Author Topic: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery  (Read 35129 times)

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Offline Waziri

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Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« on: September 09, 2003, 07:55:31 PM »
Tahiyyatiy Al Islam,

KanoOnliners , I see reason to shift this discourse to another page entirely for two things. One, being that we have reached some "agreement" on the main issues that dealt with the abolishment of death penalty in general. Two, under this new topic we will achieve more focus on the item of discourse hence new contributors will not pass through the pains of scanning too many pages before they could feel satisfied enough to make contributions. I am heartily sorry, if I inconvenience anybody by this act.

I have read the comments by our GUEST and subsequently that of Eskimo. But I want to draw the attention of Eskimo to one sentence in the Guest's submission, she said: "As an Islamic Injunction I cannot say with certainty that I am against stoning in general."

It will also be fair of us to observe that in her submission, though quoting wholesale from Dr. Ahmed there is "Probably" and "could it be" and these to every good student of logic amount to absolute uncertainty even on the part of the writer.

 So Eskimo stop scrolling, Dr. Ahmad's submission is no better than yours in anyway.

Joke aside, I will also advice that Eskimo should not be looking for what he wants in the Qur'an. Let us all look for what Allah wants. Allah qualifies Qur’an as a "guide to mankind and a mercy from him".

Not a manual of course but a map which shows you the location of USA and never cares on how you reach it but goes ahead to say "verily in the messenger of Allah you have most excellent pattern of conduct".Our task therefore is to use Qur'an or interpret it as the prophet did. It also made it clear that our intentions are even more significant than our works hence even if we differ we will still be right in as long as we keep our intentions pure.

 In spite of the obvious weaknesses of Dr. Ahmed's position I intend here to go a little further to explain the issue in my own little way that we may hopefully achieve some consolation in practicing the will of Allah and His blessed Apostle. I did not read the article by the learned Dr., I also hope that our GUEST will try and get us the write-up that we may try to understand him, bring him to kanoonline for "cross-examination" or simply email him only.

The word "Zina" in Arabic or in Hausa, which is also used in the verses talking about fornication in the Qur'an, does not differentiate between adultery and fornication in its etymology. When we say someone is doing zina we always need to elaborate and specify by using a qualifier for it to be adultery or fornication. This has always been our dilemma whenever we are making translations of the Qur'anic verses. And this aspect is what has been revised in the translation of Abdullahi Yusuf Ali. The "zina" referred to in that verse means only FORNICATION not ADULTERY. Yusuf Ali surely made the mistake of translating it to mean adultery.

This understanding is informed by the specification given by the Prophet on another Hadith, which outlined the three offences on which when committed, capital punishment is passed. When he mentioned "Zaniy" which means the subject who commits "Zina" he qualified it with "Sayyibu" which meant "a married man". This automatically shows that "Zina" as said in Suratul Nur is restricted to fornication.

In most recent translations of Qur'an like that of Dr. Muhammad Taqiuddeen Al-Hilaliy who is formerly a professor of Islamic Faith and Teachings, Islamic University of Madinah and Dr. Muhsin Khan whose translation of Sahih-Al-Bukhari is the most widely used. One will find the verse about Zina is translated thus:

"The fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment" Qur'an 20:2.

I will also emphatically reiterate here that in the records of history, the prophet was never found to have recalled the punishments he passed concerning adultery. His companions never did and none of our school of thoughts in the Shi'a world as well as the Sunna world ever interpreted the verses regarding fornication as Dr. Ahmad did. This interpretation came only at the late 19th century when some of our scholars started studying the concepts of human right in the West. In my next post I will try to understand them and their methods. I will also try to show Jack Fulcher that Human Right and Liberty is not an ideology worth pursuing. I will prove the truth that it  only leads to anarchy.

This is it the way it is about adultery. I think I don't here have to pass through the stress of explaining the philosophy behind it since I have done that in an earlier post. The question bugging our mind today is whether it is yet time for us to apply it or not. Are we to wait until when our economy improve to the extent that when one commits fornication everybody will wonder why, because of abundance of resources for ppl to marry or should we continue to apply them in the face of maximum poverty which makes it difficult for young ppl like us, male or female, to marry?

