Author Topic: puzzling  (Read 33269 times)

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Offline Fulanizzle

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puzzling
« on: September 11, 2002, 01:44:16 AM »
Salamu alaikum wa rahmatullah Tala wa barkatu
-------------------------------------------------------
 ?Alot has been going round about Amina Lawal...

There is a lot to that issue..but what puzzles me most is that whyyyyyy in the world would there be any ?argument ?or doubt ?if the man is the father ?of Amina's child. ???? ??? ??? !!!!!!!!!!!!!
HELLOOOOOO we are in like what?? ? the year 2002.........right..... and there is a little something we call a BLOOD TEST!!!

The child is there, the mother is there, and an accused man is there and let the blood tests begin...
 ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

And personally, i dont think this story ?is as big as Safiya's case...

but i have a feeling a guilty man is being laid off so easily....but only Allah Subhana wa ta'ala knows....




Oh, and here is a lesson for yall ?girls out there....."See, a man can get away with it and but the girl is being left behind pregnant ?and ?there is just no way to run from it and ofcourse the destruction of the girl's life proceeds.... :o :o :o :o :o :o :o


LESSON: Mata kama kan ku sosai!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-X


May Allah be with us all; girls and boys, ladies and men...and guide us the right way.....Insha Allah Amin.... :D :D :D



"




 ?
)

Anonymous

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Re: puzzling
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2002, 09:10:38 PM »
Fulanicious

Sure there are things like blood tests, although a genetic fingerprinting using DNA would be more accurate (but the State cannot afford it). However, that is not the issue. Amina admitted to having committed the act. The FACT that she gave birth to baby means SOMEONE also is responsible. This is enough to establish that SOMETHING had indeed taken place. However, for her to be punished, 4 WITNESSES must have seen the act DURING COMMISSION, not AFTER! So she is NOT GUILTY at all. For her to be punished, her guilt must be established DE JEURE, not DE FACTO.

Abdalla






Quote

Salamu alaikum wa rahmatullah Tala wa barkatu
-------------------------------------------------------
 ?Alot has been going round about Amina Lawal...

There is a lot to that issue..but what puzzles me most is that whyyyyyy in the world would there be any ?argument ?or doubt ?if the man is the father ?of Amina's child. ???? ??? ??? !!!!!!!!!!!!!
HELLOOOOOO we are in like what?? ? the year 2002.........right..... and there is a little something we call a BLOOD TEST!!!

The child is there, the mother is there, and an accused man is there and let the blood tests begin...
 ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

And personally, i dont think this story ?is as big as Safiya's case...

but i have a feeling a guilty man is being laid off so easily....but only Allah Subhana wa ta'ala knows....




Oh, and here is a lesson for yall ?girls out there....."See, a man can get away with it and but the girl is being left behind pregnant ?and ?there is just no way to run from it and ofcourse the destruction of the girl's life proceeds.... :o :o :o :o :o :o :o


LESSON: Mata kama kan ku sosai!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-X


May Allah be with us all; girls and boys, ladies and men...and guide us the right way.....Insha Allah Amin.... :D :D :D



"




 ?


Anonymous

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Re: puzzling - link to clear things up!
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2002, 09:19:51 PM »
Oops, forgot to include this link

http://www.nigerdeltacongress.com/articles/amina_lawal.htm

It is a brilliant article by Sunusi Lamido about Amina Lawan (not Lawal) who defended Safiya when she fell in the same spot last year.

Abdalla


Quote
Fulanicious

Sure there are things like blood tests, although a genetic fingerprinting using DNA would be more accurate (but the State cannot afford it). However, that is not the issue. Amina admitted to having committed the act. The FACT that she gave birth to baby means SOMEONE also is responsible. This is enough to establish that SOMETHING had indeed taken place. However, for her to be punished, 4 WITNESSES must have seen the act DURING COMMISSION, not AFTER! So she is NOT GUILTY at all. For her to be punished, her guilt must be established DE JEURE, not DE FACTO.

