Author Topic: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery  (Read 34428 times)

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Offline al_hamza

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2003, 01:32:20 PM »
                       "When the peoples of Nigeria agree to respect all their different neighbours and agree to allow any person in any part of Nigeria to practice their own religion (or none) without interference a great step forward will have been taken. A nation can then be built"

PERFECT! DAVE! THATS LIKE A SCOTSMAN! ALRIGHT! AT-LAST YOUR TALKING SENSE! YOU SEE SINCE THE INTRODUCTION OF SHARIAH, MOST EURO STATES AND SOME AMERICAN STATES TOGETHER WITH OUR SOUTHERNERS HAVE BEEN GIVING US HELL OF CRITICISM, HOW CAN WE MOVE FOWARD TOGETHER THEN? OUR CHRISTIAN BROTHERS IN NIGERIA ARENT AS WISE AS YOU!

AND, Abu-mujahid, the wise are not wrong when they say the "tounge is more dangerous than the sword", too bad my tounge cant twist that much but my fists can, i had almost the same thing in mind but couldnt write it down, Bravo brother!,
"man, i love the guy's abilities!"

anywayz
garra run
ABILUNAH? SABILUNAH? AL-JIHAD! AL-JIHAD!

Offline nura

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2003, 06:42:52 PM »
Salam Everybody

The return of Ummulhuda to this forum signals great expectations and I invite all those that are like me with the thirst to know more to watch out for her contributions. Aunty Ummul (as she is popularly known in this forum) makes some of the most sensible and matured contributions. Jack and Mr. Hill watch out for this Amazon.

Welcome Ummulhuda!!!

I can't help but to commend Mr. Hill for his advice to the Nigerians in this forum that is to use this opportunity and technology that was genorously provided by Jack's people to better use than promoting disharmony among Nigerians. I think Mr. Hill is very right and he is a true Nigerian and a real KANOMAN!

It is very true that the implementation of the Shari'ah legal code in Northern Nigeria has been marred with so much politics and irresponsibility. In fact 90% of the Govt.'s that lunched the Shari'ah implementation did so to please their agitating public. Who are craving for it as they believe it is the only justice they can get considering that there is no ther dividend of democracy that is available.

I am among the school of thought that believe Shari'ah is only to be applied when there is prosperity. In fact I expressed my  outrage when the first amputation was made in Zamfara State considering that the thief stole a cow. Most of the Governors are busy lining their pockets with different currencies while their populace are living in abject poverty. And they are the proponents of Shari'ah. When Umar bn Khattab (RA) was Khalifah he couldn't buy fuel for his lamp and when he received a letter which he was not sure whether it was personal or official his wife suggested the use of the state lamp to read the letter he refused as he does not want to be questioned by Allah on the day of judgement. When he was khalifa Umar (RA) eats only when all of Madinah has eaten. This may not be possible now but at least provide means of livelihood which will see to everyone getting food without begging.

Honest the Amina Lawal case is very unfortunate and of course the young lady is not enlightened so one of the first thing they would have done before Shari'a is supposed to be enlightenment. And check out the north now how many schools are there? I bet you would not find a good school whether western or Islamic in Amina Lawal's village.

I dont think it makes sense to stone Amina Lawal viz a viz all the problems abound that could orchestrate her commiting the said act. Problems that are supposed to be solved by the same government that is prosecuting her.

Our major task now as muslims and Nigerians is to try and create an environment that will not allow illitracy, indiscipline and indolence to flourish for these are the three evil I's that are militating against the progress of the north and Nigeria in General.

Having said that i need to clarify that contrary to alot of beliefs Shari'a is not evil or bad. For us itis the best thing that ever happened in our time. Despite their short comings the Northern Governors have succeeded in bringing years of aspiration to reality. For so long the muslims in Nigeria have craved for the broadening of the applications of the Shari'ah legal code. And we thank them even if for nothing but for just doing that. Our future generation which most of the contributors in this forum are part of will be able by the grace of the Almighty Allah to correct the short comings of the politicians that helped to establish the shari'ah (eventhough just to achieve their TAZARCE dreams).

