_WAZIRI_ ( HERE IS MY STAND ON TERRORISM)

[_Waziri_]

Ok Aminuddeen,

Scholars are those people who engage in studying some aspects of life no matter how trivial. And I believe you engage yourself in trying to study and understand Islam as such you are a scholar  in this sense. But scholars are of course  of levels, as some are beginners others may have excelled. One other thing, is logic forms the bedrock of schorlarly arguments and it does not leave any body out.

Having noted the facts which you agree with me on I will go on to substantiate what you called my misdirection of them.

Because the points raised above all are terrorism related and are commited by non muslims, without the perpetrators being rebuked, then, when muslims commit similar actions they musn't be condemned!

The logic is why must I believe myself a terrorist and believing so only when branded by others at the time they wish to brand me such but at the time they think I am not, I believe them? And suprisingly, they brand others something less than terrorists for doing what I am doing and yet I believe I should be condemned?

But for the sake of continuity lets agree that what you said is what I meant. If anybody anywhere should commit crime against me - commiting terrorism againt me, as in Isreal and America with there European backing- and be rebuked not , which indicates acceptability of his actions against me. Why should I be blamed for commiting the same kind of crime against him? You can see that those apportioning blames, ofcourse, the self styled judges, are not being guided by any good sense of justice and as such I will be justified by the same law of jungle to continue my crime until they agree to see everybody among us perpetrators under the same light. It is a warfare, a ceasefire is declared only when a common ground is reached. You can't shoot me and be right and when I shoot you back in the same sterategy be wrong.  Amin, I am being pragmatic using my facts wisely, not misdirecting them.

I also noted your contention and I will not recognise that Muslims too commit terrorism until those people who label Muslims terrorists recognise that others too commit the same act. Remember terrorism is not my term not also your term. Let those saddled with the manufacturing of terms and labels recognise that it can be applied to others than Muslims, then myself and you can follow their footsteps. We can't hijack their product and use it where they do not want it used.

And for your understanding, I do not draw alot of inspiration from Saudi Arabia as a country. I draw my inspiration from distingushed scholars who argue from the point of view of reason, logic, finesse and revelation.

You can also see that to the manufacturers of the term terrorism, Iman Khomeini will not be left out of the lists of world foremost terrorists just as you can include Hosni Mubarak who is also a Muslim leader who is not good enough to be like Khomeini.

Yes, I asked for quotations to make your points sharper and precise and put me in a position I can adequately bear my cross. Charges should come with clear references. If you care to  note, you will see that in my debates I do not charge but I debunk arguments. Where I charge, I site examples to appear stronger in subtance. This is the method.

You spoke about quotations which are what we want them to be which is true. But this true doe'snt hold when we put those quotations in full contexts of the debates and the circumstances they were referenced. You do not have to be an intellectual before you partake in fruitful discussions but you strive to see reason in the light of the superiority of the arguments put forward.

Finally and in the light of the many things I said above and the confusion that evolves from the representation of Khomeini as a terrorists by some people and your seeing him to mean the embodiment of Islam, and any other dispute that leads to others being labelled terorists in relative circumstances. I will conclude that no action in Islam can be labelled HARAM completely or HALAL without relating everything to condition. Thus an adulterer doing it under gun point cannot be seen as some body doing anything wrong even though adultery is wrong. So also what makes terrorism HALAL or HARAM can find meaning only in the light of the condition that gives birth to the action of TERROR. At certain conditions a terrorists also can be right just like the rich can also cry. Our task here if we identify with the true spirit of objectivity is to put the circumstances that lead to terrorism forward for proper examination before we can conclude on the HALALNESS or HARAMNESS of TERRORISM.

[SAAHIB 92]

Assalam all,

mydudu,waziri,mallamt thank u very much for your response, sharing of fact and expression of opinion base on islamic teachin.....and philosopical thought.

As we are all aware that this topic was tabled before the forum inorder to disscus,argue or condemn where neccessary on the act of suicide,terror and violence in the name of ( DINULLAH) islam. we of course must do MASLAHA to ourselves for not being deceived  by the western media captions and propaganda. what i suggest was just let's puts them or level them to where they deserve or be belong to.

" they are trangressors in this world, in hereafter they belong to the hellfire"

in my view the captioned we ought to maintain our focus was" the legalty or otherwise of the act " ab initio the consequences or devastation it might caused to the integral muslim ummah.


