Father kills daughter; doubted virginity

NewEte · January 30, 2007, 03:35:14 PM

In reference to Alkanawi's response, honor killing has infact been recorded in all those places you mentioned, and Nigeria (an OIC member) is no exception. Honor practice is even reported to have occured in recent times in Europe, but in Muslim communities of Europe. In regards to Jordan not being a 'true' Islamic country, I think that's disrespecting Jordan right there. The argument sounds like a excuse for what happened and it also sounds like denial for the motivating factor for these killings. More recently, there has been an attempt at political correctness by the media by not specifically devulging the religious background of the individuals guilty of this ritual. I think the author Syed Mirza point addressed this in his/her writing.

I am not sure how Reverand Kings comes into this equation however. If this is a comparison, it confuses me. For one, Nigeria is not a Christian nation. It is rumoured to be an Islamic nation. The law of the land is the constitution and in some cases, Sharia. Reverend King was undoubtedly a perverted psycho who managed somehow to corn some very gullible people into believing that he infact was a church minister. Based on some testimony that emerged from his trial, any right thinking person would know right away that everything about that guy was wrong. A female witness testified that she used to serve the Rev. naked and perform sexual acts together with him. My question to these people would be, shouldn't the appearance of any inappropriate behavior be a red flag right away? Furthermore, if some of these victims actually read their Bibles or understood anything about their christian tradition, there is no way on earth, they should have been fooled by that mad man because nothing in the Christian Bible supports any of the improper events that took place in that church.

But here is the thing, the irresponsibility of King caused the deaths of some people, and for that, he was arrested, charged, tried, and sentenced to death. So there is punishment for irresponsible behavior in this case. But going back to honor killings in Islamic nations, guilty persons in this crime, simply walk free.

If you check the Jordanian constitution, article 2, it says "Islam is the religion of the state, and Arabic is the official language".
Article 28 subsection (e) states; No person shall ascend the throne unless he is a Moslem.

This all sounds like a very Islamic country to me. Now, Alkawani, you have tried to diss Jordan as some watered down moslem country not to be taken seriously, but some people here have said that Islam is all encompassing and so complete such that there is no doubt about anything. So there is no doubt that Jordan is a real Islamic nation. So my question stands, why does the honor killing (a heathen practice as described by Husnaa) still has root in societies where Islam is dominant and complete? Can the government not pass a law to ban such practice and proscribe very stiff penalties for those who violate that law?

HUSNAA · January 30, 2007, 06:52:58 PM

Ete, who ever wrote that article is not a muslim. He is just posing as a muslim so that the article wont be regarded as another instance of islamophobia by non muslims, but he's totally confused the issue.

Honor killing has nothing to do with Islam. It is part of the cultural mores of the societies that practice it. Like I pointed out earlier, killing females was a pre Islamic phenomenon, and even this mirza gulam who ever (probably a kadiyani) has pointed that out. So it is rather contradictory of him to say honor killings have silent support from islam.

Honor killings usually occur in the rural areas of these countries where the ppl are illiterate and ignorant of both Islamic teachings and western philosophical thinking and where the modern world has not trickled down into their psyche, even if the modern world is part of their daily lives. If you research carefully Ete, you will find that the practice does not occur amongst well educated muslims, and by well educated, I mean those who are well learned in the religion of Islam, who know what Islam is and what it isnt.
Myself is trying to point out that christians and muslims alike and others partake in ritual killings even though they know that it is neither islamic nor christian, yet they do it. But no one by extension labels the practice as either Christian or Islamic, so why do u persist in trying to link Islam with honor killings?

NewEte · January 30, 2007, 08:18:25 PM

Husnna ok, why isn't this practice banned outrightly? This is really my concern. It is not about indicting Islam. Can a supreme head in these societies not order an injuction banning this practise? Is this an unreasonable thing to hope for?

HUSNAA · January 31, 2007, 05:13:16 AM

Old habits die hard Ete. This is something that has been happening probably silently in obscure areas which if it hadnt been for the advent of the internet, cable television and the decentralization of media outlets, we will never have got to know about, because they are not the general run of events in the countries that they occur. They are random incidences which are given a lot of news coverage because they are novel and exotic strange and grotesque to the western world.
There is no need for a supreme head to give an injunction because the injunction is already there in the Qur'an, that one should not one's female daughters, or kill anyone at all without just cause. All these ppl need is to be more educated in the religion that is all.

MySeLf · February 01, 2007, 02:16:59 PM

Quote from: NewEte on January 30, 2007, 01:53:39 PM
Please permit me to just post this article authored by Syed Kamran Mirza. This is not my article, lest I be accused of plagiarism. So for the record, this is a report on the subject of the discourse. The views expressed here ae not mine but those of Syed Kamran Mirza. You can find the entire article in this link;

http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMirza/honor_killing.htm

Ete after following ur web link, is now clear where you are getting your prejudice
ideas about islam and muslim.

