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Re: North's vicious circle of Poverty

Started by _Waziri_, August 06, 2008, 01:33:30 PM

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HUSNAA

Nura, da alama dai u really want to argue for the sake of argument.
Define the following:
1) those not professionally working.
2) have legal tender... what's that (if u are not referring to a document)?

BTW, location strictly speaking is not a parameter for deciding who is or isnt in the middle class category. That is why one can live in a village and still be middle class.
The parameter I used is one's economic earning power. I think I made that clear in my statement. Dave has given a fair assessment of who is and isnt considered middle class. What I added to that is that its the amount of money that u earn that puts you in that category despite being in what are considered the middle class professions. In fact  such earning capacities are inherent  or supposed to be inherent in these professions and that is why one can consider one a middle class citizen if one holds down such jobs. However what we have witnessed in Nigeria is that this is not really the case, if we consider the earning capacity of some, like teachers for example. You can hardly regard a teacher as enjoying a middle class life when a headmaster earns an annual salary of less than N 200,000.

Well if u expected cogent explanations from what Waziri posted then keep looking or expecting, I am sure eventually someone will satisfy yr olympian expectations. On the other hand, since we seemed to have come up short in yr estimation, why dont u oblige us with the explanations. You can only be disappointed by our responses if u yrself know what they should be. So instead of criticizing, why dont u write them down so we can all benefit.
PS u have to come down to our level from yr olympian heights though.
Ghafurallahi lana wa lakum

Nuruddeen

Quote from: HUSNAA on September 04, 2008, 07:00:26 PM
Nura, da alama dai u really want to argue for the sake of argument.
Define the following:
1) those not professionally working.
2) have legal tender... what's that (if u are not referring to a document)?

BTW, location strictly speaking is not a parameter for deciding who is or isnt in the middle class category. That is why one can live in a village and still be middle class.
The parameter I used is one's economic earning power. I think I made that clear in my statement. Dave has given a fair assessment of who is and isnt considered middle class. What I added to that is that its the amount of money that u earn that puts you in that category despite being in what are considered the middle class professions. In fact  such earning capacities are inherent  or supposed to be inherent in these professions and that is why one can consider one a middle class citizen if one holds down such jobs. However what we have witnessed in Nigeria is that this is not really the case, if we consider the earning capacity of some, like teachers for example. You can hardly regard a teacher as enjoying a middle class life when a headmaster earns an annual salary of less than N 200,000.

Well if u expected cogent explanations from what Waziri posted then keep looking or expecting, I am sure eventually someone will satisfy yr olympian expectations. On the other hand, since we seemed to have come up short in yr estimation, why dont u oblige us with the explanations. You can only be disappointed by our responses if u yrself know what they should be. So instead of criticizing, why dont u write them down so we can all benefit.
PS u have to come down to our level from yr olympian heights though.


"The key to a middle class existence  is economic, GGNK. The professions that make up a middle class society: doctors lawyers teachers for example, go hand in hand with excellent remunerations and a good earning power, that enables u to live in the middle class societal zone. If you dont have that economic power, you can call yrself middle class but you wont be living the middle class life even if u are employed as a doctor, or lecturer or teacher or whatever other profession that should put you in that category".
[/quote]


Let me take you by your words my dear. In the above quoted post you said "The professions that make up a middle class society: doctors lawyers teachers for example, go hand in hand with excellent remunerations and a good earning power, that enables u to live in the middle class societal zone".

But I asked: what of those that are not profesionally working? I mean those that are not doctors, lawyers or teachers. Because you were busy listing people who are educated and are professionals. That is why I said what about those people in the village who have legal tender (money) but are not working professionals? I think you owe me an answer here my dear Husnaa. And I am happy you provided thus "...location strictly speaking is not a parameter for deciding who is or isnt in the middle class category. That is why one can live in a village and still be middle class".

I quite disagree with your own understanding of a middle class categorisation  in Nigeria. I argued inter alia that what we have in Nigeria are the "Haves" and "Have-nots" i.e the poor and the rich. The so-called middle class that you are telling us are virtually non-existent in today's Nigeria. I mean by definition they exist but  practically are phased out from Nigeria's economic scheme of thing. Hope am understood?

However, I asked you and am still gonna ask ab ini tio that : what parameter did you used in giving example  that doctors, lawyers, and teachers are middle class? What of if their salaries cannot meet up with their insatiable needs and demands? For instance if the so-called "excellent remuneration" cannot give them what they want.

I think if you don't know what you are saying is better to get informed. So let me come down to your level as demanded.

What is lacking in your own analysis is that the so-called middle class that you are talking about comprise both the working and non-working classes. We have people in the village that are qualified to be middle class even though not working. The ones that you have listed are the working class citizens i.e the lawyers, doctors and whatever.

