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General => General Board => Topic started by: Waziri on September 25, 2003, 08:03:25 PM

Title: Leviticus 20:10, Jesus And The Adulteress
Post by: Waziri on September 25, 2003, 08:03:25 PM
Leviticus 20:10, Jesus And The Story Of The Adulteress In John 8

In the light of the understanding of a good number of us that the law of stoning to death of adulterers is in the Torah as revealed to Musa (Moses in Latin or Moshe in Hebrew) A.S, that is Leviticus 20:10 and confirmed by the statements of Isa (Jesus in Latin or Yeheshua in Hebrew) A.S in Matthew 5:17. I want here discuss the issue as I see it since our Christian brothers are constantly coming up with another scenario in the Holy Bible, that is John Chapter 8, where Jesus was reported to have acted contrary to the provisions of the laws, and therefore, they argue, rendered the laws completely ineffective.

The Religion

 First before I go further I will hereby emphatically state that the religion of the Jews in its authentic form is no different from the religion that Jesus (A.S) preached and practiced, and the religion of Jesus (A.S) which is today termed Christianity in its pristine purity is no different in anyway from Islam. In fact we Muslims think and completely believe that Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Noah, Muhammad, etc are not but our prophets and were all Muslims. And what they preached during their ?tenure? so to say find total completion today in Islam.  So you see in the Qur?an where we are commanded to speak to the Jews and Christians passionately saying:

 "Say: 'O people of the book! (Christians and Jews) come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship None but God; That we associate no partners with Him; That we erect not, from ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God.' if then they turn back. Say 'Ye: Bear witness that we (at least) Are Muslims (bowing to God's will).'? Surat al Imran.

 It is confirmed actually that the religion of the Jews as they practice today is a distorted version of the religion. Evidence of this is contained in the story of Jesus as contained in the Bible where you find him constantly rebuking the Pharisees and the Scribes for distorting the message of God. ? O! Ye adulterous and evil generation?, ?O! Ye generation of sepulchre?, and so on. You will also find in the Qur?an about the constant rebellion of the Jews against the prophets sent to them by God, they sometime kill them and revert back to the evil practices of pagan religions.  Kabalah rituals, which they claim to be part and parcel of their religion, dates back to ancient magic forms of Egyptian religions. It is believed by modern historians that it was as a result of their long stay in Egypt before the Exodus that they were influenced by the Egyptian belief systems.

On the part of Christians too as they are today, what they practice is not the religion of Jesus but something else. In fact even the name Christians came way after Jesus has left us. As it is recorded in the Acts of the Apostle, it was at Antioch (Andakiyya) that first followers of Christ were called Christians. Even some works by modern researchers concluded that Christianity as is being practiced today is not the religion of Christ but that of Paul.   Dr Arnold Meyer, Professor of theology at Zurich University has this to say after scrutinising the doctrines of modern Christianity:

 "If this is Christianity, then such Christianity was founded by St. Paul not our lord." Jesus and Paul Page 122.  Also Dr.Johenness Weiss of Heidelberg University has this to say:

 "The faith in Christ as held by Paul was something new in comparison with the preaching of Jesus, it was a new type of religion." Paul and Jesus, Page 130.

You will also find according the records of the Bible that Jesus was nothing more than a devout Jew.

 The Books

Concerning the collection of books, which we today know as Holy Bible, which are also categorized as new and old Testaments, it is generally agreed in the world of scholarship that they cannot be authentic as the revelations sent to the prophets by God. The truth of the matter is so many hands tempered with them. For example, the first five books of the Old Testament, Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus and Deuteronomy are claimed to have been written by Moses but yet if you read through them you would find several situations where a third voice is saying ?and God said unto Moses?, ??and Moses say unto God?. That means it is neither Moses nor God is the author but some personality that is not truly known. In fact in the Deuteronomy 34:7, it is reported ?And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.? This clearly confirmed that Moses did not write the book since his death is recorded in the book.