Finally, Jack Fulcher is interested in the problem of Nigeria but wrongly believes that they are our laws. I will here want him to go through this paper I recently presented in one of our local colleges. May be he too can help in his own ways:
http://www.gamji.com/NEWS2686.htm

I remain most grateful.

Anonymous

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2003, 12:08:52 AM »
May I commend Waziri for his paper, which I have just read.
The centre point in all the world's major religions is charity, as he points out so well. "Do unto others as you would have them do to you"
I find it very sad that the followers of the Torah, the Bible and the Quoran- which represent a continuous line of divine revelation - should find it so hard to get on with each other when there is much more in their beliefs to unite them than to separate them. Godlessness should be the common enemy.

Offline ummita

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2003, 01:56:03 PM »
Quote
I find it very sad that the followers of the Torah, the Bible and the Quoran- which represent a continuous line of divine revelation - should find it so hard to get on with each other when there is much more in their beliefs to unite them than to separate them. Godlessness should be the common enemy.
There isnt any differences with what is in the Qur'an & d original
texed versions of d bible & Torah  anyway! D only reason why they dont get along is because there r so many discrepancies from d main actual one which causes so many critisms & anthems!

For those that have more knowledge in d field of Islamic law.....there's even no point & no reason 2 bring religion into it. I THINK we ought 2 have as great a regard 4 religion as we can, so as 2 keep it out as of many things as possible........

Though some do, and an issue that has dwelled & is still dwelling on... is d case of Amina Lawal. (My people, ni dama my main concern is Amina wo!!!) ::)This has been a serious case. I will focus more on her case relating it 2 d above issue.
 
I personally havent seen or read any hard facts rendering Amina guilty in such a case.
2 b even precise.......Amina has suffered from public disgrace, she has suffered  more..."This is a life and death matter and has already gone on too long". She has suffered with all the i, media & stuff..... & not 2 mention keepin her in suspense and in doubt whether 2 live 4 2moro ......or not!!!! Isnt she traumatised, stressed & depressed by now? Isnt that enough toruture?

I have tried 2 find out the exact answer to just ONE QUESTION since the case of Amina aroused, yet I couldnt find none....not even those that are close to Amina herself cud ansa it!.WHO CAUGHT THEM IN THE ACT? Even if she has been caught how many of them have caught her?
I wont say I know EVERYTHING bout Islamic law....but am  still learnin from scholars  though I know 4 a fact that Islamic justifications 2 ruling out death sentences 2 ppl who commit adultery- there have 2 b aleast four witness or so... :-/ (please correct me on d digit if am wrong) So who & who saw her?

Ok! just one witness! Hello!!! u c even that testimony was based on an unreliable witness, on d other hand, Amina has been judged by a single magistrate, instead of three as the law requires. Is that fair does?

D chap  denied the allegations, claimed he was innocent, swore on d qur'an, (kapish) d charges were dropped!!! :o Oh Common people!!! d daugther is always in her arms, an evidence- a baby born outside of marriage whom no one would admit 2 fathering? !!!!!

I dont know how far true this is....but from so many sources, they have stated that "Amina Lawal, divorc?e, was already pregnant when sharia law went into effect in the State of Katsina and that the ?adultery? was therefore anterior".

Infact Amina Musa's lawyer (Aliyu Musa Yawuri) stated that the child (Wasila) who is now considered an illegitimate child belonging 2 Amina has been conceived before sharia law went into effect in the State of Katsina, and that the pregnancy was the result of a ?dormant embryo? (a phenomenon recognized by Islamic law) fertilized while Amina was still married. So this could possible render Amina not guilty for commititing adultery.

I believe that Amina Lawal is not d only person who (they say) has committed adultery. Even if they so clamied that she has....I believe she has also been b victimised in such a circumstance without the real hard facts. And again,d way I c it, this case of adulterious issues....I have seen alot of them, heard alot. But y is it that only d inferior onces get subjected to this ruling? Daughters belonging 2 d riches, sons of d riches,or well  known merchants some of them have also engaged in such an act, but why havent they been stoned as well? This seriously soils and damages Islam?s image.?
Anyways written laws r like spider's webs: they will catch, it is true, the weak and poor, but would b torn in pieces by d rich & powerful

U know wat ? Even if Amina is wrong .........she still has kept that simple faith (islam) she learned as a child.

