Good day readers, I decided to post up this topic, which is quite relevant to a recent topic I replied and which I feel is quite interesting. I also do believe that there is no such thing on earth as an uninteresting subject; the only thing that can exist is an uninterested person, so enjoy reading because I personally find this little article of mine as interesting.
As I sat & taught of which falls into parts of the realisations of which, I?ve assimilated, learnt & digested, I feel I should share it with all. I said to myself discrimination could be anything and anything could be everything. Why? This is because the world has always been filled with various discriminations which was the only thing that defined boundary; sexual, racial, territorial, and of recent even economical discriminations. now you do agree right?
A lady once said "When I was a woman everything was discriminated against us, now they have succeeded, they still haven't given us our rights, instead they made us men"
Even the lines drawn at the Berlin treaty where drawn by the people, who know nothing about Africa or Africans, lines in the Middle East were unknown to the Arabs. Lines drawn by the Romans had to go as well. These distinctions aroused & boundaries were set up!
Now those boundaries are going again & some maybe unaware and some people might be! Agree to disagree the lines of today example: Afghanistan & Iraq. Between these two countries are three things however that still stand globally discreditable and are discriminated which are Race, Resources and Religion. Race to a lesser extent is declining, but resource and religion are rising, fast.
These three factors are now drawing the lines in the map of our world. If you oppose to this statement, Hear this: the resources of a territory has become of global interest, not in investments but in territorial and/or economical domination in better words; conquest. The brutalities that we have read and heard of about the past times indicating "survival of the fittest" and "the best share goes to the strongest not the best fit", has come back among us again. Not to mention the largest military resources or manpower resources could claim any territory today, and the largest media could claim any information (truth or fiction). This might only be logical since it's "to each according to its ability and for each according to its needs" What only sounds strange is the same people battled "communism". Or maybe what happened to communism might happen to capitalism!
Religion is more than just having faith in a God or some gods, its a way of life made to be followed. Distinction in religion come from different believes. Due to its awareness, most people of the world feel more united in one belief than in one territory. The lines are virtually being redrawn again. This apparently is the biggest and widest of distinctive of human attributes.
Wazz, Eskimo, Alhamzah, Mr.Dave, Maleek, ummeetah, Lionger and My newest and good friend; Mr Jack Fulcher. I'll take ur 2 secs silence as a yes.
everything Obsereved!
So, truly, when I made the post about Hitler and the Jews I was so annoyed, I gave out the message so openly without good explanations, that happens when one is "touched". But I'm not going back on my words...I meant them. Although I dont mean Hitler is a good person, but out of every evil there is a good quality
Now let me pose certain questions to some of our members. The truth about life is all about good and evil isn't it Jack , good and evil is only a matter of using common sense right? So don't you think using our common sense to solve our problem is a good idea? As we could have the best solutions worked out.
To digress this issue abit, Don?t you all think or definitely know that life is beautiful, fun & sweet and Living is the best privilege, don't you all agree? Humans everywhere alike will like, no love to live. But imagine the evil...or imagine what could drive a man with a family, with kids and dreams, a man with a soul to deny himself from the privilege of living and condemn himself into suicide to kill others. Hatred or worse, oppression, denial, death all are understatements to an average Palestinian. Whatever pain drives these Palestinians must be ultimate such that it comes down to the average of them would sacrifice himself for his nation, his pride and dignity. Living is less important, what counts, what matters, what's more to life in there, is Palestine and its survival. That is the priority.
Doesn't this mean something? Couldn't it be possible to say that the state of isreal is a treat to the Palestinian community, that Israel is putting terror into the minds of all ages of Palestinians, translating the Israeli state, down to our common sense: EVIL! What have Palestinians done to deserve all these?
Let me go offpoint, greatest evil doer. Nah, its not Sharon, him, the Israeli state are all tools nothing more, tools to the greatest of all evils: The Jewish Nation. When the Jews were sent away from Egypt, it was the nation, when they went into Europe and the west, the nation still was alive, and eventually the Israeli state which is just a part of the nation. As freedom of speech allows it: I hereby say God d**ned that Country.
Mr Jack, when we speak of America we speak of 2 entities... Americans and the American Government. Like you Jack, Americans have always been good people, with good hearts and actions, I admire their courage and humanitarian efforts, and they are in general a success as well as ignorant. However the American Government is what I hate, they are nothing but another limb of the Jewish nation. They can be counted on to vote and to donate to candidates who they like, so they have great influence...In your words Jack, "Jews came here in the first half of the last century and built businesses and generally worked hard to become an important part of the society. Since we're a democracy, they have a large influence over who wins elections and what decisions the government makes." They have Mr Jack...and they have managed to become the whole government. That's where the lines come in. So with common sense you would say the Americans are humanitarians and the American Government is Anti-Islam, Anti-human even. How is that possible? Well you will agree that the former doesn't know of the latter. Now it all makes sense when we say America is anti-Islam since the Jews control its government (poor Americans).
On the other hand, I just sat down and taught about what Hitler did to the Jews. I don't have to explain, and what the American government (Jewish body) did to the world(In the last decade, the U.S government have bombed Iraq, Panama, kosovo etc). All these years these brutality could only be measured with world war II, how many people suffered and died from this Jewish bodies and how many will suffer in the future... we may never know. But what we do know is the world is suffering by their hands. So imagine if the six million Jews Hitler killed lived and multiplied, at this generation there is no telling to the number they will have risen to, the influence or the power, or even worse; the damage. So I thought, Hitler did a good yet dirty job. Hitler has at least done something right of all odds.
