Roman Catholic Church and child sex abuse.

[moray]

You may be aware of the controversy surrounding the Catholic church in United States and Ireland regarding the sexual abuse of children. It is a fact that Catholic priests and in some cases nuns abused and raped vulnerable young children who they should have been helping. It is also true that spiritual leaders of the Roman Catholic church protected these child abusers and rapists. The Catholic church has been shamed in America and Ireland and many priests have gone to prison. The church has also had to pay compensation to the victims of abuse. I know Irish missionaries have had a heavy influence in the Catholic church in Nigeria. I wonder if evil practices were committed against Nigerian children. If yes, who will ensure these children get justice. Who will bring their abusers to justice. Certainly not the Catholic church who have turned a blind eye to this evil. It is surely the responsibilty of other religions in Nigeria to see justice gets done. Nothing can compensate the victims of abuse, but they can see that justice is done and also claim compensation from those who protected their abusers whereever they are.  [/list]

[moray]

Well , it looks like Nigerian catholics have learned to stay quiet.

[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

I don't believe a lot of Nigerian Catholics visit this web site. But, of course, if Moray had any sense he would have known that.

During my many years in Nigeria I met many hundreds of Nigerian Catholics. I never heard even the slightest suggestion of any of the sort of thing that Moray suggests in his wicked post.

I also knew all the Catholic priests and nuns in Kano ovet years. All I ever saw them doing was helping the Nigerian poor and teaching Nigerian children.
May I also say that the Catholic Church in Northern Nigeria always showed the highest respect for Islam.

[moray]

I never said all catholics were like that. The evil ones are only a minority. I know many catholics have done good work in Nigeria. However, what I said about the catholic church in America and Ireland is completely true, its leaders did aid and protect the evildoers. If you think I am a liar, then read the online editions of American and Irish newspapers. The reason I posted this message to Kanoonline is because if such evil is happening in Nigeria, then I do not believe the catholic church will take any action against it. As I said in my message it is the responsibility of non catholics in Nigeria to expose and punish the evildoers. If you find that the Nigerian catholic church is innocent, then I will be happy, because it means that Nigerian children will not have suffered like children in America and Ireland.

[Maqari]

:lol:  :lol:  :lol: @ Mr Moray, You appear to have gotten the legal procedure backwards ! (one first needs a reason to investigate a situation) there is enough crime to prosecute as it is buddy, and no need whatsoever to invent some new ones.

the problem you referred to in your post is neither endemic nor exclusive of any set of religious belief system. it's a personal failure of an individual to triumph his/her reason and moral over desire and can be (in fact it is) found within any society regardless of its conventional princples.

at the very least though, the post was sort of amusing lol.

Peace bro, ONE

[moray]

Maqari, all you need is suspicion to investigate a crime. If no crime was committed then no action needs to be taken. Of course there is other crimes that need to be investigated, but that is no excuse for turning a blind eye to child abuse. Certainly all religions are guilty of bad things, but the celibate nature of the catholic clergy makes them more likely to be child abusers.
Finally, if you think child abuse is funny, then you have a warped sense of humour.

[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

May I compliment Maqari on his excellent response. I myself could relate some very disturbing incidents I was aware of regarding Islamic Malams and female pupils whose parents had entrusted them to their care at boarding colleges in Kano State when I worked for the Min of Ed in Kano.
I would not for one minute ascribe the misbehaviour of these men to their Islamic religion or blame Islam for their individual human failings.
There is no doubt that many cases of abuse have been uncovered in the Catholic Church in America. The Church has in some cases dealt very inadequately with these cases. They do however represent the actions of a very tiny minority of the priests in the USA. In Ireland it is even smaller and a lot of it is about very harsh discipline used by nuns in orphanages and reform schools  which many people felt in those days was the correct way to deal with troublesome children.
What Moray is reacting to is the way the western newspapers and prees love to exagerate any issue which can damage religions. It is for example shocking how some cheap American and UK newspapers continually misrepresent Islam in their pages.

[Maqari]

Alright Moray, let us set the terms straight (clearly so) to avoid further complications.

First of all, I do not for an instance think that there is anything humorous about ?child abuse? whatever be its nature. Second, the practice shall and must be (for the lack of better word) condemned and punished accordingly when and where ever it occurs.

I hope we are clear? Now, what caused me to laugh was rather: the clumsy way in which you went about forming your argument. As you noted; one first needs suspicion to launch an investigation. Yet you failed to mention that this suspicion begs to be supplemented with a cause and or reasons much firmer than the inadmissible assumption that; if certain groups are known to be alike in some respect, then they must certainly Also be alike in all others, because this simply just isn?t true.

