Assalamu alaikum,
Looking at the the many religious crises that occurred in Nigeria one could not but begin to ponder at why do these crises only start in some boiling places? Why JOS, Kafanchan, Langtang, Tafawa Balewa, Zonkwa, etc? I need to understand this please.
To my little understanding all these crises emanates from Cruelty from the majority to whom dubious democratic principles bestows power and chief propaganda to gain political relevance by chiefs of minorities. But there are also external factors that we may dwel on when the thread get going. :(
We were taught a course--Peace and Conflict Resolution last semester. I'll, inshaAllah, come up with 'something' when I get back. LOL ;D
Auntie Husnaa...
EMTL, maybe you should begin by going into the mosques and start by asking the clerics that have been known to issue reckless and genocidal order to their faithfuls and imploring them to carry out acts of violence against innocent people. In religious conflicts of past years, the reasons given for outbursts of violence by muslims was primarily that a non muslim disrespected Islam, defiled the Koran, or insulted the Prophet. That used to be the long standing claim and excuse to commit mass murder.
That sorry excuse soon lost sway (because it was dubious to begin with) and now, the excuse for violence is dubiously explained away as political conflict.
It does seem however, that this is an attempt to lay the blame elsewhere and save religion from getting a bad rap. We all know that the issue is not political. The monsters that carry out these killings do it in the name of religion and they are not shy to admit this fact. Explaining their actions otherwise is simply lying on their behalf, and that is wrong.
How can religious violence really be politics? When clearly in the conflict, there are Muslims singling out non Muslims and killing them? What is political about that? A political problem demands a political solutions does it not? If the problems are political, how come they are not addressed in a political context and resolved in such a way that a repeat of such violence is prevented in future? This is not to say that some political opportunists have not seized the religious tension between Muslims and non Muslims to further their agenda, but that kind of manipulation is only possible because of the existence of very strong religious intolerant sentiments just waiting to be fanned.
I think the best way to address this issue is to have a very candid and open discussion about it on a national forum. Just ignoring this problem, avoiding it, or even rationalizing it is extremely dangerous and very capable of splitting the country eventually. We need to have special punitive laws for religious intolerance...laws that impose very harsh penalties on culprits of violence, and their sponsors. Religious organizations that promote violence in any shape or form should be shut down and the those inciting hate should be prosecuted to the maximum. There should be zero tolerance for religious violence, and I believe if that kind of serious attention if focused on this ugliness, it may just begin to deter those those that instigate such conflicts. The fact is this problem is a cancer that has been allowed to fester for so long and ignored beause past leadership either silently endorsed it or were just so inept in their responsibilities of safeguarding the public.
Now, if on the other hand Muslim individuals in whose backyard these incidents occur oppose any kind of investigation, open discussion, dialogue, or take responsibility, then the next discussion to take place ought to be about the continued existence of Nigeria as a corporate entity. This discussion becomes necessary because it makes no sense if within a country, radicals of one faith increasingly fan the flame of religious intolerance and use whatever pretext to murder innocent people without consequence. There is no way humanly possible I would want to continue living with such neighbors for there is no telling what might set them off and when it might happen.
@Usman11
Why you heaped all blames on Muslims? Your words simply say Muslims are the primary instigators of every-single ethno-religious dispute ever occured on Nigerian soil, which is apparently untrue.
This is a unanimous fact that you are utterly and shamelessly biased and too critical on Muslims. Be a bit more fair when next you come to xpress yourself, it doesn't hurt, does it?
I therefore feel its futile and waste of time to respond to your 'accusation' of Muslims.
Bye.
Quote from: usman11 on January 22, 2009, 10:01:47 PM
EMTL, maybe you should begin by going into the mosques and start by asking the clerics that have been known to issue reckless and genocidal order to their faithfuls and imploring them to carry out acts of violence against innocent people.
You only assume that what you (the christian) have been preaching your churces (violence and hatred) are what also the Muslims do- you are wrong.
Your problem is you do not have manners and write carelessly calling people names,etc. I pray Alla9 SWT) to guide you on His rightous path and stop this childish responses to issues raised in this forum.
My dear friends EMTL and Muhsin, there is no need to be upset and to withdraw from this dialogue. If my commentary is wrong, then you should set the record straight by countering my submissions with facts. I am open to corrections. EMTL, the notion that I write carelessly and call people names that are unwarranted, is untrue.
I have no called you or Muhsin any names. I have rightly referred to the fanatics that commit crimes against humanity as Monsters. I have also used names like genocidal maniacs. Those are appropriate labels for people that take it upon themselves to senselessly kill innocent people and ruin lives. How would both of you describe someone that or a group of people that constantly go on a killing rampage? Would describe such people as saints? Would you describe such people as men with outstanding character? How would you describe someone that slits a man's throat with a knife, or sets a house on fire killing an entire family? Would such a person or persons qualify in your books for a nobel peace prize?
If I lay most of the blame on Fanatical Muslims (not all Muslims), then I do so based on a history of religious violence in the region. If i point accusing fingers at one group of people, it is because there is a pattern of violence associated with this group of people that was never held in check, no accountability, no one held responsible.
A few days ago, many of you were on this site referring to Israel as a criminal nation. Many of you were so outraged by the images you saw of Gaza, and heaped all the blame on Israel. Do you recall that? Some of you even ventured to rope President Obama (then President-elect) into a conflict that clearly had nothing to do with him, and called him all sorts of names in the process.
So my question then (if we are to be fair as Muhsin demanded) who has been responsible for the many outbreak of religious violence in Nigeria? Is it the animists? Is it the Christians? Is it the Krishna's?
If non Muslim groups are the culprits, I would have no problem in stating that fact loudly. I am not being critical of World wide Muslims, I am critical of the Nigerian Muslims that have consistently been partakers of this senseless crime against humanity.