I wish to also clarify to Jack that it does not necessarily means if a nation is culturally different then it will be isolated in the commity of nations, I dont see Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Burunei being Isolated and foriegn investments are booming in all these countries and in most of them there is a full application of Shari'ah. I think these days is what you have that attracts investment.

Before I sign out I need to make a clarion call like Dave for topics that will be able to shape us as future leaders that is topics that will focus on the collective rather than the individual. It is very true as stated by Mr. Hill that we are not communal and there is no where lack of community effort is evident than in the North of Nigeria.
agari Nakowa Mugu Sai Maishi

Offline Waziri

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2003, 07:17:59 PM »
Mr Fulcher,

I think we have come so far into this and independent observers I believe are ready to judge by reasoned logic.

Mr. Fulcher seems to be too much obsessed with the present arrangement that he never could see the possibility that we too can rise high and reclaim back our glories. Similar thinkers of the West also had this sentiment in the past 50 yrs. They believed that if anything is coming up again from Asia it would be in the name of Communism. They were even bold enough to rephrase our call for prayer saying: There is no God but Economic Determinism and Max is the Prophet of God.

But instead some of them lived to see how Communism crumbled to dust in the last decade of the century only for the genuine call for prayer to be sounded high again in the minarets: There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is His Prophet. Everywhere today in the Muslim world there is a call to practice the religion in its pristine purity. We are coming up again. We are spread everywhere even in  the Western countries.  

I will only say here to you what Mahatma Gandhi ones told his American friend as recorded by Upton Close in his book, The Revolt of Asia:

 "Such of you as survive will come back to Asia for another way of life .... If I should now allow the West in its boyishly confident rowdyism utterly to crush out an opposing system of life and ideals through political power and material influence, would I not be a traitor not only to my own people but to you very Westerners as well? "

Yes, but mine will be a bit modified:

Such of you as survive will come back to ISLAM for another way of life.... If I should now allow the Secular West in its uncompromising complacence utterly to crush out an opposing system of life and ideals through political power and material influence, would I not be a traitor not only to my own people but to you very Secularists as well?

I promised earlier to produce a thought about your secular ideologies and why I feel they will fail humanity. I intend to do that in comparison with Islamic ideologies. I started typing something but saw that may be I should rather develop it into an essay worth publishing anywhere not only a post in an internet forum. I will now wait till I can confirm further some of the facts I have now at my disposal. But nevertheless when I finish writing the essay I will reach across to you all.

I will also wish to welcome AbuMujahid and ummulhuda back in to the family. I hope they will not desert us again when we start becoming childish. I'd rather they understand that their duty is our right. We are mostly kids here who need guidance and if they do not live up to their duty by talking to us constantly in spite of our ample and visible shortcomings then they should know that others will come and talk to us. They will only go on leave one day only to come back to kanoonline to hear us saying we don't know them and that they are not our brothers and sisters again. It is unfortunate. I hate to even start thinking about it.

Offline Waziri

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2003, 07:26:31 PM »
No, Huda, look at it this way: "with the eyes" of the law. Allah says caning in the Qur'an for "Zaniy" which can both be an adulterer or a fornicator. And the Prophet says stoning for "Sayyibuz Zaniy" which means specifically an adulterer. Then we say if the Prophet really "prescribed" stoning for adultery then the verse in the Qur’an, which "prescribed" caning for "Zina", can only mean fornication. This is the logic. Huda, this is the standard when it comes to making laws in Islam. It has nothing to do with "Sittatu ayyamin", your analogy does not seem to concur in anyway.

 Sometime last week I saw something written about this Dr. Ahmed Saleem's book again on Gamji website, at a time I was thinking of replying the person but declined after giving it a second thought. Actually if really the arguments advanced by our GUEST here or the person who wrote the last week's article are the same as those of Dr. Ahmad then I will say the Dr doesn't have a case. I am sorry to say please, but the Dr's work portrays maximum ignorance of the ways of jurisprudence in Islam. The work did not follow the convention as accepted in the science of jurisprudence especially when you add the "probablys" and the "could it bes", then you will have a worst case.

'The Evolving Nature of the Qur'an and its Implications for Interpreting Ahadith' is the title of the original article as our GUEST submitted. We will try and get it that we may be able to do justice to the Dr.

Concerning Amina Lawal, Huda I think I explained the circumstances that brought about her confession earlier. I think I have been following her case from the on set.

 You know certainly one cannot have the same circumstance as that of the holy Prophet. Even the cases of adultery as dealt with by Umar (RTA) and other subsequent Khulafa' did not fall in exactly the kind, type, color, time, nature etc of circumstances as those of the Prophet. This is the reason why a judge is supposed to be not only learned but also wise. His position of ensuring justice is a one that none shall occupy but a trustworthy individual.

 It is also the reason why in Islam the convention is when a case is in a court of law, nobody is allowed to comment. This is also the reason why the Prophet says: "Any judge, working sincerely but yet because of human error, passed a judgment and made a mistake his will be just a reward in the hereafter. And he who passed and got it right has but two rewards."

This needless to say our Shari'a judges as at present need more training giving the place of justice in Islam.

About your thought earlier concerning those rulings on adultery, I think it will be better here if we understand them in the light of the goals of Islamic Laws.

You see,  Islam seeks to provide a society which understands Sexual Intercourse in general to be something very noble and sacred that should not be carried out but in a legitimate manner. Let it be that progeny or lineage is so important. That sexual purity among other things means nobility.

As a result Islam sets rules. If four witnesses catch anybody with all the criteria fulfilled, then the authorities must act and do the stoning or caning. Let every body see how noble sexual purity is, even if the punishment does not serve as a deterrent.  And if anybody should confess, that means the person is a witness against his/her self and we will be compelled to believe the person since our philosophy of life always instructs us to "TRUST PPL AND TAKE THEM BY THEIR OWN WORDS WHEN THEY SPEAK, UNTIL THEY PROVE TO US THAT THEY ARE NOT TRUSTWORHTY, THEN THEY WILL NEVER BE ACCEPTED AS WITNESSES ON ANY THING AGAIN" So the punishment will equally be meted on that person. If before or during the punishment the person withdraws the confessions then we say again "TRUST PPL AND TAKE THEM BY THEIR OWN WORDS WHEN THEY SPEAK, UNTIL THEY PROVE TO YOU THAT THEY ARE NOT TRUSTWORHTY, THEN THEY WILL NEVER BE ACCEPTED AS WITNESSES ON ANY THING AGAIN".

And if some group of people or individual should come up with accusations that some man or woman is committing adultery or fornication, and is unable to establish the claims with four witnesses who can testify to seeing everything as it happens. Then the group or individual will be caned publicly with 80 stripes. This is for the individual members of the society to understand that to accuse ppl of committing one of the most grievous offences to the tribe of man without sufficient evidence is another heinous crime on its own.

 By so doing generations and generations to come will continue to see illicit sexual intercourse to mean a very heinous crime that should be avoided. As we continued the hope is we will wake up one day without a single deviant in this regard. For whay one sees everyday is what one does.

 This is the truth of life, of human nature. Illicit sexual affairs are not good things. They do not rhyme with human conscience at all. In fact they are a sure way to another series of unfaithful dispositions like telling lies and betrayal of trust. As I once explained, is spite of the moral degeneration the Western World is today undergoing they don't elect as leaders, particularly political leaders who are known to be of soiled sexual purity.  This is the implication on material terms of rulings concerning adultery and fornications in Islam. Their roles are largely in building up a fair and just social structure.