And yes sexual abstinence that is coerced from repression of natural desires could (and in many cases did) ?ironically? mutate into some gravely undesirable tendencies. And that; the many ?incidents? within The Catholic Church at the places mentioned afore are blatant examples of the problem. Still this does not provide you with enough grounds to accuse Nigerian Priests of the practice. Your point of attack is the principle of celibacy, which (from my non Christian understanding) does not always necessarily lead to ?child abuse? and when well practiced can be a respectable discipline that allows the practitioner to devout greater energy towards the service of their people.  


Assuming that by ?child abuse? you specifically mean those cases in relation to sex or (to be precise) Pedophilia. I shall add that: In decrying the practice I?m in no way pushing for one religious belief to police the other because it disagrees with some of the other?s constituent parts.

I decry it because the practice targets children, who are yet to develop any tangible understanding of the putative physical, medical, emotional, and social upshots of sexual intercourse.
Because of the terminal-damaging effects on the victim, as can only come from such inhumane abuse of position and power. Furthermore, sexual intercourse with pre-pubescent females is been strongly suspected to be linked with cervical cancer.

The above reasons then compel me to ask you; if your concern is genuine, what then do you say about our communities that often set the age of consent so low that it practically encompasses every single one of the concerns I mentioned?

Shouldn?t you be more worried about (for example) Mallam Musa who marries off his 11 year old daughter to the elderly wealthy local merchant in order to win himself some favors from the latter?

because doing otherwise will be the equivalent of saying;  "child abuse" is evil 'unless' with social and parental agreement.


Peace, ONE

[moray]

Maqari, I am very sorry for the accusation that you were treating child abuse as a joke. Clearly you were not and I ask your forgiveness. However, I must deal with some of your points.
Celibacy is a huge sacrifice for any human being to make, but I have to say that this strict unnatural rule has encouraged members of the catholic clergy to sexual perversion. There is nothing in the bible which prohibits sex and I believe it makes catholic clergy less sensitive when dealing with the problems of families and married couples. Normally, I would not like one religion policing another. However, the catholic church has only done the right thing when there was pressure from outside. You can read about this if you view online editions of Irish newspapers, or just put "Bishop Brendan Comiskey Ireland" in your search engine. I deplore the age of consent being prepubescent and the culture of young girls being married off. However, two wrongs hardly make a right. I am not familiar with the case of Mallam Musa, but if you are referring to a Muslim, surely this shows that the Muslims are not turning a blind eye to abuse in their religion, they are doing something about it. I wish the catholic church would learn from them.

[Maqari]

Moray, Thanks for the kind response. I'm glad we got that cleared.

I do not in any sense undermine the perversive problems concerning the issue of celibacy and the Catholic Church. however I'm not so sure that the muslim communities are innocent. the case of Mallam Musa is a fictional example of the situation not a real occurrance. but trust me, I have witnessed much more often than I'm proud of; a  prepubescent/adolescent child getting groomed and sent on her way to the dungeons of marriage in my own extended family. and YES nothing was done about it. so quite frankly, Yes. the problem of pedophilia is existent as much within the mentality of the elderly husband as it is within the mind of the lonely priest.

as you noted; Two wrongs do not make one right. but dwelling on somebody else's wrongs is; as equally distracting from correcting our own flaws.


Peace, ONE

[_Waziri_]

Salam all,

While I find reason to agree with Mr. Hill on the "spoiler" attitude of the Western press when it comes to dealing with major world religions, their symbols and those personalities who represent the seemingly fainted glory of the faiths, I cannot help but to disagree with Maqari on the assumption that it is equally an "aberration" - on a very flat categorisation- to give out an 11 year old "Lady" to marriage.

This is not say that every 11 year year old can be given out on marriage ( that I may not be caught in the same pit on flat categorisation of peoples and situations). But the truth of the matter and according to Britain's official figures is 93,000 Ladies, below the age of consent get pregnant yearly in the country out of which 8000 are below 16 years of age. Last year my cousin told me how he met a thirteenth year old in Britain who had 3 children out of wedlock.

Here comes the question: If an eleven year old can have sex and conceive leading to safe delivery why must we consider it an aberration to give out an 11 year old out in marriage?

Yes, it is said these "kids" must reach the age of consent (18) but then what happened to  George Bush(Snr) who married the mother of George Bush (jnr) when she was only 16 years old?

[moray]

Waziri, Even a small child can tell you two wrongs do not make a right.
It is disgraceful that 93000 girls under the age of consent get pregnant in Britain every year. I am sure alot more than that have sex or are the victims of abuse. But this does not justify 11 year old girls being forced into marriage elswhere.
If someone has sex with a girl under the age of consent in Britain, it is statutary rape and the man can go to prison, even if the girl was willing. Britain is far from perfect, but at least they recognise the problem and are trying to do something about it, they are not trying to hide behind injustices elsewhere.

