I have observed a recent trend most of the discussions at k-online are assuming, which proves very insulting to reason and pricking to individual consciense.
I must reiterate here that the primary reason why we gather here to discuss issues of regional and international importance is to educate and imform one another using reasoned logic and palpable facts whenever we make assertions that require substantial evidence to make good sense.
But then when some among us deliberately prove themselves allergic to reason always, or atleast colour every issue with the cloak of the person who is making an assertion, then definately these people are sowing the seed of destructing any good sense any debate may make on the forum.
I am saying this having in mind the comments of a certain Lionger and a certain Ete made on my comments about the crises between Israel and Arabs which suggests that the Jews of Israel are fighting a battle only to prove a point with a very deep religious conviction. That their empire is built only on a certain religious dogma which keeps them under the illusion that they alone are banafide humankind in the sight of God.
To this all the two took exception by saying:
Ete:
Quote
Apart from that, you seem to be injecting religion into this issue, and this is not necessarily about religion. The Jews are quite clear that the actions they have taken border around their security as a people and as a nation. They have not claimed to be carrying out the wil of God or anything along those lines.
LiongerQuoteIn any case you are correct when you say that this particulr subject isn't really about religion as Waziri tries to show it. Israel is not quite a theocratic nation.
And in the same thread Ete went ahead to assert, truth or false, that Arabs cannot defeat Israel because Israel nation found base in religion. hear him:
Quote
Lionger took the time to respond to Waziri concerning the promised Land dispute in another forum. I think you should read that piece because it seems to explain why despite the odds, Isreal still stands firm.
This is not even mentioning Lionger's very incorrect reading of the Bible that makes him believe it is God that gave the Jews, the land, which he earlier claimed should not be seen from a religious point of view.
I must say I am tired of this gross insult on our collective intelligence. If this people can agree and be logical enough to admit the truth that the Jews have a religious mission in their occupation of the Arab lands. I can conviniently continue the discussions with them in order to find the true nature of this religion and its origin which informed the hatred that is explicated on the pages of the book of Deuteronomy. Otherwise, I will find reason to abandon you people and attend to other meaningful issues that will add brilliant colour to only well-intentioned participants, elsewhere.
Assalamu alaikum,
Waziri in as much as I share your concern for some people's insensivity and refusal to see things as they should be, but you should rather stay and carry on.
Haba Mallam Waziri. Kai ba'a ma zage kaba. Ni da na sha zagi har kashi biyu fa, dan na fadi gaskiya? Da Allah ka da ka tafi. Sai hakuri. Ka san a komai a rayuwa sai ka sami opposing factions. Wa'yansu zasu yi opposing din ka da kuma duk abin da za ka fada, ba dan komai ba sai dai don kai da su addinin ku ba daya bane, ko kuwa tsananin kabilanci, da raina 'yan arewa, saboda ana ganin ba abinda 'yan Arewa suka sani a fannin rayuwar zamani, ko ilimin zamani.
Mutane da yawa wa'yanda suke 'yan kudan cin Nigeria, suna fadowa cikin wannan forum din cikin yawace yawacen su a intanet, da wani superior attitude na tunanin cewa, duk mu'amallar da zasuyi, anan, zasu nuna wa 'yan Arewan tsananin ilimin da superiority da suke da shi da mu ('yan arewa) ba mu ko taka kara a kai ba. Sai tafiya tai tafiya, za kaga girman kan ya sakko, in an fara fahimtar juna. Saboda haka ba wani abin mamaki bane. Lokatai da yawa, ina so in cigaba da muhawarorin dana fada ciki, da wa'yan su mutane, amma in na dubi halin da nake ciki, sai inga bani da lokancin. Sai sun kawo wani abin haushi, ko sarkakke wanda mutum yasan a hankali, zai iya nuna musu kurakuren su, sai naga ce wa, zan bata lokaci ne kurum, when I can be getting on with more muhimman abubuwa, and besides some posts, really take time to construct, saboda sai kayi tunani, ka dubo material dinka to back u up and so on. Kuma it all takes time. So I quite understand yr frustrations. Amma dont leave. We need you as a vanguard and a bastion.
Waziri, I join Husnaa in appealing to you not to leave. By all counts you are an intelligent man. This does not mean that everyone will agree with your position on issues though. It also does not mean your views are always right. Like you say, we are all here to discuss issues. I disagree with you though that my posting on the Arab-Isreali conflict is an insult to anyone's intelligence. How is that?