Abdalla








Anonymous

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Re: puzzling
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2002, 11:13:19 PM »
Assalamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullah wa barakatuh,
There is so much imporatance attached to this case, when this is a straight devine law and it is not subject to any logic. Most of all, no religion, be it Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc and no righteous society condons adultry or fornication. Is the Western press that is making so much fuss about this case saying that it has lost all moral values, and that it now condons adulery and fornication? Are there not more important issues to write about in Nigeria, like such social ills as illeteracy, unemployment, poverty, epidemics and many others?
The subject matter here is that Amina is an illeterate, and therefore does not even understand the Islamic Shari'ah law. She confessed herself that she committed adultery, and therefore the judges had no option than to interprete the law. She had a choice to deny, and therefore the burden of proof will be turned on the prosecution if she knew the law, and that way, nobody will be able to prove that she committed the act because there will be no evidence, and the pregnancy will now go to her former husband since she had it less than two years after the divorce.
The man denied sleeping with her and therefore turned the burden of proof to the prosecution, and the prosecution could prove no case against him, and the judges had no option but to discharge and acquit him.
I sincerely advise all those lawyers and human rights activists to therefore go and be more educated about Islamic law, and stop making unnecessary fuss about non issues. They can still advise the lady to deny her confession at the appeal court, and therefore turn the burden of proof to the prosecution, only that the case here will be that Amina will have to be ready to swear to the Holy Qur'an (like the accused man did), that she did not commit adultery.
This is a much better option for her dischsrge and acquital rather than all the unnecessary noise in the press.
Assalamu alaikum,
Ali Magashi.

Offline admin

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Re: puzzling
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2002, 03:08:16 AM »
Salamu alaikum;

Thanks to everyone for contributing to this topic. Below is the response received from Sanusi Lamido regarding this topic:

Quote
Many thanks,
interesting discussion,particularly the comment by Ali Magashi.
It is interesting that only those who wish to convict a suspect are
"knowledgeable" about Islamic Law but not those who obey the prophetic
injunction to seek relief for Muslims wherever they may be from the hadd.

I have made the argument again and again and I stand to be corrected.
In Maliki law a child born to a divorcee within 5 years of divorce belongs
to the husband unless he denies it. It stands to reason that a child
presumed to be a legitimate offspring of marriage cannot at the same time be
the evidence for fornication.
There is no record that Amina's husband rejected the child.
There is no source in shariah that gives anyone the right to interrogate a
woman in Amina's situation about the source of her pregnancy-innocence is
presumed. So her "confession" on this ultra vires interrogation is
meaningless and to no legal effect.
The only other way she could be convicted is through 4 eye witnesses who do
not exist.
The state had no case from the beginning, the judge had no right to
entertain it and those who brought the charge should be tried for slander.
This is Islamic law. It is not enough to denounce application of rationality
to law and indeed not proper because it suggests that thge law is contrary
to logic and common intelliegence wal iyadhu billah.
In any case we never learn. The issue of safiya was so flogged with abuses
and insults and in the end the Appeal court ruled that the judge was in
error on many counts of law and procedure.
In Amina's case, the surprise to me is that the appeal judge said she had no
right to withdraw her confession. Every student of elementary islamic law
knows that in matters of hadd-except the hadd of qadhf or slander- a Muslim
is free to withdraw confession at any time including during punishment. In
the case of zina the text of the mukhtasar is explicit- "zina can be
established by a confession once, except if withdrawn in any manner or if
the confessor runs away even if during hadd." this is the text of the
mukhtasar.
At the end of the day those who judge their piety by the number of hands
amputated and women stoned will do what they like.
Al that we can do is say it and say it again that this is not Allah's law.
I challenge anyone to give me a source-no matter how weak, for asking a
divorcee who delivers within gestation the source of her pregnancy. Over to
those who are experts in Islamic law!On the contrary when a man came to Umar
to report an unmarried woman who was pregnant 'Umar chased him away- and
this is in the Musannaf of Abdul Razzaq.
After the sokoto jihad it was 100 years before the white man came. In that
century only one woman was stoned for adultery and she had reported herself
repeatedly to Sutan Bello. He asked her to go and deliver, then go and wean
etc exactly as the prophet did with the ghamidite.
For us however we started shariah two years ago and have already sentenced 5
people to rajm and amputated God knows how many arms. Is this evidence of
Shariah or lack of it?

