim World and its  Christian counterpart is..most of those countries occupied by muslim do not follow muslim law as should be...I guess the counter is more "rotten" religion wise.

But roughly we can call them muslim or christian depending on those living in the country (predominantly)

If Palestine were not Muslim I wouldnt have bother much about their plight and America and western world wouldnt have acted the way the do now, nor would you act in the way you do too.

I did nt know I sounded that bitter. No I aint hurt by your opinion or what you say after that all is your opinion.
I am sorry for sounding bitter.

KNOW WHAT: Never hesitate to say anything if it is not abusive...who cares if somebody doesnt like it

It is difficult nowadays to define what Muslim World and its  Christian counterpart is..most of those countries occupied by muslim do not follow muslim law as should be...I guess the counter is more "rotten" religion wise.

But roughly we can call them muslim or christian depending on those living in the country (predominantly)

If Palestine where not Muslim I wouldnt have bother much about their plight and America and western world wouldnt have acted the way the do now, nor would you act in the way you do too.

I did nt know I sounded that bitter. No I aint hurt by your opinion or what you say after that all is your opinion.
I am sorry for sounding bitter.

KNOW WHAT: Never hesitate to say anything if it is not abusive...who cares if somebody doesnt like it

It is difficult nowadays to define what Muslim World and its  Christian counterpart..most of those countries occupied by muslim do not follow muslim law as should be...I guess the counterpart is more "rotten" religion wise.

But roughly we can call them muslim or christian depending on those living in the country (predominantly)

If Palestine were not Muslim I wouldnt have bother much about their plight and America and western world wouldnt have acted the way the do now, nor would you act in the way you do too.

I did nt know I sounded that bitter. No I aint hurt by your opinion or what you say after that all is your opinion.
I am sorry for sounding bitter.

KNOW WHAT: Never hesitate to say anything if it is not abusive...who cares if somebody doesnt like it

It is difficult nowadays to define what Muslim World and its  Christian counterpart..most of those countries occupied by muslim do not follow muslim law as should be...I guess the counterpart is more "rotten" religion wise.

But roughly we can call them muslim or christian depending on those living in the country (predominantly)

If Palestine were not Muslim I wouldnt have bother much about their plight and America and western world wouldnt have acted the way the do now, nor would you act in the way you do too.

You know, Eskimo, I respect you and your opinions, and always look forward to your posts, but I need to point one thing out to you before I go to work.  You suggest that the West only cares about the plight of Christians and the Muslim world only cares about Muslims.  I think that what the US did in Bosnia in the 1990s shows that you are wrong about the West.  We intervened in that conflict and saved a lot of Muslims from being killed by the Christians there.  We did this, not for oil or markets for any other gain, but because it was the right thing to do.  Like removing Sadam, something you all should have been trying to do.  I agree that most of what we have done, like supporting the Saudi royal family, is for our own gain and is short-sighted, but this is true of all countries.  It's just more visible with us because we're the big boys on the block and can throw our weight around more.  But please don't forget Bosnia.  Jack

I posted something here this morning, and the computer says that I posted something (it says that I was the last poster), but the post is nowhere to be seen.  Actually, in the recap of all the posts in this thread I see below, it is listed.  Looks like some sort of bug in the system.  I'll try again:

You know, Eskimo, I respect you and your opinions, and always look forward to your posts, but I need to point one thing out to you before I go to work.  You suggest that the West only cares about the plight of Christians and the Muslim world only cares about Muslims.  I think that what the US did in Bosnia in the 1990s shows that you are wrong about the West.  We intervened in that conflict and saved a lot of Muslims from being killed by the Christians there.  We did this, not for oil or markets for any other gain, but because it was the right thing to do.  Like removing Sadam, something you all should have been trying to do.  I agree that most of what we have done, like supporting the Saudi royal family, is for our own gain and is short-sighted, but this is true of all countries.  It's just more visible with us because we're the big boys on the block and can throw our weight around more.  But please don't forget Bosnia.  Jack

okay okay   Bosnia :D

yeah right,

i knew someone would bring up the bosnia issue on the table. the americans were asked by the european union to stop the fight in bosnia, if they would really care so much about muslims why is it that virtually all the wars after vietnam have been carried out against muslim nations??? (except some actions in nicaragua and panama) if the us loves moslims so much then why are they blocking (recently, this week) un resolutions on israel in the security council????

you better stop hypocrism, face the truth america is PRO ISRAEL, and some christian union or whatever which gave funding to george bush are 100% solidary to israel. too bad, but the us is just fucked up in lies and hypocrism.

Quotebut the us is just fucked up in lies and hypocrism.