And concerning God's grace you said:

"There is a hadeeth of the Prophet Salaam in which a man confessed to adultery and he was stoned to death. As he was dying or after his death, some people began to cast aspersions on his name and the Prophet Salaam told them that the man was in Paradise because of his penance. In otherwords his was the supreme act of penitence, which is rewarded with Al Jannah.
  
Therefore it goes without saying that those who commit zina and are stoned can expect forgiveness and the Grace of Allah."

We can vividly see here that the person was forgiven only because of his state of mind before his death, his penitence. Had he died arrogant and uncompromising then he wouldn't have been forgiven in anyway.

In any case, those who commit adultery and do not confess to anybody, the hope is he or she would live and seek for Allah's forgiveness. We can here justly conclude that the punishments are only there because they are essential for the production of a just and fair social structure. Not because they serve as automatic tickets for the forgiveness of the culprit in the sight of Allah.

Offline lionger

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2003, 04:36:51 AM »
http://odili.net/news/source/2003/sep/25/83.html

story don end..

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2003, 11:33:09 AM »
Yes, Lionger the story ended with the triumph of the Shariah and its ways

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2003, 11:37:57 AM »
Maybe we should read it this way:

http://www.mtrustonline.com/dailytrust/amina25092003.htm

Offline lionger

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2003, 03:02:50 PM »
Iawaziri I didn't really get ur response until I re-read the link I posted. I think I should apologise for posting it. My purpose was simply to inform u guys that Amina's sharia sentence had been overturned for so-and so reasons; not the 'sharia is cruel and harsh' quips which must have offended you. Once again my apologies.

Offline Jack_Fulcher

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2003, 01:03:38 AM »
Hi to all!

I am sorry I have neglected this forum recently – my work has simply overwhelmed me.  I wish I were smarter, or didn’t need to sleep so much.

I am so happy for Amina, as I am sure we all are.  But what a waste of time and resources, just to come to this ending!  She lost two years of her life, and who knows how many hours of work of so many people, on all sides, have gone into this farce.  They could have been doing something constructive all this time.  Maybe they could have helped me at work.  I know that you expect me to say, “what a great system you have, and look how Shariah worked after all,” but I must disappoint you.  Amina got off on a series of technicalities.  Only one judge was present when she was first convicted, she may have had the baby in gestation for up to five years, and the requisite number of witnesses were not provided by the arresting officer (the judge said that he should have been flogged for the arrest – anyone expect this to happen?)  What the judge should have said that this extreme interpretation of the Shariah is absurd, but it appears that many others will have to go through the same process before this interpretation is finally excised from the laws.

Nevertheless, what great posts!  I am enjoying this discussion, and am learning a lot about Islam and about your culture.  I especially like the writings of Ummulhuda, Waziri, and AbuMujahid, and miss the contributions of Eskimo and Lionger, not to mention our dear Ummita.  I do have several comments regarding the last couple of pages of posts.

Much of what I have seen here deals with definitions of words and terms found in the Quran and various hadiths, such as adultery, fornication, and zina.  This reminds me of discussions that practitioners of our own religion industries have among each other.  What was the word in the original Hebrew or Aramaic, under what circumstances was the phrase uttered, how sure can we be that the meaning is as we understand it today?  Certainly all of these books, the Quran, Bible, Torah, Talmud, the Hadiths, all those extra books the Catholics have, all are writings from centuries ago that have gone through several hands.  AbuMujahid asks Eskimo how he can know that the Quran he is using is “authentic,” that the Quran has been through many, many hands.  My understanding of the Hadiths is that they have gone through many, many more hands than the Quran, and yet Mr. Waziri argues that the Christian Bible is suspect because it too has gone through many hands, many versions, and many translations.  I agree with all of this, and so I find it a foolish project to try to determine the exact meaning of specific words for the purposes of enforcing one or another interpretation of Shariah.  Why are you so eager to take someone’s life based on so fragile a foundation of understanding?  