My views are presented with verifiable facts. I do not think Arab sympathizers would necessarily agree with that, but documented account of events are just that.
Concerning the issue of Jews and religion, I said from the beginning that to the Jews, this campaign against Hezbollah has nothing to do with religion. This is about security and their right to exist. If we are to be honest, whenever conflict arises, it is the Arab Muslims that always infuse religion in the equation with the goal of ganering greater support and participation from fellow Arabs. This is a common pattern that we see over and over.
The truth is waziri, the Arab world had the ultimate goal of destroying Isreal. They outnumber the Jews 50-1. The question is have they succeeded in accomplishing that objective? When I made a statement that the Arab World cannot wipe Isreal off the map as they hope, I am looking at history. In 1948, the entire Arab World (with sophisticated weaponry) went to war against a rag-tag Isreali defense force, and lost. They sustained heavy casualties.
1967 WAR: Result: Arab defeat, and loss of territory
The 1967 Arab-Isreali war again ended in disaster for the Arabs. The war was fought between Israel and the nearby Arab states of Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, and Syria. At the war's end, Israel had gained control of the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights.
Here is how they matched up against each other in terms of numbers.
ISRAEL:
50,000 troops
197 combat aircraft
ARAB NATIONS IN THAT WAR:
280,000 troops
(Egypt 150,000)
Syria 75,000;
Jordan 55,000)
812 combat aircraft
1973 War: Result: Arab defeat at the hands of Israel:
The war began on the day of Yom Kippur with a surprise joint attack by Egypt and Syria. They invaded the Sinai and Golan Heights, respectively, which had been captured by Israel in 1967 during the Six-Day War. The Egyptians and Syrians advanced during the first 24?48 hours, after which momentum began to swing in Israel's favor. By the second week of the war, the Syrians had been pushed entirely out of the Golan Heights. In the Sinai to the south, the Israelis had struck at the "seam" between two invading Egyptian armies, crossed the Suez Canal (where the old ceasefire line had been), and cut off an entire Egyptian army just as a United Nations cease-fire came into effect.
Again, let us look the strengths of both sides:
Israel:
415,000 troops;
1,500 tanks
3,000 armored carriers
945 artillery units 100 mm and up
561 airplanes, 84 helicopters; 38 warships
Arab Coalition:
EGYPT
800,000 troops (300,000 deployed)
2,400 tanks,
2,400 armored carriers
1,120 artillery units 100 mm and up
690 airplanes, 161 helicopters; 104 warships
SYRIA: 150,000 troops (60,000 deployed)
1,400 tanks
800-900 armored carriers
600 artillery units 100 mm and up
350 airplanes, 36 helicopters; 21 warships
IRAQ: 60,000 troops
700 tanks
500 armored carriers
200 artillery units
73 airplanes
Now, this history and stats ought to tell any clear thinking person a whole lot. I'm telling you waziri, confrontation with these Jews is not a walk in the park now. Now I know Hamas, and Hezbollah are pretty formidable groups, but these Israelis don't play. They are not like certain Nigerians that allow themselves to be victims of religious riots and fanatism, and 'leave it to God to judge". These Jews do not leave anything to God to resolve. They take matters into their hands and extract their own pound of flesh. Honest they make sure they inflict more than enough pain when they repay their enemies.
But, let's all see how this plays out.
Quote from: "Ete"
These Jews do not leave anything to God to resolve. They take matters into their hands and extract their own pound of flesh. Honest they make sure they inflict more than enough pain when they repay their enemies. Quote
What a very appropriate comment. The first 'person' purported to demand a pound of flesh was Shylock, a Jewish money lender (Merchant of Venice), and it seems to point to a jewish affinity to over extract vengeance. Lebanon is an example.
You see, Ete I think I pointed at the section of your post which appears insulting to intelligence which you have not clarified or made any effort to counter. I must say that your avoiding that makes me a bit most uncomfortable with you. Nevertheless I will move ahead to question the statistics you have provided up there as regards your sources. In the absense of any good source on your part I will hasten to tell you that Michael Bar-Zohar, the person who wrote the biography of Ben-Gurion - Ben, was the commander of Israeli solidiers during six day war in 1967 - had it in the book, The Armed Prophet, page 173, quoting Ben as saying: "Let's be frank - it was not because we were able to perform miracles that we won, but because the Arabs armies are rotten."
That is to tell you that the Jews themselves know why they were able to defeat the Arabs, not your constant claim that it was some miracle or that Arabs had more sophisticated weapons than the Jews and yet got defeated.
Also one South African paper, The Daily News of May 29, 1974, carried a report by a certain Martin Zucker which says:
"The average Arab soldier, according to the Israelis, continues to be an individual coming from a peasant background with about six years of schooling...the average Israeli soldier-conscript, in comparison, has eight to 12 years of schooling, part of it technical...the Israelis rate their enemies as better physical specimens than them."
Ete, this is the truth, they Arabs, were not only out moneyed but also out weaponed and out-guned.
Before I depart I will leave you with what an American Christian lady, Alice F. Smith, said about the Palestian question way back 1989 in the February 20, edition of time magazine, 1989. Hear her describing the Israelites:
What manner of man would retaliate against a stone throwing child by shooting him in the back as he ran away? What manner of government would retaliate by fining already poverty striken parents $1,000, demolishing their home, and confiscating heir meager possessions? What manner of people are these arrogant settlers who think they have a God-given right to commit such atrocities and still cry for more? What manner of people are we , that we permit our government to give away billions of the American taxpayers' dolloars to Israel every year, enabling it to continue to subjugate the Palestinians?
Please Ete, try to come to terms with the truth that the Hizbullah were only saying that Israel must release other Arab prisoners they detain before they ask them to release their own. Instead then, Israel just retaliate with inhuman attacks, presuming that it is their right to detain Arab soldiers but NOT Arabs right to detain their own. Yet, the Arabs must release Israel's soldiers and must not demand that Israel should release Arab soldiers. This is not a fair deal.
The actions of Israel in Lebanon and Gaza are war crimes under international law which explicitly forbids attacks on civilians and on any nation's infrastructure. The whole international community except US and UK have condemned the Israeli barbarism.
Bush and Blair will roast in hell for the innocent blood on their hands.
At last the rest of the world is beginning to wake up to the fact that the US is governed by a half-witted madman who is merely the puppet for those behind him who want to seize all the world's resources.
Dave McEwan Hill
I hope Lionger and Ete are reading this post of yours, Dave. They usually respect what you say far and beyond what anyone else on this forum writes, and you are saying Israel's actions are indefensible
Husnna,....what makes you say that? That is really funny. Well, as they always say in diplomacy, Dave is entitled to his own opinion.
Look, the truth of the matter is, you cannot keep attacking people indisciminately from across a border and expect no consequence. Dave here is a flip flopping inconsistent opinionist. I cannot take many of his views seriously because they are often anti western rants and not careful analysis of the facts and the history involved in the subject matter.
I drew your attention to so many facts in this conflict. You choose to ignore those facts. I have drawn your attention to history. Again, you chose to ignore history. It is not only in the Charter of several Arab nations in the middle east to destroy Israel. They've put up spirited efforts to carry out that objective by striking Israel first, and instigating war.
What do you people expect? What would you do when your life and way of life is threatened by people that are hell bent on your destruction? It appears that you expect Israel to fold its arms and do nothing while her enemies attack her at will. This appears to be what you and Dave would prefer, but that is wishful thinking.
You keep blaming Israel. If the Arabs do not want fierce retaliation from Israel, then common sense dictatates that they stop waging war against Israel. Egypt and Jordan signed a peace treaty with Israel after series of similar wars that accomplished nothing but cause them to lose their territories instead. Since that peace treaty and a cessation of hostility, has any of those countries had any problems with Israel? NO! Has Israel attacked Egypt or Jordan since the peace was established? NO! Do you know why? Simple, because these two countries are not engaging in constant conflict and terror activities against Israel. You people do not seem to get it for some reason.
Israel pulled out of Lebanon several years ago. The reason why they were in Lebanon in the first place was as a result of war that was imposed on them by the Arab nations (including Lebanon). In that conflict, Israel gained control of Lebanese territory where hizbollah and other terror groups used in launching constant rocket attacks against Israel. Israel pulled out of Lebanon in 1982. Hezbollah and hamas used the presence of Israel in Lebanon as a basis for their constant rocket attacks against Israel. But then Israel pulled out. Why did the attacks not stop?
When Israel defends itself as any responsible society should do, Dave calls it war crimes. What do you call the spate of suicide bombings that palestinian militants carry out in Israel even when Israel went to the negotiation table, pulled out of Gazza, and demolished Jewish settlements in the West Bank? What do you call that? They give several concessions for the sake of peace, but what they get in return are suicide bombers blowing up civilian commuter buses and killing hundreds of people. What do you call that Dave and Husnaa? If Israel's actions are tantamount to war crimes, what about the crimes committed against Israel over and over again?
Dave, to tell me of once when the entire Arab world has condemned acts of terror against Israel by Islamic militants. When Al Quaeda killed Africans Kenya and Tanzania and destroyed infrastructure in those countries, where was the condemnation for that?
Again, it comes down to historical dishonesty or ignorance. When people here continually choose to ignore the whole picture, but pick when to point the finger, they'll wallow in self deceit.
Let us not forget that UN resolution 151 calls for the disarmament of Hezbollah. Has that happened? No!!!!!!!!!
Hezbollah, embeds itself into civil society, and from there, they carry out attacks against civilian positions in Israel. They are not a conventional army that goes to battle against opposing military forces. They rather carry out their evil affairs indescriminately against civilains, and expect to walk away scud free. If that is what you people are advocating, then that is unfortunate.
As part of its strategy, Hezbollah hides weapon caches in homes, does not target Israeli's military assest, but targets unarmed civilians with its rocket attacks instead, and then retreat back into civilian population in Lebanon thinking that by using civilian infrastructure as a shield, they will be safe to carry out their terror acts. Is that not callousness?
Like I said earlier, Israel has demonstrated that she will go after all Hezbollah hideouts. If Hezbollah wants, they can use cripples as human shield, but Israel is determined to take this fight to whatever level it needs to go in defense of itself.
If Arab countries are serious about achieving peace with Israel, they will in turn find peace. Egypt and Jordan came around, and today, those are turmoil free nations. The palestinians under Arafat were totally unserious about achieving a peaceful resolution, and as such the impasse with Israel still exists.
Arab muslims are known for their die hard and uncompromising nature. And as I said before, unfortunately for them, they have met their match in Israel that will only give so much, and then become resolute in their position. Let's watch and see how this plays out.
..
I have rarely read such rubbish as that penned by Ete in his most recent post.
As regular visitors to this forum are aware I am every bit as opposed to racist and intolerant Islamists as I am to American barbarism and Israeli mass murder of women and children.
The FACT is that international law states categorically that it is a war crime to attack the civilian population and the infrastructure of any nation no mather what the excuse.
The FACT is that is what Israel is doing at the moment.
The FACT is that 168 members of the UN have called on Israel to stop immediately and that only 3 - Israel. US and UK - disagree with this resolution.
I coulds write all night about the more than fifty years of Israel aggression against the Palestinians (whose land they are on), of more than fifty years of the theft of more and more Palestinian land, of more than fifty years of the Palestinains seeing their homes bull dozed and their children killed and dozens of UN resolutions against the rogue Israeli state which Israel just ignores.
But I've got other things to do and I will leave Ete to believe the US/Israeli lies he has been fed.
Dave McEwan Hill
Dave, your logic stuns me. So going by your UN definition of genocide, what do you call the suicide bombings in Israel where palestinian jihadists strapped themselves with explosives and blow up civilian buses full of women and Children? What do you call it when palestinian militants detonate a bomb in a crowded civilian area killing scores of people?
What would you call hezbollah's constants rocket attacks against Israeli civilians? It is a simple question, and I would expect a simple answer from you.
You say I have been fed American lies? What exactly are the lies you are refering to? Everything I have said is verifiable. I provide stats that you can research yourself in case you are in doubt. Prior to this escalation in Lebanon, we witnessed several hezbollah and hamas attacks against Israeli civilians. BBC, CNN, and even Al Jazeera reported those incident and both hezbollah and hamas were known for claiming responsibility for all of those attack. So going by your warped logic, are you saying then that Hezbollah and Hamas were lying when they went on T.V and claimed responsibility for a successful attack that kills several people? How do you explain this one Dave? Now you are in a box.
The other thing that amazes me is your limited knowledge of history. Explain to me how the land that Israel occupies belongs to the palestinians. Please set aside all the irrelevant long talk, just explain how Israeli terriroty belongs to the palestinians. That shouldn't be too difficult.
Thanks in advance
Ete
Stop talking nonsense and learn your history
The territory the Israelis presently occupy "legally" was called Palestine, inhabited by the Palestinians until Britain and America seized a large part of it after the Second World War and gave it to Jews from all over Europe to set up a new state of Israel.
