By SHAFIKA MATTAR, Associated Press Writer
Thu Jan 25, 7:38 AM ET
AMMAN, Jordan - A Jordanian man fatally shot his 17-year-old daughter whom he suspected of having sex despite a medical exam that proved her chastity, an official said Thursday. The man surrendered to police hours after the killing, saying he had done it for family honor.
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A state forensic pathologist, who works at the National Institute of Forensic Medicine in Amman where an autopsy was performed, said in a phone interview that the girl had run away from home several times for unknown reasons.
Weeks ago, the girl had returned home from a family protection clinic after doctors had vouched for her virginity and the father had signed a pledge not to harm her, the pathologist said on condition of anonymity due to the sensitive nature of the case.
"The tests proved that she was a virgin," the pathologist said. The girl returned home only after her father signed a statement promising not to harm her, he added.
The father shot the girl four times in the head on Tuesday. On Wednesday, an autopsy was performed that again showed "she was still a virgin," the pathologist said.
Authorities have not disclosed the names of the father or the daughter or even their hometown, saying only that they lived in a southern province.
The crime is the first "honor killing" this year in Jordan, where many men consider sex out of wedlock to be an almost indelible stain on a family's reputation. On average, about 20 women in the country are killed by their relatives in such cases each year. Women have been killed for simply dating.
Global human rights organizations have condemned such killings and appealed to King Abdullah II to put an end to them.
In response, the government has abolished a section in the penal code that allowed for "honor" killers to get sentences as lenient as six months in prison. Instead, the government has told judges to consider honor killings on a par with other homicides, which in Jordan are punishable by up to 15 years in jail.
But attempts to introduce harsher sentences have been blocked by conservative lawmakers who argue that tougher penalties would lead to promiscuity.
Queen Rania also has called for harsher punishment for such killers
couple of questions:
1. Shouldn't this man be facing the death penalty?
2. What kind of a father shoots his own daughter 4 times in the head?
3. If this girl had dishonored her family, couldn't they disown her dishonorably without killing her?
4. Where will this girl go now after being murdered by her father? Paradise or hell?
5. Is it possible that even if she had sinned, if given a chance, could have repented and be forgiven by Allah (SAT)?
Quote from: NewEte on January 25, 2007, 07:33:35 PM
couple of questions:
1. Shouldn't this man be facing the death penalty?
2. What kind of a father shoots his own daughter 4 times in the head?
3. If this girl had dishonored her family, couldn't they disown her dishonorably without killing her?
4. Where will this girl go now after being murdered by her father? Paradise or hell?
5. Is it possible that even if she had sinned, if given a chance, could have repented and be forgiven by Allah (SAT)?
1. Yes
2. an insane father
3. is this a question or suggestion please?
4. Her burden goes to the father, as for paradise or hell, only God can say that.
5. Allah is All Forgiven, All Merciful
Lol Ete, havent u ever heard of 'honor killings?' practiced in the middle eastern countries...There was a special National Geographic program on it some yrs back. Its an atrocious practice. More on it later.
Actually Dan Borno, question # 3 was both a question and a suggestion.
What that man did was way too extreme. I see no joy or honor in this kind of action. It is sad all around.
Fathers are supposed to protect and love their daughters and not kill them.
Ete
This has nothing to do with Islam whatsoever. It is a middle eastern custom. During the time of the jahiliyya that is ignorance, before the coming of Islam, the pagan arabs used to bury their daughters alive because they considered it a shameful thing to give birth to a girl. (How they ever thought they were going to procreate themselves without women, I have no idea!!). Anyway when Islam came, the Quran categorically condemned this practice. There are several ayah (verses) in the Quran which deal with this subject.
I have always tended to feel that honor killings are an extention of this horrible jahiliyya practice, because certainly the men are never suffered with this kind of injustice and they are more likely to cause dishonor to the family.
