Arewa, Traditional Rulers & Ulamas

Cekenah · February 05, 2009, 06:00:52 PM

I concur with Dan Borno. Wrong thread for the clip!

Dave_McEwan_Hill · February 06, 2009, 01:12:44 AM

Myself

I expressed no opinion about what he woman said except that it was controversial. It would be useful if you were to answer some of her points if you think she is wrong rather than just shouting.
However I did not send this link to cause arguement but to cause thought.

gogannaka · February 06, 2009, 01:29:52 AM

Quote from: Lawwali on February 04, 2009, 05:19:34 PM

To GGK, i will say the traditional rulers are only used in quenching crisis such that the masses can be (mis)governed peacefully.
Tell me any traditional ruler in Nigeria that has a say in what projects are to be executed by a state or federal govt. Or tell me a traditional ruler that emphasises for the betterment of his subjects' lives. Most times as DB rightly said, they cant even come about and made their positions Known on any issue in this country.
Behold!!! No Religion or traditional institution intrinsically promotes Begging, sycophancy, poverty and all sort of backwardness.
Just own up to failure to descharge responsibility.

Haba Lawwali and DB,let us not be too sentimental and overlook the contributiions the traditional rulers make.
I have witnessed several instances whereby they boldly make their positions known. A very recent example is the statements made uptill now, by the Sultan regarding the Jos crisis. Almost everywhere the sultan goes he reiterate his stand on bringing the Jos culprits to justice no matter how highly placed they are.
The Plateau Governor recently sent a delegation to the Emir of Kano seeking his intervention in bringing and end to the frequent crisis in the state. Infact many many examples could be mentioned where their interventions are required. If it wasn't effective i'm sure no one would care to seek their interventions.

In terms of land disputes also,the traditional rulers come in handy. If you have ever witnessed a case involving land (farmlands especially) in the rural areas you wouldn't have dissed the roles traditional rulers play in the society. Usually people expect too much from them not considering the fact that they have very limited powers.

Waduz,the Ulama's nowadays propagate the religion with their own sentiments attached. Ulama's are now PDP or ANPP or otherwise. Many of them are after the Hajj seat or some Govt incentive.

HUSNAA · February 06, 2009, 05:18:13 AM

I used to be under the impression that all traditional rulers were useless. However, I think it is outlook exposure, youthfulness, acumen and a hefty amount of education that makes the difference between an effectively useful traditional ruler and a useless figurehead. Like GGNK pointed out there are some effective (within their limited permitted jurisdiction) traditional rulers, e.g. the current Sultan of Sokoto is a radical departure from those who came before him. The same can be said about Jokolo the deposed Emir of Gwandu, whose feet, Aliero is not even fit to wipe, when it comes to education and pedigree, but who because of being the then govenor of Kebbi heaped humiliations upon humiliations on him. Unfortunately, the calibre of such traditional rulers is not widespread. I dont know of any other that I hold in high regard (maybe you members members know others). At any rate until we have forward thinking individuals annointed as traditional rulers, then its the old guard style that we will continue to have.

As for Ulamas, well I havent much to say on the matter. Let me have a look at the famously controversial clip Dave's posted first!! ;D

usman11 · February 06, 2009, 05:53:31 AM

It is typical of some people to attempt to slander those who challenge religious order. Why not focus on refuting what the woman said instead of attacking her personally? The baseless allegation that she and others like her work for the CIA, FBI, and other Federal agencies has never been established, and there has never been any proof or suggestion of such an alliance. But tell me something, why do non Muslim Arabs absolutely hate Islam as you stated?

Lawwali · February 06, 2009, 09:52:37 AM

Well, i tried getting that Deve's link, but my window player refused, i had wanted to see and try to respond to her a points. Because, i know a secular muslim cannot represents what islam is. And is important for any secular thinking muslim or muslims to know that islam is a religion of compulsion (No Compulsion in islam, whosoever refrain from worship of other diety and believe in ALLAH, Verily he hold unto the strong rope that will never cut, and ALLAH is all hearing all knowing- Qur'nic Verse). One can choose not to be a muslim. But whoever chose to be one, he must live the way islam decreed. period.