EMTL, my response to issues raised on this board is far from childish, controversial maybe or even offensive to some people, but it does hit at the issues that many people like you would rather avoid by sweeping under the rug and pretending they do not exist. Now, that kind of handling of issues is what is childlish and ill adviced, but definitely not my writing.
So, I do look forward to hearing from both of you after you rethink your decisions to withdraw from this discussion. Till then, have a wonderful day.
We the moslems are never ashamed of our being moslems, and will forever be moslems.....there is no power on earth that can stop us from practicing our religion. and we do not envy others their own. For instance, there is nothing in christian doctrines that makes it OBLIGATORY for christians to go to Israel and perform "pilgrimage" But our brothers and sisters in christianty took it upon themselves to undertake such exercise to Israel because the moslems do so to Saudi. A former Israel ambassador, one moshe arets or something like that, during the IBB regime, once expressed misgivings about Nigerians going to his country for an unknown exercise. and making it a means of getting out of the country. But the Nigerian Government formed a similar body for the christians, ie, a Pilgrims welfare Board so that there will be equal treatment to all.
Check newspapers that publish lists of successful candidates into either immigration, police, airforce, customs, prison warders etc, there you will see the crass maginalization of the moslems. Dispite having ably qualified candidates in States that are clearly having moslems as majority, you find that they are just being denied entries. No one raised a finger or shouts foul.
Again, even placement into universities that are Federal, you find that the moslems have to contend with a very few universities. Go to the South and check records of students of northen extraction that are moslems and you will find that there are almost none. But contrary to what is obtained there, here in the north, universities are filled up with southerners, some even with dubious qualifications. If you say the northerners lack qualified candidates for admittance into universities before, I will agree, but certainly, NOT now!
Now, if we are borrow a leaf from other countries that take religions only as something of the individual, and never making it a subject of animosity and bias against other religion followers, our country would have been a better place to live in. We all know that in the U.S, there exixts a mosque in the white house since time immemorial. Another one exixts even in the Capitol! But here, a mosque located in an office is seriously detested by our christian brothers, despite knowing that it is obligatory for all moslems to pray five times a day. Afterall, these prayer sessions hardly take more than five minutes to accomplish each.
As a moslem, my religion does not allow me to discredit any other religion's prophet or to destroy a religious book. But we are all living witnesses to what one Gideon Akaluka did with the Koran. Look at what cartoonists in Demark did to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) Is that not irreligious in itself? Think my brothers, do you cherish hurting others' feelings?
I think for us to move forward, is for all us respect one anothers religion and live according to the provision of the Constitution, that provides that any Nigerian has the right f worshipping anything and any where he finds himself in the country. We must also accept each other the way we are and not how we want others to be.
On the part of the Government, it should endeavor to be fair in conducting such recruitment exercise so as to accommodate all, especially by conducting such exercises in the Local Government Headquaters of the country. Gentlemen, I rest my case here.
May Allah SWT forgive our sins, amen.
Waduz, you have completely deviated from the theme of this discussion. You need to re-read what I wrote and understand the issues raised in this commentary. You have thrown in so many other not so relevant arguments to the dialogue. I will try to respond to some of the points you've made later on. Thanks for your reaction though.
Waduz, I am back to continue from where I left off. I did promise that I would address some of the issues you raised, and so here it is. I did say previously that you completely veered off course in regards to the subject matter of this discussion. The issue is not about pride in your religious belief, neither is it about religious freedom. Your right to practise your religion are (i hope) enshrined in your constitution. There has never been a time in Nigeria's history that I recall where Muslims were prevented from the free practice of their faith. If you know of such a time, please enlighten me with the date and year it occured. But the fact that some Nigerian Christians visit Israel for is not a sign of envy or an attempt to copy Muslims who embark on a yearly pilgrimmage to Mecca. Yes, Christians are under no scriptural obligation to visit Israel, but as far back as the 2nd Century and even earlier, Christian faithfuls had visited Jerusalem for its historical significance, its cultural importance, and its commercial prowess.
Here in America, many Christian and Jewish organizations have teamed up to form excursions. Some of these excursions are called Holy Land experience. The Israeli tourist board plays an important role in this program because it helps support and expand tourism in Israel. The excursions are not pilgrimages by Christians but tourist experience for groups of Church organizations, students of history, and anyone else that desires to tour Israel and experience what life was like during the time of Christ and the apostles. Nigerian Christians are no different from these other Christians that desire to take a tour of Israel. It is not a pilgrimage, but a tourist experience. You erroneously assume that others are in competition with Muslims for going on what you assume to be a 'pilgrimmage'. If the government of Nigeria sponsors Christian pilgrimmage to Israel, then the government is totally wrong in its sponsorship. Christians desiring to visit Israel should do so at their own expense. No single public money should be WASTED on either Christian or Muslim Pilgrimmage. Do you agree?
I think Muslims should visit Mecca as their religion orders them to. That is their religious right. I do however totally disagree in the Federal or state sponsor of those religious activities. People wanting to go to Mecca or Israel should fund their own trip and not one penny of government money should be spent to assist them financially. The other issue you raised about disproportionate university enrollment figures between northern and southern students is not due to any kind of conspiracy. Studies show that that has always been the case going back to when the nation was divided by regions. The Western and Eastern regions of the country under the respective leaderships of Late Chief Obafemi Awolowo and Late Dr. Nnamdi Azikiwe, invested heavily in education in those formative years. Those great men layed the foundation for what you see as disproportionate college enrollment or graduation. Listen, you cannot always blame your problems or failures on someone else. At some point, you need to take a honest look at things in their proper perspective and take responsibility, and that my friend is the point I've been trying to make from the beginning of this discourse.
