Jews and Muslims

[Jack_Fulcher]

You know, Eskimo, I respect you and your opinions, and always look forward to your posts, but I need to point one thing out to you before I go to work.  You suggest that the West only cares about the plight of Christians and the Muslim world only cares about Muslims.  I think that what the US did in Bosnia in the 1990s shows that you are wrong about the West.  We intervened in that conflict and saved a lot of Muslims from being killed by the Christians there.  We did this, not for oil or markets for any other gain, but because it was the right thing to do.  Like removing Sadam, something you all should have been trying to do.  I agree that most of what we have done, like supporting the Saudi royal family, is for our own gain and is short-sighted, but this is true of all countries.  It's just more visible with us because we're the big boys on the block and can throw our weight around more.  But please don't forget Bosnia.  Jack

• Tweet

[Jack_Fulcher]

I posted something here this morning, and the computer says that I posted something (it says that I was the last poster), but the post is nowhere to be seen.  Actually, in the recap of all the posts in this thread I see below, it is listed.  Looks like some sort of bug in the system.  I'll try again:

You know, Eskimo, I respect you and your opinions, and always look forward to your posts, but I need to point one thing out to you before I go to work.  You suggest that the West only cares about the plight of Christians and the Muslim world only cares about Muslims.  I think that what the US did in Bosnia in the 1990s shows that you are wrong about the West.  We intervened in that conflict and saved a lot of Muslims from being killed by the Christians there.  We did this, not for oil or markets for any other gain, but because it was the right thing to do.  Like removing Sadam, something you all should have been trying to do.  I agree that most of what we have done, like supporting the Saudi royal family, is for our own gain and is short-sighted, but this is true of all countries.  It's just more visible with us because we're the big boys on the block and can throw our weight around more.  But please don't forget Bosnia.  Jack

• Tweet

[Eskimo]

okay okay   Bosnia

• Tweet

[maleek]

yeah right,

i knew someone would bring up the bosnia issue on the table. the americans were asked by the european union to stop the fight in bosnia, if they would really care so much about muslims why is it that virtually all the wars after vietnam have been carried out against muslim nations??? (except some actions in nicaragua and panama) if the us loves moslims so much then why are they blocking (recently, this week) un resolutions on israel in the security council?

you better stop hypocrism, face the truth america is PRO ISRAEL, and some christian union or whatever which gave funding to george bush are 100% solidary to israel. too bad, but the us is just fucked up in lies and hypocrism.

• Tweet

[ummita]

but the us is just fucked up in lies and hypocrism.

D only thing that caught mah eyes was ur avator....Its so beautiful but errrr......d swearin part :-/ I mean from d avator it shows pureeee cleanliness but wat came from ur mouff nah abomination. (that was funni

• Tweet

[maleek]

sorry girl, i did not notice that cussword slippin into my reply,  but anyway, the sin of the tongue.....

• Tweet

[lionger]

What about Kosovo?

I've opposed many of the US' post Sept. 11 actions on this forum, but the fact still remains that many of us are WAY OFF ?and naive in thinking that the U.S. is anti-Islam. We are continually guilty of mixing politics with religion. In addition to Bosnia, I will also mention Kosovo, which I've already mentioned many times on this forum as another balancing argument. This is a case where the US once again bypassed the UN and attacked Serbia thru NATO. What will many of us say to that? Coming up with all sorts of excuses is ridiculous and smacks of hypocrisy: Saddam Hussein has been persecuting the majority shias in Iraq for so many years, but when the U.S.-U.K. coalition moved in unjustly, we all cry 'infidel', great satan, anti-Islam, ?etc. Is this a balanced view?

I asked Eskimo to define what the terms 'christian world' and 'muslim world' cuz this is the crux of the problem. In this area you finely defined as the muslim world, religious tolerance is greatly restricted, and in cases of some countries like Saudi Arabia, hardly existent. Persecution against Hindus, shias, christians and bah'ai is rampant. I say this based on the records of UN NGOs and Amnesty International, and I dare any of you to challenge their objectivity, cuz they do not spare the West and in particular the U.S.