AbuMujahid tells Eskimo that Islam permits independent judgment and thinking, but “one needs a lot of knowledge to do that.”  To whom should we turn for this knowledge, AbuMujahid?  You?  Mr. Waziri?  Ummita?  Me?  You very well know that experts disagree, and these very boards, or the ones at Gamji.com, show how much disagreement there is even among the most learned of the Muslims.  Even the court that freed Amina was not unanimous – one of the judges dissented from the verdict.  Is Eskimo allowed to use his brain for independent judgment only when he agrees with you, AbuMujahid?  You sound like one of those who makes his living on the Quran, who lashes out whenever his particular statements are questioned.  Are you part of the religion industry?

In another thread, one started by Mr. Waziri regarding the book of Leviticus in the Christian Bible, Mr. Waziri argues that stoning for adultery has always been the Hebrew law, and that Jesus told the crowd “he who is without sin cast the first stone” in the book of John because he was being clever in his choice of words, that he was under pressure to appear not to appear to be in violation of Roman law, but that Jesus really did not mean what he said and that this should not be seen as a change in the Hebrew law.  Well, I hope you will admit, Mr. Waziri, that you are just guessing about this.  Since he never said that it was OK to kill for committing adultery, or at least if he said so it was never written down, all we have is the words he actually spoke, which implies that he did not agree with this old law.  If we can guess about such things, why do you not agree that perhaps the Prophet agreed to the stoning because he was afraid to go against the Mosaic laws, and did so just to please the power structure of the time?

I have been thinking about stoning, and wonder why that particular method was used so much back then.  Perhaps there is someone on this board who can enlighten me.  I have a theory, however.  I think that these sorts of things are driven by the technology and economics of the day.  In the time of Moses, he was in the desert without a lot of trees around.  Stones were plentiful and easy to collect.  Also there is a sort of anonymity in picking up a stone along with a bunch of other kids and hurling it at someone’s head.  Once she is dead, how do you know who killed her?  You can each lie to yourselves and say it was not your rocks that killed her, but it was the rocks thrown by those other kids.  When we have used a firing squad, a common practice was to load one soldier’s gun with a blank, so that each on the squad could tell himself that he might have had the blank and was not responsible for the death.

In our Old West we had plenty of trees, so hangings were common.  When steel became common in Europe, they developed the headman’s axe, and then the Guillotine.  When we developed electricity we used that for a while, and we also used poisoned gas.  Now we are starting to use drugs which we inject to stop the prisoner’s heart and breathing.  Even though stoning was common in our own Bible, we have allowed technology to make the process of taking someone’s life more humane.  

I am certainly no expert in this area, and I am not very religious.  I was brought up as a Methodist, but I do not practice any form of religion and last read the Bible many, many years ago.  I guess I am an economist more than anything else, and that is its own religion.  However, all of these arguments having to do with definitions, or what someone really meant centuries ago, misses the point, in my opinion.  Did the Prophet say that people should stone adulterers forever, or that the particular method of stoning should always be used to take lives?  Everything you or I do today must be justified, and to base actions solely on the subjective interpretation of documents that are hundreds of years old is a mistake.  You say that you want this harsh punishment, along with other similar punishments imposed by a strict interpretation of Shariah, to help your society, to give it structure and discipline.  Mr. Waziri says that this harsh punishment for adultery is because Muslims are concerned about the purity of the gene pool, or of lineage, but this cannot be the reason, as the Shariah does not mandate that the issue of this sinful act, the baby, be killed along with the mother.  If you were really concerned about the purity of lineage, the child would be destroyed too.  If you were concerned about the overall gene pool, you would not allow your children to live on the streets, as they do all over Northern Nigeria, Somalia, the Sudan, and other Muslim areas of Africa.  It appears that you try to convince yourselves that your laws are designed to solve practical problems for your society, which they should, but they are in fact tools used by your leaders to keep the people in line and to hang on to their power.