Finally I cant argue with d words & laws of Allah subhana wata'ala.......but still those ruling out such measures should do it according to what is exactly in his books!

No one can judge better, except Allah is 2 judge best!!!

wooooo this is tooo longgggggggggggg
Despite ur slammin, am still jammin!!!

Anonymous

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2003, 02:11:34 AM »
Ummita
No need to apologise. It is not too long as it is all the truth.

Offline Jack_Fulcher

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2003, 03:44:16 AM »
Mr. Waziri, you added this new thread and I did not notice it.  I posted my reply to your previous excellent post to the previous thread, the one about whether the death penalty is obsolete.  Should I move it here?  In any case, thank you for the reference to your talk - I will print it out and read it on my way home.  Good night.  Jack Fulcher

Offline al_hamza

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2003, 03:58:47 PM »
i was writing a very long essay on ummita, then i realised it wouldnt be nice insulting her so much, so i just decided to write a few words

"ummita, if you are scared of Allah (if u are a muslim by any chance) please keep your mouth shut, religion isnt soccer okay?
ABILUNAH? SABILUNAH? AL-JIHAD! AL-JIHAD!

Offline al_hamza

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2003, 04:29:05 PM »
jack,
please be the messiah and tell us what to do..........

okay? tell us about the perfect life you believe in, tell us how we should spend our lifes,

i want to know what you have to say,

i already know you want us to throw shariah away (axtaghfurullah) which we wont, apart from that what else do you want us to do? run for money? more and more?

the way you said, make life longer? live for 120years? you see strict muslims believe that life is like an exam, the longer you live the more mistakes you'd make, the more chances is that you fail, the likelier is that you end up in HELL,

Prophet Nooh (Noah) lived for 900+ years, when he Died, an angel asked him, how was it like to live for so many years? His answer? "It was like walking in from one door and leaving through the other". So jack how many years do you want to live? i wish Allah will bless you with more years than you wish for.

jack, what do you want? honestly i am confused! you want me to live like you or what? the way you believe life is......?

no wonder! no wonder! though i havent lived in any country that is greatly influenced by america, i now see plainly the reason why jihadists target you people.
ABILUNAH? SABILUNAH? AL-JIHAD! AL-JIHAD!

Offline al_hamza

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2003, 04:56:02 PM »
The pope urged Europeans to resist materialism. "In the near future, your country will become a full member of the European community," John Paul said at Bratislava's airport.

"Dearly beloved, bring to the construction of Europe's new identity the contribution of your rich Christian tradition," the pope said.

"Do not be satisfied with the soul quest for economic advantages. Great affluence, in fact, can also generate great poverty."

Slovakian President Rudolf Schuster and cheering well-wishers waving banners that read, "We love you," greeted the pope amid heavy security.

Gay and lesbian activists were among the crowds protesting against what they say is a growing intrusion of the church into public and private life.

you see, i got this from cnn,

even the pope is against materielism,

look, gays and lesbian activists, jack, arent you ashamed? what has christianity come to? do you know why it has come to this? because of your free speech ideas, well freedom of speech isnt forbidden in Islam, but people with little knowledge have been asked to try not to speack (the way your lovely ummita does)

thats why today, your free america is a confused nation, you dont know which direction your going in,
ABILUNAH? SABILUNAH? AL-JIHAD! AL-JIHAD!

Offline ummita

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2003, 11:19:21 PM »
Quote
i was writing a very long essay on ummita, then i realised it wouldnt be nice insulting her so much, so i just decided to write a few words

"ummita, if you are scared of Allah (if u are a muslim by any chance) please keep your mouth shut, religion isnt soccer okay?

U know wat Al-Hamza?.....I juss read that 'n' smiled 2 mah self.

Even if u insult me, I wont dignify ur insults with a response, not @ all..............

4 keep mah mouth shut!!! Hav u heard of "freedom of speech"?

Lastly.....b more civil & matured aight papy!!!

U know wat.....haters lyk u boost mah morale!!! ;)
Much luv brother
Despite ur slammin, am still jammin!!!