D only thing that caught mah eyes was ur avator....Its so beautiful but errrr......d swearin part :-/ I mean from d avator it shows pureeee cleanliness but wat came from ur mouff nah abomination. (that was funni

sorry girl, i did not notice that cussword slippin into my reply,  but anyway, the sin of the tongue.....

What about Kosovo?

I've opposed many of the US' post Sept. 11 actions on this forum, but the fact still remains that many of us are WAY OFF ?and naive in thinking that the U.S. is anti-Islam. We are continually guilty of mixing politics with religion. In addition to Bosnia, I will also mention Kosovo, which I've already mentioned many times on this forum as another balancing argument. This is a case where the US once again bypassed the UN and attacked Serbia thru NATO. What will many of us say to that? Coming up with all sorts of excuses is ridiculous and smacks of hypocrisy: Saddam Hussein has been persecuting the majority shias in Iraq for so many years, but when the U.S.-U.K. coalition moved in unjustly, we all cry 'infidel', great satan, anti-Islam, ?etc. Is this a balanced view?

I asked Eskimo to define what the terms 'christian world' and 'muslim world' cuz this is the crux of the problem. In this area you finely defined as the muslim world, religious tolerance is greatly restricted, and in cases of some countries like Saudi Arabia, hardly existent. Persecution against Hindus, shias, christians and bah'ai is rampant. I say this based on the records of UN NGOs and Amnesty International, and I dare any of you to challenge their objectivity, cuz they do not spare the West and in particular the U.S.

The point is, we should not become hypocrites by insinuating that 'muslims' like Saddam are justified in persecuting others but outsiders are not. Fatwas are pronounced on ppl who defame islam in their writings, like Salman Rushdie and Isioma Daniel. But where is the fatwa declaration against those that killed thousands of innocents on Sept. 11 and brought Islam into disrepute, and gave the U.S. a good excuse to persecute your muslim brethren even more? ?As a final argument: during the cold war, the survival of humanity prevailed over the rivalry b/w nuclear superpowers U.S and USSR such that nuclear weapons were never used. If nuclear weapons should ever fall in the hands of 'resisitance organizations' like the Hamas, and Alquaeda, would they also be held back by the appeal of humanity, or spurred to carry out God's will against the great Satan and Israel?

Like I said b4 in my first post on this thread, we must condemn evil wherever we see it, even in our own backyard. And we must aknowledge good wherever we see it, ?even if it comes from the 'anti-islamic' west, christians, or the Jews. Anything short of that is partiality, and only contributes to the problems of today's world.

[color=000033]look, bosnia, kosovo and any other missions in that balcan region are a result of the bosnia peacekeeping mission. like you said we should stop hyprocricy and start speaking the truth. the truth is that bush is playing the religion card very well, because now that hes in trouble in iraq, hes asking muslim nations like pakistan or syria for military or financial aid. if the us wants to help muslim soo bad so how comes that they blocked and are blocking any resolutions against israel???

Saddam: i think we all agree that saddam was or is not a religious man. the situation in iraq shows that even the shias dont accept any government put in place by the us. thats another fact that the us completely underestimated.

and then you have to stop judging islam by all these hundreds of fatwas. many of the ones calling out fatwas do it more in political interest than because of religious matters. and none of the ones calling out fatwas can act as THE representative of islam, because today there are no khalifas that are accecpted by all the muslims, there are millions of cheicks following different tariqas, so you really dont bring up any good argument for me.

your definition of the muslim world includes only arab nations, but today the majority of muslims are non arab. tolerance of christians and jews was granted since the beginning, but wars like the cruisades or the israel issue made that the tolerance decreased in the middle east. but outside of those areas, christians and jews live in harmony with the muslims. take a look on africa and youll find out.

what america and americans still dont understand is that by treating terrorists as muslims or muslims as terrorists they provoce more tension and hostilities.  [/color]

Quote
face the truth america is PRO ISRAEL, and some christian union or whatever which gave funding to george bush are 100% solidary to israel. too bad, but the us is just fucked up in lies and hypocrism.

Nobody doubts that and Ameriva is not hiding that either!

ANTI-ISLAM is America...from the mouth of America top ranking Army officer...a General...

and the way against Saddam Hussein and Afghanistan...according to him....is in cause of God...his God not Allah the muslim god...

are you stillm in doubt that America is Anti Islam????

Quote
face the truth america is PRO ISRAEL, and some christian union or whatever which gave funding to george bush are 100% solidary to israel. too bad, but the us is just fucked up in lies and hypocrism.

Nobody doubts that and Ameriva is not hiding that either!

ANTI-ISLAM is America...from the mouth of America top ranking Army officer...a General...

and the way against Saddam Hussein and Afghanistan...according to him....is in cause of God...his God not Allah the muslim god...

are you still in doubt that America is Anti Islam????