For the west and their cohorts, we knew their zombie like characters while making news headlines, because they ve' specialise in twisting and
distortion of story.concealing of truth was their trademark.publication of lies or flawfull coverage on islam and muslim was a daily slogan .

so what ve' we loss ? absolutely nothing ! except,when we deviat from the prophet teaching,exemplary character and above all to shyaway from the truth.   [/b]

[alhaji_aminu]

Salam

Nice one Waziri. My understanding of complex arguments is very limited and as such, I will respond according to my understanding. Lets not forget my Turanchi is 'little' more than cikin chokali. How 'little' you may ask?

I summarise your arguments as follows:

You grouse is not with Muslims called terrorists but the fact that if non Muslims commits similiar or more heinous crimes, they are not called terrorists.

I think the best answer is to not despair. Or simply to stop watching CNN, BBC,SKY news  and start listening to Radio Tehran!

America is todays super power. And it can, without being blamed, call anyone anything anywhere and at anytime for no reason. Why? Simply because they could.  That is called injustice and has nothing to do with justifying what is terrorism or not.

The best way to combat this phenomena is by imposing our own definition of terrorism and terrorists on America up to a point where it becomes clearly clear. A challenging proposition this is.

Rejceting the truth?

You said,   ".....I will not recognise that Muslims too commit terrorism until those people who label Muslims terrorists recognise that others too commit the same act"
Funny Waziri you said that. To 'quid-pro-quo' the truth does no one any good. What you are saying is that, for example, if I were to go to Kano Central mosque and bomb it killing perhaps 200 people simply because I am a member of the Izala sect, then I must not be called a terrorist because, for example, Baruch Goldstein has also bombed a Mosque in Hebron killing many, and was not called a terrorist by the western media.

Lastly you took exception to my naming Khomeini as a Muslim Leader and suggesting your scholarship is Saudi centered. On one of them I erred. That is, Khomeini is a person leading a country that has written into its constitution that Islam is the state religion. This does not necessarily translate to Khomeini being a muslim leader. May be a person leading muslims is a better description.

As for your scholarship being Saudi centered I am sure I was right.
You retinue of  scholars all have one thing or the other related to Saudia  (The Kingdom of fools). Albanee's books are popular there suggesting that his works are not censored by the Saudi ministries. Jaafar Adam I am not so sure but if I am not mistaken, he was educated in Saudia. Qaradawi I think is the one you are most influenced by. Based in Qatar and heavily popular in the Middle East, Qaradawi has pretty conservative views. He has said that Suicide bombing, most of which kill civilians, is a legitimate weapon of war. This proclamtion is a God sent to saudis who have this irrational and most often idiotic hatred for Jews even the unborn ones.


The liberal side of me tells me this is enough for the day may be i'll put my conservative hat tomorrow!

peace out.....

[SAAHIB 92]

mydudu,

"The liberal side of me tells me this is enough for the day may be i'll put my conservative hat tomorrow! " :lol:  :lol:


very nice , but make sure ur conservative hat contained respect to dinullah, liberty and freedom to the downtrodden,mercy and seek MASLAHA ON EVERYTHIN.

MA'ASSALAM

[alhaji_aminu]

SAAHIB

Ofcourse. As to matters of religion(ISLAM), there is no compromise......

[_Waziri_]

Aminuddeen, you should have seen that my rejection of the truth is on the premise that it is PARTIAL and I insist in saying it should be stated in FULL before I accept it. I guess putting it this way would have been fairer to me. The example of some Izala mosque ppl attacking other Muslims somewhere or whatever maybe, does not hold waters, because it is yet to happen. You know what? Have this from me today that if anybody will insist to say the truth about you, and say the truth not about himself, that person can even create lies and attribute them to you. Truth is not a one-way thing. You will see how this work in this post.

I am also impressed to note how you already hit the nail on the head, to have driven home the points yourself by suggesting to me to stop listening to CNN, BBC SKY and whatever, to be tuning to Iran only. I don't think this is the right thing to do. But I have better suggestion for you and myself. WE SHOULD all continue listening to these stations but open our eyes wider and also use what Napoleon Hill would call our sixth sense in order to achieve greater objectivity. This is the prescription of the Qur'an in this regard in Suratul Hujurat verse 6 saying:

O you who believe! If a wicked person comes to you with any news, ascertain the truth (verify the claims) that you may not harm people unwittingly, and afterwards become full of repentance for what you have done.

Yes. They have strong propaganda machinery but they make mistakes and it is in those mistakes you will be able to read through, beyond the News and propaganda, extracting the real truth. Ok now lets start doing it. Lets examine the Muslims terrorists' stories using the method as prescribed above. And I believe even if anybody is not Muslim, that person will not have problem with the above logic.  First we know these people are wicked and as such the verse above covers everything about them. Lets take 9/11 the foremost terrorist attack attributed to Muslims as our first premise before we come to what happened recently at Beslan, Russia.