This business about technology is an interesting one.  Why was DNA testing not used to determine who the father really was?  This is straightforward today.  Modern criminology stresses circumstantial evidence, fingerprints, blood and semen samples, footprints, that sort of thing, yet Shariah seems to depend only on eye witnesses, which modern forensic science says are very unreliable.  Shariah also seems to encourage lying to the police, which implies that criminals will get away with just about everything.  How are crimes solved if eyewitnesses are required?  Do families take the law in their own hands, like our mafia?  I am asking this because I really do not know.  This system seems unworkable, and the Lawal case proves this.  She was condemned to death, while all the man had to say was “I did not do it, officer” and he was released.  The absurdity of this result should show that something is broken.  And no one has answered my previous question regarding rape – does a woman have no recourse if she is raped?  If she needs four witnesses, how is the rapist ever brought to justice?  Is this once again a family matter, not a job for the police?  If so, how is this justice?

One more point on technology.  By the end of this century we will have developed prosthesis technology to the point that hands, arms, and legs are replaced easily and with little effect on mobility.  That is, the new hands should work nearly as well as the original.  How will Shariah handle this development?  Certainly chopping off someone’s hand will not be the deterrent to theft you imagine it to be today.  Once contraception becomes so commonplace and foolproof, people will be able to commit adultery without soiling the gene pool.  Will that make it OK then?  

Bits and Pieces – I agree with Dave that the Nigerians, and all people, should avoid tribalism and tolerate each other.  I have heard alarming things about how each religion is treated by the other in Nigeria, and I hope that this will cease.  I do not think that he was supporting Al-Hamza’s call for isolation (“just leave us alone!”), but will let him speak for himself.  And Mr. Waziri, you suggest that Saudi Arabia is not isolated, but believe me, it is.  The only reason Americans or Europeans go there is because of the vast oil wealth found there, and we go for business only.  There is no reason to visit, and they quite frankly do not want us there.  Few Americans outside of the oil industry know much about SA.  And, is iawaziri the same as Mr. Waziri?  Just curious.

This epistle is much too long, but I am trying to make up for my prolonged absence.  I hope you all forgive me.

Peace to you all my friends.  Jack

Offline Bashir

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2003, 09:34:57 PM »
jack fulcher, ur comments on d technology of executions were brilliant.

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2003, 08:13:39 PM »
Mr Fulcher,

You are indeed very funny. So Saudi Arabia is in isolation because what brings Europeans and Americans to the Saudis is only work. After all isolation is only when America and Europe who constitute only a fraction of the world population do not like one. It is a good one.
 
Mr Fulcher, I really dunno. But I think the purpose of us gathering here to discuss is nothing more than to learn from one another. And it is the sole reason why you see us agreeing after long and hot debates. Typical example is in the later submissions of Eskimo. You can easily see that we are all brothers here seeking to understand. We underplay the use of emotions and sentiments substituting them with reason, facts, logic and figures.

But you see, I really wonder why you make some remarks. I do ask myself as to whether they are informed by ignorance or ill motives. I am sorry to have said that but what is the import of saying:

  . " But what a waste of time and resources, just to come to this ending!  She lost two years of her life, and who knows how many hours of work of so many people, on all sides, have gone into this farce.  They could have been doing something constructive all this time.  Maybe they could have helped me at work.  I know that you expect me to say, "what a great system you have, and look how Shariah worked after all"; but I must disappoint you.  Amina got off on a series of technicalities.  Only one judge was present when she was first convicted, she may have had the baby in gestation for up to five years, and the requisite number of witnesses were not provided by the arresting officer (the judge said that he should have been flogged for the arrest – anyone expect this to happen?)  What the judge should have said that this extreme interpretation of the Shariah is absurd, but it appears that many others will have to go through the same process before this interpretation is finally excised from the laws".

Actually Mr Fulcher our system around here do not expect to continue to survive on compliments even if the compliments are from our very selves the operators of the system.  Whether you choose to say it is great or not it wouldn't matter at all. It is like a case of a person who thinks by telling it to ppls face that they are ugly he is making them to cover it.

Okay Mr Fulcher, establishing justice doesn't require the attention of everything, time, talent and resources as well?