So divorce it from Islam. It is not Islamic, it is abhorred in Islam and anyone praticing it or who has done it will certainly answer to Allah SWT one day.
Thanks for the explanation Husnna. I was not however linking this practise to Islam. You did point out that Islam condemns this pagan practise. I have also seen how Muslims totally loathe anything pagan.
My question then is why does this pagan practise still thrive in these middle eastern countries where Islam is vastly the law and way of life?
The other concern is this, the punishment for this kind of atocities is a simple slap on the wrist if that at all. I saw a documentary once also about honor killings where in Egypt, a brother had been selected by the family to kill his sister who had been raped by a man in that community. To me, that simply defies logic. Shouldn't this brother be enraged with the man that reportedly raped his sister? But he killed her in a most brutal manner as reported in the documentary. The authorities hardly raised a finger. The killer was even part of the documentary standing firmly behind his action. So if this is condemned as you say, why isn't there a serious penalty so as to prevent further such slayings from happening?
The other thing I saw in a documentary, and I am not sure if this was in Iran, was an incident where a female activits for women's rights was gang raped. It was alledged that the local authorities in that community passed a rape sentence on her. She was then put in a hut and four men were assaigned to assault her sexually. Afterwards, people gathered outside the hut and geered at the woman as she left after being assaulted. Have you ever heard of such a thing Husnna?
What baffles me, (and this is by no means an indictment on Islam) is why these things occur despite the strict moral tone that religon sets in those part of the World? One would imagine that such practise would be seriously dealt with.
This is one sad news.The father definately needs to be punished and he deserves the death sentence.
Quote from: NewEte on January 26, 2007, 03:02:43 PM
My question then is why does this pagan practise still thrive in these middle eastern countries where Islam is vastly the law and way of life?
Ete why does some people break the law and go to jail?
Answering that may help you understand why some muslims do what the do which is unislamic.
Myself, I am trying to find the logic in your puzzling question. First off, it is not a common practice elsewhere in the World to kill one's daughter simply on suspicion that the daughter is no longer a virgin.
You should re-read my question to Husnna because I am not sure you fully understand it.
We are not talking about someone stealing oranges from a kiosk here, or someone embezzling money. We are talking of taking the life of one's child.
Husnna described it as a pagan practice that predates Islam. But Islam is now supreme law and totally complete in all interpretations, etc. So how does pagan/heathen practice still thrive where Islam is so supreme? Why do the people that commit these atrocities receive very mild reproach or even go un-punished despite acting contrary to Islamic guidance of discarding pagan practice?
And yes, in most societies, when people commit crimes, they go to jail. They are made to pay for their actions. In this case however, the men responsible for killing their siblings are not punished. Explain that, and quit asking ridiculous questions as if my question was rhetorical.
Ete you know what your problem is? You like pointing finger at islam and muslims
in almost all your post.
Doing that outside not behind a computer screen may get you into trouble.
If you are fair and not trying to point finger at islam and muslim alone, then
the heading of this topic should be RITUAL KILLING!
It happened for different reasons in different culture:-
Ritual killing have undoubtedly occurred in the past in the form of human sacrifice,
and are still occurring today, for example in medicine murder.
In Chinua Achebe's Things Fall Apart from 1958, the author exemplifies African ritual murder demanded by an oracle, and to appease the Igbo goddess of fertility, Ani,
the protagonist has to kill his adopted son.
In the Aztec culture, the existence of human sacrifice was proven by blood
stains on the temples.
Serial killers are also known to perform ritualistic murders.
So you see mr ete such killing do happened not just honor killing.
And also every year, hundreds of Nigerians lose their lives to ritual killing, also known as headhunters.
These head hunters go in search of human parts-head, breast, tongue, sexual organs-at the behest of witchdoctors, juju priests, and traditional medicine men who require them for some sacrifices or for the preparation of assorted magical potions.
there have been several reported cases of individuals who were kidnapped, killed, or had their bodies mutilated by ritualistic in east, west and south nigeria.
Not to forget the desire of some in Nigeria to stone to death young women accused of adultery (but not the men involved).
Myselg, you are so totally wrong on all counts. This is not about pointing fingers at Islam. I think you confuse yourself even further with the explanations you are offering. This is isn't ritual killing. Read the article very well, and you'll see it is not ritual killing.
Your 'Things fall apart' example does not in anyway support your argument. What it suggests is that at one point, such killings were traditional practices of an era before it became outlawed with the coming of Christianity to the area.
Everyone that reacted simply condemned this act. You on the other hand are trying to present a defence or an explanation that does not hold water.
This particular incident occured in a total Islamic community where the Islam is the law. According to other people, honor killing (which is what this is) was an heathen practice condemned by the Koran. The question then is, why does such heathen practice still thrive despite the fact that Islam condemns the practice? Is there a simple explanation to this or not? That's all I am asking you since you butted into the discussion and falsely accuse me of targetting Islam.
i've read the initial thread by Ete and, frankly speaking,i can not find any word even remotely associated with islam,muslim,salam,aslam,salama or any derivative of the word muslim.There appears to be a logical fallacy of associanism here i.e Jordan=Arab which therefore equals muslim.However about 6% of the population of jordan is Christian and until Ete could comprehensively and conclusively prove that such an atrocious act was not commited by the christians, i would be constrained to assume that it is just another case of "blame it on the muslims".
Another angle through which you could view the issue,ie positivism, is by posing your question in reverse ie why is such practice not obtained in predominantly muslim populations of west africa,numbering close to 150 million or Indonesia the largest muslim country, or malaysia,or Saudi Arabia,or Gulf Arab countries or among chinese muslims (about 65 million according to the BBC),or the muslims of the present Russia and former soviet republic?
Or you could ask why do we have a "Reverend King" despite over 400 years of christianity in iboland or satan worshippers in UK and Italy where the religion even predates Islam in Arabia.I think this is what Myself is trying to explain.
To get a proper understanding of issues here, we need to make a clear distinction between a muslim country and an islamic country,Jordan for example could be termed a muslim country but not an islamic country because it is not governed according to the shariah.It operates a mish mash of laws derived from french laws and a watered down version of islamic personal law called the penal code(no thanks to Brits and their meddlesomeness).So they are not "totally islamic" nor is "islam supreme" in those countries.
Wa ma taufik illah billah
Please permit me to just post this article authored by Syed Kamran Mirza. This is not my article, lest I be accused of plagiarism. So for the record, this is a report on the subject of the discourse. The views expressed here ae not mine but those of Syed Kamran Mirza. You can find the entire article in this link;
http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMirza/honor_killing.htm
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Honor Killing": Is it Islamic?
by Syed Kamran Mirza
July 1, 2005
..... Islam has much to do with honor killing practices which only do exist amongst the Muslims of the world. Had it been un-Islamic practice, we would have seen some Muslim nations prohibiting such cruel practice by Sharia law. We have not seen any Muslim country did enact any such law to curve honor killing. We have seen innumerable cases of fatwas by Mullahs to prohibit alcohol drinking, pork eating or listening western music; but never ever heard any such fatwa against honor killing. Rather, honor killing has silent support from the devout Islamists of all kinds. Islamists condone honor killing silently! No wonder that the Al Skudsi bin Hookah (reported of Gazagejeera) so passionately said: "So there's no point saying honor killing isn't really part of our religion. Honor and Islam are inextricably bound; they are what give our life meaning. A strong religion demands we choose to maintain our honor."