Offline ummita

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2003, 11:42:39 PM »
Quote
look, gays and lesbian activists, jack, arent you ashamed? what has christianity come to? do you know why it has come to this? because of your free speech ideas, well freedom of speech isnt forbidden in Islam, but people with little knowledge have been asked to try not to speack (the way your lovely ummita does)

(She laffs) Well DUH!!!!! of course u r ryt, I hav lil knowledge no doubt 2 that.....am still learnin,.......  8)

Besides bro.....am pretty used with ur ways, this aint d first tym u been all rudy 2 sum of us here includin mah self....so lets juss say thats ur NATURE :P Take a hike!!! Go 4 long wlks, meditate it will du u gud. ;)

Back 2 d topic of discussion..........
Despite ur slammin, am still jammin!!!

Offline Jack_Fulcher

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2003, 02:26:43 AM »
Ummita, you are great!  You cut right to the core of an issue, and do not beat around the bush.  I think we now know the basic philosophy of al-Hamza:

1. If you do not agree with me, you are stupid.
2. Why argue using facts when I can be sarcastic instead?
3. I do what I want and it is just none of your business, so there! :P
4. You girls better get in line, or else!  We brave boys will get you! >:(
5. Progress?  Who needs it?
6. Poverty is cool!  8)
7. All material comforts are the work of the Devil!
8. Living a long life is for suckers!  Let us all kill ourselves! ;D

Is this a fair summary, al-Hamza?  What do you think, Ummita?  Was this just the way al-Hamza was brought up?  Did his father just make fun of him instead of talking with him?

I am sorry to be so rude to you, a-H, and I really do not care if you talk to me the way you do, and belittle what I say rather than advance intelligent argument, but you really should not talk to our Ummita in that way.  She is a smart and sincere woman who deserves respect, even if you do not agree with her.

As for the Pope, a-H, it is easy for him to say that material comforts are unimportant, since he is one of the wealthiest people on earth.  The Vatican is awash in wealth, and they still want their followers to send them 10% of their income each year.  If he is concerned about poverty, he can write a check, or better yet tell the faithful that it is OK to have smaller families.  It is hard to crawl out of poverty when you have 10 kids to clothe and feed.

You seem to be fascinated with this gay and lesbian issue.  Is there something we should know, a-H?  Sorry, I am being mean again.  Homosexuals have been a part of society forever, and they just want to be treated equally.  Both Christianity and Islam treat it as though people have a choice, but I do not believe this is the case.  I think that people are born liking either boys or girls, and they cannot change it.  I am just speaking from my knowledge of the gay people I know.  This is way off-topic, however, so I should not pursue it now.

Mr. Waziri, I enjoyed your talk regarding leadership skills among Nigerians.  I find it hard to believe that it is as bad as you describe.  My colleague from Nigeria has very good corporate skills, and has risen high in my organization.  Yet you say that Nigerians lack a full measure of “a paradigm of sound character and effective disposition.”  You also mention that children are sometimes raised with inconsistency and doubt, that the child is beaten whenever he displeases the parent.  Maybe this hurts what Americans call self esteem, which is necessary for any leader.  If someone is taught that they are not a worthy individual, if they just do not like themselves much, no one will want to follow them or do what they say.  The subject of beating children is addressed elsewhere on this board, but I would try to minimize it and stress reason and rationality as a way to handle problems.  

What do you think, Ummita, is this al-Hamza's problem?

I agree with you, Mr. Waziri, that we need to listen more and care about others in order to be able to lead.  Dave Hill makes a good point about the major religions stressing this sort of each helping the other.  Your list of eight goals for society is also a good one.  I would like to point out that the only team-oriented goal on the list is the last one, that the others have to do with individual growth and comfort.  It may be that it is crucial to address the first seven goals before we are ready to achieve the last one.  All in all, a very thoughtful analysis, sir.

Al-Hamza, say you are sorry to Ummita.

Must go.  Peace.  Jack

Offline Hafsy_Lady

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2003, 08:45:28 PM »
Quote
Even if u insult me, I wont dignify ur insults with a response, not @ all..............