 After all why do we live if seeking to establish justice is not worth our efforts or even the whole of our investments?

Or do you mean in USA u ppl did not spend everything on Lewinscky issue only for it to have appeared to be a waste. Is what we have done not a natural way of establishing justice? For God's sake, why these kind of comments?

You spoke also of my comments about genealogy and sexual purity. You said it was gene pool I meant while it was only family tree we spoke about. Mr. Fulcher is it because you cannot differentiate between genealogy and gene pool or is it deliberate misinterpretation to confuse other readers?

Mr. Fulcher, gene pool? No. By God we do not believe in eugenics, we are not racists, may be Ku Klux Klan can explain that better or members of eugenics societies in USA which ur governments knowingly allow to exist.

When you speak about our interpretations of old documents. Don't you see that we do interpret using reason and logic as our tools? I am an Islamist with older religious documents how about you Mr. Fulcher? An economist with newer religious documents?

Why can't you adjust to the fact that we can be different?

 Why must you believe that we must abandon a line of reason and adopt a one by the West inspite of its obvious weaknesses?

Why must you insist in sameness?

Okay in your own home, do you insist that you and your wife must agree on everything?

Is it your agreement on everything between you and your wife that keeps your relationship or tolerance?

 Don't you think that sameness is not nature?

Don't you think others with other different opinions should be allowed to exist and can be logical too?

Yes we said Jesus did not stone the adulteress because he had to avoid the worst. And you said Mohammed did stone adulterers because he wanted to pls the power structure of his time.

 We quoted copiously from the bible to prove what we've said. You just said it without attempting in any way to even try to prove it.

You said it was the technology of the time that made Moses stone adulterers so as Muhammad, but you failed to ask yourself as to why was it that only adulterers were said to be stoned not all other criminals. Why did the technology of the time did not influence them to stone murderers or prisoners of war?

Yes, DNA test would have been a good thing to use but we here, we say human beings are so important that we only take them by their own words and interrogation is not in our philosophy in any way.

 See the kind of tragedy interrogation caused recently.
Dr. Kelly, An adviser to the present British prime minister committed suicide recently only for fear of interrogation. They abolished death penalty thinking that they can cheat nature and maintained a system that can make people commit suicide on fear of being interrogated.

 can you see why in Islam the concept of too much interrogation is not condoned?

 Okay what Shari’a encourages lying?

Are you sure Amina Lawal lied?

Are you sure that the person who denied her pointing him lied?

Had we said we would do any DNA test before we passed our judgement, Amina and the other culprit may have committed suicide long ago before the judgement, may be long before Dr. Kelly died.

You see how our system gives life and hope more than any other system?

 And again a technology is in the pipeline that will provide artificial hands, which will make for amputated natural hands. That one is excellent.

 We will wait here on this forum till the end of the century when the artificial hands came then we will debate it over because no laws are made under assumptions. Unless if we are willing to destroy the pipeline and bring the artificial hands now, then we can start discussing that now.

Mr. Fulcher, why not tell me about this  your economist religion?

I  am here discussing my Islamist religion with you.

I am also familiar with Christian Religion whose books I say did not survive the  science of Textual Critism, which  also I say my Islamist book survived.

May be we  can also evaluate this  your economist religion on that scale and see whether we can have some thing to compliment since my science of Textual Critism is  the ultimate I believe.

But sincerely speaking, Mr Fulcher, this your post I believe is porous.

Offline Jack_Fulcher

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2003, 12:01:58 AM »
Yes, Mr. Waziri, I think that we are both very funny guys, because we seem to be able to write for pages without running out of steam.  

We do not seem to agree on much, but at least we are having a civilized conversation.  If only the majority of the world could learn to communicate like this.  The internet is a hopeful development that might encourage such discussions.