I apologise if I offend any sensibilities but I have a little time on my
hands so I went into detail.
Sanusi


Kaini Kano ko a buhun barkono!!!

Anonymous

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Re: puzzling
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2002, 11:39:38 AM »
Assalamu Alaykum

I have been following the debates about Amina Lawal's adultery case. It is very interesting to note that a lot of people have just metamorphosed into experts on Islamic Law and Jurispudence. It is noteworthy however that the interest so generated has helped in educating me and encouraging me to learn more about Shari'a. I dont know whether it is profer but I'll like to use this forum to extend my thanks to Sunusi L. Sunusi for his articles which have been extremely educating and provoking.

In respect to Amina Lawal I believe Sunusi is right, according to the Malikiyya any child born by a divorsee belongs to her former husband if she's not been divorced for up to 5 years unless it is proven that she is an adulterer, and if the Sharia we are practicing is based on the Maliki School of thought Amina Lawan can only be stonned if there are four witnesses that are qualified to give evidence in shariah that have seen her commits the act and have seen penetration.

Let's hope the upper court will look at this side of the argument as from every tradition of the Holy Prophet it is not desirable to condemn without absolute proof or confession.

And to digress a little to Safiya's Roman citizenship, I think if there is anybody that deserves award in respect of that case it's the Upper Shari'a Court Judges in Sokoto who prved to the world that Shari'ah Law is just and fair and not harsh and primitive as the west claims or is claiming.

May Allah guide us guard us from the devil and forgive our sins.

Wassalam Alaikum

Offline Fulanizzle

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Re: puzzling
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2002, 01:34:43 PM »
Salamu alaikum.....

....the western media should stay out of these cases...trying to mortify the sharia reputation practiced in the Northern Nigeria...i am soooo sick and tired of seeing ?Amina's case being soooo stressed on CNN !!!!!!!!!!!! :o :o :o :o :o

plus the Italian citizenship ?that Safiya got is just irrational...strongly agreeing with what someone mentioned here earlier. :o :o :o

And yeah, it is also deplorable to think that in Safiya's case ?lutta lawyers from the western world tried to interfere.... its simply unacceptable !!!

May Allah continue to guide us and be with us...AMIN
)

Anonymous

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Re: puzzling
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2002, 05:41:37 PM »
Assalamu Alaikum,

One of the five major reasons of Shari?a in Islamic societies in entirety is to protect people's genealogy Nasab. It tries to make sure that a child has been proven to be legitimately sired, for if not, the child will continue to live a life with his personality permanently indicted. That is why Shari?a dwells a lot on issues regarding divorce and pregnancy. The waiting time, months or period, iddah within which it will be clearly certain if a woman is not pregnant after divorce have been stipulated in the Qur?an. (Surat al- Dalaq please) Shari?a has even gone to the extent of telling us not to send divorced women away until they exhausted this period iddah after which it will be absolutely certain(even in modern medicine and whatever) as to whether she is pregnant or not (Surat al Dalaq). In the case of Amina Lawal or Lawan she has already exhausted that period iddah after which no any story about pregnancy came up.  Later, after two concrete years, she came with a child, it is said that under Maliki law, Sharia cannot convict her because the child might belong to her former husband. Okay, agreed, but she went a head to confess to their village head and to multitude of people that the child is a product of an illegitimate relationship. The village head couldn?t do anything but to report her to authorities since the genealogy for the child was at the risk of being maligned. Here these words: they did not report her accusing her of committing adultery but because the circumstance was a puzzle to them, and they felt only a court of law can solve it. There at the court this lady confessed again that she has committed the abominable act. The judge tried to save her by creating excuses for her in a polite way(according to a friend whom I seconded to follow the case for me through the Hausa Magazine programme Jakar Mogori by FRCN Kaduna) but she iterated and reiterated that the child is not legitimately sired. Now Sanusi Lamido Sanusi, if you were the judge what would you have done?

Remember, genealogy is one of the main things that Shari?a came to protect and Islam is built on the philosophy of life that demands that we trust people and take them by their words until they prove otherwise, not cynicism of the western world, which demands that we don?t trust them until they prove trustworthy. That was why the other man, I mean the accomplice in Amina?s case has to be acquitted and she, be convicted.