My bone of contention is: I don't think its only doctors or lawyers that constitute middle class in Nigeria. There are thousands in the village who live average life and are by implication qualified to be amongst the middle class.


On the issue of parameter, I think where you goofed is: for one to judge whether one is a middle, lower or upper class, there is need to revisit your ordinary level economics very well; not just making statements that are unfounded.

I think we can judge one's class i.e poor, rich or middle by the following economic parameters:

1. The per capita income of individuals in society. The level of one's earnings-be it per head or cumulative.

2. Marginal propensity to consume vis-a-vis level of spending, earning power(as assserted by you), disposable and taxable incomes and so on and so forth.

Others are: National Income-out of which you get the GDPs, GNPs, NNI etc.

These I think determines one's status in society. They are also used determine not only individual'a but also country's economic progression and depression.


They indeed determine whether a country is operating a mercantile capitalistism or social economy; depending on the centrality or specificity of economic control. For example, one can deduce whether few individuals or majority have power or say in an economy. In Nigeria, I don't have to tell you which is which, because as far as I am concerned its an economy in transition where majority of the citizen are living amidst plenty.Nonetheless, very few are controlling the economy. Some analyst prefer to call and analyse the concept of this econometrics as political economy.



I apologise for engaging you this far. But honestly,  I did not intend to drag you much on this, because it is a total derailment from the initial matter under consideration i.e POVERTY(laughs).

I remain your best friend Nura.
o try and fail is atleast to learn. That will save one the inestimable loss of what might have been (positive or negative).

HUSNAA

(Sigh)
I'm not sure if I am NOT speaking dutch to you Nuruddeen.
But never mind, enough of this argument, its not fruitful.
BTW we are not derailing from the main point we are just at a tangent with it
Ghafurallahi lana wa lakum

Dave_McEwan_Hill

As I suggested earlier class is a little difficult to define and isn't entirely about money. For instance a market trader may become very rich but will never be considered upper class and is not sure even to be considered middle class and is more likely to be considered always lower class. The next generation of his family may move socially upwards however.
On the other hand a traditional ruler may in fact be materially fairly poor but is always likely to be considered upper class.
Middle class is a combination of responsible behaviour, decent manners, adequate education, adequate financial situation, sensible and responsible employment and usually ambition to become upper class( which the real upper classes find amusing to watch)
maigemu

Dan-Borno

Nura, you have succeded in confusion us gaba daya.
if at all the examples provided by your dear husnaa
on middle class is incorrect, we await your example
of a middle class in the present day nigeria?

"My mama always used to tell me: 'If you can't find somethin' to live for, you best find somethin' to die for" - Tupak

HUSNAA

#50
Quote from: Dan-Borno on September 05, 2008, 10:51:27 PM
Nura, you have succeded in confusion us gaba daya.
if at all the examples provided by your dear husnaa
on middle class is incorrect, we await your example
of a middle class in the present day nigeria?

DB thanks for the support. Nura is so implacable.

Quote from: Dave_McEwan_Hill on September 05, 2008, 08:49:56 PM
As I suggested earlier class is a little difficult to define and isn't entirely about money. For instance a market trader may become very rich but will never be considered upper class and is not sure even to be considered middle class and is more likely to be considered always lower class. The next generation of his family may move socially upwards however.
On the other hand a traditional ruler may in fact be materially fairly poor but is always likely to be considered upper class.
Middle class is a combination of responsible behaviour, decent manners, adequate education, adequate financial situation, sensible and responsible employment and usually ambition to become upper class( which the real upper classes find amusing to watch)

I think that the definition is slightly different for different cultures. For example what you described is a   typical British or western middle class society, where manners are all part of the package, i.e. how you eat how you speak, which part of the town you reside in and all that.

But I still maintain that in a place like Nigeria for instance where a person from childhood has had a typical village life but managed to become educated and get a professional job, then he obviously transits into the middle class category by virtue of the different lifestyle that he may begin to enjoy due to his new found economic freedom and his totally different outlook on life as opposed to one who is not western educated.
On the other hand,  one might hold a professional job like lawyer or journalist or doctor and still have low earning capacity in our dear Nigeria. So while he still regards himself as  middle class by virtue of all that education and perspective on life, he enjoys a less than middle class lifestyle especially in our societies where a man tends to burden himself with the cares and travails of others besides himself and his immediate family.


Ghafurallahi lana wa lakum

Nuruddeen

Quote from: HUSNAA on September 05, 2008, 05:04:26 PM
(Sigh)
I'm not sure if I am NOT speaking dutch to you Nuruddeen.
But never mind, enough of this argument, its not fruitful.
BTW we are not derailing from the main point we are just at a tangent with it

Is alright my dear.