It is important to know that we the muslim believes that this world is just a transit to the great beyond and we shall account for all our actions and reactions. Our beliefs are Non-negotiable and non-compromiseable to the western ideology. we shall not be coarced into living a life we did not choose. Muslims are being hoaded everywhere in the world, which freedom and equality are they talking about. You can count and count endlessly. Eg Iran is being forced to halt its uranium enrichment such they cannot attain nuclear capability while Israel, US, Russsia, and many of their allies already possesed Nuclear weapons, which equality are talking about? that Muslims must tolerate nuclear non-muslim nations but non-muslims cannot tolerate nuclear muslim nations. This is absurd and illogical. Am sorry for going out of the thread.

I will appreciate if this thread will center on the topic, which is the action of our ulamas and traditional rulers towards the Development of Arewa or Nigeria. But we cannot stand to see Backwardness and terrorism being attributed to our religion in the name of food for thought. I, in the earlier post highlighted how clerics and traditional rulers emancipate societies from the shackles of capitalism, imperialism,dictatorship, terrorism, and secularism; (ottoman empire, Uthman Bn Fodio, Iran). But it appears some people have an agenda of Blasphemy (am sorry if this is harsh- freedom of expression?)

Lawwali · February 06, 2009, 10:11:56 AM

please, Dave forward me the main website, i am really interested in seeing visiting it, Thank you Dave.

GGK, you repeated what i said, traditional rulers are only used in Quenching possible ungovernability of the masses. now tell me when Haruna Jakolo was deposed what was the position of the Traditional rulers or any individual among them? they muted, the deposed sultan Dasuki was apparently celebrating, because he believes Jakolo is an ally of Abatcha regime, so you see it is a personal politics. Not interest of the masses , ko ba Haka ba?

HUSNAA · February 06, 2009, 12:32:30 PM

I have seen the clip in which the woman gave her very strong anti islamic views. What is disappointing is that who ever edited that clip must have done so in a biased way, because we only hear her own impassioned denunciations and we dont get to hear what the Ulama had to say although he rightly pointed out that since she is a herectic there was no point in replying her. Quite so.
BTW as a muslim, I dont agree with a single statement she made, however, to give a muhsineque response, one needs to digest and think about what she said before giving any precipitate replies. So until then.

Dave_McEwan_Hill · February 06, 2009, 10:15:41 PM

Lawwali

Pakistan is a Moslem nation and has nuclear arms. The fact is that those who have nuclear arms don't want anybody else to get them and it is nothing to do with religion.
I made the point that democracy and theocracy are incompatible. I believe this and I also know that Moslems have the absolute right to practice their religion in all of Europe as I have the right to practice mine. As far as I am concerned nobody has the right to interfere in anybody else's religious practice as long as that religious practice harms nobody else.
It used to be different in Europe and for centuries politicians used religion and people killed each other in the name of religion. Thankfully we have left this behind now.
It is also anybody's right to believe in no religion at all.

usman11 · February 07, 2009, 05:06:15 PM

Myself, I am not into any argument either. I just think it makes good sense to debunk, refute, or challenge whatever claims someone makes instead of attacking the individual. My question to you was to explain the reasons why non Muslim Arabs hate Islam/Muslims as you stated in your piece. If your assertion is in fact true, I am interested in knowing why. You however, responded by asking me a totally irrelevant and unrelated question regarding child abuse amongst Catholic priests. I have no problem having a discussion about child molesting priests with you. This is an issue that is in the open, and should be exposed, and dealt with seriously and accordingly.
The guilty priests are pediophiles. There is something obviously seriously wrong with men that desire sex or other deviant sexual gratification with young boys. It is illegal in this country, and guilty persons are sentenced to maximum prison terms. There is justice for the abused child. Child protection laws are seriously enforced to ensure children are protected and removed from undafe environments. This has nothing to do with religion. Pediophilia cuts across cultures, races, religions, societies, etc. Many of the Catholic priests found guilty were indicted by the courts and sentenced to lengthy jail terms. Several of the Archdioceses in the East Coast reached huge financial settlements with victims of the abuse. Above all, the Catholic church held a national meeting of Bishops and Church leaders for a week in D.C to deal with the scandal that had soiled its image. The Pope met with many victims of the abuse and acknowledged the crime.
Now, keep in mind that all this was very public. The American media were only too happy to keep the news alive and heap appropriate blame on the Church for its failure in handling the problem even though it became known that some Bishops were re-assaigning accused priests to other diocese, where the problem continued.