[_Waziri_]

No. Moray. You are the ones believing that giving out an 11 year old in marriage is wrong. But what I sucessfully did above was to  question the basis of that belief which I called assumption. I may not likely  shift position until you provide me with a higher reason as to why having sex with or giving out an 11 year old in marrige should be treated as anything wrong.

Note that Britain may have her laws even though they may justifiably appear to be nonsensical to Waziri until when supported with higher claims. Note also that I did not support the idea of forcing an 11 year old into marriage but rather I stand for GIVING her out in marriage seeing no any speculative danger therein.

[Maqari]

Brother Waziri

I find myself utterly incapable of surmounting the urge to always respond to your opinions  :)  You are simply irresistible!

Shall we?
You remarked: ?But what I successfully did above was to question the basis of that belief which I called assumption.?

In contrast, the only thing you successfully did was to land yourself yet in another quagmire of contradiction, all the while failing to address any of the grave concerns I sought to bring to light.

I tried to stress the point that; I do not give two damns about where and how the practice of child abuse occurs, long as it does, that my concerns are solely and entirely rooted in the mental and physical consequences of the practice, that the molestation of an 11year old is equally (in my eyes) as condemnable in a Liverpool back alley as it is in the confines of a husband?s home in Zaria.

I also find it equally appalling and mind boggling that you question my reasons on the basis that; ?If an eleven year old can have sex and conceive leading to safe delivery why must we consider it an aberration to give out an 11 year old out in marriage??. This in itself is an alarming ?flat categorisation? a perilous one at that, because you are quite simply restricting the function of the female gender within our society to sexual pleasure and reproductive purposes. In the very same machismo manner that initially denied the woman the right to make decisions about the usage of her own body!!!.

This gives birth to many questions including;
1-   If an 11 year old can even give an informed consent on such life impacting decisions as Marriage and Sex?
2-   While an 11 year old is ?technically? able to voice consent, shall any sound thinking adult trust the 11 year olds mental and experiential capacity to process and comprehend the magnitude of what she/he is consenting to?
3-   The great Age disparities that are often characteristic of such ceremonies cause one to wonder if there can ever be justice and balance in such a relationship.
4-   (As I pointed out earlier) sexual activity in young girls has been linked to such devastating upshots like irregular pap smears, cervical cancer later in adulthood, excessive difficulty at child delivery due to poor or under development of certain body parts, undue suffering during pregnancy etc??.so are we to accept that since there are isolated cases where the above did not happen, we can qualify all 11 year olds to be eligible for sexual intercourse?
5-   Also while an 11 year old female might be physically able to accommodate an adult?s penis, does she posses the emotional development to deal with the many connotations that accompany it?
6-   Let?s not overlook the fact that social and religious settings often prevent a thorough scientific inquiry into the victims as exemplified by the condemnation of the US Congress of Rind et al.




Its amazing that you do not notice the inconsistency in your statements bro. would you please point out the difference between; ?forcing an 11 year old into marriage? and ?GIVING her out in marriage? because I see no difference whatsoever. Both you and I are aware that; 11 year olds in Nigeria are not customarily allowed the privilege to be as defiant as to refuse a chosen husband. And to ?give out? something suggest ownership of that thing. So why pretend that 11 year old girls have any rights to self determination? Why not just come out and say: Yes our society grants no rights to 11 year old girls? including the right to determine the direction of their lives.  

Another thing is (and this is absolutely besides the point) I notice how you repeatedly seek to find flaws in the so called ?Western? way of life and highlight them for me in our many discourses. I have said this before, and will continue saying it for as long as it persists; Maqari does not represent or advocate any cultural ideology or condone such easy tendencies. I simply take and try to use what I find virtuous, and denounce what is contrary, from the diverse cultures I?m exposed to, be it Western, Eastern, Confucian or Slavic, point blank.

And of course I apologize if I?m mistaken in the above assumption.

Peace, One.

PS. As much as I despise the bush Family (and would have loved your claim above to be true 8) ) I must point out that public records have the marriage date of George Herbert Walker Bush and Barbara Pierce (the mother of George W Bush) as; January 6, 1945. while a different entry has her birth date as June 8, 1925. Making her exactly one year the former president?s junior. You do the math.

Aright this is starting to feel more like a Trivial Pursuit than a convo? so??????


Peace ya?ll, ONE. mo? time

[Maqari]

:D  :D  :D , C'mon admin !!!!!!  talk about censorship !!!!! who says P?nis is a curse word? I cant believe ya'll altered that ?????????? I think we are all adults in here right ?  :D  :D  :D  :D this beats me. Hey I challenge that. I want my rights to self expression  :lol:  :lol: I meen ya'll need to take things in context.  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:


I think the word "thingy" is much more vulgar than "P?nis"  :lol:  :lol:  :lol: