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How can we ever develop when some Governors and state executives run their states like a beer palour.

Development eh? In Nigeria? hahahaha...we're only hoping that but not anticipating. If we truely want that to be present on this country's soil, we all must change completely.

How to change? That is a hard task because everybody's hope is to someday find himself on such position so as to have an oppotunity of putting all in his mouth and account.

Any hope? Well, as a Muslim, I read in Holy Qur'an that we should not gave up anticipating Allah's rahma mercy. So, I still have good hope in mind, and so I hope everybody to be.

Allah, bring bliss to this country...Ameen

Quote from: "Mushin"Any hope? Well, as a Muslim, I read in Holy Qur'an that we should not gave up anticipating Allah's rahma mercy. So, I still have good hope in mind, and so I hope everybody to be.

Allah, bring bliss to this country...Ameen

Very right brother.We should read The Qur?an more often and put into practice as much as possible.
With effort, perseverance, determination faith and hard work, we will get to where we need 2 b.

Give the nation over to women, kuga aiki da cikawa!

Quote from: "HUSNAA"Give the nation over to women, kuga aiki da cikawa!

WORD!!!

Quote from: "HUSNAA"Give the nation over to women, kuga aiki da cikawa!

Haba kekuwa Mata dai!!! kukam ai sai dai kitchen. Zizo has said everything. Let the christians too try and implement the true teachings of Jesus Christ.

Quote from: "Barde"

Quote from: "HUSNAA"Give the nation over to women, kuga aiki da cikawa!

Haba kekuwa Mata dai!!! kukam ai sai dai kitchen. Zizo has said everything. Let the christians too try and implement the true teachings of Jesus Christ.

Are not some of the exposed state govts run by christian govenors? So how come they never implemented the true teachings of christ? :?  A beg, move over make way for us women.

All of the talk is 44 yrs of northern rule and nothing achieved. Well make it 44yrs of male mismanagement and nothing to show  :roll: .

Maza calling themselves leaders a nigeria sun dai fadi kasa warwas. There is nothing to pick up.

Quote from: "HUSNAA"Give the nation over to women, kuga aiki da cikawa!

A dauri k*shi, ko a bata igiya? :P

Quote from: "HUSNAA"Give the nation over to women, kuga aiki da cikawa!

that it husnaa you tell em, ai behind a successful man theres a woman :lol:  so a bi shawararmu 8)

Quote from: "amira"

Quote from: "HUSNAA"Give the nation over to women, kuga aiki da cikawa!

that it husnaa you tell em, ai behind a successful man theres a woman :lol:  so a bi shawararmu 8)

You women are just running away from your God-given responsibilities for something else. God forbid! you can't do anything better, infact it is a waste of time discussing it as a topic.

Lol :lol:

Barde is refusing to get their jokes!!!

Quote from: "_Waziri_"Lol :lol:

Barde is refusing to get their jokes!!!

Oh yes they got me, didn't realised until after i responded.

Quote from: "HUSNAA"Give the nation over to women, kuga aiki da cikawa!

Hum? Women should be given this country?.kwamachala kenan??.This is a misnomer. Ai Dr. Kamal (BUK) has had raised a very good notion concerning where women should appropriately be. He suggested that they should ?stayed put? at their homes in his recent novel Portrait of a Patron. This really is a nice idea.

Yaya Husna, are you really dreaming something like this in Nigeria? Better desist because our eyes are open. We?ll never let you?haha?.lol.
You are going to put too much salt in your husbands? soup, when too much pressure at office is exerted upon you. And what d?u think will then happen?. But don't mind my words, I'm not trying to enfeeble your effort. Its great![/size][/color]

Funny thread..

The weird thing is that Nigerians r a very religious ppl but this apparently has no effect on the high level of corruption in our country. Makes one wonder.

Actually I'm very sympathetic to the idea of women 'taking over', though it is not necessarily guaranteed to change much. It's not like us men have worked wonders, so more power to you Husnaa and amira! Don't let Barde and Muhsin discourage you  :P
. Btw Muhsin, your post made me crack up. LOL! Lets just pray that Husnaa don't dash you a hot cyber-slap in return  :twisted: ..

PS Barde, long time no see. How bodi?  Hope you are having a good Ramadan.

Quote from: "Husnaa"Give the nation over to women, kuga aiki da cikawa!

Men have succeeded in ruining and plundering the resources of his country?and im a strong believer of:" what a man can do a woman can do BETTER."...so... :lol:

Quote from: "HUSNAA"Give the nation over to women, kuga aiki da cikawa!

I nominate Dora Akunyili

Thank u Amira, Fateez for yr support.  :D With yr votes, we will have a landslide victory. Fateez VP, Amira, take over from ken Nnamani. Meanwhile Lionger, u become special advisor and minister for Men's affairs, and Zizo, Now how would u like a portfolio as ambassador at large and plenipotentiary? 8)

Barde,  :evil: I have reserved a cell for u at Abu Ghraib and U Muhsin choose between kirikiri and Guantanomo Bay. :twisted:

Bakan Gizo explain yrself first and maybe u can save yrself from the  treasonable assertion na kishiya.  :x We wont entertain any opposition parties here. We intend to fully implement the tazarce syndrome in this govt. For that reason, I am blacklisting Guest33 who is  already nominating someone else....  Expect a friendly visit from the secret service soon...... :evil:

Quote from: "HUSNAA"Thank u Amira, Fateez for yr support.  :D With yr votes, we will have a landslide victory. Fateez VP, Amira, take over from ken Nnamani. Meanwhile Lionger, u become special advisor and minister for Men's affairs, and Zizo, Now how would u like a portfolio as ambassador at large and plenipotentiary? 8)

Barde,  :evil: I have reserved a cell for u at Abu Ghraib and U Muhsin choose between kirikiri and Guantanomo Bay. :twisted:

Bakan Gizo explain yrself first and maybe u can save yrself from the  treasonable assertion na kishiya.  :x We wont entertain any opposition parties here. We intend to fully implement the tazarce syndrome in this govt. For that reason, I am blacklisting Guest33 who is  already nominating someone else....  Expect a friendly visit from the secret service soon...... :evil:

What a tyrannical Government!!!

Quote from: "lionger"Funny thread..

The weird thing is that Nigerians r a very religious ppl but this apparently has no effect on the high level of corruption in our country. Makes one wonder.


PS Barde, long time no see. How bodi?  Hope you are having a good Ramadan.

Lionger, Long time, am fine and enjoying my ramadan, hope you are ok too.

Let me continue our disagreement from here. Our problems are directly or indirectly related to religion. As a muslim, i strongly belief that if we implement what Allah and his messenger instruct us to do, Nigeria will be fine. Mallam Shekarau has started, with his Adaidaita Sahu, May Allah reward him abundantly. As per the Christians, let  me quote Rev. William Okey, in his book; Keys to National Tranformation-A christian approach.

"The church is expected to play a prominent role in Nigeria's rebirth, reformation and reconstruction through a redefinition of the nation's morality, code of conduct and disciple. These are achievable if the church places greater emphasis on sound biblical teachings and values. The Bible says righteousness exalts a nation, while the result of unrighteousness includes poverty and want in the midst of plenty. From one of the richest nations in the world a few decades ago, our country has dropped to one of the poorest nations of the world." He concluded by saying "We must strive to make the fear of God and righteousness the foundation upon which this nation is built if we expect to see a turn-around in the fortune of our beloved nation."

I strongly have the same opinion with the reverend father regarding the problems we are facing, that was why i said we should try and implement what our various religions are teaching us and Nigeria will become a great nation.

Quote from: "Barde"

As per the Christians, let  me quote Rev. William Okey, in his book; Keys to National Tranformation-A christian approach.

"The church is expected to play a prominent role in Nigeria's rebirth, reformation and reconstruction through a redefinition of the nation's morality, code of conduct and disciple. These are achievable if the church places greater emphasis on sound biblical teachings and values. The Bible says righteousness exalts a nation, while the result of unrighteousness includes poverty and want in the midst of plenty. From one of the richest nations in the world a few decades ago, our country has dropped to one of the poorest nations of the world." He concluded by saying "We must strive to make the fear of God and righteousness the foundation upon which this nation is built if we expect to see a turn-around in the fortune of our beloved nation."

I strongly have the same opinion with the reverend father regarding the problems we are facing, that was why i said we should try and implement what our various religions are teaching us and Nigeria will become a great nation.

I agree completely with the reverend as well. The role of the church as an organization and as a group of individuals is to positively influence (not dictate, influence) the moral stature of the country - to act as a sort of national conscience, in a sense. But this can only be done by preaching as well as living the words of the Bible. Reverend Okey hits the nail on the head by pin-pointing sound biblical teaching on righteousness and the fear of God. One problem I've had with some Nigerian churches is that there isn't enough of this kind of teaching. Everyone wants to hear about a God of miracles who desires to make his people prosper, but aren't as keen on sermons about holiness, righteous living and integrity. Such attitudes need to change for the good of the church and the nation at large.

Quote from: "HUSNAA"Thank u Amira, Fateez for yr support.  :D With yr votes, we will have a landslide victory. Fateez VP, Amira, take over from ken Nnamani. Meanwhile Lionger, u become special advisor and minister for Men's affairs, and Zizo, Now how would u like a portfolio as ambassador at large and plenipotentiary? 8)

Barde,  :evil: I have reserved a cell for u at Abu Ghraib and U Muhsin choose between kirikiri and Guantanomo Bay. :twisted:

Bakan Gizo explain yrself first and maybe u can save yrself from the  treasonable assertion na kishiya.  :x We wont entertain any opposition parties here. We intend to fully implement the tazarce syndrome in this govt. For that reason, I am blacklisting Guest33 who is  already nominating someone else....  Expect a friendly visit from the secret service soon...... :evil:

Funniest thread of the year :lol: .
Oh! Barde has said the word I wanna say. Anyway, you gave me two choice thus I prepare Guantanomi Bay :shock: . You see, I'll be afar from you form there and then I may be released someday may be by Fidel Castro. :idea:

Quote from: "Husnaa"Plenipotentiary?

:?  :?:  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:

Quote from: "lionger"Funny thread..

The weird thing is that Nigerians r a very religious ppl but this apparently has no effect on the high level of corruption in our country. Makes one wonder.

Iv always said that Nigerians are very God-conscious and not God-fearing people.
I agree with u and Barde,religion should NEVER be separated from state,Nigeria will never succed as s secular state??..
Nor will it succeed with a woman as head :)

Plenipotentiary =  invested with a full go ahead to represent yr govt and make decisions independent of the govt. (That was a post given to someone in one of the past nigerian administrations, either Shagari's time or during the Babangida era)
Anyway. Seriously though, I think most of the men who refuse to consider a woman as a possible candidate do so because they feel threatened by them. History has shown that men have no justificatication for holding the view that women cannot lead. In fact where women have been leaders, the countries have prospered economically. I mean look at two glaring examples in Nigeria. The appointment of Okwonjo Iweala as Finance minister yielded some spectacular results in that we got rid of at least half of our debts. Who could boast of such an achievement amongst the men? Look at Dora Akunyili. She is doing what no Nigerian man put in her post has managed to do!! Even NDLEA cannot boast of having achieved as much as she has in terms of sanitizing the pharmaceutical industry. These are just two women who have been given the chance to serve Nigeria and they came out with shining colors.
If we go out further afield, we take a look at Ellen Sirleaf Johnson. Within a few months of assuming office in Liberia she was able to ensure that parts of the capital Monrovia got access to pupm water for the first time in 15 yrs!! The water supplied also met WHO standards according to the MD of the Liberian water corporation. Ellen Johnson also installed generator powered street lights in the capital Monrovia also after 15yrs without electricity.

The implication of this with respect to Nigeria is that Ellen Johnson has practically illustrated how easy it is to make water and electricity accessible to the common ppl. In otherwords, every local govt in Nigeria ought to have been been enjoying pipe borne water and electricity for the last 20yrs or so. These facilities should have been common place and taken for granted in Nigeria, given the billions of naira that were supposed to have passed down to local govts for development projects.
These are just some examples of African women. There is no need for me to go afar and touch on others like Margaret Thatcher and Hilary Clinton, who given the chance will make an excellent American president, just like her husband was.
Another thing is that women are not war mongers. If a woman loses an election, she is not likely to plunge her country into civil war or threaten to do so like what is happening now between Laurent Kabila and the other contestant for the presidency of the democratic Republic of Congo, Jean Pierre Bemba, whose militia on both sides have engaged in gun battles following the announcements of the results of the election of which there was no clear winner.
Recently a week ago or so, Zambia held its national  elections. One of the presidential hopefuls Michael Sata was  reported in the news  to be threatening to resort to violence, should he not find himself the next elected head of Zambia, or should there be election malpractices.

Behavior like this is only associated with men, not with women and it goes a long way to destabilizing countries and entire regions, and all as result of men being in power. Shame on African male Head of States. You have really shown yrselves to be greedy, power drunk and useless. This is an indictment that no one on this board can contest!!!

PS Barde's response to my earlier post was to write that my hypothetical govt was tyrannical!!. I am so glad he wrote that because the despotic setup of the imaginary govt is exactly what the current Nigerian and some orthe past govts have been like.

Madam Husnaa, I agree with the spirit of your post; though not necessarily the letter. However I think Barde's and Muhsins issues with female rulers seems to be based on a religious perspective, i.e. Islam. What do u say to that?

Quote from: "lionger"Madam Husnaa, I agree with the spirit of your post; though not necessarily the letter. However I think Barde's and Muhsins issues with female rulers seems to be based on a religious perspective, i.e. Islam. What do u say to that?

why not the letter? Where have I got it wrong?
Yes, u are rite about Muhsin and Barde. But the Islamic perspective never made it sound as derogatory as those two did, and the reasons why women cant assume the mantle of power are also different from those of M and B. It maybe my ignorance in Islamic matters but I am still to discover where there were categorical statements made either by the Prophet SAW or in the Qur'an about the unsuitability of women as rulers. I know that in legal matters, women must not become public judges, not because we are not as intelligent as men, but bcos women are prone to hormonal imbalances which makes their mental faculties less sharp at some times. For the same reasons women are far more compassionate, and disposed to being emotional than men so there is a possibility that they will be more lenient where a severe judgement is required. But I guess the greatest responsibility that God gave a woman is bearing and looking after offsprings which is indeed very great, and for that matter, did not impose on her the additional burden of ruling a nation.
The irony of it is that if only ppl realized that ruling over a nation in the Islamic sense is like walking on a tight rope, no one will volunteer to do it let alone fight to the death to have the so called priviledge of doing so.

Quote from: "zizo"

Quote from: "lionger"Funny thread..

The weird thing is that Nigerians r a very religious ppl but this apparently has no effect on the high level of corruption in our country. Makes one wonder.

Iv always said that Nigerians are very God-conscious and not God-fearing people.
I agree with u and Barde,religion should NEVER be separated from state,Nigeria will never succed as s secular state??..
Nor will it succeed with a woman as head :)

I didn't understand Barde's post to be about combination of religion and state - though I wouldn't be surprised if that's what he actually meant. But this has proven time and time again to be a failed route. If the tragically flawed defense of Yerima's alleged indiscretions on this very forum is anything to go by; it will solve absolutely nothing, but will create other problems.

From your other posts zizo I see that you are a very patriotic and optimistic person who desires the best for Nigeria. Nigeria is a multireligious society. Therefore it simply cannot functioinally exist as anything other than a secular state. Sudan tried it the other way; look what happened. There is no doubt in my mind that this other route will only accomplish the worst in Nigeria, not the best.

Quote from: "Barde"
Let me continue our disagreement from here. Our problems are directly or indirectly related to religion. As a muslim, i strongly belief that if we implement what Allah and his messenger instruct us to do, Nigeria will be fine.

Bearing in mind dat Nigeria is nt an Islamic dominated country. If another is a strongly believing christian, & others subjects theirselves in other believes, which religious umbrella shud the politics itself go under?  There is bound 2 b conflict of interest!

Plus these days religion is next of kin 2 politics anyway!  However, where has it taken other countries? I can see Iraq, America, Palestine & Israel duin very well!!!

I stresssss in vainnnnnnnn :evil:, ppl shud hav as much regard as possible 4 religion all in d name of good politics ......Do away wit such reasons like religion or ethnic bckgrounds & put politics on gud grounds.......Any alternative Barde?.....But I will tell u dat the BIG PROBLEM is NOT directly related 2 religion. Good Economics makes gud politics!!!! Instead, d corrupt politicians go around harvestin money like drift net fishing, scourin our country from its good economic ocean.

Yeah & 4 all of u sayin women dis, women dat......I will get bck in due course.

Its like am been misuderstood. My opinion is that, if we are going to make a difference in this nation at this critical time, we must put aside greed and put on the spirit of good moral behaviour. Things of eternal value must have preminence in our lives, we must come to live with eternity in view, and also realise that life does not end here, that we are pilgrims and strangers in this world, therefore we have to live for the hereafter. If religious leaders can emphasise on these teachings, i think Nigeria will be great.

And the issue of women as rulers, i still hold the opinion that it is a waste of time discussing the issue. I think the nonsense originated from the west and to my greatest suprise, they dont seems to buy the idea anymore. There was a survey conducted across the UK by ITV, the topic was What does a Man loves in a Woman? majority of those who responded went for a Full time house wife, for no other reason than to stay and take care of the children. On the final day of the survey, they showed some kindergaten homes where working mothers go to dump their babies before going to work. Everybody(including the mothers) was in total disbelief when we saw how the attendants, at various occasions, were maltreating the children, they dont give them food as at when due, so also the children will excret and they will be left unattended, etc. It was concluded that as a result of this maltreatment, about 10-15 children misbehave across the UK in every five minutes, and the reason was that those children grew-up without their motherly care.

*Signs*......where r d "Flintstones"? I meant Fred & Barney....(Barde & Muhsin). Seriously I taught stone age was an era of the past & u guys hav got rid of cocoa leaves & xchanged dem 4 clothes. That statement of "woman's place is in d kitchen" is long gone but d way I c it, u boys r just guided by ur very over inflated MACHO EGO's, which has resulted in ur propagation dat a woman shud not work but deserves only 2 b in d kitchen!!!!! :P  What's my gripe is, how these boys go on about women cant & shudnt work!!! And the annoying thing is how the cunningingly use religion to support their point.

Lionger rehighlighted......their claim.....dont mind them jare. I dont know where they got the notion of their misconception & they r here harbouring that idea. Let me shed a LITTLE LIGHT on d LITTLE I KNOW

Islam is eligatarian & has a creed that rejects that macho "feeeeeel" men have ova women. Islam detonates the connotion dat men feel of being superior 2 women & considering them inferior. men.

The Almighty said: "The best of u in my sight is d best conduct of my conciousness" (S48-13). The Messeger also said: "All ppl r equal like the teeth of a comb. No merits 4 an arab over a non-arab or a white ova a black or of a male ova a female & women were d twin halves of men" It is therefore difficult 2 imagine twin halves who do not have EQUAL RIGHTS!!!!!!!

Islam does not prohibit women from working but emphasises upon the abhorrence of anything that will cause abstinence.

During the time of th Prophet (P.B.U.H) Women like Al-Rubayya Bint Muaawith accompanied the army to war giving water n treatment 2 d injured as recounted byAhamad Al Bukhari. Isnt that a job, a responsibility? If a woman is widowed & has no hopes of remarrying cant she go out & work? Stuck with financial hardship? When push comes to shove wouldnt a woman go out & work? In many circumstances, it will become imperative for a woman 2 work. There r professions where women r sorely required. Instance? Medical field, or is there no such area where a woman wants another woman's supervision?

In as much as a womans place is in the house, Islam does not intent on caging a woman just at the expense of the man 2 diminish her dignity her, torment or belittle her of having no purpose but 2 cook & clean, nor  intended on satisfyin a man's pride for machoness, rather:

It is suggested that a woman should stay at home 2 protect her nature & feminity away frm "WOLVES" who like 2 devour & illicitly exploit her 4 commerce purpose 2 soothen their greed.
Respect her supreme function because God gave her more than a man's portion of compassion, affection, sensitivity & an even more compassion for motherhood, which supersedes all industries in the nation, & that is the industry 4 d future generation.
Women make up half of society & r responsible 4 nurturing, guiding & reforming the susequent generation of men & women......more respect 2 women ojhare!!
Islam allows her 2 work outside the home & in appropriate  jobs which suites her nature, her concern & her capacity. If these requirements are met...A WOMAN CAN WORK & IS CONSIDERED LEGITTTT!!!!!
I am not all for stupid liberation & other unsupporting interlectual reasons that has invaded d minds of other women who hit their chest & say "wat a man does, a women does even better", civilisation or freedom reasons but that there is a neat line drawn on the permisability of female muslim workers, which all boils down on maintaining a barrier b/w a man & a woman.

Typical!!! Another excuse! A'a......even in Nigeria not western societies ......families get Nannies.......u r off 2 work, wife needs a little xtra help. Well, on that point, parents shud first check on what kind of creche center they drop their kinds. Thou this is not a strong reasons, why women should not work!!. Only God knows how many nannies u had when u were a baby. (she laffs)

Barde digg this......As woman with spine (she laffs), I stand poised 2 annouce that it will soon b a takeover, sittin on d Presidential seat will b a woman......& trust me Nigeria will go tru a rebirth....just giv it time.

FROM CORRUPT GOVT DISCUSSION, WE HAV TURNED IT IN2 SUMTHING ELSE.

Quote from: "ummita"*Signs*......where r d "Flintstones"? I meant Fred & Barney....(Barde & Muhsin).

.

Lol! I like that!!! :lol:  :lol:  :lol: you really nailed them there!!

Haba Ummita, you cease to be as discernible as i used to know, you just went about calling us names and arguing blindly. I will reply you tomorrow inshaAllah.

Ummita,

I made myself clearer but you still went ahead and misunderstood, eventhough i said its a waste of time discussing the issue, its important for me to reiterate my opinion, perhaps you and your Battallion may see reason in what i meant.

What i did essential is to discuss about the genesis of women as rulers/workers(which we all know that its alien to us) by given an example of the Countries that have given women the so-called rights of freedom and left them free to do as they wish are now shedding tears of remorse over the pathetic plight of their degeneration and disintegrating societies, their women being economically and socially independent, are no longer faithfull and dedicated daughters, wives, sisters and mothers. Scholars of such countries opined that "In human history the periods which have been plagued with decay and degeration are those in which women have stepped outside their homes", one other scholar also opined that "I have firm belief that this world will transform into heaven if women shoud be content in cherishing their children and fulfulling their domestic responbilities." Emphasis mine.

Quote
*Signs*......where r d "Flintstones"? I meant Fred & Barney....(Barde & Muhsin). Seriously I taught stone age was an era of the past & u guys hav got rid of cocoa leaves & xchanged dem 4 clothes. That statement of "woman's place is in d kitchen" is long gone but d way I c it, u boys r just guided by ur very over inflated MACHO EGO's, which has resulted in ur propagation dat a woman shud not work but deserves only 2 b in d kitchen!!!!!  What's my gripe is, how these boys go on about women cant & shudnt work!!! And the annoying thing is how the cunningingly use religion to support their point.

No wonder marriages of 'stone age era' were more blissful, children of 'stone age era' were more respectful and the whole society was more peaceful and conducive. Suprisingly, the 'stone age era' is considered as old-fashioned and yet they did not witness the kind of morale decadence the 'modern world' is witnessing.

Quote

Lionger rehighlighted......their claim.....dont mind them jare. I dont know where they got the notion of their misconception & they r here harbouring that idea. Let me shed a LITTLE LIGHT on d LITTLE I KNOW

Islam is eligatarian & has a creed that rejects that macho "feeeeeel" men have ova women. Islam detonates the connotion dat men feel of being superior 2 women & considering them inferior. men.

You goofed, who said men are superior to women? we were just trying to remind you of your God-given responsibilities, which you all acknowledged, though you all refused to understand the consequences of abondoning such responsibilities which our Holy Prophet (SAW) had warned His ummah much earlier that "The worst period for the muslims will be when they will be dominated by their women, who would be sole managers of their collective affairs."  Nabi (SAW) further said "The woman who remained within her home and take care of her children will be with me in paradise." What better tidings a woman or anybody would cherish more than being with the Holy Prophet (SAW) in jannah??? What the latter Hadith is teaching you is that its better for you to do what the prophet says and be with him in Jannah than emulate the Thatchers, Ellen Sirleaf's, Dora Akunwuli's, etc which will land you and everybody in trouble.  Being at home doesnt make you inferior to men rather you are obediently discharging your God-given responsibilities, anything contrary, we will find ourself in trouble which is already manifesting. All the same, if you consider it as being inferior, so be it.

Go ahead and become rulers of the world but the consequence is going to be catastrophic.

Let me leave you with another Hadith "when your rulers and caretakers are wicked and your rich are misers, and your affairs are looked after by the women, then your death is better than life." Emphasis mine.

I am quite frankly gobsmacked by some of the remarks published in this discussion. Many of the views expressed belong 2000 years ago if they ever belonged at all.
I have had a long and generally happy and productive life. Whether here in Scotland or in Africa I have worked with and alongside many marvelous women. I have never noticed them being any less able than men. In fact I have seen so many men whose behaviour is so badly affected by illicit sexual desire (including me!) that I would say that women are much more reliable most of the time than men.
In fact not only are women more reliable they are usually more honest, most caring,more conscientious and more responsible than men.
Men can be constructive and progressive and innovative (but also aggressive and ambitious) but it is usually the woman that supplies the stability and the detail.
Ideally every person of whatever gemder should be allowed to stretch themselves and contribute their best effort to the community. If that means taking charge of things because you are good at it your gender is unimportant.

I am quite frankly gobsmacked by some of the remarks published in this discussion. Many of the views expressed belong 2000 years ago if they ever belonged at all.
I have had a long and generally happy and productive life. Whether here in Scotland or in Africa I have worked with and alongside many marvelous women. I have never noticed them being any less able than men. In fact I have seen so many men whose behaviour is so badly affected by illicit sexual desire (including me!) that I would say that women are much more reliable most of the time than men.
In fact not only are women more reliable they are usually more honest, more caring,more conscientious and more responsible than men.
Men can be constructive and progressive and innovative (but also aggressive and ambitious) but it is usually the woman that supplies the stability and the detail.
Ideally every person of whatever gemder should be allowed to stretch themselves and contribute their best effort to the community. If that means taking charge of things because you are good at it your gender is unimportant.

Wai an ce laifi tudu ne sai ka take naka ka hango na wani.
You men are so fond of quoting the hadeeths at women to explain to us where we are wrong or where we are failing to follow the sunnah of the prophet. What about you men? Are u following the sunnah of the prophet? Did the prophet advocate a western style of leadership? Isnt that what u men are so thick as thieves with, that you fight and kill each other to attain a position in a secular westernized politcal system? Isn't there not supposed to be a rat race for the leadership? Isn't leadership in Islam supposed to be given to the one with the best conduct, best understanding of shari'a, the Qur'an and etc? Is it happening? Where is the caliphate system whereby all muslims of the world should be under the umbrella of one Caliph?

Quote from: "Barde"
Let me leave you with another Hadith "when your rulers and caretakers are wicked and your rich are misers, and your affairs are looked after by the women, then your death is better than life."

Right on target there, Barde. 'When ur rulers and caretakers are wicked... ' Right; who are the caretakers?
Men.  
'when ur rich are misers... '

Who are the controllers of the wealth in Nigeria for example?
Men
Isnt that an indictment on men?
and hasnt it ever occured to you that if you men had done what the prophet had told you to do in the first place, the women may not have come out clamoring for change? If u men had not engaged in the most stupid wars and literally brought down a country to its heels, there wouldnt have been an Ellen Sirleaf Johnson to salvage the mistakes made by men; there wouldnt be a Doris Akunyili, if the men who were in her position had done the job they were supposed to do.

An rika sara ana duban bakin gatari dan Allah

Quote from: "Barde"

What i did essential is to discuss about the genesis of women as rulers/workers(which we all know that its alien to us) by given an example of the Countries that have given women the so-called rights of freedom and left them free to do as they wish are now shedding tears of remorse over the pathetic plight of their degeneration and disintegrating societies, their women being economically and socially independent, are no longer faithfull and dedicated daughters, wives, sisters and mothers. Scholars of such countries opined that "In human history the periods which have been plagued with decay and degeration are those in which women have stepped outside their homes", one other scholar also opined that "I have firm belief that this world will transform into heaven if women shoud be content in cherishing their children and fulfulling their domestic responbilities." Emphasis mine.

Who are these Western scholars? I really would like to know :idea:

Why it is that 'some people' think men perceive women as inferior when the formr prefer the latter to stay home and look after the family.
Hey, as a man id gladly lounge at home all day and play with the kidz while someone else had to go out work all day everyday if I could.
Seriously i dont think women should work when they dont have to.
I take it nobody has read Nura's post about economically empowering women in Africa?

Ummita n Husnaa,you seem to speak for and against the view of female participation in govt/economy as per the dictates and tenets of Islam.

Dave,bad behaviour is not a function of a persons gender but rather a person is influenced by his environment, beliefs,morality etc

Lionger,I just want to say it seems your perception of democracy and good governance is as how America has successfully made the world to subconsciously accept: that  successful and prosperous   democracy(the American model) is synonymous with secularism, freedom,capitalism and free trade.
The 'failures' of Sharia in places Sudan and Zamfara is as a result of the implementers and not as a result of the shari'a system itself.

Nigeria should adopt a pluralist and tolerant system of government that catewrs for and reflects its peoples beleifs,cultures and customs.
We should not expect that blind copying of western models will work for us.

Quote from: "Dave_McEwan_Hill"Many of the views expressed belong 2000 years ago if they ever belonged at all.

Some of the views worked then and are very relevant today!!

zizo,

QuoteI just want to say it seems your perception of democracy and good governance is as how America has successfully made the world to subconsciously accept: that successful and prosperous democracy(the American model) is synonymous with secularism, freedom,capitalism and free trade.
The 'failures' of Sharia in places Sudan and Zamfara is as a result of the implementers and not as a result of the shari'a system itself.  
Nigeria should adopt a pluralist and tolerant system of government that catewrs for and reflects its peoples beleifs,cultures and customs.
We should not expect that blind copying of western models will work for us.

I wonder why/how you came to this conclusion about my attitudes. In any case, since time immemorial societies have evolved by copying bits and pieces from each other. Therefore we should not fail to recognise the good in American democracy, and there is good to be found! Moreover, the American brand of democracy is different from the one found in Europe or the one found in certain Asian countries. Yet these nations are for the most part economic powerhouses, successful and 'free'. We need to look at these successful nations and work out a brand of governance that will meet our own unique needs.

Interesting that you mentioned tolerance and pluralism as characteristics of the ideal Nigerian government. Now if there is one issue where religion+state has failed woefully time and time again, it is tolerance. We all know the West has many flaws, but it is far, far more tolerant and accepting than many self-professing muslim nations. Even the recently 'liberated' Afghanistan exhibited some carry-over from the Taliban early this year, when it nearly passed a death sentence on Abdul Rahman for converting to Christianity from Islam. Whether this is due to the implementors or sharia itself is another question, but it is well besides the point. Religion is a highly sensitive and subjective issue, and if allowed to dictate state policy is bound to create havoc and unrest especially in non-homogenous societies. Western societies have a much better record, and we will do well to emulate them in this regard.