Arab summit couldn't define or at least give "Terrorism" a simple definition. Why? If we take the definition of the Oxford dictionary then by the war against terror campaign, the whole world would be extinct...I mean no one will leave even to the individual level, we'll all be terrorists to one another. Agreed?
Lionger {Quick question: many of you take this issue very personally. Would this be the case if the Palestinians were not Muslims? } True there are more Muslims in this forum and we are guided by Islamic principles, but believe me every good thought is an Islamic teaching. Don't you think the world is too sentimental when it comes to relating Islam and crimes? When a bomb is blown in new York by street thugs or anyone, his religion is not mentioned, his race wouldn't be blamed or all those anti-racist groups will erupt and his community wouldn't be blamed either. But once the person is Arab or Muslim or most especially if Afghanistan is mentioned, Islam is to suck up the blame. Now isn't that a little hating at its end?
Just like a fellow member by name Eskimo mentioned... All the wars fought after the WWII is anti-Islamic wars, of course some with pretexts. So in your words lionger; "Like I said b4 in my first post on this thread, we must condemn evil wherever we see it, even in our own backyard." If you have read my war against Iraq u probably must have seen how I condemned Saddam, its all good.
Like George Bush said in one of his boastful speeches "we will win this" But in my belief I believe that in war, whichever side may call itself the victor, there are no winners, but all are losers.
However, in Islamicity when we say War we mean resolution. In defeat we mean defiance in victory we mean magnanimity and in peace we mean Goodwill and not Evil lochness. God, show me the peace.
Ibro
It is good to make the distinction between Americans and the US government. Not all Americans support what their government is doing and many strongly oppose. Too many Americans are very badly informed. Their news media is largely controlled by the right-wing elements who are in support of the illegal invasion of Iraq in order to take control of Iraq's oil. The invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with an attack on Islam and all to do with US imperialism and getting control of the resources America needs in a world which will start to run short of oil and gas in the next 20 years. Nigeria, look out.
The US's attitude to what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is evil. This is the reason anti-Americanism is spreading across the world. I wish more ordinary Americans could be made aware of how their government is hated world-wide.
Dave, if bush hasnt got support, americans would be out of iraq and afghanistan by now.
al_Hamza
As Dave pointed out, American media doesnt expose the truth behind the matter and so American citizens are unaware of the ultimate goals of American foreign policy. The Media is almost totally controlled by the right-wing or Jews. Jewish corporations pour the dollars for the presidential drive and so the President remains indebted to Isreal. The American imperialist march is immensely beneficial to the survival of Israel. The patch of land that lies between the East and West coast of America contain the major population of voters and most of these people are totally unaware of what really goes on in the outside world.
my man Ibro ;D
Many of us on this see world politics in a very 'black and white' manner. Which IMHO leads to some mistakes on our part because we miss out on so many other important factors. This is why most conspiracy theories are way off.
Your statement on all post WW2 wars being anti-Islamic is an example of what I'm talking about. It's similar to Waziri's statement on history being nothing but a story of jews and muslims on the thread in question. I think this is a very closed way of looking at world history, and makes us prone to mistakes.
1) You have made the Jewish 'bogeyman' a bit more invincible than it really is. Its true that the jewish lobby is very powerful in the U.S., but it certainly does not infer that all the actions of the American govt. abroad have the Jewish seal of approval. For instance, many of us will readily proclaim that the US supported Saddam during the Iran-Iraq war in the 80s. Well guess what, Israel backed Iran! Infact, their special forces even took out a famous nuclear facility in Iraq after a failed attempt by the Iranians. Furthermore the U.S. views the Mossad as one of the greatest threats to its national security.
2) Why did u mention kosovo? Isn't this the sort of military action you'd want the US to take on behalf of a persecuted muslim entity? They even bypassed the UN to do so! Unless i'm mistaken, this must have been a slip on your part.
3) Your assertion that religion is redrawing the territorial borders is not correct for this day and age. I think it would hold more water for the middle ages, but the major combining force these days is economics and material gain. Look at the EU, for instance. But yet economics still has a long way to go in defeating nationalism.
?In fact, to digress a bit, ignorance of economics is often the result when we paint world issues with religous colors. Let's look at the whole Saddam debacle from its beginnings with the war against Iran. From what I've learned, the war officially started over a prolonged border dispute whose roots go as far back as the Ottoman/persian clash, with ethnic and religious sentiments thrown in for good measure. Now we will all say that the US backed Saddam, or as Waziri said 'he commited all sorts of crimes as demanded by them...' But this is incomplete. U think when two of the world's greatest suppliers of oil go to war, that the rest of the world will just scratch their heads? Thye have to take sides! Iraq also enjoyed open support from the Soviet Union, Europe, china and even moslem countries like Egypt, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. There were indeed countries that supported Iran; and these were fellow outcasts South Africa, Taiwan, Libya and Israel. Moreover, although the superpowers openly backed Iraq, they also assisted Iran secretly for small concessions: Iran kept out of the Afghan conflict in exchange for covert Soviet assistance. As for the U.S., well we always accuse them of ignorance, we should know what the Iran contra affair was all about.