I think we better put an end to the debate. However, it is important to define the concept of the middle class in toto eventhough you hypothetically said what you wrote was in tandem with Waziri's initial thread.

The Middle class are people that are increasingly squeezed by sagging incomes and soaring expenses.
They are the ones whose  median household income dropped .At the same time, the average family is spending more on basic expenses, such as firewood, kerosene, housing, food, education and health .
My dear Husnaa they are families with children who saw their child care costs soar. To cover these soaring expenses, many have had to turn their meager earnings into consumption. Nearly 60% of their total disposable income goes to paying off their daily expenses.

There have never been meaningful attempts by Nigeria's government to salvage their own situation since the depression of their economic status. So many families including those in the village are standing right on the edge. They have been cut down in every discretionary spending area they possibly can.
Their standard of living is tearing a hole in the family that they simply can't make up.
Indeed, they are the ones who experience the impact of rising costs, unemployment and stagnant wages on the economy.
Though there  is a silent cry going out as middle class families begin to talk about how to pay and cater for their daily demands, which is geometrically increasing day in day out.
Husnaa, it is important to know and appreciate the fact that the middle class families are the engine of our economy, but their earning power and economic security has actually declined in the last fifteen years. Though Nigerian lawmakers focused their questions on comparing the great strides made in productivity with stagnation of wages, unemployment, and social insecurity, but middle class of those days contribute largely to productivity.
Nonetheless, increasing economic inequality is to blame the country's economic policy. While the middle class is contributing to productivity, the rewards are increasingly going to the wealthy.
That is why  David Kreutzer, senior policy analyst for the more conservative Heritage Foundation, said it's more accurate to follow the wages of actual workers over time, or income per head, but not to compare the median wage figure.
To help these struggling class ther is the need to funnel funds to the state, particularly for infrastructure projects. This could serve as an important source for much-needed jobs.
Smartly crafted, David averred that the middle class has the potential to help generate more economic growth until the imbalances and necessary corrections in key markets play themselves out.
Hear him:
"Infrastructure investment serves a dual role of deepening investments in public capital while creating good jobs for people that might otherwise be un- or underemployed."
High fuel and food costs, coupled with miniscule raises and shrinking home values, led more people to say that their personal finances have worsened than at any time since early 80s.
The future looks grim to them, too. Three-quarter of those surveyed said they expected the nation's economic troubles to continue over the next year, the highest level since 1980. They predict the unemployment rate will jump at unprecedented rate.
Looking at government statistics, however, things don't look that dire, which is one reason why economists are dickering over whether the country is in a recession or boom. Unemployment is at a relatively higher point and inflation is running at a greater pace.
Most experts are predicting more bad times ahead, but there's still no consensus on whether the economy is going to do good than harm.
Hoyt of Economy.com argues that every income strata is feeling it.
Hear him:
"The wealthy are hurting from the roiling stock market, the middle class from falling home prices and working folks from rising prices".
Husnaa, folks are having considerable difficulty making their personal family budgets given their pay and prices, because the prices they face most commonly in day-to-day life are rising faster than both inflation and their meager earnings.
Their investment portfolios aren't doing well, either.
All this financial stress comes at a time when Nigerians are living amidst plenty. This is sad!
So you can't be sure you know exactly where we are or where we're going. Middle and lower class consumers are afraid that the light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train.
But the cardinal question here is: What will we do now Husnaa?
o try and fail is atleast to learn. That will save one the inestimable loss of what might have been (positive or negative).

gogannaka

Let me go off topic a bit.

Quote from: HusnaaI have actually read a document which was part of some declassified information from the CIA archives, running riot on the internet. They were sent to me by my brother who made a conscientious effort to print the whole and mail them to me back in  the mid 1990s.

Were they the documents that implicated even Obasanjo? The ones that showed his close relationship with the likes of Henry Kissinger and the CIA?

Is it available on the net now?
Surely after suffering comes enjoyment

Nuruddeen

Quote from: gogannaka on September 07, 2008, 08:55:43 PM
Let me go off topic a bit.

YOU ALWAYS PARAMBULATE BY GOING OFF TOPIC.

Were they the documents that implicated even Obasanjo? The ones that showed his close relationship with the likes of Henry Kissinger and the CIA?

Is it available on the net now?

GOGANNAKA, DO YOU LIKE IT?  I CAN GIVE YOU IF U WANT TO C.
o try and fail is atleast to learn. That will save one the inestimable loss of what might have been (positive or negative).

Dan-Borno

"My mama always used to tell me: 'If you can't find somethin' to live for, you best find somethin' to die for" - Tupak

Tukurtukur

Leadership is the bane of the north.  The north can be turned around for the better through individual and collective responsibility at the states and local govts levels.