The Palestinains were not asked.
Since then Israel has continually invaded and extended it borders illegally and in defiance of all United Nations resolutions to grab by armed force more land from the poor Palestinians and build more illegal Israeli settlements. They have recently withdrawn from a very small part of these illegal occupations.
They have killed and continue to kill Palestinian civilians, women and children like dogs as they do so.
This explains the suicide bombers. The Palestinains who cannot stand up to Israeli might, armed to the teeth with all the latest weaponry by America, feel they have no other course of action.
It should be pointed out that Israel, in defiance of the United Nations, also has nuclear weapons. It is a criminal state acting illegally all the time.
The exisence of Israel is the reason for the instability in the Middle East.
Were Israel to behave in a peaceful and legal manner to all the states around it there might be a possibility of progress towards peace, though it is unlikely that the Palestinians will ever agree that their land should have been taken from them and given to other people.
This act of stupidity by UK and US is the cause of the continuing conflicts.
It should be noted that the US actively wants instability in the Middle East and is looking for an excuse to attack both Syria and Iran, which would allow it to invade both or either of these countries. It is to be hoped that Syria ands Iran have the good sense not to be provoked into any military action at the moment in Lebanon.
With Russia now supporting Iran and Syria the third World War (which varioius seers have forecast will start in Iran in 2012) becomes a frightening possibility.
The US objective is to seize control of all of the Middle East and all Middle Eastern oil. It already control Iraq's. It wants Iran's. It is no coincidence that the Americans are now moving into Afghanistan in large numbers on a number of excuses. The pipe line than brings the oil out of the central Asian States (which are run by puppet US dictators) runs across Afghanistan.
Waken up, Ete
Nigeria is already on the US list!
Dave McEwan Hill
Dave, and you think I am confused? Wow! Settle down, I will soon provide you with a more accurate version of history. Now, you've thrown the oil equation into the argument. The US controls Iraq. Does Iraq apear to be under anybody's control? Is that what a controlled society looks like?
Look Dave, let us stick with the issue. Quit dragging this discuss in different directions. Let's put things in perspective here beacause what you've just written up there makes little sense to this dialogue. Bear with me shortly, I'll be back. Besides, you weren't able to respond to any of questions, especially this part..
"Dave, your logic stuns me. So going by your UN definition of genocide, what do you call the suicide bombings in Israel where palestinian jihadists strapped themselves with explosives and blow up civilian buses full of women and Children? What do you call it when palestinian militants detonate a bomb in a crowded civilian area killing scores of people?
What would you call hezbollah's constants rocket attacks against Israeli civilians? It is a simple question, and I would expect a simple answer from you. "
The US controls Iraq's oil is what I said if you read carefully.
The present chaos in Iraq suits the US perfectly well.
All oil installations are under control of the American military.
They don't care about anything else that is happening in Iraq - but the American public is beginning to see what the score is. Even a Democrat Preisident is unlikely to pull US troops out of Iraq. The chaos gives them the excuse that they must stay.
Dave McEwan Hill
As I pointed out the suicide bombers and the amateur rocket attcks on Israel are a result of nearly fifty years of violence against the Palestinians by heavily armed Israel. Perhaps you didn't read my post properly.
I note you make no comment on the crux of the problem - the Israelis are on the Palestinians land which was given to Israel by US/UK who had no right whatsover to give the Palestinians land to the Israelis.
Israel since has illegally invaded and grabbed more Arab lands almost every year. and crushed the Palestinian nation into tiny Gaza where they continue to attack and kill them
You expect the Arabs just to accept this?
Suicide bombs against innocent civilians are completely wrong. But it takes a huge grievance and huge courage for young men and women to do this.
Can you imagine how angry you would have to be to the injustice to your people to make you do this?
To many people Hezbollah and Hamas are not terrorists. They are freedom fighters. Africa knows much about freedom fighters.
Dave McEwan Hill
:? :x :evil:
Sorry Dave and Ete, excuse my interruption into your heated debate while I respond to the starter of this thread.
Waziri,
I'm quite saddened that you took such strong offense to my comments that you threatened to abandon a discussion that had barely even started. But for the life of me I cannot understand why you should feel that way. Having gone through the posts of the previous threads, I have to say that your annoyance can only stem from your own confusion and inability to separate issues properly, which resulted in your misunderstanding of my posts and Ete's on the thread he started.