?So the man Saddam was created by his quest for power as well as the West's desperate attempts to protect its oil interests. Most countries chose Iraq cuz to them it was practically easier to deal with a brutal dictatorship than with a fanatical theocracy. Iraq was severely weakened by the prolonged war, and to top that they had a huge war debt, part of which was owed to Kuwait. Using another age-old territorial dispute as pretext, he annexed Kuwait and was poised to roll into Saudi Arabia. Once again the world's oil supply was in danger. I believe we know the rest of the story. As you can see, it is mostly a story of protecting oil, and may not be much different if ppl of other faiths lived in these areas.
4) Finally, your reference to the Jewish nation as the greatest evil. By saying this you inherently give approval to the holocaust and any genocidal action against Jews. This is akin to me saying that all muslims should be fished out and destroyed wherever they are, since they will always have a soft spot for suicide murderers whose power has been shown numerous times. Have u ever wondered why the Jews were driven out of all these places? I doubt u's have ?said the same thing during the 90s. Your main beef is with Sharon, the man responsible for the palestinian's heightened suffering. He will continue to enjoy the ppl's support as long as the suicide murderers continue to enjoy support from the palestinians. Somebody has to get the ball rolling here!
I don't always agree with Lionger but his posts are always worth reading. Sharon is the evil one,not all Jews. Though many Jews support Sharon because he is a strong leader many in Israel do not and there is increasing evidence of mutiny in the Israel army, including officers and even generals, refusing to obey orders about operations among the Palestinians. It is important to understand the history here. This whole problem was caused by the Americans and the British who decided after the Second World War, with the evidence of the Holocaust coming out, that the Jews needed their own state. So they gave parts of Palestine to the Jews - against the wishes of the Palestinians who lived there and owned the land. This was wrong. Of course some of the Palestinians vowed to drive the Jews out. They attacked Israel and Israel attacked them back and the whole region has been in turmoil since. America guaranteed Israel's survival and armed it to the teeth and has continued to do so. There are innocent Palestinians who don't like being driven from their homelands and innocent Israelis who are under threat in their homes every day so it will be very difficult to solve this problem. There will be no solution unless Sharon is removed and America stops encouraging Israel's excesses. It is interesting to note that America and Britain considered giving Uganda rather than bits of Palestine to the Jews but the Jews wanted to go to where they had come from originally. They are of course semitic and basically of the same genetic stock as the arabs they fight with.
Btw Ibro,
Yes indeed I asked this question:
Quote
Quick question: many of you take this issue very personally. Would this be the case if the Palestinians were not Muslims?
And this was your response:
QuoteTrue there are more Muslims in this forum and we are guided by Islamic principles, but believe me every good thought is an Islamic teaching.
Since your support for the Palestinian cause is rooted in your faith as a Muslim, as is the case for most of us in Kano-online, then I have two more questions:
1) Why the suicidal method of furthering the cause? Is suicide tolerated in Islam? Someone started a thread on this question a while ago and I think the answer was a strong 'no'. So why do we support them in such an action?
2) Why does the resistance attack civilian targets? Why don't they limit their targets to military ones? Are their enemies to be found in a restaurant, in the marketplace, at a wedding celebration? Are such attacks really permitted in Islam?
I ask these questions because as you said in your response, you are guided by Islamic principles. These principles have become the point of fierce debate in the U.S. since 9/11. Iearnestly await your reply.
Lionger, a quick question again, those homes destroyed by the jewish army, demolished with bull-dozers, are they tactics of any civilised army?
and is it true that after high-school jews must go for military training?
if so then everyone is a target.
yest suicide is haram
but under circumstances many haram things become halal.
drugs are strictly banned by ISLAM, will you tell a muslim going for an operation in the hospital to refuse anesthesia?
QuoteLionger, a quick question again, those homes destroyed by the jewish army, demolished with bull-dozers, are they tactics of any civilised army? ?
My answer? No. I have never suscribed to the extra-judicial acts of the Israeli military. But then you r missing my point a bit..I guess this is a bit hard to explain.
you back the palestinians cuz you share the same faith. But then shouldn't this faith also guide and restrict our actions towards them? Or are we saying that one can never 'go too far' in this case? Is that really Islamic? Your statement on every Jew being a liable target is saddening. Even women and children, al hamza? What has a Jewish child ever done to you or the palestinians? And what about the 14% of the population that is muslim? For goodness sake, put a human face on these ppl. Truly I asked y the resistance does this, then u say 'but look at what the Israelis r doing' - so this is just tit for tat? Man, that doesn't sound like religion; don't animals do the same thing? Bottom like - there is no moral difference b/w both sides.
You still haven't explained y the resistance has to use suicidal methods; you mean they can't attack the Israelis w/out killing themselves? Its not like they have nothing else to live for; most of these ppl have spouses and families that depend on them. If their lives r now worthless cuz of severe earthly discomforts then their faith is useless. So why must they also kill themselves? These ppl must believe that a big reward awaits them in heaven if they go this way. Is this true? And this suicide 'waiver' u talk abot, al hamza, is it written in the Quran?