There really isn't any reason why anyone would desire to live under the dictates of another man's religion. The Sudan has a similar demographic makeup with Nigeria, and thus serves as a grim and unmistakable warning to us and others. Religion+state just simply isn't the answer.

Of course, if a woman wants to stay at home and bring up the children that is entirely acceptable - especially if that is a joint and voluntary decision by the parenting couple.
Any notion that staying at home, looking after a household and bringing up children is an easy or lazy choice is nonsense.
Many mothers feel more able to contribute to a family by bringing in the extra income that work will give her and, aftet the children are a little bit grown, that is a popular choice of many in the  "West".
I can see no reason why men should think they alone are the ones to make these decisions about their wives lives.
That is the core of this issue. Have women the right to hold opinions and are their opinions as valid as mens' opinions?

Quote

Wai an ce laifi tudu ne sai ka take naka ka hango na wani.
You men are so fond of quoting the hadeeths at women to explain to us where we are wrong or where we are failing to follow the sunnah of the prophet. What about you men? Are u following the sunnah of the prophet? Did the prophet advocate a western style of leadership? Isnt that what u men are so thick as thieves with, that you fight and kill each other to attain a position in a secular westernized politcal system? Isn't there not supposed to be a rat race for the leadership? Isn't leadership in Islam supposed to be given to the one with the best conduct, best understanding of shari'a, the Qur'an and etc? Is it happening? Where is the caliphate system whereby all muslims of the world should be under the umbrella of one Who are these Western scholars? I really would like to know Caliph?

How can you say we ignored our wrongdoings? when we all have a consensus that the leadership(who are men) of this nation has failed us. You proposed that the leadership be handed over to women for total overhaul, but we are saying that can only aggravate the problem. The burden of leadreship is so enormous that women can't effectively combine it with their God Given responsibilities, it is better for you to stick to your responsibilities as mothers, caretakers of our homes etc, that alone is enough a burden, we did not give such responsibilities, so you cant blame us for reminding you. As hausa's say  'Taura biyu basa taunuwa' or  'Ba'a gudu ana susa duwaiwai'. How i wish you watched a program on CNN, titled, International Correspondent, where a woman narrated how she mercilessly left her five month old baby for media coverage during the Bosnian war, isnt that nonsensical? Only God knows the trauma the innocent baby went through as a result of his mother's stupidity.

Quote

Barde wrote:

Let me leave you with another Hadith "when your rulers and caretakers are wicked and your rich are misers, and your affairs are looked after by the women, then your death is better than life."


Right on target there, Barde. 'When ur rulers and caretakers are wicked... ' Right; who are the caretakers?
Men.
'when ur rich are misers... '

Who are the controllers of the wealth in Nigeria for example?
Men
Isnt that an indictment on men?
and hasnt it ever occured to you that if you men had done what the prophet had told you to do in the first place, the women may not have come out clamoring for change? If u men had not engaged in the most stupid wars and literally brought down a country to its heels, there wouldnt have been an Ellen Sirleaf Johnson to salvage the mistakes made by men; there wouldnt be a Doris Akunyili, if the men who were in her position had done the job they were supposed to do.

Yes it is an indictment, but i repeat, the solution is not for women to takeover. Review my postings for my opinion on the way forward.

Quote
Who are these Western scholars? I really would like to know

Lionger,
I can't remember them by names but they all expressed their views after the survey i mentioned earlier.

Quote


Many mothers feel more able to contribute to a family by bringing in the extra income that work will give her and, aftet the children are a little bit grown, that is a popular choice of many in the "West".

Dave,
Most women down here too are working with the same excuse but most of them recant as soon as the money starts to flow. Though am not married but i have seen so many situations where a wife demands for refund of every kobo she spents in the absence of her husband, in some cases they even refuse to buy anything untill the husband comes back.

Quote

I can see no reason why men should think they alone are the ones to make these decisions about their wives lives.
That is the core of this issue. Have women the right to hold opinions and are their opinions as valid as mens' opinions?

You can never see the reason, because we are on a different platform entirely.  The conditions for marriage is that the husband must provide food, shelter, clothing, dowry etc how can he then not dictate how his house should be? Mind you, our marriages are entirely different from the companionship that is common in your societies.

Barde
I am very aware that attitudes to marriage are very different in different parts of the world.
Also that most women freely accept the constraints that are common in their societies as regasrds to their rights and their behaviour in marriage.
It is only in the last century that women in most of Europe have achieved the rights they now enjoy and some parts of Europe are very far behind in this.
I'm afraid I find any suggestion that women should not have exactly the same rights as men very offensive.
I don't believe any balanced interpretation of any of the world's major religion can be used to justify denying women the right to make their own life choices.
Most of the rules against women's freedom don't come from God or Allah. They come from men who like to have things all their own way.

Barde,
How many men  adequately keep their wives provided with all the necessities they require? How many men bother to do so at all?  You said earlier that women work under the excuse that they contribute to the household economy. Well its not an excuse it is the result of the incapacity of the men to step up to their God Given responsibilities of being the economic providers of the home. And then u said that once the money starts to flow, women demand refund for every kobo spent. For how many average Nigerian families does the money start to flow? The majority of Nigerian families will spend their productive years earning less than 50,000 per month. So how does that equate with enough - to - surplus money flowing into the family coffers for the wife to demand a refund? If you know cases of women who demand refunds for household expenses, it is because you live well above the poverty line. But since there are many more below the poverty line than above it, then your observations are not the general manner of things in the society.
There are no religious injunctions that prohibit women from going out and earning a livelihood. The only injunctions are limits to the sort of work a woman can engage in.....
....and since you are not married (never been probably), you cant know anything about it from the inside, therefore you have NO grounds to talk about it to ppl with many years of experience 8) ... so there!!!

Quote from: "Dave_McEwan_Hill"Barde

I'm afraid I find any suggestion that women should not have exactly the same rights as men very offensive.
I don't believe any balanced interpretation of any of the world's major religion can be used to justify denying women the right to make their own life choices.
Most of the rules against women's freedom don't come from God or Allah. They come from men who like to have things all their own way.

Women can make their choices only within the confines of islam, that is the standard. I still repeat we dont belong to the same environment and so you may not reason along the same line with us, what you consider as freedom, we consider it as savagery and what we consider as normal, you consider it as oppression. Islam regards Woman as a "precious Jewel" as one scholar opines, not  to be viewed by everyone. Her beauty and charms are exclusive for the only person that genuinely appreciates and loves her- her husband. Thus she is highly protected at all times.  Unlike the cheap, despised Woman of the West who is at the disposal of any lusty and lecherous man.  

One thing you should understand is that there are guidelines for marriage and the responsibilies of both the husband and wife is clearly explained. Man has full responsibility for the maintenance of his family. This is not only a moral but also a shari'ah. The wife is responsible for the care of her home and welfare of her family. She may express her views and suggestions on all matters but the best role she can play in keeping the marital free intact and strong is to recognize her husband as the person responsible for the running of the affairs of the family and to obey him even if his judgment is not acceptable to her provided he does not go beyond the bounds of shari'ah. Are men to deprive women their rights which was ordained by Allah? The Qur'an states, " Obey not those who over-step the limits (set by Allah)...." It is for her to recognise the husband as the head of the family unit, while the husband spares her from all struggles and worries so that she can give her full attention to the making of a home. The Prophet (SAW) states in one of his hadiths that "The best amongst you are those who are kindest to their wives." in another hadith, "The best charity is that , a man spends his money on his wife and children." also he mentioned in one of his sermons that "O people, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have right over you. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and comitted helpers."  

As you can see the word Freedom is relative, that is why in my opinion, you can't reason along what we are saying.

Quote from: "Barde"

Quote

Quote
Who are these Western scholars? I really would like to know

Lionger,
I can't remember them by names but they all expressed their views after the survey i mentioned earlier.

Hmm. I searched the internet for your quotes and the only places I found them intact was on Islamic websites, all of which credited  them to 'Western scholars'. I'm very curious to know who these scholars are cuz I find it hard to believe that such statements can be made in public without the very predictable and very loud media backlash.

Barde
All your quotes are sensible and laudable and there is no arguement with them.
None of them however confer the right of dominance to men over women and to imagine they do is to distort them.
I know a large number of educted and thoroughly emancipated Moslem women and they would find your views very offensive.

QuoteI know a large number of educted and thoroughly emancipated Moslem women and they would find your views very offensive.[/code]

Dave,
'Thoroughly emancipated'? you guys are not given Islam a fair treatment, you consider every bit of islamic injunction as old-fashined, violation of human rights etc, infact i consider the issue of the status of women in Islam as a worn-out propaganda against islam. Unfortunately, even some Muslims have become adversely affected by this falsehood and have begun to doubt the true Islam standpoint. I heard of some Muslims who are working tirelessly to 'modernized' some verses of the Qu'ran (waiyyazhubillah) on the ground that we've surpassed such an era.

Allah (SWT) has not given equality to man and woman as the 'Modernist societies' perceive it to be, but Has given equality to the difference in the creation,  Allah says, "Whosoever performs good deeds, Male or Female and is a believer, we shall surely grant him a peaceful and tranquil life, and we will certainly reward them for the best of what they did." And another Ayaat says, "And whosoever does deeds of righteousness, whether Male or Female, and is a believer, they will enter Heaven and not the least injustice will be done to them." Like i mentioned times without number, there are things binding on both parties and one of the things is for the wife to take charge of the home affairs, now tell me, how can she effectively discharge such a duty from her working place? she cannot be at her office and at the same time be in her house, if your companionship is silent over such duties, ours is entirely different. We also consider some of your attitudes as animalism but we neither condemn you nor impose our own belief over yours. True islamic teaching does not consider women taking care of the household activities as a violation of their rights and illiteracy but you consider it as such, its better you hold your opinion and i hold mine. And it is high time for you guys to leave islam alone.

Lionger

Quote
Hmm. I searched the internet for your quotes and the only places I found them intact was on Islamic websites, all of which credited them to 'Western scholars'. I'm very curious to know who these scholars are cuz I find it hard to believe that such statements can be made in public without the very predictable and very loud media backlash
[/code]

I did not quote from any Islamic website, the truth is that don't visit any Islamic website cose one can hardly differenciate between the genuine ones and those trying to subvert the religion. But do you know that there are attitudinal problems amongst children across the western world???



Husnaa,

QuoteHow many men adequately keep their wives provided with all the necessities they require? How many men bother to do so at all? You said earlier that women work under the excuse that they contribute to the household economy. Well its not an excuse it is the result of the incapacity of the men to step up to their God Given responsibilities of being the economic providers of the home.

As in every society, there are responsible and irresponsible men but you cant tell me majority of men dont discharge their duties adequately. What complicate everything is that you women of now adays impose so many things that are unnecessary as your priorities, for example, Majority of women can quarrel with their husbands for not giving them money for Ashobe, i hope you are not among :lol:.  The major economic responsibilities are food, shelter, clothing, anything outside these, will be at the discretion of the husband.

Quote

And then u said that once the money starts to flow, women demand refund for every kobo spent. For how many average Nigerian families does the money start to flow? The majority of Nigerian families will spend their productive years earning less than 50,000 per month. So how does that equate with enough - to - surplus money flowing into the family coffers for the wife to demand a refund? If you know cases of women who demand refunds for household expenses, it is because you live well above the poverty line. But since there are many more below the poverty line than above it, then your observations are not the general manner of things in the society.

When i said start to flow, i dont mean flowing as in water gushing from a tap or a fountain, most women dont agree to share their money no matter how meagre it is. They always assert that their money is solely to themselves while the husband's own is for them to share. It is always my opinion that women dont have any business working since they wont contribute financially, the husband always looses on two fronts, since they will definately leave the household activities unattended and yet dont contribute the little they earn. In some other cases wifes who contribute financially use that as derogatory statements against their husbands at the slightest provacation or if he decides to go for a second wife. Is that not so??? :?:  :?:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Quote
There are no religious injunctions that prohibit women from going out and earning a livelihood. The only injunctions are limits to the sort of work a woman can engage in.....

That will be perfect if you can effectively combine the two. Can you?

Quote
....and since you are not married (never been probably), you cant know anything about it from the inside, therefore you have NO grounds to talk about it to ppl with many years of experience  ... so there!!!

Oh yes i have never been married but am from a very extended family and one of the youngest, i know how my sisters are unfairly treating their husbands.  Don't tell me you are married :o  anyway, i hope you and other married women, if there are, have your husbands permission before contributing to this forum.

Quote from: "Barde"
I did not quote from any Islamic website, the truth is that don't visit any Islamic website cose one can hardly differenciate between the genuine ones and those trying to subvert the religion. But do you know that there are attitudinal problems amongst children across the western world???

Doesn't matter if you quoted from a website or not Barde, I just wish a name was put to those quotes. I'd like to know who these scholars are, esp. cuz i disagree with them! Lets look at those quotes again..

QuoteIn human history the periods which have been plagued with decay and degeration are those in which women have stepped outside their homes

Quote
I have firm belief that this world will transform into heaven if women shoud be content in cherishing their children and fulfulling their domestic responbilities.

I have serious issues with both statements. Outside of any hard facts and research, they are rather bombastic. Societal 'decay and degredation' is obviously a function of many things, not just the 'emancipation' of women. Therefore it will take much more than women living up to their domestic responsibilities to 'transform this world into heaven'. Statements such as the above do not really make sense under scrutiny.

Attitudinal problems among children in the West? Well there are such issues of course, but is it solely due to the absence of women in the home? I don't think so.

lionger,

I suppose, Barde was paraphrasing Prof Cyril Joad who said: " The world will be a better place if women were content to go back into their homes even if some lowering of standard of living is involved therein."

You can search for his name online, you will see the title of his books from which I'll give you the title to read and extract the quote. You'll also need to know who he is by checking for his profile online.

Also apart from him are scholors like Dr. Fulton Sheen who wrote Communism and the Conscience of the West. He too expressed similar  sentiments. Again there is also the thing about the 93 percent of women who want.....read for yourself here:


And so only now-given the choice-women in the West are choosing to stay home to raise their children. According to the United States Department of Agriculture, only 31 percent of mothers with babies, and 18 percent of mothers with two or more children, are working full-time. And of those working mothers, a survey conducted by Parenting Magazine in 2000, found that 93% of them say they would rather be home with their kids, but are compelled to work due to 'financial obligations'. These 'obligations' are imposed on women by the gender sameness of the modern West, and removed from women by the gender distinctiveness of Islam.

The above is from an article by a friend with the following identification:

Yasmin Mogahed received a B.S. in psychology from the University of Wisconsin-Madison. She is currently a graduate student in Journalism/Mass Communications at the University of Wisconsin-Madison and working as a free lance writer.

Well, all of the above was to prove the truth of what Barde was saying as you requested, not to give my own opinion about the issue. But I'll do just that if anybody wants to hear. :wink:  :wink:  :wink:  :lol:  :lol:

pls i will like to hear ur opinion waziri perharps i will learn one or two things. cheers

It is really unfortunate that our muslim women have been gripped by the fever of 'emancipation', as doctored by the West. What does that mean? I find it disturbing that our women failed to see that the whole idea of Women Liberalism/Emancipation was aimed at removing the toga of respectability Islam draped over the womenfolk. Being emancipated connotes the idea of someone shackled or prisoned. :roll:  I don't want to believe that's the situation our women are in. Must a woman be earning a living, or be financially/economically independent before she's respected? Is a working housewife a guarantee for a blissful and comfortable home/marriage? Family degeneration and marital collapse continue to rise in the West astronomically, despite their women working and 'liberalised'. Is that what we want? Allah (SWT) in His infinite mercy and wisdom has sent down a " division of labour" for the home; the wife to take care of the home front, children upbringing inclusive; while the man is charged with the responsibility of providing for the needs of the entire family. Are we questioning the wisdom of the above injuction by Allah (SWT)? Now how can a woman effectively discharge her duties from the working place? It is no surprise then that this days children lack proper upbringing, growing up un-cared for in a scattered home. Aren't we being a little hyprocritical here? If the man shirked his responsibility of providing adequately, to the best of his ability, then surely that does not in any way has to do with Islam, but the fallability of man, and he would answer for it. :!:  

What's even annoying is the way women hide under the guise of wanting to help the husband provide for the family, as the reason they must work! It's a farce, as I don't believe most of our women, or women generally, are that altruistic. Islam allowed women to work, agreed. But what type of work? How? And for what purpose? So 'yan uwana mata ku yi hattara. A bi a hankali dai, ka da rudin yahudu da nasara su ja mu zuwa halaka.

Quote from: "_Waziri_"lionger,

I suppose, Barde was paraphrasing Prof Cyril Joad who said: " The world will be a better place if women were content to go back into their homes even if some lowering of standard of living is involved therein."

Not so sure about that Waziri. For one thing, you do realise the huge difference b/w saying 'the world will be a better place if women...' and 'i have firm belief this world will transform into heaven if...' What's more, the Islamic websites I talked of earlier used Barde's exact words! Did they somehow manage to paraphrase Cyril Joad with the same words by mere coincidence? Doubtful indeed.

Ok,
Lionger you can provide mer with the links of those Islamic   websites you scrolled thru that I maybe able to verify the truth of my claim or otherwise.

dan mama,

I will give you my reasons on due course, right now my boss is on my neck with an uncompleted job for me to process.

Here you go Waziri:

http://www.allaahuakbar.net/womens/equality_and_status_of_women_in_islaam.htm

http://www.msapubli.com/affiliated/Html/categories/Jamiatul_ulama/ewomen.html

http://www.jamiat.org.za/isinfo/ewomen.html

http://www.knowingislam.8m.com/statuswomen.html

On closer inspection though all these websites have published the same article, so there is one source.

Ok lionger,

Hav seen the article several years back and I am convinced of my position that the author was wrong in mis quoting Prof. Cyril Joad. Thanx once again.

Hey!!!
you guys come back lets continue with this intresting thread.

Quote from: HUSNAA on September 29, 2006, 10:02:15 PM
Thank u Amira, Fateez for yr support.  :D With yr votes, we will have a landslide victory. Fateez VP, Amira, take over from ken Nnamani. Meanwhile Lionger, u become special advisor and minister for Men's affairs, and Zizo, Now how would u like a portfolio as ambassador at large and plenipotentiary? 8)

Barde,  :evil: I have reserved a cell for u at Abu Ghraib and U Muhsin choose between kirikiri and Guantanomo Bay. :twisted:

Bakan Gizo explain yrself first and maybe u can save yrself from the  treasonable assertion na kishiya.  :x We wont entertain any opposition parties here. We intend to fully implement the tazarce syndrome in this govt. For that reason, I am blacklisting Guest33 who is  already nominating someone else....  Expect a friendly visit from the secret service soon...... :evil:

Cool so when do we proceed??? ;D