I wonder why you would want to suggest that my intentions on this board are less than honest, if that is what you are saying.  Can you take criticisms of your religion without making such insinuation?  You tend to ignore certain direct questions, so I ask you again whether you are making or plan to make your living in religion.  There is nothing shameful in this, but it might flavor your reaction to criticism.  Certainly you would want to tell your potential parishoners to ignore what I am saying, because I am being deceitful.  All religions do this.  The Christians warn about the coming of the Antichrist, and Islam talks about you will all lose your faith due to the intervention of the infidel.  I do not know just what the Jews say about this, but I am sure it is something similar.

No, I am sincere in my comments, and I have no hidden agenda.  I just got interested when the conviction of Amina was reported in the press.

I have no strong religion except, as you point out, the religion of economics.  Luckily, the books regarding what we think as economics were written only in the last two hundred years, so we do not have a problem of interpretation like they do in Christianity or Islam.  If you want to understand economics, read Samuelson's basic textbook.  It is all in there.  The basic philosophy is that if markets are competitive, we do not have to have centralized decision making regarding what is to be produced, and what the prices should be.  This is an advancement from feudalism, where the nobility and church made all the decisions.  If markets are not competitive, we have problems but know generally what to do about it.  Being able to describe such a system mathematically is what economists do, generally, and I do believe in the rigor of the mathematical results.  This is my religion, I guess.  That and the inescapable results of reason and logic.

I am amazed that you think that I want us all to be the same.  I think that differences are important and desirable, but that there are some differences that should be prohibited.  Hitler's treatment of the Jews is always a good example, but there are others.  We have some who do not believe in medical science, and refuse to take their children to the doctor.  Some are in jail because their children died from this neglect.  If these differences are damaging to the society, we try to prohibit them.  I am sure you feel the same way.  Good grief, man, I live in San Francisco!  This is a diverse and tolerant part of the world, certainly more diverse than Nigeria.  People from every part of the world live here, and they are welcome.  We even tolerate homosexuals, which I understand you even go so far as to outlaw.  Please do not tell me about wanting the whole world to be the same!

Once again you ignore my question about the baby.  Whether it is the genealogy of the family or the gene pool for the society, the effect is the same.  Why do you spare the baby yet kill its mother?  If the baby is tainted, it seems that you need to kill it too to be consistent.

I also am not saying that the Quran requires you to lie, but that your interpretation and application of its requirements do so.  I am sure that the Prophet would not want to encourage people to lie, but if someone can evade prosecution by simply saying "I did not do it," that encourages a system of dishonisty.  I agree that it would be wonderful if we could take everyone at their word, but we cannot.  This is the real world, not your fantasy.  This results in the absurd result that Amina might be convicted while the man goes free.  This is not a difficult concept, in my view.

I need to get back to work.  I will try to return soon.  Have a nice week, my friends.  Jack

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2003, 01:30:55 AM »
======================
Quote
Once again you ignore my question about the baby.  Whether it is the genealogy of the family or the gene pool for the society, the effect is the same.  Why do you spare the baby yet kill its mother?  If the baby is tainted, it seems that you need to kill it too to be consistent.
======================
allow me, this one's easy, its obvious:
        because the baby did not commit any crime, the mother (allegedly) did.

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2003, 01:49:39 AM »
Forgive me for jumping in and being OOT(out of topic), I'm just curious.
Someone mentioned about technological advances in means of execution. I wonder if a firing squad can be used in place of "stoners" in this modern day. A bullet is not unlike a small stone (in fact, you can use stones as bullet). I dont know if there are any limitation in the _minimum_ size, the speed & means it should be thrown. etc.  I want to know opinions from  learned persons in islamic law.

Offline gogannaka

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2003, 01:55:07 AM »
What a very good answer..................
while goin thru the posts on this subject i came across a thread by Mr.Fulcher...in his post he seems to think that if a woman is raped,she needs to produce 4 witnesses...That is not the case mr. Fulcher.....Rape and adultery or fornication are two totally different cases....pls take note



I'm really gaining a lot of knowledge from the posts....
Surely after suffering comes enjoyment

 


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