Quotedrugs are strictly banned by ISLAM, will you tell a muslim going for an operation in the hospital to refuse anesthesia?
Depends on what u mean by drugs, but if so why not? Haven't u read Bagumel's thread on Sharia and 'choosing what to believe and practise'? well i must be missing something.
Interesting discussion of course,
Well perhaps someone must set the ball rolling around here as lionger suggested. But that person must be very careful indeed. For a ball set rolling in the wrong direction has the tendency to roll back with full force, hitting its setter strong on the nose. And that will not leave him only with a running nose but a demented one. As such - I repeat - we need to be most careful.
I think I must intervene here for I see lionger grossly misquoting me. I did not say the whole human history is the story of Jews and Muslim as lionger seems to imply. But I quoted some historians saying such and kept mute about my own opinion bout it. This is my wording
Quote
Some historians say "History is nothing more than the story of Jews and Muslim".
And this is the whole paraghraph if you care to peruse through again:
Quote
You see, Mr Fulcher one cannot boast understanding world politics, economics and legal theories without a good knowledge of Jewish - Muslim conflicts. True to God anything that happens in the world right from the days of the crusades have one to one relationship with Jewish-Muslims conflict. Some historians say "History is nothing more than the story of Jews and Muslim". I will continue to discuss this matter as our discourse continues unless when ?I see sentiment is clearly overuling, then I hold my peace. But jews have always been incharge of the Europe and America that gave them Palestine displacing the population living their without providing an alternative place for them to reside. The population that never knew any other home apart from Palestine.
This misrepresentation is of course an unfortunate one and goes long away to proving my supposition, that lionger doesn't read me but only make presumptuous conclusions on my positions. ?As such I will like to advice him to try to understand the need to read and digest everything before he makes any comment, for that is the only recipe to achieving a height in opinion expression and intellectual Karate.
On his accusation bout ignorance of the economics I ask this question: Who is the first person that coin the conjugation: " Seek ye the economic kingdom and all shall be added unto you" as opposed to the one by Jesus " Seek ye the kingdom of God and all shall be added unto you" ? Who are the ppl, at a certain point in history, ?that first nurse the idea of banking with interest and what was the reaction of the Europeans of the the period to it?
If you really can answer these questions we will pursue this discourse and see whether the new world war is against Islam as an ideology or not.
And in the final analysis, I believe the world is beginng to see what we have always tried pointing out to it in crystal colours. Pope John Pauls' II ?message of the recent Christmas occasion was basically on the discrimination the Muslim's suffer from in this modern world( I stand to be corrected).
And for long we've been identifying with so many Americans that share our understanding of the Jewish lobby and even some Jews whom I quoted largely in the thread in question (or is it in answer? I dunno know).
And lastly on Palestine, it is nothing more than the statement of another Jew we've quoted the other time: Leopold Weiss, he says:
It belongs to those who approach it with humility born of faith in one God, and particularly in the word of the Qur'an: " ?believe in all His messengers making no distinction between them."
I owe K-onliners three essays: On the War on Islam, ?Muslims and Christians. And the one that will elaborate on the claim of some historians on world history being the story of Jews and Muslims only. This atleast ?will come on lionger's request, if he can spare some of his time to read me. I will go ahead and expound their thesis for his reasoning even if I do not believe in it myself. ?
Waziri
My apologies for misquoting you. however, the quote you provided does not really show that I misrepresented you. After all, don't you agree with the historians you quoted? You were responding to Jack, who said he never really paid the palestine issue much attention or something along that line.
QuoteYou see, Mr Fulcher one cannot boast understanding world politics, economics and legal theories without a good knowledge of Jewish - Muslim conflicts. True to God anything that happens in the world right from the days of the crusades have one to one relationship with Jewish-Muslims conflict.
I fail to see the major difference b/w your words here and the historians you quoted. Or is there a difference? Anyways, once again, my sincere apologies; i know how annoying it is to feel misread.
Salam
Just i side thought. What is wrong with the Jews???????
I was very unfortunate to be teamed up with one of them as room mates on my campus.
Oh how i loathe him!
Not only is the guy jewish, he is gay as well.........
I initially thought the guys were just normal beings but my interaction with one of them leaves a very very bad impression on my part.
For one, they are dirty, the orthodox ones. They think they know more than everyone. They are very selfish and arrogant. They are always scheming, even in sleep i believe. They have a evil plot- Ie to take over the world. THIS IS TRUE no matter what they say.
Thats not to say all of theem are, but in my opinion most of them are.
A tir da sharrin yahudawa.
Bissalam
QuoteBtw Ibro,
1) Why the suicidal method of furthering the cause? Is suicide tolerated in Islam? Someone started a thread on this question a while ago and I think the answer was a strong 'no'. So why do we support them in such an action?
2) Why does the resistance attack civilian targets? Why don't they limit their targets to military ones? Are their enemies to be found in a restaurant, in the marketplace, at a wedding celebration? Are such attacks really permitted in Islam?
I ask these questions because as you said in your response, you are guided by Islamic principles. These principles have become the point of fierce debate in the U.S. since 9/11. Iearnestly await your reply.