One may argue that Quran does not say clearly about honor killing! Fact is there are plenty of things Muslims practice that are also not mentioned in the Quran. Stoning death also not available in the Quran. Yet Iranian Islamic government does practice stoning death by the decree of Islamic court. Afghan Taliban government did routinely practice stoning and flogging of adulterers. Most importantly, Quran did not create any scriptural instruction to ban the so called Arab tribal practice of "honor killing" either! Besides, if the honor killing was simply a tribal practice-then it would have been prevailed amongst the Arabs of all religions. There is no evidence to support that a Christian or Jewish family of Jordan or Palestine did practice honor killing.
Muslims who are stunningly devout and laden with Islamic superstitious beliefs do commit crime of Honor killing to fulfill their obligation of preserving Islamic ethics, and women chastity. The more a country gets fanatically religious the more frequent are honor killings (Pakistan is a perfect example). Islam has incorporated many pre-Islamic practices of Arab pagans (stoning deaths, flogging the fornicators, slavery, war booty, beheading the criminals, cutting hands and foots of thieves, many rituals of animal sacrifice, annual pilgrimage to Mecca etc.) and readily called them Islamic or Allah's laws. Honor killing is one such pre-Islamic practice of Arab pagans which has been practicing by some devout Muslim families of many good Islamic nations of the world.
Because of the fact that the "honor killings" do have silent support from Islam, the killers are given light sentences, sometimes with little or no jail time at all. The killers are primarily influenced by Islamic ethics, and mainly defend their act of murder by referring to the Koran and Islam. They usually justify their evil deeds by the directives set down in the Islamic ethical beliefs and principles. Koran is very strict and belligerent regarding how to control women's sexuality, and Islamic Law; Sharia, rules harsh punishments including lashing and stoning to death for women's voluntary sexual activities. And it is because of these Islamic elements of support, no Islamic government dares to enact any criminal law to ban this barbaric slaughtering of innocent family girls. Even then some Islamists will still say that "honor killing" has nothing to do with Islam; just the way they say "Islamic terrorism" has nothing to do with the so called peaceful Islam. Their hypocritical denial is utter nonsense and stupendously deceptive. I urge those Islamists to tell us why this "honor killing" never happens among the non-Muslim Arab families? They must also tell us-why no Arab and non-Arab Muslim government dare to make any strict law to ban honor killings in their land?
Denying the truth is tantamount to committing this heinous crime to humanity, and denying will never solve this chronic problem of Islamic nations. Only way honor killing can be stopped is to admit the truth (real cause), and stop controlling public lives by the draconian laws (Sharia) of Islam. Let there be a strict separation of 'Mosque and State' in every Muslim majority nation of the world. Honor killing will definitely cease to exist.
In reference to Alkanawi's response, honor killing has infact been recorded in all those places you mentioned, and Nigeria (an OIC member) is no exception. Honor practice is even reported to have occured in recent times in Europe, but in Muslim communities of Europe. In regards to Jordan not being a 'true' Islamic country, I think that's disrespecting Jordan right there. The argument sounds like a excuse for what happened and it also sounds like denial for the motivating factor for these killings. More recently, there has been an attempt at political correctness by the media by not specifically devulging the religious background of the individuals guilty of this ritual. I think the author Syed Mirza point addressed this in his/her writing.
I am not sure how Reverand Kings comes into this equation however. If this is a comparison, it confuses me. For one, Nigeria is not a Christian nation. It is rumoured to be an Islamic nation. The law of the land is the constitution and in some cases, Sharia. Reverend King was undoubtedly a perverted psycho who managed somehow to corn some very gullible people into believing that he infact was a church minister. Based on some testimony that emerged from his trial, any right thinking person would know right away that everything about that guy was wrong. A female witness testified that she used to serve the Rev. naked and perform sexual acts together with him. My question to these people would be, shouldn't the appearance of any inappropriate behavior be a red flag right away? Furthermore, if some of these victims actually read their Bibles or understood anything about their christian tradition, there is no way on earth, they should have been fooled by that mad man because nothing in the Christian Bible supports any of the improper events that took place in that church.
But here is the thing, the irresponsibility of King caused the deaths of some people, and for that, he was arrested, charged, tried, and sentenced to death. So there is punishment for irresponsible behavior in this case. But going back to honor killings in Islamic nations, guilty persons in this crime, simply walk free.
If you check the Jordanian constitution, article 2, it says "Islam is the religion of the state, and Arabic is the official language".
Article 28 subsection (e) states; No person shall ascend the throne unless he is a Moslem.
This all sounds like a very Islamic country to me. Now, Alkawani, you have tried to diss Jordan as some watered down moslem country not to be taken seriously, but some people here have said that Islam is all encompassing and so complete such that there is no doubt about anything. So there is no doubt that Jordan is a real Islamic nation. So my question stands, why does the honor killing (a heathen practice as described by Husnaa) still has root in societies where Islam is dominant and complete? Can the government not pass a law to ban such practice and proscribe very stiff penalties for those who violate that law?
Ete, who ever wrote that article is not a muslim. He is just posing as a muslim so that the article wont be regarded as another instance of islamophobia by non muslims, but he's totally confused the issue.
Honor killing has nothing to do with Islam. It is part of the cultural mores of the societies that practice it. Like I pointed out earlier, killing females was a pre Islamic phenomenon, and even this mirza gulam who ever (probably a kadiyani) has pointed that out. So it is rather contradictory of him to say honor killings have silent support from islam.
Honor killings usually occur in the rural areas of these countries where the ppl are illiterate and ignorant of both Islamic teachings and western philosophical thinking and where the modern world has not trickled down into their psyche, even if the modern world is part of their daily lives. If you research carefully Ete, you will find that the practice does not occur amongst well educated muslims, and by well educated, I mean those who are well learned in the religion of Islam, who know what Islam is and what it isnt.
Myself is trying to point out that christians and muslims alike and others partake in ritual killings even though they know that it is neither islamic nor christian, yet they do it. But no one by extension labels the practice as either Christian or Islamic, so why do u persist in trying to link Islam with honor killings?
Husnna ok, why isn't this practice banned outrightly? This is really my concern. It is not about indicting Islam. Can a supreme head in these societies not order an injuction banning this practise? Is this an unreasonable thing to hope for?
Old habits die hard Ete. This is something that has been happening probably silently in obscure areas which if it hadnt been for the advent of the internet, cable television and the decentralization of media outlets, we will never have got to know about, because they are not the general run of events in the countries that they occur. They are random incidences which are given a lot of news coverage because they are novel and exotic strange and grotesque to the western world.
There is no need for a supreme head to give an injunction because the injunction is already there in the Qur'an, that one should not one's female daughters, or kill anyone at all without just cause. All these ppl need is to be more educated in the religion that is all.
Quote from: NewEte on January 30, 2007, 01:53:39 PM
Please permit me to just post this article authored by Syed Kamran Mirza. This is not my article, lest I be accused of plagiarism. So for the record, this is a report on the subject of the discourse. The views expressed here ae not mine but those of Syed Kamran Mirza. You can find the entire article in this link;
http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMirza/honor_killing.htm
Ete after following ur web link, is now clear where you are getting your prejudice
ideas about islam and muslim.
Totally anti islamic site, purely set up to slander islam and muslim......
What do you expect from your enemy mr ete?
They claimed to be ex muslims, but for sure they are not, they are just
wearing a mask and claiming muslims names.
If you are that curious about this fascinating religion and want to know the truth
then forget about the cultures, the political issues and theses muslims who are
trying to defend themselves with no weapons and no accurate target and
read the Qur'an very carefully and the 40 hadith.
That what islam is all about, any practice which is not mentioned is the qur'an
then don't call it Islam, and anything confusing ask a scholar for clarification....
You may be amaze with ur finding mr ete.
I here include a website that may interest you, it was set up by Sheik Yusuf Estes,
an american who was once a priest.