Immediately after 9/11 if we can still remember, we witnessed serious desperation to create Islamic identities for the hijackers. A quick list was drafted telling the people of the world who these hijackers were. But only later for us to learn that many among the people identified are even dead. Some were in their respective countries engrossed in their daily businesses contributing to the welfare of their people. What is common in the list is only the fact that all of them studied piloting somewhere in USA.

The Problem: Could it be that there is no comprehensive list of those who boarded the planes at the moment? Or is it the Western media houses felt it better to go to a near by piloting school to get a quick list of Arabs that will serve as a first reference list? There were also stories of Muslims in hotels taking bear and living behind Qur'anic texts. Yes, whoever crafted this story thinks Muslims will believe that the devoted ones among them are the ones who take alcohol. Well, whatever the case maybe we will live to remember the truth that op till this day there is no clear evidence that it was Muslims that attacked twin towers. And up to this day nobody cares to come up with proofs in that regard. And that was how it was all saddled on Osama Bin Laden and Alqaeda Network. With this half-truth these people mercilessly invaded Afghanistan, killing and brutally raping innocent children and Women of Harem.

Aminuddeen he who tells truth about you but tells it not about himself can even lie against you. Do you think the blame of 9/11 can lie on the Muslim as it is said and based on the criteria as elucidated in the above verse? Do you think this news that Muslim did 9/11 from Western media IS true? Don't you think other stories of terrorists attack by Muslims could be also a fabrication? Or at least over blown and misrepresented?

Now, lets take the issue of Beslan even according to Western Media. I will rely here on BBC Hausa service to be analytic.

BBC said that these Muslims terrorists mounted a siege on a school and held women and children as hostages.

Immediate Response: Why on God's earth would these Muslims do that? I asked my self!

BBC said it was because they wanted some of their leaders, caught and detained by the (unjust) Russian Government to be released.

Immediate Response: I know Chechens want their independence they certainly have a good bargaining point in that action. Russia will then release them and they too will release the women and children. It is really a good strategy they really stand to win.

BBC said they (The so-called terrorists) held the hostages for three days no food, nothing; the people are even drinking their urine. And the government ordered for bunch of armies to circle the whole area and make sure nobody escaped.

Immeadiate Response: Ayya! These Russian leaders are not good. Since you know these subjects are dear to you, you live and die for them and now they are in danger why not just attend to the demands of the "terrorists" in order to free your ppl?

BBC submitted that after 3 days the Russian soldiers heard something cracking with a very loud noise from the inner side of the area and therefore bulldozed their ways into the building before an exchange of ammunition would begin between them and the "terrorists", the Russian soldiers killed some people of their own. Some of the terrorists were caught some died and some escaped. But still BBC said people in the town were optimistic that there was no any loud voice from the area. It was only Russian soldiers who felt it better to make their ways in.

The Analysis:

From the account of what happened from the BBC and other Western Media Outfits who also maintained that the Muslims were terrorists. If we look carefully we will see that those Muslims were not terrorists, they did not wish to harm the women and the children. We will also be able to see the Muslims were only FREEDOM FIGHTERS who only wanted to get a bargain that would guarantee the release of their leaders and liberate their people from the bondage of slavery. Because if really the Russian government cannot see a reason of attending to the wishes of a "merciless terrorists" who keep a good number of their children and women hostages how can the Russian government be good and fair to the Chechens?  Can't you see that these Muslim "terrorists" were only heroes trying to salvage their people?

The mistake on the part of the Muslim "terrorists" was only their overestimation of the good sense of responsibility of the Russian government. They thought the Russians were as human as they were that they could forfeit everything of their belonging in order to save the lives of their people. No, the terrorists were wrong to have assumed the Russians see value in life as they see.

Now Aminuddeen, I want you to go to the other post and withdraw your comments, which said the Muslims, killed those children because they were not Muslim children. I believe you have seen that the Muslim terrorists did not kill those children because they were not Muslim children. But leaders of Russia created the situations that led to the death of their children. Remember in such kind of situations, the Muslim "terrorist" would only think of how best he could escape from being caught ne Kawai.

Will discuss Saudi scholarship, Qaradawi, Suicide biombing tomorrow Insha Allah.