Totally anti islamic site, purely set up to slander islam and muslim......
What do you expect from your enemy mr ete?
They claimed to be ex muslims, but for sure they are not, they are just
wearing a mask and claiming muslims names.

If you are that curious about this fascinating religion and want to know the truth
then forget about the cultures, the political issues and theses muslims who are
trying to defend themselves with no weapons and no accurate target and
read the Qur'an very carefully and the 40 hadith.
That what islam is all about, any practice which is not mentioned is the qur'an
then don't call it Islam, and anything confusing ask a scholar for clarification....
You may be amaze with ur finding mr ete.
I here include a website that may interest you, it was set up by Sheik Yusuf Estes,
an american who was once a priest.
You can get the entire qur'an in plain english there and also the 40 hadith.

http://www.islamtomorrow.com/
http://www.islamalways.com/

alkanawi · February 01, 2007, 05:06:47 PM

Myself kin yi kokari.If Ete does not really harbour any prejudice against a certain belief he should go to those sites with an open mind and we would be ready to discuss anything he wants.Amma ke ki ka kula shi ma.Maganinsa "kunnen uwar shegu".

lionger · February 05, 2007, 07:48:12 PM

Ete why post an article from an obviously anti-Islamic site, to prove your point on an Islamic forum? What a self-defeating move, what kind of response were you expecting? Surely not objective debate; it is more likely to provoke and anger Muslims whether there was actual truth in the article or not.

Myself, I browsed briefly through the Islam Tomorrow you provided. Quite some interesting material in there. Most Islamic websites I've visited have a section on Christianity and the Bible and I'm often disappointed at the shoddy level of Bible scholarship. I thought this site might be different given that Yusuf Estes was a former Christian minister, but again I was disappointed. I read an article on the site called 'Bible Compared to the Quran' written by Estes and Gary Miller - another former Christian preacher - and it contains in some cases very sloppy Bible research and a complete misunderstanding of Christian arguments. For people that were former preachers of the Bible, their arguments were rudimentary and very poor.

This is a bit of an aside, but I think it is high time Muslims started reading the Bible for themselves and not solely through the eyes of supposed Muslim Bible 'scholars' such as the above. Read their work if you like, but also read the Bible for yourself and see if what they say is true. Too many people do just the former and swallow their arguments hook, line and sinker, without doing adequate original research themselves. I have noticed that Barde and Waziri have been obviously guilty of this error, in my discussions with them. It's not good enough guys! If Ete's tactics really irk you then ensure that you are not making the same mistake about other faiths.

NewEte · February 06, 2007, 12:05:57 AM

Lionger, I don't know why you are advicing people to read the Bible themselves. That's a dangerous proposition. Walid Shoebat, an ex-palestinian terrorist, made that mistake, and look at him now. He became a Christian and now appears on T.V , especially FOX, to speak negatively about his former beliefs, especially what he calls the lies that palestinians tell concerning their claims to Jerusalem. I think this dude even wrote a book.

Then there is that Bridgette Gabriel, a former Lebanese Muslim who did the same thing. She read the Bible. Now, she can't keep her mouth shut anymore....talking all over the place against Arabs. The way she carries on, you'd think she was a Jew.

Well, anyone that take you up on the offer had better be ready. They just might get what they weren't bargaining for.

MySeLf · February 06, 2007, 01:50:38 PM

Off the hook mr lionger!
This topic is not Christianity vs. Islam
or Christians vs. muslims, neither it is Qur'an vs.the bible.
Such topic will not be allowed here anyway.

Back to the topic which is islam, muslims, and honor killing, which your
brother ete is so desperate to find out why such thing happening in
the muslims community.
We try but failed to convince him, therefore the only place he can
find out the truth is the Holy Qur'an.
The unchanged Qur'an is one and only guide to entire muslims nation......
if you have doubt about any muslims action then read the qur'an. Is the
best place to find out not kano online.
I still hope he will go and read it for better understanding of islam
and the muslims.

We question nothing about anyone faith, therefore we need not to read
anyone book.
Everyone have the right to practice what he believe and we are suppose
to respect one another.

And Ete....... You got that from your Anti islamic web site which is
of course not true.
What do you expect from your enemy?

Dan-Borno · February 06, 2007, 02:33:36 PM

Hey hey guys, i have been absent for some days, and it seems the house is in a face-off: this issue is very simple, and i think we should all understand ourselves better.

lionger · February 06, 2007, 03:20:15 PM

Yes Myself the subject isn't about Christianity or the Bible; that's why I said my point was besides the main issue, though still important. And btw, such posts are allowed here; haven't you seen the debate I had with Waziri over the Bible a few months ago? Admin did not shut any of them down...

About honor killings: My opinion is that this largely occurs in certain Muslim and Arab societies in the Middle East and beyond. It is a serious probem in Pakistan, for instance. In addition to the ignorance of the perpetrators, the crass complacency of the governments of these countries is also chiefly responsible for the continued existence of this practice.