Al-Hamza yanzu baka ji kunya ba, kai na miji har kana da lokacin tsayawa hayagaga da mace? Besides what has she said that is wrong. Please respect yourself

And if you call your self a muslim as well then who are you to judge another being?????????????
Haba broda wetin hot!!!!!! This is a forum we can all give out our opinion then argue but not to insult. ::) ::)

Hiss, this kind of thing disgusts me. Please Jack lets put this to a stop

Kai Allah ya sawake
What you see is what you get[/b]

Offline Jack_Fulcher

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2003, 08:53:59 PM »
I agree, 1/2 sy.  I think Ummita handles al-Hamza and his insults very well.  No need for me to butt in.  I was having a bad day, sorry.  Jack

Offline lionger

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2003, 09:05:40 AM »
Quote
But y is it that only d inferior onces get subjected to this ruling? Daughters belonging 2 d riches, sons of d riches,or well ?known merchants some of them have also engaged in such an act, but why havent they been stoned as well? This seriously soils and damages Islam?s image.?
Anyways written laws r like spider's webs: they will catch, it is true, the weak and poor, but would b torn in pieces by d rich & powerful


This has been one of my biggest concerns about Northern Nigeria's Sharia; that it could end up becoming a heavy burden and oppression to the masses. Partly because in my humble opinion, it was not really installed for their good, but to preserve the relevance  and power of the Northern politicians after the loss of Aso Rock. But on this point I seemed to be a lone ranger, maybe because after all, I was just a yeye Christian Southerner lol ;D. How I wish ppl like u would come out and speak on these issues more often. It's bad enough that the laws of the land r only applied to the poor; but isn't it even worse to use religion to do the same thing?

Offline Eskimo

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2003, 05:08:43 PM »
It s been long coz I was on vacation.. although I took my time to read all posts I decided to keep my "fingers" shut and enjoy my leave... ;D
Brother Waziri, thanks for your advice...but know that I am a very strict muslim who believe in only what Allah and his messenger said and command...with no consideration to any human interpretation be it Imamul Madhhab...or whoever...and since I find it difficult to ascertain the authenticity of some hadith I simply refer any Hadith to the text of Holy Quran..if Quran is silent over the issue I follow Hadith...if there is any contradiction no matter how little i discard the hadith even if it be from Bukhari...or anyone...

If you dare said yusuf Ali made a mistake in his translation why not admit he is only human like Bukhari and Imama Malik who are also capable of making human errors?

I applied the same to stonning and I found that out:

Prophet really did stone adulterers (and may be fornicators coz the word used is ZINA).
But that was before the surat Nur was revealed after that I believe stonning was abrogated...

The Issue of stonning is a very controversial issue not only recently as you said...Umar (RTA) was quoted to ve said in Bukhari ....Volume 8, Book 82, Number 816:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

'Umar said, "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, "We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book,..."

Although I dont really know which Quran they mean, just know it is not a new issue...I am not sure of that Hadith Authenticity yet it does not matter, that isthe saying of Umar not the Prophet

When it comes to the issue of AMINA LAWAL which law are they using to cite PREGNANCY as an evidence for ZINA when other aspect of civil sharia is not fully into practice.

For your information and anybody who care to listen: when a man (woman) divorces a woman (man) thae woman has to stay under the care of that man for 3 consequetive "monthly period" under the care of that man. Why three period? coz although we know there is no pregnancy just after one period (conventionally) there is another concept recognised by Islam known as "dormant embryo" by Ummita ;D. To avoid that Islam said 3 periods! Still according to your "Archaic" Maliki Madhhab "dormant embryo" can stay for upto 12 years! (check muwatta malik).
The question was that was Amina given that priveledge by the Sharia Law of katsina state? NO! may be after divorce na "pack your things and go to your fathers house".

One thing again God did not mention preganancy as proof for adultery...although it is clear NO PREGNANCY WITHOUT INTERCOURSE! But may be that was then...Now with Modern science all things are possible...NO let me not dwell on Modern Science that is too much Westernization..abi a_H..But atlest if we can by reason used pregnancy why not used DNA on the man also...atleast we used to do blood type testing method in our third world way to determine Paternity of a child...may that was before sharia!...or may be we are sticking dogmatially...(NOT EVEN TO THE PROPHET)...to Maliki school of Law that has no mention of even the most primitive form of blood test...

Sorry...I remember EMTL warned me on using REASON in ReLIGION...despite numerous places in the Quran where we are asked to use our senses...our conscience...May be we should used MADNESS to understand our religion.

Ummita no worry oh...atleast a_H did not insult you so just extend the islamic pardon on him...he is just being himself... :D
color=blue]NOBODY is PERFECT and I am NOBODY.[/color]

 


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