You can get the entire qur'an in plain english there and also the 40 hadith.
http://www.islamtomorrow.com/
http://www.islamalways.com/
Myself kin yi kokari.If Ete does not really harbour any prejudice against a certain belief he should go to those sites with an open mind and we would be ready to discuss anything he wants.Amma ke ki ka kula shi ma.Maganinsa "kunnen uwar shegu".
Ete why post an article from an obviously anti-Islamic site, to prove your point on an Islamic forum? What a self-defeating move, what kind of response were you expecting? Surely not objective debate; it is more likely to provoke and anger Muslims whether there was actual truth in the article or not.
Myself, I browsed briefly through the Islam Tomorrow you provided. Quite some interesting material in there. Most Islamic websites I've visited have a section on Christianity and the Bible and I'm often disappointed at the shoddy level of Bible scholarship. I thought this site might be different given that Yusuf Estes was a former Christian minister, but again I was disappointed. I read an article on the site called 'Bible Compared to the Quran' written by Estes and Gary Miller - another former Christian preacher - and it contains in some cases very sloppy Bible research and a complete misunderstanding of Christian arguments. For people that were former preachers of the Bible, their arguments were rudimentary and very poor.
This is a bit of an aside, but I think it is high time Muslims started reading the Bible for themselves and not solely through the eyes of supposed Muslim Bible 'scholars' such as the above. Read their work if you like, but also read the Bible for yourself and see if what they say is true. Too many people do just the former and swallow their arguments hook, line and sinker, without doing adequate original research themselves. I have noticed that Barde and Waziri have been obviously guilty of this error, in my discussions with them. It's not good enough guys! If Ete's tactics really irk you then ensure that you are not making the same mistake about other faiths.
Lionger, I don't know why you are advicing people to read the Bible themselves. That's a dangerous proposition. Walid Shoebat, an ex-palestinian terrorist, made that mistake, and look at him now. He became a Christian and now appears on T.V , especially FOX, to speak negatively about his former beliefs, especially what he calls the lies that palestinians tell concerning their claims to Jerusalem. I think this dude even wrote a book.
Then there is that Bridgette Gabriel, a former Lebanese Muslim who did the same thing. She read the Bible. Now, she can't keep her mouth shut anymore....talking all over the place against Arabs. The way she carries on, you'd think she was a Jew.
Well, anyone that take you up on the offer had better be ready. They just might get what they weren't bargaining for.
Off the hook mr lionger!
This topic is not Christianity vs. Islam
or Christians vs. muslims, neither it is Qur'an vs.the bible.
Such topic will not be allowed here anyway.
Back to the topic which is islam, muslims, and honor killing, which your
brother ete is so desperate to find out why such thing happening in
the muslims community.
We try but failed to convince him, therefore the only place he can
find out the truth is the Holy Qur'an.
The unchanged Qur'an is one and only guide to entire muslims nation......
if you have doubt about any muslims action then read the qur'an. Is the
best place to find out not kano online.
I still hope he will go and read it for better understanding of islam
and the muslims.
We question nothing about anyone faith, therefore we need not to read
anyone book.
Everyone have the right to practice what he believe and we are suppose
to respect one another.
And Ete....... You got that from your Anti islamic web site which is
of course not true.
What do you expect from your enemy?
Hey hey guys, i have been absent for some days, and it seems the house is in a face-off: this issue is very simple, and i think we should all understand ourselves better.
Yes Myself the subject isn't about Christianity or the Bible; that's why I said my point was besides the main issue, though still important. And btw, such posts are allowed here; haven't you seen the debate I had with Waziri over the Bible a few months ago? Admin did not shut any of them down...
About honor killings: My opinion is that this largely occurs in certain Muslim and Arab societies in the Middle East and beyond. It is a serious probem in Pakistan, for instance. In addition to the ignorance of the perpetrators, the crass complacency of the governments of these countries is also chiefly responsible for the continued existence of this practice.