Regarding the 'desecration' of the Koran by one Gideon Akaluka, you have to be specfic as to what he did with the Koran. If it is the same incident I think you are talking about, there are different accounts of what this man supposedly did. One story claims he drove over a copy of the Koran. Another story claims he defecated on the Koran or used its torn pages to wipe his behind. I wonder what would compel any man that lives in such a sensitive and religiouly charged community to tempt fate like that knowing fully well the history of violence in that area for far less 'offense' against Islam. This is why I seriously doubt the claims. But more questionable is the action of Muslims over the Danish Cartoon saga. The incident in question happened in far away Denmark, and has nothing to do with Nigeria or Nigerians. So explain to me why Northern Muslims will then inflict casualties on innocent non Muslims over the grievance of their prophet being portrayed rudely? Did the Nigerian Christians and other non Muslims play any part in offending their Muslim neighbors? Does my argument make sense to you? This is about senseless violence, intolerance(whether provoked or not), genocide, chaos, lunacy, etc. that continues unabated. Take responsibility for your actions. The question is why is there such intolerance in your community? Why is there such lack of civility when a percieved insult is hurled at your Prophet? These are very important questions because adherents of other major religions do not display the same irrational behavior at the slightest irritation.
Usman, I believe we are going somewhere. I deliberately deviated from the actual topic so that I could make the topic more "Nigeran" You see, my brother, unless we grasp what is happenning here about the conduct of our two great religions, we cannot have the moral justification to venture, rather, crudely into Israel-Palestine embroglio. I must say, that you started showing maturity and understanding, especially in your choice of words now. I thank you for that. I do NOT for once, like calling any one names of hurting their feelings. Please do kindly understand that before we go any further.
Religions are supposed to be matters that concern morals, spritual guidance and beliefs, tolerance, humbleness and respect to the supernatural being. In this country, it is true we exhibit a lot of intolerance and disrespect to our religions and tenets. Simply put, we throw away religious sanctimonies and become possessed by devil, while claiming to be "the most religious nation on earth! How religious, you could say!"
Let me tell you something about government sponsoring of pilgrims. In one of the States, the wife of the Governor gave a preacher a seat for him to go and perform Hajj. The preacher sent back the offer, telling the Governor's wife that he was returning it because she used the people's money (govt funds) and not her's, and that unless she asks permission from the entire citizens of the State that she was going to offer him the seat, and they obliged her to do so, before he accepts her offer! The man instantly became a celebrity for his boldness and also for saying the stack truth. The fact that our christian brothers are embacking on pilgrimage, excursions or tourism is allright, nobody begrudges them. But, you find out for us, why they call themselves JP after coming back from Jerusalem. The JP is short for Jerusalem Pilgrim and is generously written after their names. My good christian friend and neighbour also proudly displays it and I jokingly call him JP.
The issue of Gideon Akaluka occured in Kano and I do not need to delve into what Kano is to Islam, I believe you should know. Kano is the most populous city in Nigeria today and is about 99% moslem. Being tumultuously populate, it naturally has a strong commercial activity which ofcourse attracts various types of dealing in merchandise and people from almost all parts of the globe. Any other way of life in Kano apart from Islam is viewed as alien. All strangers are allowed to freely worship in their churches and shrines. Infact, I can confidently say that there is no State in the north that you can find more churches than Kano. You can easily see how tolerant the people are. The area moslems mostly, and rightly too, is that "let them do their own, and we do our own." For centuries christians have been living in kano peacefully and have been domesticated there. But people like Gideon Akaluka, who might just come to kano then, decided to malign moslems and their Koran, which, of course, attracted a sponteneous reaction.
For the lack of civility in moslems reacting to insults on our Prophet, as you asked, and if I may ask, also, why should those insults be hurled on the person of our Prophet, in the first place? Have you, my friend, ever heard or seen or heard about a moslem insulting any of the Prophets of God? You see, after 911, christian super powers took it upon themsleves to halt terrorism which they errorneously believe was encouraged by Islam, and with America in the forefront, a brazen, unplanned war was waged on perceived enemies. Why was 911 planned and executed? Let tell you, and make it abundantly clear that, no right moslem is allowed to kill himself and others, at all. The perpetrators of that dastardly, devilish and aborminable act could be moslems just by name and not by heart. A good moslem must have the fear of God and respect for the sacredness of human lives. The milk of pity and compassionateness, is flowing abundantly in the heart of moslems. Ironically, like the others, the whole lot might not be the same. The powers that be, should give serious thoughts and reflections as to why those "moslems" were doing what is percieved as terrorism.
I will disagree with you on education. You see, there is no being that nature has not been endowed with the ability to study and put indelible mark on the turf of knowledge. What I am saying is that the opportunity to even go to a university by moslem northerners is being limited to some universities in the north, while the southern universities hardly admit any one from up north to study there. When the late Sani Abacha, of blessed memory, appointed Dauda Birma as his education minister, some newspapers from the south appeared with headlines condemning the appointment, believing that the man was a stack illiterate. One particular paper had its title thus, "Another Mallam has made it!" unknown to them that the "Mallam" holds a bachelors degree in english. What I am trying to point out here is that, some of our country men believe that only them have monopoly of knowledege, while the others cannot make it.
I do not like to harp on moslems being stopped from saying prayers because it might be untrue as I did not witness it personally. But here it is anyway. A trailer vehicle carried cement to langtang in Plateau State and after off loading, the driver and his two motormates did abolution and are about to start the noon prayers when some Langtang people came and stopped them saying you cannot do this thing here. The driver and his boys had to pray inside the trailer body. It could be true or not, but it might something similar might be going on some how. You can call this religious intollerance, and that is what we need to educate the vast majority of our people on.
Thank you.
EMTL, Waduz i believed you won't understand each other, just ku barshi kawai. But we (Muslems) know that we are always on the right way.
Ubanjigi yasa mu dace.
My good man, Mr. Waduz, I thank you for your very expansive response. I absolutely enjoyed reading your comments, and I took notes of many points you made. While I may not be able to react to all you said, let me just say this, I agree we are going somewhere with this dialogue. This is why I support open dialogue where concerns are extensively discussed. There are people that think by avoiding some conversations, they are allowing peace to reign. Nothing could be further from the truth. If you do not dig in and communication, you can never get to the root of any problem. If you continue to sweep things under the rug, eventually, those things will escalate. So it is prudent to address issues no matter how difficult or unpalatable the issues may be. This is an attitide that is seriously lacking in all of Nigeria, and this attitude impacts why our nation is where it is today.
Having said that, my view of Jerusalem visitors, 'pilgrims' or whatever name they choose to identify themselve with is was very clearly stated in my previous post. Many Europeans visit Israel yearly, and they do so for many reasons as I listed previously. Some colleges here in America have partnerships with Hebrew University and other institutions in Israel and as such, student exchange programs exist.
Those Nigerians that visit Israel and upon returning add a prefix to their names, are just being typical Nigerians. There is a lot of ignorance in Nigeria as you may well know. The pursuit and acquisition of meaningless titles is just one of such ignorance that serve no purpose other than to boost the individuals ultra ego and self worth. I have not personally seen or heard anyone attaching JP to their name, but my assumption will be that they are simply copying their Muslim brothers who upon from returning from Hajj, adopt the title of Alhaji or Alhaja. Now, maybe you have a different take, but my understanding is that the term Alhaji/Alhaji is a term of endearment for visitors to Mecca. Now, this was what my Saudi friend told me. Now, I also know that there are other West African Muslims that visit Mecca to perform Hajj, and do not use the Alhaji/Alhaja prefix. So my conclusion is that it is a purely Nigerian invention given our fascination witn vain acolades.
What I said initially about public funding for religious activities is an opinion that I still stand by. This in no way restricts the individual's right or freedom of worship. Regarding the first lady that obtained a seat for a cleric on flight to Mecca, her action (if public fund was misused) is a violation. I think she should have been investigated and reprimanded immediately, and the cleric was right for rejecting the offer. I doubt however though that she took the cleric's advice to seek permission from every native of the state and obtained every single person's approval. That is not plausible given the possibility that non Muslims reside in the state as well, and most likely would have declined the public funding of a cleric's hajj trip. But I do get the picture of what you are trying to say. This is why laws have to be written very clearly. This is why issues ought to be debated openly and extensively, and then put to vote. Now, if state law allows for funding of religious activities as defined in state constitution, then there wouldn't even be an argument there.
In regards to people insulting the Prophet of Islam, I think they should have enough sense to avoid hurling insults at the Prophet. I think they should be more sensitive to people's religious figure whether or not they believe or agree with who or what those figures represent. Having said that, you and I should also keep in mind that there are millions of people in Nigeria, and perhaps billions world wide, that could careless about religion. Christianity and Islam are just two of the World's old religions amongst many others. There are aetheists out there that just hate the idea of GOD. They do not believe in God or any organized religion for that matter. These people have no problem mocking religion as long as the law protects their right to free speech. In Nigeria, there are similar people, Christians and no Christians that would casually speak of the Muslim religion intended or non intended. Trust me, Christianity more than Islam suffers a greater proportion of public ridicule from anti christian groups and individuals. The question is what is to be done? Is the solution to brutally eliminate those people? No, we cannot. We are people governed by laws. We are not animals, and if we encounter people with a dose of contempt for our belief, we ought to quite frankly pray for them that God guides them to light. This is the beauty of religion. This is what mine encourages me to do. It does not order me to immediately strike anyone that mocks God or Christ. That would be very easy to do, but the greater and more challenging thing to do is, is to show that civility and compassion that you spoke about in your response. We need to see more of that kind of action rather than chaos at the slightest provocation.
Now, the idea that the presence of multiple Churches in Kano point to the people's tolerant characteristic is not an accurate assessment of tolerance. If there is religious freedom as you say, then religious centers are likely to exist because they law allows them to operate. So this has nothing to do with tolerance. The churches are simply exercising their right to function. You measure religious intolerance by the number of religious incidents in an area, and by identifying the culprits of those incidents. In reference to Gideaon Akulaka, the Muslims acted irresponsibly and should be held to account. As you say, this individual maligned the Koran. Maybe he even insulted the Prophet, but what happend thereafter? 100 people or more lost their lives for something they had no part in. Do you not see the problem with that? Why not sue Akaluka for defamation? Why not just run him out of town and ordered never to return? Why commit genocide? why not just settle grievance in our court system, and if we feel we need to amend the constitution to safeguard religious icons, why not do it through the legislature? Is that not the proper an sensible way to handle things?
You may disagree with me on education, but you should take to look hard at the facts. Realize though, that the North has always almost acted sovereign in the conduct of its affairs. 96% of the leadership of the country have been of Northern Muslims Origin. The Ministerial leadership have always had significant Northern Muslim candidates. Federal allocation of resources have always tilted to the north because they have more states than they can manage. Population as you say tilts towards the north and this makes for a compelling argument during resource distribution. So given all these advantage, who do you think is responsible for the imbalance in education?