Well Lionger, thank you for being a Nigerian, ;D whom are the only peeps who answer you a question by answering another. But just for u, I wouldnt be one now. 8)
Sucide is completely absolutely wrong, moraly and Islamically(nost importantly)... And I'm not supporting sucide bombers(take to note), I only sympatise with the oppressed and stand up for my brother muslims. Furthermore, my post was simply asking for the reason (4 I believe everyhing has a reason) why such innocent souls will be driven into sucide attacks. What ever it is must be a horror!
Other ways of attack? I dont know any, do u? You see lionger, Palestinians are pushed to the wall of all walls. Security is not even the case but protection. Too many of thier fathers, brothers and sisters have paid in blood and land, in freedom and in peace, yet nothing ever stopped as the world watched. And it's still happening. what ever it is that causes sucide attacks, even if it is evil if thats the was you want to put it(astagafirillah!), then I suppose it has to be checked since its evident you cant fight fire with fire, and thats what is still being done. Islamically there is no situation in which one is to commit sucide whatsoever, but most scholars today rather say the palestinian situation is controvercial. And I stick to that.
Your second question, No!!! Muslims must not be the ones looking for trouble or disturbing the piece, better yet to that whom hasn't hurt you.(whoever it is). Now this is one problem sucide bombers that claim islam all over the world are missing. Islam is a peace ful religion and one must not raise a finger at anyone if that person hasnt raised a finger against you. Most if not all Islamic wars should be due to protection only.(correct mi if I'm mistaken). This is som'n we must all know, attacking peeple where ever it is is completely wrong. It has to be something that will cripple whatever is attacking islam which they have failed to so far!
I'm a muslim, in support of Islam not sucide atacks, in support and ready but only for the right Jihad, and seeker of peace and Justice without being cheated in anyway. The world is a long way from achieving this. And except the super powers intercept and do what is right instead of becoming jewish bodies, the world will know no peace!(do I sound like a movie? well its real!) I await replyyyysssss
Actually lionger no need to apologise if you can understand that my own opinion as you quoted above only goes to conclude that world history is a story of Muslims and Jews only from the days of the crusades. That is 1050 A.C to date not from beginning of times to date as those historians or the Bible would have us to believe.
And it is easy for me to defend myself if you can contest that.
lionger, what I would want you to be doing always in any intellectual exposition, is when you debunk a claim provide an alternative to it from rational or factual point of view.
For example, when Ibro said all the wars fought after WWII were against Islam which you obviously contest, what we expect from you is to tell us exactly what they were against if not Islam. But you simply proceeded living a wide vaccum.
You denied us from holding our opinion and did not provide us with alternative opinion. You are living us to hang on the air without anything to hold afterall you know this situation always leaves men to nothing but a huge vulnerability to total CRASHING.
This is just the point.
I in all honesty admire the courage and dedication of Ibro and Lionger to these sensitive grounds, topics that many troded with embellishments resulted from emotional chaos, althogh i was born a muslim and by name am still one, i will not confine my thoughts or intellect to the exclusive teachings of any religion u can call it a sort of a Marxist way of life,( not that im one )
in the entangled web of the worlds economical religious and political campaigns resides a much more broader deception than many of us seem to notice, and to wholly side with any party based on religious affiliations and shared spiritual beliefs in my opinion is an act of negligence, for there is no religion on the face of earth that did not at one point or another perpetrated and inflicted demise on some parts of the earth, i do not critisize the fundamental teachings islam rather the way of which certain figures in it utilised it to fulfill personal intrests, in cases like the Abbasid Khaliphites both the first and the second period, the Othman impire prticularly crumbled because of their imbellishment of Islamic principals to acquire lands and wealth, and many more followed,needless to mention how Christianity at one point utilized the teachings of Bible to sanction and justify slavery,if my memory serves me correct the one of the first two slave ships that docked in the beaches of africa was named " The good ship jeasus "the jewish involvement went further in history,but i will tackle a more recent event,The basterdazation and occupation of palastinian territories, the act itself not being my main focus rather the mothods that ware applied to carry it out, i will clearly indicate that many of us tackle subjects without any extensive reserch or authoritative knowledge in them, i do not claim to have any of the above qualities but i believe that i have more than an avrage insight,
The inhibitation of palastine itself is a justifiable enough event when u consider what happened prior to that, and as a human being i believe that every being has a fundamental right to a land food and sheter , this is a basic principal, and didnt Allah clearly confirmed this when he said in the holy quran:" famshu fiy manakibihaa wa kulu min rizqih" ? *translation: "and thou traverse on its tracts and nourish from my wealth" refering to the earth by "its" ,there is endless of verses that empowerd this one,
but what is oblivious to most people is the means of which the Zionist organisation imposed to obtain this land,to comprehend matters one must find it necessary to first make a distinction between the JEWS and the ZIONIST organisation
i do not want to bore you guys with historical commentaries but its unavoidable in this case so please find it from the wealth of your intellectual curiosity to endure the torment:
LAND WITHOUT PEOPLE FOR PEAOPLE WITHOUT A LAND