These are interesting posts.  I don't believe that America is anti-Islam or anti-Muslim, no matter what this idiot general said.  He is a member of a very fundamentalist church, a fringe group that does not speak for all Christians.  We all have problems with fundamentalists in our countries, and they all make us look intolerant and judgemental.  If you look at our newspapers, you will see that they are all making fun of this sick crackpot, so please do not judge us by what he says.  I think that the Pentagon will try to sit on him and you won't see him saying much more, at least while he is in uniform.  He can say whatever he wants out of uniform, and this is because we value free speech.

If you watched the actions of the government after the 9/11 attacks, it was clear that they were not trying to blame all Muslims for this.  For instance, the big memorial service at the National Cathedral in Washington included a Christian, a Jew, and a Muslim cleric as speakers.  They all spoke of tolerance, forgiveness, and peace, which is the underlying message of all these religions.

I don't think the average guy in America is anti-Muslim, but I will say that there are many that are just intolerant of different people.  We're very xenophobic, but probably not more than most other countries.  If you really want to see racism, just go to Japan, for instance.  Or China, Russia, or northern Europe.  

We are just very protective of certain things.  For instance, if the Taliban were to take over, if they started to smash TV sets like they did in Kabul, Americans would kill them all.  Not because they are Muslims, but because we live on TV.  

Muslims are a fast growing sector here, and they are a valuable part of our economy and society.  We have had some problems since 9/11 with mosques being vandalized, but for the most part people understand that Muslims here did not support 9/11.  What hurt, however, was the scenes of people in Egypt and Pakistan dancing in the streets when those people were killed.  I'm sure the Palestinians lost a lot of support here when they did the same thing.  And then when some Muslims kept suggesting that this was not the work of al- Queda or bin Laden, but was some sort of Israeli plot, that was amazing.  I hope that these sorts of silly theories, spread by the Muslim version of our general, mentioned above, have been put to rest.

Rambling as usual.  Bye for now.  Jack  

You know what I respect freedom of speech and peoples opinion. I always say mine no matter what. But i cannot put on any conclusion cause conclusions are offensive to some people.
I hate just arbitrary conclusions...silly me...who cares what I hate..

Okay but to the issue...Jack I wonder if Palestinians will get any support from America even if they did not jubilate.

Will you say all those endless vetos are as a result of that jubilations.

Even those before sept 11?

An average American may be nice person...life loving...but the policy of the american Govt is the center of the attack...

And an average american is the most misinformed about his country's foreing policy...says one paper ...I cant remember where..but I just believe they were right.

Jack?

You know what I respect freedom of speech and peoples opinion. I always say mine no matter what. But i cannot put on any conclusion cause conclusions are offensive to some people.
I hate just arbitrary conclusions...silly me...who cares what I hate..

Okay but to the issue...Jack I wonder if Palestinians will get any support from America even if they did not jubilate.

Will you say all those endless vetos are as a result of that jubilations.

Even those before sept 11?

An average American may be nice person...life loving...but the policy of the american Govt is the center of the attack...

And an average american is the most misinformed about his country's foreing policy...says one paper ...I cant remember where..but I just believe they were right.

Jack?

You're right, Eskimo, that the Palestinians don't get an even break from our government.  Probably the most important reason is that the Palestinians don't control much economic or voting power in the US.  Jews came here in the first half of the last century and built businesses and generally worked hard to become an important part of the society.  Since we're a democracy, they have a large influence over who wins elections and what decisions the government makes.  They don't run the government or own the banks, as some people allege, but they do have an important influence.  By comparison, there are very few Palestinians or anyone else from that part of the world in the country.  The Arabs have a lobby group active in Washington, but they are very small compared with the Jewish lobbies.

The problem, Eskimo, is that "those endless vetoes" will probably continue until the Arabs get their act together and learn how the political systems work here, and do effective things to change it.  The Saudi's have a big lobby, but they don't seem to want to help the Palestinians much.  With all the money that goes into that part of the world due to the oil wealth, I would have thought that the Arabs would have figured it out by now.  One problem has been that there is much fighting and discrimination among the Arabs and others in the Middle East.  Certainly the Iranians think the Arabs are unworthy and sub-human, and there is the class warfare between the Shiite and Sunni groups.  If they can somehow overcome these problems, stop their squabbling, and get to work, they can become a political and economic force that can effect change.

There are many in the US who think that we favor Israel too much (not just the Ku Klux Klan), and this is a group that the Arabs and others from the Middle East can cultivate and try to get to help them in this effort.  Dancing in the streets won't get the job done.  

Jack