The point is, we should not become hypocrites by insinuating that 'muslims' like Saddam are justified in persecuting others but outsiders are not. Fatwas are pronounced on ppl who defame islam in their writings, like Salman Rushdie and Isioma Daniel. But where is the fatwa declaration against those that killed thousands of innocents on Sept. 11 and brought Islam into disrepute, and gave the U.S. a good excuse to persecute your muslim brethren even more? ?As a final argument: during the cold war, the survival of humanity prevailed over the rivalry b/w nuclear superpowers U.S and USSR such that nuclear weapons were never used. If nuclear weapons should ever fall in the hands of 'resisitance organizations' like the Hamas, and Alquaeda, would they also be held back by the appeal of humanity, or spurred to carry out God's will against the great Satan and Israel?

Like I said b4 in my first post on this thread, we must condemn evil wherever we see it, even in our own backyard. And we must aknowledge good wherever we see it, ?even if it comes from the 'anti-islamic' west, christians, or the Jews. Anything short of that is partiality, and only contributes to the problems of today's world.

• Tweet

[maleek]

[color=000033]look, bosnia, kosovo and any other missions in that balcan region are a result of the bosnia peacekeeping mission. like you said we should stop hyprocricy and start speaking the truth. the truth is that bush is playing the religion card very well, because now that hes in trouble in iraq, hes asking muslim nations like pakistan or syria for military or financial aid. if the us wants to help muslim soo bad so how comes that they blocked and are blocking any resolutions against israel???

Saddam: i think we all agree that saddam was or is not a religious man. the situation in iraq shows that even the shias dont accept any government put in place by the us. thats another fact that the us completely underestimated.

and then you have to stop judging islam by all these hundreds of fatwas. many of the ones calling out fatwas do it more in political interest than because of religious matters. and none of the ones calling out fatwas can act as THE representative of islam, because today there are no khalifas that are accecpted by all the muslims, there are millions of cheicks following different tariqas, so you really dont bring up any good argument for me.

your definition of the muslim world includes only arab nations, but today the majority of muslims are non arab. tolerance of christians and jews was granted since the beginning, but wars like the cruisades or the israel issue made that the tolerance decreased in the middle east. but outside of those areas, christians and jews live in harmony with the muslims. take a look on africa and youll find out.

what america and americans still dont understand is that by treating terrorists as muslims or muslims as terrorists they provoce more tension and hostilities.  [/color]

• Tweet

[Eskimo]

face the truth america is PRO ISRAEL, and some christian union or whatever which gave funding to george bush are 100% solidary to israel. too bad, but the us is just fucked up in lies and hypocrism.

Nobody doubts that and Ameriva is not hiding that either!

ANTI-ISLAM is America...from the mouth of America top ranking Army officer...a General...

and the way against Saddam Hussein and Afghanistan...according to him....is in cause of God...his God not Allah the muslim god...

are you stillm in doubt that America is Anti Islam?

• Tweet

[Eskimo]

face the truth america is PRO ISRAEL, and some christian union or whatever which gave funding to george bush are 100% solidary to israel. too bad, but the us is just fucked up in lies and hypocrism.

Nobody doubts that and Ameriva is not hiding that either!

ANTI-ISLAM is America...from the mouth of America top ranking Army officer...a General...

and the way against Saddam Hussein and Afghanistan...according to him....is in cause of God...his God not Allah the muslim god...

are you still in doubt that America is Anti Islam?

• Tweet

[Jack_Fulcher]

These are interesting posts.  I don't believe that America is anti-Islam or anti-Muslim, no matter what this idiot general said.  He is a member of a very fundamentalist church, a fringe group that does not speak for all Christians.  We all have problems with fundamentalists in our countries, and they all make us look intolerant and judgemental.  If you look at our newspapers, you will see that they are all making fun of this sick crackpot, so please do not judge us by what he says.  I think that the Pentagon will try to sit on him and you won't see him saying much more, at least while he is in uniform.  He can say whatever he wants out of uniform, and this is because we value free speech.