I do not know much about Dauda Birma, but if as you say, his academic background consist of just a B.A in English, then I think the media was right in the criticism of his appointment. My brother is a School District Superintendant in the State of Georgia education system. He has Phd in Education Leadership and as well as in Management information system from Georgia Tech. University. Before becoming Superintendant, he was a teacher for several years, then an assistant principal, and then a Principal. His experience in public school administration and policy is vast and extensive because of the many capacities he has served in the county, the district, and at the state level. He is also a University Professor of graduate studies at Georgia Tech. He is just one amongst many Nigerians in America and perhaps Europe that possess that level of qualification that is needed to help reverse the misfortunes of our education system. My point is, most administrations in Nigeria appoint people into very important offices not based on merit or common sense, rather on ethnicity or even religious sentiments. The implication of these types of appointment have far reaching consequences. We are witnessing those consequencies now where education has not progressed, where students rely on cheating to gain admission to higher institutions, where teachers have other side businesses to supplement their incomes, etc.
I was reading today that a South South group is protesting President Yar-Adua's appointment of Niger-Delta oversight committee because of the northerners on board the committee. They are also protesting the appointment of a Northerner as Minister of Petroleum, as well as the lopsided Ministerial appointments in Yar-Adua's government. What are your thoughts on that?
You've got to agree that Abacha was not the sharpest tool in the box and his Presidency was not a good era in Nigeria's history. Abacha's took over power by force. Was never elected by the people, but then went on to destroy the country's finances, and other institutions further than the bad shape they were in. Now, look at the level of Nigeria's education sector? Last year, the papers reported a National failing average of 83% of students on WAEC exams. Does this staggering failure concern you? This is what happens when a country descends so low, and education is either put in the hands of unqualified, untested. and unproven people. Or, this is what happens when the government becomes too consumed with other activities and ignore education. Both IBB and Abacha regimes waged an endless 'war' with educators who simply demanded for better working conditions, better facilities, better incentives. Rather lend a ear to the legitimate concerns of the very bright scholars our nation had taken years to mold, the government ignored, threatened and even imprisoned many. Now, see what has become of education in Nigeria. If it is of any consolation to you, do not worry too much. The standard of education natiowide is at an all time low. The north is not really missing out on much.
I find this discourse painful.
In my fifteen years in Nigeria I noted that both sides in this debate included zealots who did harm in the name of their religion to persons of different religion.
And many on both sides were always looking for fault in others, while seeing no fault in their own people.
And many unscrupulous people told big lies and caused trouble and violence.
I had many friends and colleagues, Moslem and Christians and very nice people most of them were and I was completely surprised what utter nonsense these good and nice people were able to believe about others who were obviously good and nice people but were of a different religion.
Usman11,
I felt I was reading a different thread. Any way, I will, inshaAllah, respond to your (initial) question to me when I get back.
Carry-on big fellows. Enjoyed my reading of your commendable posts--Waduz and Usman11.
Quote from: usman11 on January 23, 2009, 05:13:05 PM
So my question then (if we are to be fair as Muhsin demanded) who has been responsible for the many outbreak of religious violence in Nigeria? Is it the animists? Is it the Christians? Is it the Krishna's?
Usman11,
I perused your well-written response as well as the question you posed. Very constructive. I had to say so, although it's hard to praise a 'foe' especially on battle field. ;D
Following that, I went over my Peace and Conflict Resolution textbook and read it, though very quickly, for I feel it 'neccessary' to come up here and reply, after a short absent of two days. There I read about major conflicts since the 1980s, which is barely a span of three decades. I quite know some of these violents were under-reported or unreported at all.
What I so far understand (I'm trying to be as unbiasedly as possible) is;
1st;
Nigerian medias have lots to sholder. Media, as a double-edge tool, can help in either cooling off the conflict or escalating it. To sudai Nigerian ones, due to their unprofessionalism, help always in doing the latter--instigating and escalating it. Too bad.
2nd;
Muslims are not guiltier in kicking-off disputes than non-Muslims. They are, in fact, not even
that guilty except on a very few cases, contrary to your aimless and baseless accusation against us.
Exapmle include; Muslims backlash following Kaffanchan genocide of Muslims, another one in Kano after ethno-religious massacre of Hausa/Muslims at Yelwa-Sheldam, Shagamu upheaval, clash between Muslims and Christians over "Miss World" beauty pageant slated to be held in Abuja, which was ignited by
This Day newspaper, to mention but few. You too talked about Gedion, you called him? Who descreted on the sacred Quranic papers.
What I just believe is that; we might be aptly only be charged for "religious intolerence". And that, simply put, means our "retaliatory action" or "responsive" one towards provocative and thoughtless action always perpetuated by non-Muslims, e.g aforesaid cited examples, etc, etc, etc.
We always say; leave our prophet alone. He's unjokable, untouchable, leaveable and everything. We never toy niether we do tolerate anyone making fun of him. And so is our Qur'an and so on. But you never listen. Why? This is whats mostly degenerating conflicts between us.
Am afraid my time is draining away. Have to stop here. Sorry for my "laconic" reply. Think it says something.
Ciao!
Muhsin
Thank you Muhsin for your observation, and for your compliments. Thanks also for rejoining this dialogue even though you and EMTL had issued a joint statement of boycott previously. You can see through my exchange with Waduz that open and honest dialogue can lead to better relations bordering on understanding and mutual respect. I said before that such dialogue is lacking in Nigeria because people are so opposed to confronting difficult issues with sincerity. Others are too unwilling to leave their comfort zones to step out to unfamiliar frontiers.
I am not sure what to make of some individuals that expressed their pain over this dialogue. I would however advice those people suffering from pain that they do have a choice, and that it might be in their best interest not to read or participate in this discourse if doing so compromises their mental, phsysical, emotional, or spiritual health. They are not compelled to read anything here, and there is no law that mandates their participation in this discussion. If after this disclaimer is issued, they continue to read and their pain condition worsens and leads to death, neither Waduz nor myself can be held responsible for their demise. I think I've said enough about that, and therefore I shall move on.