So you see Myself, this is not a society of Christians that hide or defend embarrassing incidents. The question is can you have the same open and invasive dialogue if it relates to your beliefs?
So, tell me now that I answered your question, why do non-Muslim Arabs hate Islam? You made that statement, and I want you to provide detailed reasons.

Thanks.

usman11 · February 07, 2009, 07:54:56 PM

Myself, I think you misunderstood me. I did NOT ask you to tell me why an Arab would leave Islam. I never asked that question. People leave their faiths or change beliefs all the time for many reasons, I know that. My question to you was in reference to the statement you made about non Muslim Arabs hating Islam. You made the comment in your earlier post that non Muslim Arabs living in Islamic nations hate Islam or Muslims. I merely asked why because you made the comment very authoritatively, and I thought you had detailed answers are to cause of the sour relationship.

I have seen the link you provided and I have to tell you though, this is NOT the 'editted' part of the link Dave posted. This is something completely different and has no connection to Dave's link. If you do a search on youtube, you'll see the link Dave posted along with other expanded versions where Dr. Sultan was challenged by a feisty Imam who accused her of heresy. That link is quite interesting, and also quite different from this one.

The link you have provided (at least the first one) shows a black Muslim brother in a monologue. All he does is focus on Dr. Wafa the person, and then points out the sins of the West in return. You'll agree with me that this is hardly the standards by which to refute someone's submissions. I would rather see him break down the assertions of Dr. Sultan one by one. For instance, when she said the Muslims burnt down worship place of Buddhists or burnt down churches as a expression of their rage. Is that false? Or when she says young Muslim boys are indoctrinated to become suicide bombers. Is that false? If so, then it should be refuted and contrary evidence or examples provided to prove that her statement are indeed false. That is how things are refuted, at least in my view.

In any case, Dr. Sultan's 'heresy' is not unique. There are other Islamic women toeing the same line as she is. If this phenomenum continues and more women begin to grow 'balls', the Middle East might have a women's revolution on its hands, and I wonder what the usually dominant men would do.... ;D

Check out this other woman Myself....this obviously is giving authorities in those region concern.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyIYKqMQLBs&feature=related

Dave_McEwan_Hill · February 08, 2009, 01:31:41 AM

There are some very brave women coming to the forefront in demanding rights for women in the Arab world. It is not my place to make comment except to say that I believe woman is the equal to man and this will eventually be recognised throughout the whole world. But the victory will not be given to women. They will have to win it by their effort.

My very good friend and the Scottish parliamen's first Islamic MP Bashir Ahmad died suddenly yesterday and was buried today and I am very upset. This was a man who fought as hard for the Catholic schools in his area as he fought for all the Islamic organisations he was a member off. Scotland's First Minister described him as the "kindest man I have ever met." We will miss him badly.

Lawwali · February 09, 2009, 04:36:19 PM

Quote from: Dave_McEwan_Hill on February 08, 2009, 01:31:41 AM
There are some very brave women coming to the forefront in demanding rights for women in the Arab world. It is not my place to make comment except to say that I believe woman is the equal to man and this will eventually be recognised throughout the whole world. But the victory will not be given to women. They will have to win it by their effort.

My very good friend and the Scottish parliamen's first Islamic MP Bashir Ahmad died suddenly yesterday and was buried today and I am very upset. This was a man who fought as hard for the Catholic schools in his area as he fought for all the Islamic organisations he was a member off. Scotland's First Minister described him as the "kindest man I have ever met." We will miss him badly.

Ah!!! Dave, may His soul rest in peace, i do hope many of his type will be raised to immortalise His Good work.

Muhsin · February 09, 2009, 07:20:51 PM

Quote from: Dave_McEwan_Hill on February 08, 2009, 01:31:41 AM
My very good friend and the Scottish parliamen's first Islamic MP Bashir Ahmad died suddenly yesterday and was buried today and I am very upset. This was a man who fought as hard for the Catholic schools in his area as he fought for all the Islamic organisations he was a member off. Scotland's First Minister described him as the "kindest man I have ever met." We will miss him badly.

May his soul rest in peace, ameen.

You really have been discussing on a very good issue. Although many replies, I fear, drailed away/out of thread's topic sentence. LOL ;D A usual thing here and on many other discussion fora.

Muhsin