If you watched the actions of the government after the 9/11 attacks, it was clear that they were not trying to blame all Muslims for this.  For instance, the big memorial service at the National Cathedral in Washington included a Christian, a Jew, and a Muslim cleric as speakers.  They all spoke of tolerance, forgiveness, and peace, which is the underlying message of all these religions.

I don't think the average guy in America is anti-Muslim, but I will say that there are many that are just intolerant of different people.  We're very xenophobic, but probably not more than most other countries.  If you really want to see racism, just go to Japan, for instance.  Or China, Russia, or northern Europe.  

We are just very protective of certain things.  For instance, if the Taliban were to take over, if they started to smash TV sets like they did in Kabul, Americans would kill them all.  Not because they are Muslims, but because we live on TV.  

Muslims are a fast growing sector here, and they are a valuable part of our economy and society.  We have had some problems since 9/11 with mosques being vandalized, but for the most part people understand that Muslims here did not support 9/11.  What hurt, however, was the scenes of people in Egypt and Pakistan dancing in the streets when those people were killed.  I'm sure the Palestinians lost a lot of support here when they did the same thing.  And then when some Muslims kept suggesting that this was not the work of al- Queda or bin Laden, but was some sort of Israeli plot, that was amazing.  I hope that these sorts of silly theories, spread by the Muslim version of our general, mentioned above, have been put to rest.

Rambling as usual.  Bye for now.  Jack  

• Tweet

[Eskimo]

You know what I respect freedom of speech and peoples opinion. I always say mine no matter what. But i cannot put on any conclusion cause conclusions are offensive to some people.
I hate just arbitrary conclusions...silly me...who cares what I hate..

Okay but to the issue...Jack I wonder if Palestinians will get any support from America even if they did not jubilate.

Will you say all those endless vetos are as a result of that jubilations.

Even those before sept 11?

An average American may be nice person...life loving...but the policy of the american Govt is the center of the attack...

And an average american is the most misinformed about his country's foreing policy...says one paper ...I cant remember where..but I just believe they were right.

Jack?

• Tweet

[Eskimo]

You know what I respect freedom of speech and peoples opinion. I always say mine no matter what. But i cannot put on any conclusion cause conclusions are offensive to some people.
I hate just arbitrary conclusions...silly me...who cares what I hate..

Okay but to the issue...Jack I wonder if Palestinians will get any support from America even if they did not jubilate.

Will you say all those endless vetos are as a result of that jubilations.

Even those before sept 11?

An average American may be nice person...life loving...but the policy of the american Govt is the center of the attack...

And an average american is the most misinformed about his country's foreing policy...says one paper ...I cant remember where..but I just believe they were right.

Jack?

• Tweet

[Jack_Fulcher]

You're right, Eskimo, that the Palestinians don't get an even break from our government.  Probably the most important reason is that the Palestinians don't control much economic or voting power in the US.  Jews came here in the first half of the last century and built businesses and generally worked hard to become an important part of the society.  Since we're a democracy, they have a large influence over who wins elections and what decisions the government makes.  They don't run the government or own the banks, as some people allege, but they do have an important influence.  By comparison, there are very few Palestinians or anyone else from that part of the world in the country.  The Arabs have a lobby group active in Washington, but they are very small compared with the Jewish lobbies.

The problem, Eskimo, is that "those endless vetoes" will probably continue until the Arabs get their act together and learn how the political systems work here, and do effective things to change it.  The Saudi's have a big lobby, but they don't seem to want to help the Palestinians much.  With all the money that goes into that part of the world due to the oil wealth, I would have thought that the Arabs would have figured it out by now.  One problem has been that there is much fighting and discrimination among the Arabs and others in the Middle East.  Certainly the Iranians think the Arabs are unworthy and sub-human, and there is the class warfare between the Shiite and Sunni groups.  If they can somehow overcome these problems, stop their squabbling, and get to work, they can become a political and economic force that can effect change.

There are many in the US who think that we favor Israel too much (not just the Ku Klux Klan), and this is a group that the Arabs and others from the Middle East can cultivate and try to get to help them in this effort.  Dancing in the streets won't get the job done.  

Jack

• Tweet