Right from the beginning of this discussion you have relentlessly sought to accuse the Jewish religion of harboring racist hatred and violence, and thus being the source of Israel's malevolence. Sorry, but I must once again reject these claims as utterly groundless, and I'm yet to see a reason why I should waver from my position. What I mean is this: Israel's actions are not based on its adherence to its scriptures, but are an attempt to defend itself as it sees fit, rightly or wrongly (and I think its a mixture of both). Again, Israel has not carried out a bombing campaign in Southern Lebanon because the book of Deuteronomy say to do so, but in response to the actions of the Hezbollah. Come on, just last month, Jerusalem hosted the gay rights parade with the blessing of Israel's courts! You do understand how incompatible this is with the book of Leviticus, right? If Israel is indeed the theocratic state you take it to be, such a thing would not happen.
You took offense to my 'incorrect' presentation of Genesis (which was on an entirely separate thread): you complained that after I said that Israel's actions were not based on religion, I later used Genesis to prove Israel's right to the land (thereby indirectly saying that it does have everything to do with religion). Here you are muddling issues and confusing yourself. First of all I did not bring up Genesis out of the blue; you did, and I simply responded. Secondly, the crux of my Genesis post was not to legitimize Israel's existence or present actions, but to counter your interpretation of Genesis. This post was strictly about scripture interpretation: you said that the promised land concept in Genesis is 'shady'; I dissented. In the other posts you said 'Israel is doing this because their scriptures say so'; I said, 'no, Israel is simply defending itself'. One argument is about scripture interpretation, i.e. religion; the other is about motives. Get the difference?
Finally, as long as we're airing grievances, I want to bring attention certain portions of your post that I strongly object to:
QuoteI have observed a recent trend most of the discussions at k-online are assuming, which proves very insulting to reason and pricking to individual consciense.
I must reiterate here that the primary reason why we gather here to discuss issues of regional and international importance is to educate and imform one another using reasoned logic and palpable facts whenever we make assertions that require substantial evidence to make good sense.
But then when some among us deliberately prove themselves allergic to reason always, or atleast colour every issue with the cloak of the person who is making an assertion, then definately these people are sowing the seed of destructing any good sense any debate may make on the forum.
I must say I am tired of this gross insult on our collective intelligence...
Waziri, you made a post on Ete's thread; both he and I responded. Instead of continuing the discussion, you started this thread solely to complain about how 'tired' you are of our illogical, insulting and unreasonable tactics. Tired already? Your reference to our 'insulting post' as a 'recent trend on k-online' is even more amazing! All this is utterly ridiculous and very disrespectful. Please do not start a fire where there is none, and once again
please desist from all this unnecessary intellectual chest-beating. We all try to make logical arguments. I most certainly do not accept your take on Genesis, Deuteronomy and the present crisis as 'reasoned logic', but I'm not going to start a thread on how tired I am of your unreasonable guts without at least attempting some discussion. That is immature and childish nonsense. Speaking of discussion, I'm waiting patiently for you to prove just how 'incorrect' my reading of Genesis is (at least I provided a reading, you had none!) After this post I will make my response to you Deuteronomy passage - but on the Ahmadenijad thread, not here. Hope to see you there, and I trust that we can continue our detate in a respectful manner as always.
God bless,
lionger
Salam,
Readers, I am sorry for resurrecting all the relevant threads again to post my earlier response to the first part of the claims lionger and co are puting in relation to the promised land, who also accused me of misreading and misquoting "their" holy scripts in order to serve my purpose of expressing hate against them. Pls I do this for no reason than the following:
1. To establish within us and them that they have seen our thread and did not respond to what I said because they agreed with our points as such will not bother us again when we make points similar to these in future. It is a settled issue.
2. That in truth it is not only them that hold the present Bible very dear for it is as dear to us as they believe it is dear to them. That they should never accuse us again of mutiliating the Bible. Yes, we maybe wrong in some of our assertions but they have no right to claim better right of ownership of the scripts than us. Here is it:
QuoteHaving driven my points in the other thread started by my sister Husna, I will discuss, here, the falsity of the oft repeated claim, that there was an accord between God and the Jews which gave them Palestine permanently and for life, as promised. I will draw from the Biblical sources through to Qur?an and side by side the insurmountable evidence of history which will portray in grim light that the activities of the Jews in the Middle East is a breach of human dignity, an exercise in avarice and an eccentricity of the highest magnitude in the sight of God. In doing that we will certainly find the following verse giving the true test of what prophesy is, most instrumental. It reads:
And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing the Lord hath not spoken, but the the Prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Holy Bible (Deuteronomy 18:21-22)
Building in the submission of lionger in defense of the fraudulent accord we read in the same Bible how Abraham, the so-called, receiver of the promise, died in a land he bought for himself.
And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave....
The field which Abraham purchased of the sons of Heth: there was Abraham buried, and Sarah his wife.
Holy Bible (Genesis 25:9-10)
How possible is it then that he was given a land when he had buy one for his own grave? This is especially true when we see how another verse from the scripture confirmed it this way:
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off..
Holy Bible (Hebrews 11:13)
Nothing is most explicit than the account given by Luke in the Acts of the apostles as follows:
And God said unto him (Abraham), Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall show thee. Then came he out of the land of the Chaldeans, and dwelt in Haran; and from there, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land (Palestine) in which ye now dwell. And he (God) gave him (Abraham) no inheritance in it, NO, NOT SO MUCH AS TO SET HIS FOOT UPON; yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him.....
Holy Bible (Acts 7:3-5)
No wonder Jesus Christ (AS), the Messiah, liberator of the Jews has never mentioned anything, with emphasis, like the promised land given to the Jews anywhere. But rather he found comfort in telling them the stark truth that the spiritual leadership of Mankind has been taken away from them permanently with his coming, only to be given to another? in his own word:
Therefore I say unto you (Jews), The Kingdom of God shall be taken away from you (Jews), and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
(HOLY BIBLE) Matthew 21: 45
Earlier on Moses(AS) foretold them in this manner as seen in the following verses from our dear Deuteronomy:
Ye have been rebellious against the Lord from the day I knew you.
(HOLY BIBLE) Deutronomy 9: 24
For I knew thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the lord; and how much more after my death?
(HOLY BIBLE) Deutronomy 51:27
They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they (the Jews) have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are Not A People; I will provoke them to anger with a Foolish Nation.
(HOLY BIBLE) Deutronomy 32:21
THE QUR?AN
Having found no any substantial answer as to where the issue for the Promised Land came from in the Bible, only some good references that suggested the whole idea to mean a lie against God, we will turn to the Qur?an, perchance our Jewish brethren can have some legitimate claim in the LAST TESTAMENT of God. Here we find the verses as referred to here, aptly, by my sister Husna. Let?s re-read them together:
20 And (remember) when Moses said unto his people: O my people! Remember Allah's favour unto you, how He placed among you prophets, and He made you kings, and gave you that (which) He gave not to any (other) of (His) creatures.
21 O my people! Go into the holy land which Allah hath ordained for you. Turn not in flight, for surely ye turn back as losers:
22 They said: O Moses! Lo! a giant people (dwell) therein and lo! we go not in till they go forth from thence. When they go forth from thence, then we will enter (not till then).
23 Then out spake two of those who feared (their Lord, men) unto whom Allah had been gracious: Enter in upon them by the gate, for if ye enter by it, lo! ye will be victorious. So put your trust (in Allah) if ye are indeed believers.
24 They said: O Moses! We will never enter (the land) while they are in it. So go thou and thy Lord and fight! We will sit here.
25 He said: My Lord! I have control of none but myself and my brother, so distinguish between us and the wrong-doing folk.
26 (Their Lord) said: For this the land will surely be forbidden them for forty years that they will wander in the earth, bewildered. So grieve not over the wrongdoing folk. (Suratul Ma'ida verses 20 to 26).
Actually, there is no any point in the Qur?an where a contradictory claim, as is above is made, in relation to the story of the Jews and how they lost in the sight of God. As such we can easily conclude that the issue of the Promised Land found much substance only in the Qur?an. But then the truth of the matter as is consistent with every standard Qur?anic exegete, the Jews where given that land in their position then as the chosen people to lead Mankind in all their spiritual journeys in the universe. But as the time went, they proved arrogant and stiff-necked as seen in the accounts given above from the pages of Deuteronomy, by Moses, and Matthews by Jesus. So Allah said in the Qur?an:
O! CHILDREN OF ISRAEL! CALL TO MIND THE SPECIAL FAVOUR WHICH I BESTOWED UPON YOU, AND FULFIL YOUR COVENANT WITH ME AS I FULLFILL MY COVENANT WITH YOU AND FEAR NONE BUT ME.