According to your research, the one that goes back 30 years, you only found two incidents of religious disturbances? And those two were in the 80s? Right there, your claim lack credibility because the figures you've produced are grossly inaccurate. A fairer estimation of religious conflict is in the neighborhood of at least 1 per year. And no, I did not bring up the example to Gideon Akuluka. Waduz raised raised that issue but could not even recall the facts of the story, and we are still not sure. I do recall however several the claims made by the participant Muslims as to what ignited the conflict. One account claims that Mr. Akuluka drove over the Koran. Another claims he simply crapped on the Koran. Now, Mr. Akuluka should know better than to disrespect something that Muslims hold in such high regard. But like I said earlier, and you should pay attention to what I say, we are supposed to be a nation of laws arent we?
Our constitution is what we are governed by not the laws of the Koran, or of the Bible, or laws of any other religion. If someone breaks the law, then our laws should apply. What the Muslims did on that occassion was commit genocide, because their rage went beyond punishing Mr. Akuluka for his transgressions. They went on a killing spree which claimed no less that 300 lives. So you tell me, what exactly did mass murder of innocent people achieve? To think that you can even justify such horror is troubling. Why did 300-500 innocent people have to die for the 'sin' of one individual? Does that make any sense?
One of the things I have a problem coming to grips with is your casual justification of violence for any
unflaterring remarks about your prophet. You practicall equate your Prophet to God in terms of what is acceptable reference to him and what is not. The young reporter whose article over the Miss Universe beauty peagent sparked yet again, a religious incident, had written a piece in the magazine she worked for in which she opined that Prophet Mohammed would have approved of the beauty contest. What followed was fanatical chaos that resulted in hundreds of dead bodies. Again, the comments of one person, yet hundreds of non involved individuals lost their lives, and the responsible elements face no consequence. So, my question is this, what purpose do these killings and destruction accomplish? Is this all to appease the Prophet. Are you telling me that if the Prophet could witness what is being done in his name, he would approve of these events?
Let me give you another recent example. Last year or so, Danish cartoonists decided to create a cartoon of the Prophet. As usual, the cartoon caught the attention of some very angry Muslims, and it went downhill from there. Somehow, some Nigerian Muslims from the north overzealously ignited a religious riot that again claimed the lives of hundreds of innocent people that had nothing with Denmark or Muslims, or even the cartoons. What was the excuse this time? If their action as you say is retaliatory, why didn't the aggrieved muslims charter a plane and travel to Denmark? I am hoping you can explain this.
Assalam
I want Believe EMTL, the initiator of this thread hoped that an avenue will be provided by this forum to dwell on this social problem with the aim of putting heads together for a lasting solution. But it appears that some members were just given an opportunity to air their grievances and apportion blame. Their submissions looks much like that of an aggrieved party giving an account before constituted panel to investigate the crisis.
It appears more to me as if some wants use this medium to say what they want to say against ones religion. It is pathetic, and i condemned in strong terms the mis use of this forum by the partisan contributors to the debate.
If and end will not be put to this character assasination, then, one will insult the other's religion. And the whole essence of this forum has been grossly undermined.
I However commends the logic of Good fellows: like the initiator-EMTL, Dave_Mc ewan_Hill.
QuoteThank you Muhsin for your observation, and for your compliments. Thanks also for rejoining this dialogue even though you and EMTL had issued a joint statement of boycott previously. You can see through my exchange with Waduz that open and honest dialogue can lead to better relations bordering on understanding and mutual respect. I said before that such dialogue is lacking in Nigeria because people are so opposed to confronting difficult issues with sincerity. Others are too unwilling to leave their comfort zones to step out to unfamiliar frontiers.
Thank you too.
QuoteI am not sure what to make of some individuals that expressed their pain over this dialogue. I would however advice those people suffering from pain that they do have a choice, and that it might be in their best interest not to read or participate in this discourse if doing so compromises their mental, phsysical, emotional, or spiritual health. They are not compelled to read anything here, and there is no law that mandates their participation in this discussion. If after this disclaimer is issued, they continue to read and their pain condition worsens and leads to death, neither Waduz nor myself can be held responsible for their demise. I think I've said enough about that, and therefore I shall move on.
Your trickery and sophistry fascinate me. You infact had me laughing, thinking at how these fellows you kid might have reacted to your 'lamblast'. ;D
QuoteAccording to your research, the one that goes back 30 years, you only found two incidents of religious disturbances? And those two were in the 80s? Right there, your claim lack credibility because the figures you've produced are grossly inaccurate. A fairer estimation of religious conflict is in the neighborhood of at least 1 per year. And no, I did not bring up the example to Gideon Akuluka. Waduz raised raised that issue but could not even recall the facts of the story, and we are still not sure. I do recall however several the claims made by the participant Muslims as to what ignited the conflict. One account claims that Mr. Akuluka drove over the Koran. Another claims he simply crapped on the Koran. Now, Mr. Akuluka should know better than to disrespect something that Muslims hold in such high regard. But like I said earlier, and you should pay attention to what I say, we are supposed to be a nation of laws arent we?
Our constitution is what we are governed by not the laws of the Koran, or of the Bible, or laws of any other religion. If someone breaks the law, then our laws should apply. What the Muslims did on that occassion was commit genocide, because their rage went beyond punishing Mr. Akuluka for his transgressions. They went on a killing spree which claimed no less that 300 lives. So you tell me, what exactly did mass murder of innocent people achieve? To think that you can even justify such horror is troubling. Why did 300-500 innocent people have to die for the 'sin' of one individual? Does that make any sense?
I found many, actually. I just lack enough time at my disposal to talk at that length--expatiating on the cause, the consequences, the culprit, etc of each violence I read about. Didn't I write et cetera? Think I do, right.
And regarding that Mr Akuluka stuff, I don't give a damned what he did. You too, I very much think and even understand, believe that what he did was unwarranted and uncalled for. He in one way or the other carelessly defamed and marginalised Qur'an.
to put it in lesser degree. Then, what these Muslims did was right.
You talked of Nigerian system of law, i.e constitution. I don't think we should wait for that. LOL ;D He would only be put behind bars for few days. The other days you would see him walking, even with pride, on the streets. Tell me pls, whats the use of that?
QuoteOne of the things I have a problem coming to grips with is your casual justification of violence for any
unflaterring remarks about your prophet. You practicall equate your Prophet to God in terms of what is acceptable reference to him and what is not. The young reporter whose article over the Miss Universe beauty peagent sparked yet again, a religious incident, had written a piece in the magazine she worked for in which she opined that Prophet Mohammed would have approved of the beauty contest. What followed was fanatical chaos that resulted in hundreds of dead bodies. Again, the comments of one person, yet hundreds of non involved individuals lost their lives, and the responsible elements face no consequence. So, my question is this, what purpose do these killings and destruction accomplish? Is this all to appease the Prophet. Are you telling me that if the Prophet could witness what is being done in his name, he would approve of these events?
What Muslims tried doing was burning down the building of the newspaper, which their action did aptly call for. And in the course of doing so the violence erupted.
Let me tell you, no religion will ever condone such marginalisation and defamation. None on this earth. Thus, even the prophet would approve of our retaliatory action.
QuoteLet me give you another recent example. Last year or so, Danish cartoonists decided to create a cartoon of the Prophet. As usual, the cartoon caught the attention of some very angry Muslims, and it went downhill from there. Somehow, some Nigerian Muslims from the north overzealously ignited a religious riot that again claimed the lives of hundreds of innocent people that had nothing with Denmark or Muslims, or even the cartoons. What was the excuse this time? If their action as you say is retaliatory, why didn't the aggrieved muslims charter a plane and travel to Denmark? I am hoping you can explain this.
This very issue had had been intensively discussed on many discussion fora. There are great number of non-Muslims who denounced that bastard cartoonist and the newspaper that published it. Thats one.
Secondly, we had no means to have our voice heard except via riot. So does the law also aprove, I am sure. And so we did. And you don't have to point an accusation finger at us for the outbreak of the violence here. Thats the true habit of Nigerians--we don't know how to carry-out peacefull demonstartion. It always lead to something else.
Think have to stop here. Sorry if my replies occasioned pain to anyone. Unnintentional.
And to you, Usman11, its been interesting talking with you. Have learnt a lot as I'm sure you too have learned something from me. Thank you very much. And I darned well know; whatsoever I'll have to say (more) will not as it cannot 'change' your view of the Muslims. That reminds me of one saying;
nobody can be free of enmity. So we cannot be free, also.
Wish you all the best.
Muhsin
Very disappointing reaction, Muhsin
Where does it say that it is okay to riot and kill innocent people? It certainly doesn't say it in the Bible and I'm sure it doesn't say it in the Koran. Religion of peace?
Now, the idea that the presence of multiple Churches in Kano point to the people's tolerant characteristic is not an accurate assessment of tolerance. If there is religious freedom as you say, then religious centers are likely to exist because they law allows them to operate. So this has nothing to do with tolerance. The churches are simply exercising their right to function. You measure religious intolerance by the number of religious incidents in an area, and by identifying the culprits of those incidents. In reference to Gideaon Akulaka, the Muslims acted irresponsibly and should be held to account. As you say, this individual maligned the Koran. Maybe he even insulted the Prophet, but what happend thereafter? 100 people or more lost their lives for something they had no part in. Do you not see the problem with that? Why not sue Akaluka for defamation? Why not just run him out of town and ordered never to return? Why commit genocide? why not just settle grievance in our court system, and if we feel we need to amend the constitution to safeguard religious icons, why not do it through the legislature? Is that not the proper an sensible way to handle things?
My dear Usman 11, ur writeup is quite appealing and straight to the point, but it's as well incisive. You raised questions as to why Muslims should engage in killing almost 100 ppl in the case of Gideon. You also suggested some measures on what they should have done or taken. " Why not sue Akaluka for defamation? Why not just run him out of town and ordered never to return? Why commit genocide? why not just settle grievance in our court system, and if we feel we need to amend the constitution to safeguard religious icons, why not do it through the legislature? Is that not the proper an sensible way to handle things? (Sic).
However, my question to you is: Have yu ever heard any muslim brother insulting prophet Jesus? Have you ever seen an instance where Muslims oblige anybody to accept or follow their religion? I have never seen any Muslim yet;knocking at ones doostep to give him pamphlet and force him/her to spare time for words of God so-called.
I think your misconception about the religion is what I believe the reason behind your lengthy but empty assertions.
On the issue of education and leadership in Nigeria to which you blamed the north, this I agree somehow. But the fact of the matter remains: You need to really get informed about the peaceful bases of Islam as a religion.
Nura.
May God save Nigeria from itself! Northern Nigeria has a long hatred planted by the lowly and asumed downtroden It is ashame how a people who abandon themselves, who are not proud of their past becouse it is nothing to be proud of, who can not live within their roots because they still practice adashi with worthy "highly achieved" own natives lives and they look elsewhere for their problems. Tell me any well to do merchant among the Afezeres Katafs, Kutebs what have you! They may be well educated but not in any way knowlegeable for wisdom flows from a knowledgeable but not an educated mind!
The problem is neither religious nor political, it is simple hatred pure and simple. See nothing will make a person in diaspora to see good reason at all, afterall he abandoned his roots! If he has achieved anything, I challenge Usman11 angulu da kan zabo to show clearly what he has done in or for his people! Qaryar banza, he can not live anywhere near his village that is if his parents or sibling even benefit from him at all. He has mentioned about his so called Prof brother, thank God he is in America! Why can't a Hausa man get the same treatment yet get elected as OBAMA was in smal JOS!