[SAAHIB 92]

mydudu,

it seems like u re going to be engage on turf about qardawi, and his teaching style do you apply for that? or you have applied to know more if any abt suicide bombing, that  have been screened throughout last week...any way i did n't know. let me give you some clue abt the faceless person in quetion.
What is the reality? Is Qaradawi an extremist sheikh?
The fact is that in social matters he is considered among the most moderate but in relation to public political affairs he becomes a different mufti and has a well-known track record. Perhaps his links with the Muslim Brotherhood organization made him view the world from that narrow window rather than the reality, ability and needs of the Ummah.

What the Saudi minister for Islamic affairs said regarding some of the mosques? preachers applies also to Qaradawi ? that they incite young men to go and fight while they remain in their countries and don?t allow their own children to fight. Sheikh Al-Qaradawi, may God forgive him, was one of the most fervent preachers for war and confrontation, yet he continues to live in his air-conditioned house in Qatar.

so...so..mydudu this was  the qardawiyya you ve apply to know abt if u......ma'assalam

[_Waziri_]

it seems like u re going to be engage on turf about qardawi, and his teaching style do you apply for that?

You really are misreading your pathways. The following was what Amin said and it is based on that I intend to reply him.

As for your scholarship being Saudi centered I am sure I was right.
You retinue of scholars all have one thing or the other related to Saudia (The Kingdom of fools). Albanee's books are popular there suggesting that his works are not censored by the Saudi ministries. Jaafar Adam I am not so sure but if I am not mistaken, he was educated in Saudia. Qaradawi I think is the one you are most influenced by. Based in Qatar and heavily popular in the Middle East, Qaradawi has pretty conservative views. He has said that Suicide bombing, most of which kill civilians, is a legitimate weapon of war. This proclamtion is a God sent to saudis who have this irrational and most often idiotic hatred for Jews even the unborn ones.

[SAAHIB 92]

i misread my pathways.......or u ve'  failed to grease ur argument with specific stand, so that u could be clearly understood.cos' the tools u put in place shows that u re' neither here nor there, no everywhere.
i will tell why if u ask...........

[_Waziri_]

If you own of to your claims you wouldn't have to wait for me to ask you why. Remember we are doing these things not for ourselves only. We believe others will read and benefit from this discourse so please do not reduce it to myself and you only, make your points and others will believe you if you make more sense. You may even be lucky enough to win my conviction to your side.

[Ibro2g]

    Terrorism is wrong, and no amount of brutality, animacity or superiority can justify it. It destroys humanity either wholly or gradually and who so ever commits, permits or supports it is comitting, permiting or supporting evil. It is what was done to the red indians of the Americas, the Black Africas of the last millennium, the Bonians, the chechnians and now prety much a good number of the world. It was here and it still is.

    Muslims all over the world whether guilty or not has been tagged as terrorist, whether  its media propaganda, superior governmental accusation, or lobby groups; we have been tagged...wrongfully accused.

    The Islamic world is thought and known to be peace makers all over history, they were thought and preached mercy, independance and respect for even individual soveriegnty irrespect of race, culture or religion. Its a world known for its indiscrimination. The religion of islam permits peace, and its exception only when compelled, when peace itself is threatened, and suitable leaders are to justify just how compelling in a giving society at a giving time. As when a Fatwa for Jihaad is giving out, the might of Islam of the world contribute to re settle the peace.

     However, in some societies of our time. The need is arrising and fast exceeding its limits for peace and order. The genocides or "muslicides"  and discrimination in Bosnia and eastern Europe, the genocides of central and eastern Africa, muslicides in Kashmir, Afgan and above all the disgraceful abuse of power in the middle east. These with the help of currupt leaders have brought about people looking into themselves for answers, for fatwas roaming about the streets of every city on the planet... the decisions that should be made by authorities are in the hands of the individual man due to the reluctance of the leaders. So as worldly decisions are made by every individual, ofcause some individuals are violent and even evil. Framing one And will do just about anything to get thier goals. Them individuals, organisations and even governments.

     These evil parastatals use every book they have written to justify thier selfish interests and evil doing... all of them. What irony as to who justifies the books. Evil governments destroy with thier might, evil organisations with wealth, and individuals with death. The issue of terrorism and talk less of sucide bombimg. Islam  forbids to inject even the slightest amount of fear into ones neigbourhood or individual even. It even forbids making loud noises that could scare off a kitten, speaking of minute terror. Life taking is a serious and capital offence in Islam but sucide is alot worse, its an act of faithlessness and absolute disbelief in God, and there fore an act of Shirk. This is punishable by God till forever in the flames of Hell.
You dont believe in God, thats your problem! So Apparently nobody killing any nations innocent civilians at random on the streets or in thier homes or anywhere as per say can claim in anyway to be representing Islam or what Islam represents: Peace.