The second part of the Holy Bible that is known as New Testament today was collected in its present form some 325 years after Jesus, at Nicene council after the Roman Emperor of the then, Constantine has accepted the faith and made Christianity a state religion. Disagreements however ensued between the followers of St. Paul under the leadership of a Priest Athanacious who also was then the foremost advocate of Trinity and the other group that  never believed in Trinity and Pauline version of Christianity under the leadership of another priest called Arius. At the end of the day Pauline Christianity triumphed and their version of New Testaments was adopted as the most authentic, hence the other versions including some other 50 Gospels were ordered to be burnt.

The New testament is the one that deals mostly with the story of Jesus in four different Gospels. Two out of these gospels as it is said, were written by Matthew and John, which were also disciples of Jesus. One of the remaining two gospels was written by Luke who was a disciple of St. Paul, Luke in the beginning of his writing mentioned that what motivated him to write was nothing more than the truth that he saw other people writing their Gospels. He is also the person who wrote the Acts of the Apostles. The remaining one Gospel was written by Mark whose identity is, till today embellished in controversy.

 In these four gospels you find the story of Jesus and how he managed his ministry. But nevertheless you find also many contradictions and inconsistencies that can never be reconciled. Like John?s records of the last words of Jesus are completely different from the records of Mark?s last words of Jesus. Also Mark recorded a genealogy of Jesus, which is completely different from that of Luke?s.  

There are also other epistles that were written by St. Paul who was never a disciple of Jesus until after his departure but claimed receiving inspiration to write those books he had written, and the books have come to form the majority of the 27 books you find in today?s many different versions of The New Testament. You can see the reason why critiques are saying Paul was the original author of Christianity because most of the doctrines of modern Christianity in so far as they differ from Judaism were founded not by Jesus but St. Paul.

Our Premise

Muslims use the Qur?an, which in the world of scholarship is considered to contain the real and authentic teachings of Moses, Jesus and Muhammad and also guarded from human alteration for centuries in order to check the authenticity of the claims of other heavenly revealed scriptures. It confirms some of the things therein and repudiates those things that are clearly not true and authentic. Also the actions or utterances of the Prophet of Islam are used to confirm these, since he is the best interpreter of Qur?an. And in an attempt to preserve his authentic interpretations Muslims have evolved what is to be known later to be science of Textual Criticism, which is its first kind in history. It is a system of checking the truth of the claims of those people who say they heard or seen the Prophet doing or saying something. The science demands that the personality, character and disposition of any person must be thoroughly known before a word is considered from him to be the truth of what the Prophet said or done.

In an event where there is apparent contradiction in the words of God and the word of the Prophet, a deeper analysis into the circumstances is always required because the Prophets being they humans as well are required to be pragmatic in the hope of achieving a higher goal that is attaining the good (Maslaha) or avoiding the worst (Dharurah). And it?s in this light we will look at the story Jesus and The Adulteress in John Chapter 8.

Leviticus 20:10, Jesus And The Story Of The Adulteress In John 8

Certainly Leviticus 20:10 are one of those aspects of the Torah that are confirmed by the words and actions of the Holy Prophet of Islam. They are also confirmed by the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:17 and Qur?an 61:6. But we are  confronted by another scenario in the Holy Bible, that is, John Chapter 8:3-11, where Jesus acted contrary to the provision of the laws. Does this really mean a contradiction to his words in Matthew 5:17? Or  there is other explanation that can be made to reconcile the two.

Let?s check the circumstances by reading John 8:3-7 together:

And the Scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 3-

They say unto him, Master, this woman was takes in adultery, in the very act. 4-

Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 5-

This they said, tempting him,  that they may have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 6-

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 7-    
Having read through the story there are many questions that will naturally follow. In verse 4 above is said ?this woman was takes in adultery, in the very act.? One can conveniently ask, as Jesus would have done, since you say she was caught in the very act where is her partner? Or was she committing the adultery alone? Anyway let?s pretend as if we did not see this question because the answer in no where to be found in the Bible.

In verse  6 above ?This they said, tempting him,  that they may have to accuse him.? Here we can ask to accuse him of what? Is it that if he stoned her they would accuse him of doing as the laws commanded? or If he stoned her not they would accuse him of not doing the commandments of God? How did he save himself from the accusation by saying ? He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.? ? What does  the story teach us?

The answer is certainly not explicitly recorded in the Bible but rather implicitly. A close reading of the Holy Bible will show how these Scribes and Pharisees always come to Jesus with different posers that they may have excuse to tender to the Roman emperor of the then that they may have Jesus arrested for good riddance or disarm him of his follower ship by giving false to his claims.

We can vividly remember how in the Gospel of Mathew they came to him saying ? Master shall we pay tribute to Caeser ? ? because they were then under the Roman Empire and if Jesus were to say they should not pay. These people will not pay and if the Roman authorities would ask them they would say it was Jesus who instructed them thus. And the Roman authorities would find reason to fight Jesus with all its might. And if Jesus where to say to them pay then they would go to the people and start shouting that this man is not the Messiah because the messiah according to the scriptures is the one that will come and deliver them from the Roman bondage so let every body should learn not to follow him. As a result Jesus in his divine wisdom replied to them ?Give unto Caeser what belongs to Caeser and give unto God what belong to God?.

The story in John Chapter 8 also can only find meaning if we look at it considering the circumstance. These people wanted to tempt him being that they were fully aware that adultery is not a crime that attracts a capital punishment under the Roman codes. And if Jesus would say   they should stone her,  using the laws they would conveniently go ahead and do the stoning.  if the roman authorities ask them they would say it was all under his instructions. And most assuredly the roman empire would get even with him for setting another government under its own territory.

And on the other hand if he should say do not stone her they would say to the rest of their people. You see this is what we have told you over time. This man is not the messiah, because according to our scriptures the messiah is coming only to enforce the laws. As a result, Jesus said to them ?he who is without sin shall cast the first stone?, needless to say that it was for expediency in the hope of avoiding the worst.

 This  is it the way it is regardless of the fact that  many modern revisers of the Holy Bible are of the understanding that the story of the adulteress is not in the original manuscript of John?s gospel, that there is a strong probability that it was smuggled much later into the Bible only  to serve the interest of some few people. This is why many modern editions of the Bible like RSV, NIV , etc treat the story in quotes.

My humble submission please. Though it appears to be too long a post. My apology.

WAZIRI, Ibraheem
Title: Re: Leviticus 20:10, Jesus And The Adulteress
Post by: lionger on September 26, 2003, 01:23:11 AM
Nice writeup Waziri. Don't you think that this post would have been more fitted for the Islamic forum? Anyways, u have certainly made many points and to reply all of them specifically would be too much to do now. I don't know if u came across my discussion with Barde over Sharia's existence in the Bible on the Islamic forum; some of the things I said there should serve as answers to some of your points there. I'm too busy right now, but hopefully I will be able to make a rejoinder soon.
Title: Re: Leviticus 20:10, Jesus And The Adulteress
Post by: lionger on October 11, 2003, 06:16:42 PM
Ok, Sorry to keep you waiting, but I've been very busy latelyto attend to. Now to the point:

I think to understand Jesus' words concerning the adultress in the gospel of John; it is important to understand one of the messages that Jesus came to open our eyes to: firstly, that God is interested in the heart of man, and that this is were sin starts and is thus committed in His eyes. Waziri you mentioned a verse in Matthew 5:17, where Jesus said that he had not come to abolish the law, but to fulfil it. Not only that, he came to reveal its true meaning, and to thus show the true desire of God the Father. Because, as you said, the Jews had completely misundestood the law, and had abandoned the issues of the hearts for outward appearances. The Pharisees as you said, had twisted the law to accomodate themselves and to oppress others.

To show the true heart of God as concerns sin, Jesus first tackles the command 'Do not murder':

"But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgement. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the kingdom of hell.'

In light of this new knowledge, are we not all condemned to death as, the law requires? But Jesus goes on to tackle the ever-so important question of adultery:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery in his heart.'

Can any of us now say that we have never commited the sin of adultery? Doesn't this show what Jesus meant when he said that those 'without sin' shoud cast the first stone?  By the law we are all condemned to be stoned to death and even worse. Under this incrimitaing knowledge, our only hope is to fall on our knees and beg for God's mercy. This obviously shows the need for a greater Salvation and Righteousness, and Christians believe that this can be found in Christ.

Was this new idea of sin committed in the heart, completely alien to the records in the old testament? No! Job says in Job 31:1, "I have made a covenant with my eyes, not to look lustfully at a girl." King David, after being confronted and punished by God for the sin of adultery, says, "Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me." (Psalm 51 ). Both David and Job were men God counted as righteous because in their hearts they loved Him. God himself says in 1 Samuel 16:7, that man looks at the outward appearance, but He looks at the heart."

Your argument that Jesus' words in John 8 were made to avoid the trap the questioners set for him are correct, but however, miss this one spiritual truth I have just described. Your other contention, that Jesus' in sparing the woman's life did not uphold the law, contrary to Matthew 5:17, also does not take into account another spiritual truth that Jesus' reveals in Matthew 12. Here he is accosted by the Pharisees because his disciples seemed to be breakign the Sabbath, by picking and eating heads of grains as they walked thru the grainfields. Jesus replies in Matthew 12:3-8:

"Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread - which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. If you had known what these words mean 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent."

The phrase 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice' is a quote from Hosea 6:6. In this book God rebukes Israel for its unfaithfulness and unrepentance. In fact, in many other passages in the Old testament God reprimands the Israelites for the hardness and cruelty of their hearts, and for immercing themselves in the religious rites of sacrifices and feasts (required by the law) but rejecting Him by their evil actions - violence, hatred and hypocricy. Take this passage in Zechariah 7.After the exile, some Israelites came to the priests of the temple and the prophets to ask if they should continue their mournings and fasts. This was God's reply thru Zechariah:

Zechariah 7:5-11
"Ask all the people of the land and the priests, 'When you fasted and mourned in the fifth and seventh months for the past seventy years, was it really for me that you fasted? And when you were eating and drinking, were you not just feasting for yourselves? Are these not the words the Lord proclaimed through the earlier prophets when Jerusalem and its surrounding towns were at rest and prosperous, and the Negev and the western foothills were settled? Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another. Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the alien or the poor. In your hearts do not think evil of each other.'"

However the ppl did not listen to this word, as is indicated in verse 11:
"But they refused to pay attention; stubbornly they turned their backs and stopped up their ears."
Once again, we bounce back to the evil heart of man, which God testifies to thru his prophets and which Jesus also talks of even more, as I have already shown. Jeremiah 17: 9 describes the heart as 'more deceitful than all else, and desperately sick.' God also says in Genesis that the heart of man is evil from childhood. All this is surely not too shocking to believe when we look around at the mess the world is in.

As such, all are under God's wrath, and the law only serves to condemn rather than vindicate, because our hearts are still evil. All our attempts at righteousness are as filthy rags before him. By condemning the woman to death, we are in fact also comdeming ourselves, since we are not innocent. So God provides us a righteousness of His own; Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, whose Sacrifice was proclaimed and fortold by the prophets.

I will address your points on the corruption of teh Bible in my next post.
Title: Re: Leviticus 20:10, Jesus And The Adulteress
Post by: Waziri on October 14, 2003, 12:57:17 PM
Yes Lionger it is true that sin begins from the heart, which all the three monethestic religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam affirm. But sin as long as it remains in the heart do not attract any physical punishment.

Concerning adultery or fornication, this is the command of the Qur'an " Do not come near to commiting adultery or fornication". But actually the punishment is when one commits adultery or fornication, not when one COMES NEAR ADULTERY.

This is my understanding of Jesus (AS) when he say:"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery in his heart.'

The fact is nobody will start punishing one when one commits adultery in his heart but when one does it PRACTICALLY.

Finally, every action in these monothestic religions have their esoteric value and exoteric value. Jesus and all the other Prophets warned ppl at esoteric level not to commit sin as you cited above but when sins are commited in exoteric reality they attract punishment, this, atleast to keep the social structure safe.  

And this is the only way out that can help us understand the statements of Jesus in Matthews 5:17. He enforces the laws there and admonish ppl ,in many other places as you cited, not come CLOSE TO COMMITING SIN.

This, I understand is the essence of the Gospel which later ppl misunderstood and started thinking was a complete abrogation of the law. At least according to St. Paul.
Title: Re: Leviticus 20:10, Jesus And The Adulteress
Post by: lionger on October 15, 2003, 02:01:50 AM
My friend, why should sin be punished only on the outside, if sin inside is left intact? If you want to weed your farm, would you just take a cutlass and swing at it as though you were cutting grass? Or would you uproot the weeds with your hands or dig them up with a hoe? If you have a bad odour, do you just spray perfume over it, or do you head for the shower? Don't you think that God requires/deserves even more diligence and thoroughness in living right, or are you aknowledging that the punishment for outward sin is a temporary solution, the best we can do, eventually a ploy to make us look good in the eyes of others? Why should God tolerate sin in the heart when it will definitely produce sin on the outside, after which judgement follows, as you have acknowledged? Should He infact, do away with sin completely for our sakes, since it will eventually lead us to judgement?

Immediately after Jesus made the statement that adultery was committed in the heart, he said this:
"If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell'' Matthew 6:29-30

What a strong statement on dealing with sin! B4 we drift into a literal meaning of this, that since sin starts in the heart, then should we cut we cut out our hearts o our deaths?? No, not even that will justify us. However, this is what Jesus meant when he rebuked the Pharisees, in Matthew 23:25-27:

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bodies and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness."

We are not 'clean' until we clean ourselves inside-out. As long as we desire the acknowledgement and righteousness from God, we must clean ourselves inside-out. That is because though man only sees the sin outside, God sees the sin inside. And to God, the sin that everyone sees is simply an outward revelation of the desires of the evil heart, which only He sees, and is displeased by, and will punish. So which is greater: righteousness b4 men or righteousness b4 God? And which is worse, the judgement of men or the judgement of God?

It's only natural for us to think that we can compensate for our sins by 'doing more good deeds'. However this will naturally lead us to self-gratification and pride rather than God's righteousness. We think to ourselves, 'as long as I give alms, pray so many times a day, do not steal or commit adultery, read the Bible/Holy Quran all the time, and fast regularly, I do not really need God; I am okay.' Yes, that's what we're truly saying! Thus we compare ourselves by how 'good' we are - # of times we pray and perform all the good religious rites, even the amount of holy scripture we can memorise. And of course we look down on others who fall way short of our standard and condemn them in our hearts, just like the Pharisees did. Is this righteousness; no it is our self-gratification and pride. Should a criminal or juvenile delinquent be released on the promise that he do a 'good deed' to cancel out his crime, or on the proven fact that he has been rehabilitated and that the source of the problem has been exposed and destroyed? Sin regardless, remains a barrier b/w us and God.

All our efforts are hopeless, because we cannot change our hearts by our own power. As the prophet Isaiah say by the Holy Spirit in Isaiah 64:6, our own righteousness is like filthy rags before Him. God is perfect, and He in his justice and holiness demands perfection. However, in his overwhelming mercy and grace, He gives us His own righteousness as a free gift! Seeing that we were helpless and doomed, He payed the price himself thru the death of His Son, Jesus Christ. By this one sacrifice God has has done away with the sacrifice of bulls and rams required by the law. God, in fact took no pleasure in the sacrifice of animals, and was even further repelled by those who offered them and yet still did not honor Him in their hearts. So He has put an end to those imperfect sacrifices by offering His own, and our only valid righteousness is the acceptance of His free gift. Likewise, the house God wants to live in is not a temple, a church or any man-made house, but our HEARTS, reconciled to Him and made perfect by belief in Jesus Christ.
Title: Re: Leviticus 20:10, Jesus And The Adulteress
Post by: al_hamza on October 16, 2003, 03:34:12 PM
it is completely un-acceptable that Jesus (Isah alaihissalam) said cut of this or that part of the body, thats christian novelist fabrication, the Messenger of Allah cannot say such things since thier teachings were compatable with all era's and we know today that all our body is controlled by the brain,
its un-acceptable to agree that remove your eye or cut your arm, i wonder why lionger doesnt see it
Title: Re: Leviticus 20:10, Jesus And The Adulteress
Post by: lionger on October 18, 2003, 04:57:24 PM
haha yo al hamza, christian novelist fabrication? I have already explained the context of the words Jesus used. Despite that, I find it funny that you find his words unaceptable. To use ur own words, do you believe in sharia at all? Don't you believe in sharia, which reccomends floggings, amputations for stealing and stoning to death for adultery? Or are you in fact holding Jesus to a higher accountability thatn prophet muhammad?

Since you say you know today that body parts are controlled by the mind, don't you also know that DNA evidence is very useful for cases of adultery?
Title: Re: Leviticus 20:10, Jesus And The Adulteress
Post by: Waziri on October 19, 2003, 03:53:02 PM
Lionger, I can see we are only repeating ourselves here. The argument is no longer new again. You see, all you are saying is Jesus commands us to purify our souls,  that we should work from inside-out. We should wash the inside not the outside only. You even quoted him warning the Pharisees on their attitude of pretending being good outside but living the inside bad.

And in all these you are right, for what I said earlier was all the prophets of God preached that at individual level we should cleanse our inner side first as Jesus suggested to the Pharisees.

But yet there are sins like murder, adultery and other things which when committed poses a serious threat to the social structure and as such God prescribed a physical punishment for them as in the Ten Commandments and these were carried out by the Prophets, being them, many at times the spritual and secular leaders of their ppl. They left these laws as a constitution and a guide to us. We grow to operate and use them upon all the inside-out cleansing we are doing.

Then came a claim that some God's Prophet came and abrogated these laws. Then we say okay let us find out whether he really did it. We scanned through the Holy Bible but found nowhere he suggested thus. But instead a strong proof where the said prophet says he is affirming them : Mathew 5:17.

Then we say, okay the earlier claim was verified not to be true as I understand it with my experiment with John Chapter 8 above. Now my Christian friends are saying my understanding is not correct citing only evidences in the Holy Bible where Jesus says we should work on the spirit and wash from the inside out.

I now say I understand that all prophets command working on the spirit but prescribed that for a better social structure some physical work on those who commit sin that is capable of influencing others must be done and that include Jesus himself as exemplified in Matthew 5:17.

Now if it is not that, then I expect a categorical and unequivocal statement from Christ that suggest the abrogation of the laws. Not a suggestive interpretation of some carefully chosen text that can equally serve my interpretation of the scripture better.

Maybe I am done with this lionger.

May be till we cross path another time.

But I must concede to the fact that you are a very nice person whom I respect in unmeasured terms, at least for your courage to continue to be with us here. I am committed to optimism that Nigeria will certainly be a better place with your like as youths,  more objective kanoonliners, and other bonafide, ordained and authentic Nigerians anywhere: those who desire perpetual peace and felicity, both here and hereafter.

For Al Hamza, I think it would do us alot of good if we continued discussing with some measure of respect to other ppl sensibilities. I just dunno, I may be wrong but I think your comments above are a bit harsh ;)