I monitored a BBC programme where Robert Walker interviewed a high government official who said "the Hausas must know there are no go areas in Plateau, otherwise the violence will continue"! it is only in Kano that anybody could rise to become anybody!
Go and check the Federal Character and see the statistics are there, those guys benefit so much from the government such that they can not do anything once they leave government service. Even the religion they claim to follow or fight for is all flowery look at them, get close to them you soon know what they really are! Htred..... pure and simple and a h mind full of hatred understands nothing. Allah kiyaye.
Americans have shown the way for the world to follow!
Nurudeen, I am honestly not misinformed about Islam. I am interested in seeing more of that peaceful side of Islam, and wish that peaceful side of Islam would always prevail before people take matters into their hands and commit very atrocious and inhuman acts. If you pay close attention to my write ups here, you'll notice that I have not layed any blame on Islam for the actions of some very depraved and sadistic individuals. I have focused my attention on those guilty northern Muslim radicals that constantly engage in genocidal activities each time they feel their religion has been ridiculed. My views in no way indicts Islam. My views are critical of those Muslims in the north that instigate this repeat aggression against their neighbors. I think my commentary shows a clear distinction between Islam and fanatical Muslims.
There is a significant Muslim population in Lagos, Ogun, Oshun, and other Western and Southern Nigerian states, yet they hardly lose sleep over the very things that sets off a religious confrontation in the north. If this is not a problem, then you guys are living in denial. You cannot solve a problem by ignoring, denying, or even rationalizing it. This is why this problem persists, and this is why we are having this debate.
Nurudeen, the question of whether or not I have heard a Muslim brother insult Prophet Jesus is really not the issue. The issue is about violent confrontations inspired by religious zealotry. Regardless of who or what insults what, the fact is, we are human beings not ANIMALS. We live in a nation of laws, and people should never take laws into their hands or else the atmosphere will becomes chaotic. But going back to the reference about Jesus, as a religious icon, Jesus is perhaps the most ridiculed, most violated, most studied, and perhaps most despised figure. Not too long ago, a broadway director produced a play where Jesus was portrayed as homosexual. This play drew very strong criticism from Christian organizations natiowide. When the show premiered on broadway, both aetheists and christians stood at opposing sides with placards denouncing or supporting the play. For many Christians, this show was very hurtful, yet they chose to pray for those blasphamous people. Thereafter, everyone went home. That to me was a very civilized way to handle discord from both sides. The aetheists did infact conduct themselves accordingly as well even though I disagreed with what they did.
So my point is, violence is not the only method by which we can express our displeasure when aggrieved. Take for example the riots that followed the Danish Cartoon, there were demonstrations in many parts of World against what Muslims viewed as an insult to their Prophet. The point was made, but it was only in northern Nigeria that demonstrations became deadly. Maybe human life has little value to you, but to me, the life of an innocent person is of the greatest value, and it is not for any psychopath to carelessly put an end to out of blind hate.
Sani Danbaffa, I am not sure what you are blabbing about. I am not sure what you think you can contribute to this dialogue, but just in case you do not properly comprehend things, let it be known to you, that this discourse is not about me, or about personality. This discussion is about religious violence in Nigeria, and it will do you a lot of good if you keep your flippant commentaries within the context of the dialogue. I am not here to advertise myself. I have not claimed to have superior intelligence or any intelligence at all. If it makes you happy, you are smarter than I am, and your education surpasses mine a hundred times. So there you have it. Are you satisfied? You'll notice how Nurudeen, Muhsin, Waduz, and myself have advanced this dialogue carefully and progressively. I think there are potentials for some breakthrough here, and I would rather engage these fine gentlemen in more constructive dialogue going forward. Thanks anyway for your input.
Thank you very much gentlemen for the prolonged dialogue on such a hot but fetish issue? May I ask a sincere question? What is the real reason for the Etnic Minorities hatred for the so called Ethnic majority? To my mind, the reason is simple, in their iddleness, the so called majority have florished and become so "wealthy" and you know too well "zuciyar mai tsumma.... a kusa ta ke! So they adopt the a fasa kowa ya rasa attitude. Please recall the not so few riots in Kaduna for instance, the Jarman Kano, a philantrophist known to all, who developed a certain area, employed several natives and improved their lives, was paid by the same "worthy citizens" in bad coin! They burnt his assets (estate and Hotel) in their town.
In the Jukun riots, late Dan Adalen Kano Alh Tsoho Tofa's rice farm almost due for harvest, was burnt to ashes! Haba jama'a! I still insist, may I know any ethnic minority that has done anything worty of mention to the benefit of anybody even among his own people? Travel in their land and find out. I tell you I traversed the length and bredth of most of their areas! They are spotted with uncompleted projects started either by the government or top bras that end up eaten by their own relatives, or by petty communal misunderstanding.
May Allah guide us to greater heights. I promise not talk on this issue any further.
SALAM. the discussion is painful and the answers are in Late Yohanna madakis interview of late 80`s or ealier 90`s i should say. there has to be a truce and reconciliation. the roots of the crises were deep inside history, the minorities were maltreated if i should use that word and now they feel liberated so they are taking revenge. peep through history and see the days horses were raiding langtan and other villages, all matured girls are taken away to serve as concubines and healthy young men were taken in chains and sold as slaves. today their great grand childrens are the ones holding guns in various uniforms as police or army officers, and nomatter their ranking, they are been looked down upon and without any economic power. they are taking revenge in the wrong way cos it will not solve the problem. i can still remember what yohanna madaki said in his interview.