      Islamic action is justified only when it is justified, Islamic justice cannot and does not lie in the hands of an individual rather to a governing Islamic body. Whatever happens muslims cannot take actions on thier own hands but their representing councils. If we find ourselves without the right leaders that could intelligently and rightly guide and represent us, then we have ourselves to be blamed, and we have to dal with out internal problems before the external. If you call this a war, it will neva be won without its generals and colonels...captains wont do! We cant keep risking ourselves or commiting sucide(which is out of the question) for something not genuinely just. Remember, the difference between muslims and non muslims is we blieve in a God, the God. And he has brought to us a guide so we can serve him. And in neglecting that guide, we have neglected God, and so who so ever neglects his guide is not different from any other non muslim. Let our anger and fright and sorrows not decieve us and drag us from our guide, we must keep in our faith, for worries end where faith begins.We musnt forget this!

      But something much troubling, even more than the highly concentrated upon sucide bombers is evil governing, and organisations. What justifies the genocide in Afghanistan? what purpose? What justifies the war on Iraq, what justifies the divastating and diverse weapons used on them? What justifies the killings in Gaza? what even justify it as a war? this is simply a superior military killing people of a certain race;Genocide commited by the Isreali government, who justifies it? Too many questions that has no answers, or atleast thier answers dont make reason. like why can Europe use a single currency and West Africa cant. Why wont the IMF collect the loans payed back but will rather extend the slavery and still charge high interests. I dont understand why one or two nations, bandit to the United Nations decide what every nation does and how. What terror is larger than what the chief terrorists are doing, the creators of all the little terrorists all over the world, the United States and side kick, Isreal.

       In as much as these great terrorists keep inducing terror in our societies and creating more terrorists, our world will never find peace. Blinded by the media, terrorised by the U.S and having no representing leaders leave the islamic world in confusion, and  unless we make leaders of the faithful ones we have left, I'm afraid we'll only continue to detoriate. May Allah guide us, Ameen.

      The issue of terrorism shouldnt be a tough debate here, no one can justify it, I'm afraid not even dear old legendary Waziri. But the truth still isnt hidden for terrorists are not muslims, since Islam forbids them, but the major evil doers we should watch for are the terrorists that terrorise without questions.

[_Waziri_]

The issue of terrorism shouldnt be a tough debate here, no one can justify it, I'm afraid not even dear old legendary Waziri. But the truth still isnt hidden for terrorists are not muslims, since Islam forbids them, but the major evil doers we should watch for are the terrorists that terrorise without questions.

Ibro2g where have you been all this while? Nobody sees you.

I have noted your arguments but I think right from the outset we should have defined Terrorism,  see how it is different from War. Think of what can justify War and what can justify the sitting tight of the one being fought  without retaliating just for the simple reason that he will be branded a terrorist by some media outfit.

Why did the early Muslims including the Prophet went to war or unleashed "terror" on those people who "terrorised" them? I repeat nothing can be justified without considering the circumstances of its happening. As Abu Zaid would say in The Assemblies, " You adjudge that I should be lavish and you hoard?"

[Ibro2g]

I have noted your arguments but I think right from the outset we should have defined Terrorism,  see how it is different from War.

I verymuch agree, and I do leave u to define but not justify... I want u to first state "the" rules of engagement in Islam before any justification could take place![/color]


Oh...and I am very much alive,yet. dear Waziri!

[_Waziri_]

If it is in relation to what my muslim brothers are doing in Isreal and other places I never said it was terrorism. Read all mu arguments very well . I believed it to be freedom fighting. So Ibro I did not justify terrorism. But rather  I am justifying freedom fighting!!!

Recently one of us, the most vibrant female writer in Northern Nigeria, Aisha Umar Yusuf replied Israel's ambassador in Nigeria who found reason to express concern about how Media Trust brand suicide bombers to be matyr-bombers.

So you can see how your own terrorist is my freedom fighter and your or anybody else's suicide bomber is my matyr bomber.

Everything is about label. When they call and condemn my freedom fighter to be  a terrorist  you believe them.

When I call him my freedom fighter you say I am wrong. And persist on your stand.

[Ibro2g]

Waz, its not about the label! We have guidelines as muslims. We are guided and have rules, fixed rules if that of the western civilization is dynamic and selfish thanks to the senate, judiciary and whatever comes forth.
  In order to remain muslims we have to follow our "rules of engagement" which I havent seen from u.
  Killing is haram by any individual, I ask of an ISLAMIC AUTHORITY, IF THERE ISNT ANY THEN WE HAVE OURSELVES TO BLAME MY FRIEND!