The most prevailant myth in this case is that which claims the Zionist as the moral legetee of the victims of the holucaust, now what is perticularly savage in the irony that surrounds this claim is that the Zionist movement and leaders ware infact one of the active collaborators with the perpetrators of the holocaust they participated in the suppration of the jewish resistance, to clarify matters i will assert that the objection of the zionist movement was never to colonise palastine in the manner of which colonial powers colonized africa and asia and yes latin america, but their objection was to obtain resources and cheap labor , thus the evalued purpose of the Zionist was not merely to exploit the palastinian people but to disperse and dispossess them the intent was to replace the indignous population with a new settlar community and to eradicate the farmers artisans and the town dwellers of palastine and subtitude the work force composed of a settler population, so in denying the existance of palastinian people the zionist sought to create a political conditioning for their removal not merely from their lands but from history this procedure began in the last quater of the 19th century and continue to this very day, thus the zionist sought throughtout its inception the alternative imperial supponsors for the enterprise they then aproached the Tzar the french the british and the US , all of who jumped at the chance to have somebody represent their commercial intrest in the palastinian area this fueled by the possibility of utilizing the suez canal for their military and commercial prposes.wasnt it Mussolini that openly funded the zionist youth movement? perticularly baitkhar whose leader was Manekhem Beikham wo wore the black shirt and gave the fascist salute which was changed to a brown shirt at the time of Hitler and Nazism, the zionist nation did not in any documented history oppose the Nazi party on the contrary they gave their open support to the Nazi party and enlisted as one of its supponsors, this is confirmed by the event where the zionist movement of Shemir made a formal military pact with the Vladmire ( an officer of hitler )the documments supporting this factor ware discovered in the German embassy in Ankhra in 1949 and are known as the Ankhra documents to any poli sci. scholar worth his name, so in understanding the perticular political and ideological caracter of the zionissm not just in relation to its victim people of palastine but notably to the JEWS themselves, we will then come to comprehend the cruel irony of the ways of which the Zionist has wrapped itself into the collective shrouds of the 6 million victims of the holocaust,and took it opon themselves with the help of europe and america to impose on the palastinian people a fate rather like that of the jews in europe.
after decades of destabilization liquidation and imposing of imperial policy on the middle east and the rest of the third world America isreal and certain European countries still posed in a defensive posture using security as the megaforce of their operations in certain occupied areas,
as an american who also happened to live in tel aviv for some time i would not be quick in deeming americans or jews as a potencial target of resistance rather the imperial powers that they let represent them in the face of the world Al_hamza even though im not in total support of your opinion i still blame the masses for allowing the unjustice in iraq palastine and most other third world countries its not correct to say there was no resistance in the US against the government i myself participated in a few rallies,but there is just not enough of it, in conclusion i would adress the enigmatic dilemma that seems to surround the topic of suicide bombings, suicide might be a forbidding action in all major religions, yet an affective method when applied well in a revolution sometimes sacrifices of even self is necessary to obtain victory in the struggle of resistance i know many of us are aware of the infamous hausa term "KUNAR BAKIN WAKE"and the folklore behind it,i know in my heart that if some forces are to invade Zaria and start raping and murdering my sisters and mother i will voluntarily strap myself with explosives enter their territory and decombust, in understanding of a primitive human nature u will realise that any living organism will do whatever i stress "whatever" it has to do to maintaing balance, its called survival another simple principal , to borrow the japanese proverb WHY WORRY ABOUT YOUR BEARD WHEN YOUR HEAD IS ABOUT TO BE CUT OFF ?
first and foremost i would like to render apologies to any person who took the time to read my post, for the misspellings gramatical and writing errors, i wrote the whole thing in extreme hurry and did not take the time to make corrections it must have been of a great dicomfort to ya'll,forgive.
in response to certain points in this thread i will set motion first towards the minor misunderstandings between Waziri and Lionger, Waziri as a fair enough prolific writer myself im concious of how vaig words can be sometimes if not carved and chisseled precisely, to evoke certain responses, i can easily see how Lionger can interprete" Some historians say "History is nothing more than the story of Jews and Muslim" as "You see, Mr Fulcher one cannot boast understanding world politics, economics and legal theories without a good knowledge of Jewish - Muslim conflicts. True to God anything that happens in the world right from the days of the crusades have one to one relationship with Jewish-Muslims conflict"
i would say its just a category mistake and wouldnt take an offence to it.
Lionger although i find many of your points tremendously valid, and further more recognise your stand point as the more neutral one i strongly disagree with certain assertion in your post such as :
"You still haven't explained y the resistance has to use suicidal methods; you mean they can't attack the Israelis w/out killing themselves? Its not like they have nothing else to live for; most of these ppl have spouses and families that depend on them. If their lives r now worthless cuz of severe earthly discomforts then their faith is useless. So why must they also kill themselves? These ppl must believe that a big reward awaits them in heaven if they go this way. Is this true? And this suicide 'waiver' u talk abot, al hamza, is it written in the Quran?"
in the tradition of revolutions and guerilla warfare there has been many tactics and methods none of which are yet to be deemed thoroughly saintlike, even Ghandi had an alternative violence plan in case the peacefull revolution fails,many methods can be looked at as primitive and unorthodox when applied but still many of these methods have proven affective, when chairman Mao led the masses from southern china to beijing duaring the communist movement he sacrificed many chinese women and children in the process intentionally or not there was still human casualties, suicide bombings is a tactic that was practiced by many nations before any islamic country adopted the methodology, the infamous japanese Kamikazi pilots ware all suicide bombers,
can the palastinians kill the israelis without killing themselves ? for a seemingly intelligent person this is a very trivial question if u are aware of the level of organisation weapons&ammunition,funding and training the israeli army recieves then u will understand that YES the palastinians need human shells to transport their explosives im not going to do a one on one dissection of your centences but generally u seem to take warfare lightly yes they have families and spouses who depend on them , also who are about to become casualties if their husbands and sons do not get the message across clearly, their lives are not worthless cuz of " severe earthly discomforts" their lives are worthless cuz its going to end pretty soon if they do not take action.
"These ppl must believe that a big reward awaits them in heaven if they go this way " this statement saddens me the most not because its an ovious understatement and over simplifying of the issue but because it emerged from a person whose intellect i respect , c'mon bro this is one of the most FOX news advertised and propagated post 9-11 clich?s ever! it used to be that "the muslims commit suicide because of heavenly promisses of 60 virgins" i was in new york pre and post 9-11 and personally heard or overheard these vaig statements , this type of recklessness should only emerge from mouths that acquired their data through fox and NBC channel sitting in the protective comforts of their living room following the events as a daily entertainment , not people who posess an enermous comprehention abilities, its not only a poorly composed propaganda but an insult to ones intellect,how can anyone convince any person with even an ounce of intelligence that humanbeings will in the 21rst century die tragically for some heavenly promise?as for the question of innocent casualties YES its an unjustifiable thing but then so is war itself! once two parties engage in a mortal combat, all questions of moral and ethical righteousness are void the only good war is the one that dosent take place, there is no history of any war that went smoothly, the only justification is of reasons and causes not the act of killing itself.
PEACE
^
What's happening between the Palestinians and Isrealis is nothing but oppression from one side and that's onbehalf of the jews. The Palestinian people are forced to use suicide attacks given the fact that they have nothing else to live for. WHAT I really want to find out is JIHAD? WHat is Jihad? Why do non muslims have to suffer Jihad? I am not talking about christians I'm talking about people of other religions such as Hindu, Tao or whatever. Many people who died on 9/11 shouldn't have, didn't deserve death because most of them had no affiliations whatever their government is doing. One of the forumites talked about Jihad, does that mean that Islam muct rule the world cos my understanding of Jihad is a fight to convert people to Islam by force.
MaQari,
Welcome to Kano-online! The comments I made in my last post were from a strictly religious point of view. My case is that if kano-online's support for the palestinians is largely rooted in islamic principles and solidarity w/ their muslim brethren, then are they also in support of the resistance' seemingly unislamic actions? So of course I understand the logistics of guerilla warfare and such, but since the resistance takes strong pride in its islamic heritage, how does this heritage influence the way they fight? Or does it?
Committing suicide is one thing; taking innocent civilians w/ u is quite another. If we want to call this a war, fine, but I've noticed that israeli civilians make up a huge portion of the resistance targets, and this is a great insult to Islam and quite unacceptable IMO. Just because these guys claim to be muslims, or that their victims are our arch-nemesis Jews, does not make this excusable. Once again I ask, where is their faith?
Lastly, my assertion that 'these ppl must believe that a big reward awaits them in heaven if they go this way' now seems quite grievious and I must apologise. I particularly detest the US news media and their jingoist leanings, though I must say, I've heard similary words on this forum. What I do know is that groups like the Hamas are certainly not bereft of some Islamic ideological base (or a twisted form of it).
Lionger
thanx for the warm gestures,im touched LOL,nah but seriously its pleasing, i apologize for my late appearence ,(being a graphic junky is a very tiresome proffesion) about the comments in my post, i dont know if u've read the post that proceeds the above one , i will pretend like u have and continue, i precisely indicated in my post that i do not support any thought of leberation that is exclusively based on a religious affiliation, here are my exact words:
"in the entangled web of the worlds economical religious and political campaigns resides a much more broader deception than many of us seem to notice, and to wholly side with any party based on religious affiliations and shared spiritual beliefs in my opinion is an act of negligence, for there is no religion on the face of earth that did not at one point or another perpetrated and inflicted demise on some parts of the earth,"
i paid the most attention to your reply because it seemed the most neutral one , im not making any judgement on validity only perspective, as far as warfare methodology is concerned i'd rather cease discussing it for ive already stated that its logically unjustifiable, thanx for the dedication of your time and intellect in response to my post.ONE
Personally, I don't endorse fighting back by "suicide bombing". It ain't right even in the religion. But all this depends on what perspective you look at things. The palestinians, have to fight back whenever they r oppressed, and as we all know the only way they can do this is by this method of giving up their lives. Now I will only agree with this if they honestly do it in the name of God and the faith, but when this is done in the name of race or land... please! Our religion has told us that the jews r our sworn enemies till life on earth is over, and we have no option but to accept this, it's also quite obvious. And we r required to fight however necessary, for the sake of God. Someone in the course of this discussion asked why do the palestinians target civilians? Don't be myopic, do we not see daily the hundreds of people that die during America's conquests or battles around the world, how many families have been destroyed, families that don't even know what's going on! Just yesterday I was watching CNN and they did a story on the civilians that keep getting killed by foolish American soldiers who get scared by the slightest sounds around them and start spraying bullets at innocent people. A little girl was shot in the head during a wedding ceremoney in Iraq, Can u believe that!