Holy Qur?an (2:40)
That is to say they have not lived upto the expectations of God in their covenant with Him as such cannot continue to claim their status in His sight as the chosen people.
HISTORICAL REALITIES
From the point of view of history, Jews have never been known to have evolved as Jews, anytime prior to the time they stayed in the ancient Egypt, beginning at the time Joseph (AS) brought all the members of the family there to stay after he ascended a level, in the leadership of the ancient Egypt. Later the whole family was enslaved under the tyrannical administrations of the native Egyptians. Moses came to rescue them with the instructions that they should go and settle newly, in a Promised Land, from which they will give the desired spiritual leadership to mankind. They proved stiff-necked and rebellious until God changed them with the Arabs as the carriers of his message and the spiritual leaders of mankind in Islam under the leadership of Muhammad. But one truth remains like a hanging myth over the reality of human existence. The Jews under Talmudic prompting have never adjusted to the truth that they are no longer the favorites in the sight of God, as such; they attempted to kill Jesus and spent so many resources in bringing down the Prophet of Islam and his message. Palestine as a land that is chosen by God to be the heart of the earth with a great amount of spiritual goodwill was claimed and continued to be claimed by them.
It is a reality of history that since time immemorial, the ideology or nation that controlled the region has always been the nation that led the world in all other spheres of life. Think of Ottaman Empire, France and Britain. They were all world powers only when they were in control of the region, the moment they lost it, the moment their leadership slipped to the new occupiers of the place and Jews since they wanted to continue to lead mankind under a very false claim they kept the grudge touting the idea that its theirs hook or crook. But the truth of the matter lies in the words of Leopold Weiss another Jew, who converted to Islam around 1922 and having seen the evil machinations of the Talmudist in their plans to assume control of the region concluded about the ownership of the place, thus:
?It belongs to all those who mentally approach it with a humility born of faith in the one God, and particularly to those who, in the words of the Qur?an: ?Believe in all His messengers making no distinction between any of them.?
I remain most grateful, until I come with my analysis of Jewish worldview in the light of those laws of hate enumerated in the Deuteronomy. Thanks once again.
Click here for my response to your arguments (http://www.hausafulani.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2479)
QuoteReaders, I am sorry for resurrecting all the relevant threads again to post my earlier response to the first part of the claims lionger and co are puting in relation to the promised land, who also accused me of misreading and misquoting "their" holy scripts in order to serve my purpose of expressing hate against them. Pls I do this for no reason than the following:
1. To establish within us and them that they have seen our thread and did not respond to what I said because they agreed with our points as such will not bother us again when we make points similar to these in future. It is a settled issue.
2. That in truth it is not only them that hold the present Bible very dear for it is as dear to us as they believe it is dear to them. That they should never accuse us again of mutiliating the Bible. Yes, we maybe wrong in some of our assertions but they have no right to claim better right of ownership of the scripts than us.
Waziri, you've made some rather objectionable and wild statements in this post, but my response is simple:
please try to quote Bible verses in their proper context. It really is not that difficult. Haven't you noticed that I always say the same thing in response to your quotations? Out of context, out of context, out of context, out of context! This is not good scholarship. Here's a suggestion: before you present another Bible verse that meets your fancy on this forum, read the entire chapter surrounding that verse, maybe two chapters. Be sure that you've grasped the context and background of that verse and then go ahead. If you don't, then rest assured that I will once again do your homework for you. If indeed the Bible is dear to you as you claim (which frankly is double-talk since you called it a fraudulent accord previously) then it is not too hard a thing to pay attention to context. From the tragic phantom Deuteronomy passage to this post, contextual respect has been constantly bypassed. I'm not sure that I'd have enough time for more debate in this in the near future, but I strongly encourage you to read that whole chapter of Hebrews 11 again carefully. As I said before, if you quote the Quran in the same manner that's you've quoted the Bible often then one has to wonder if even that analysis can be trusted :( .
lionger,
You can provide the context if u so desire. But one thing is you cannot deny me the thorough knowledge of what I am doing. You know quite all right that I couldn't have gotten those verses without having laboured thru the scriptures! When you cannot do that you give me the ground in this. You are already looking so much on the defensive and am afraid it is not a very helthy thing for u.
Thanks once again.