QuoteSomeone in the course of this discussion asked why do the palestinians target civilians? Don't be myopic, do we not see daily the hundreds of people that die during America's conquests or battles around the world, how many families have been destroyed, families that don't even know what's going on! Just yesterday I was watching CNN and they did a story on the civilians that keep getting killed by foolish American soldiers who get scared by the slightest sounds around them and start spraying bullets at innocent people. A little girl was shot in the head during a wedding ceremoney in Iraq, Can u believe that!
Myopic?I guess we could shoot a little American girl and call it even, eh? Is it allright to kill innocent civilians just because the other side does? I asked b4 and I ask again: where is their faith? That Islamic tag had better be ignored for its own sake.
If you believe the Jews r sworn enemies, and this is a war, allright but then no need beating up a tantrum w/ the latest Israeli/american crimes in Iraq, Afghanistan, guatanamo bay etc. cuz in this very unconventional war, both sides are accusing each other of the same thing.
Lastly, I think it might do us some good to go back and revisit the state of affairs in the 90s. All these fiery words may have sounded a little off-key then.
I strongly think we are miss'n the basic point here.
If you do belive there is a Globallisation say Aye
If you do belive that globalisation is world dominance by a discriminant say Aye
And If you think those discriminants are Jews say Aye
Well Aye Aye Aye...
Ibro, what is globalization?
Salam,
Lionger please do not interpret what suicide is in islam to muslims. What the palestinian resistance groups are doing..to the outside world may be suicide and but a muslim jurist may interpret it diffrently from his religious point of view. although I am not here trying to even imagine his interpretation.
Attacking civilians...have they ever attacked jews living in US or UK. why only the "civilians" living on palestinians land?
Remember there are hundreds of thousand of palestines outside the so called plestine teritories...they are refuges because thier homeland happen to be in the israel side of the land. they are refused right to be settled back even under israeli authority because they will "undermine" the jewish population of Israel.
If some people say from Europe come to Nigeria and settled down claiming that their god chose the land for them we may accept them as 'settlers', but imagine if they say we should all get out of our country so as not to undermine their population...will you still claim they are civilians?
Any Jew who migrated to Israel is no longer a civilian. Take it or leave it the truth is one.
It s been long...by the way how is everybody?
Long time no see, Eskimo ?;D
Quote
Lionger please do not interpret what suicide is in islam to muslims. What the palestinian resistance groups are doing..to the outside world may be suicide and but a muslim jurist may interpret it diffrently from his religious point of view. although I am not here trying to even imagine his interpretation.
see me see trouble; i based my coments on the words of ur fellow muslim brothers here:
http://www.kanoonline.com/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.pl?board=general;action=display;num=1063479816
QuoteAttacking civilians...have they ever attacked jews living in US or UK. why only the "civilians" living on palestinians land?
What is your point? Did the Munich '72 Olympics tragedy occur in a vacuum? Does that ring a bell?
Quote
Remember there are hundreds of thousand of palestines outside the so called plestine teritories...they are refuges because thier homeland happen to be in the israel side of the land. they are refused right to be settled back even under israeli authority because they will "undermine" the jewish population of Israel.
If some people say from Europe come to Nigeria and settled down claiming that their god chose the land for them we may accept them as 'settlers', but imagine if they say we should all get out of our country so as not to undermine their population...will you still claim they are civilians?
What does the word 'civilian' mean?
Quote
Any Jew who migrated to Israel is no longer a civilian. Take it or leave it the truth is one.
I strongly disagree. I believe in the truth that sets one free, and frankly this your 'truth' will only keep me a slave to hatred, much less the Jews. A palestinian civilian is as much a human being as an Israeli civilian and deserves all the rights and freedoms the other has. Just because I happen to be born in an Israeli family does not mean I deserve to die. Who knows, maybe i'm not even comfortable w. the actions of my govt.! Yet we'll come here and scream about guatanamo bay and U.S. indiscriminate bias; are we really better than they?
I guess the right to nurture what would otherwise be severely discriminatory and genocidal views must be accepted in this forum. But don't turn around and say Islam is a religion of peace until we r ready to put our money where our mouth is. How on earth can we say we want peace, and yet hold fact stubbornly to such attitudes? And last, but by no means least, What do you have to say to the Israeli muslims that make up 14% of the population?
I believe some israelis are not happy with the action of their govt, but know that majority are happy with their govt action. If not, we know israel is practising democracy so let see it in action. israel allows those few muslims arab on its land to show the world that it is a multi cultural/relgious society with majority jews.
Okay..I accept that I was trying to push an explanation to you, I was a lil emotional. In my opinion the issue of suicide is good or otherwise doesnt even arise in the case of the palestine. That is the only way they can resist occupation.
Let the pple of israel do something..like pushing their govt to accept two state solution with all sincerity. If they are tired of being attacked. Everybody want peace...but I believe peace doesnt come when it is needed only by words not actions.
If I were to have my way..I dont see nothing wrong with the palestines and the jews staying in the same country (one state solution) with a govt of unity. Let the refuges return to their lands..let there be a neutral country where everyone has equal right. afterall the land of palestine consisted of all the three major religions before this Israeli segragation started.
Has anyone heard about the Ballfour decxlaration by Dr. Nahum Goldman, The President of the WORLD JEWISH COUNCIL in 1948?