And added to this, what does Shari?a suggests in a situation where we have children of questionable ancestry? Does it demand that we ask the bearers of such children to explain or we should just leave them which will lead the entire community to be gossiping, denying them this and that, just because they have speculative ancestry?  

Finally, I think and strongly believe that our intellectual giants today are in the position faith-wise and intellect ?wise to sit down and come-up with a very comprehensive Fiqh . The ability to do ijtihaad is not and has never been an absolute prerogative of Malik, Abu Hanifah, Ibn Taimiyyah or any other highly revered person. At the risk of being immodest I will say, I think the books read by people like Sanusi could be larger in volume than those read by Malik and other revered scholars our much ?glorified? past. And on the level of piety I believe it is only Allah can judge.    :o Ma?assalam

Ibraheem A. Waziri

Offline revo34

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Re: puzzling
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2002, 02:25:28 AM »
Asalam Alaikun,
    I believe this will also teach ??? alot of boys and girls that they need to abide with the Law  stated by Almight ALLAH cos that is the bests way of life that ALLAH as stated for us.
Now Imagine ::) if not for now adays that nudity is not checked by most community . If it were to be, She is already a shame to her Home , community and state. cos no man in a well islam cultured society will feel free to marry from that community cos .(I know u understand what I mean :-[).

One more thing that trouble me is the Roman's invitation for her to be an honourary citizen.

May ALLAH help us all cos this world of now adays is that of the (end of days).


And here I am just starting with this generation
 :o :-[ :'(

ALLAHU HAFIS

Masalam
EVOLUTION TIME as it's time for change

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Re: puzzling
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2002, 01:01:45 AM »
Assalam,

I believed every one will agree with me that we are just embrassing ourselves over this Sharia thing, slowly but surely the enemies of Islam are being vindicated that ours is a political Sharia and would " soon fizzle away" if Amina Lawal is eventually let off the hook, the whole thing has certainly become a big joke. Evidently it shows that we have not done our homework well before implemeting the Sharia system in our states, it shows that we do not have judges qualified in Islamic jurisprudence to man the courts and these would expose us to ridicule.
On the Italian citizenship to Safiya, it is just theatretics, for pray,tell, in what way would Italian honorary citizenship benefit Safiya? the only disturbing thing about the event is the role played by our own Aishatu Ismail, the minister for women affairs in in going out of her way to bundle and send  Safiya to Italy to receive an award aimed at riduculing Muslims and Islam, yet her father is one of the respected Ulamas in Kano ( Albasa bata yi halin ruwa ba) :(
May Allah continue to protect us from the evil machinations of the enemies of Islam.
Many salaams
Magaji Galadima
galamag@yahoo.com

Offline Fulanizzle

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Re: puzzling
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2002, 01:11:09 AM »
Salamu alaikum :D

   lol, just to think of what was previously mentioned ""On the Italian citizenship to Safiya, it is just theatretics, for pray, tell, in what way would Italian honorary citizenship benefit Safiya?""

 lol, its true...the Italian citizenship won't  benefit her for half a second... for one, I don?t think she completed her secondary school...she hardly speaks good English...not to talk of Italian...the place will just be an queer and different atmosphere to her.....she will be extremely alienated.....i just know that no responsible Nigerian that knows how to speak Hausa will even go close to her in Italy...man...she will wish she was back in the village  doing "tuka tuwo"    ;D  

  oh well.....the whole point here is that she will put herself in a worse situation for accepting the Italian citizenship....for one she  dishonored the  Hausa/ Fulani/Muslim /Nigerians.... :-/ >:( :-X :-[ :'(

  just a thought, people...didn?t mean to go too far...if i did, please pardon me.......

May Allah be with us................AMIN
)

Anonymous

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Re: puzzling
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2002, 01:34:03 AM »
um....hullo!! ;D abdalla!!!......hey!...the court can go to a simple secondary school and perform the blood test... so...me i no undastand whish one be..."cant afford it".... :-/

Anonymous

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excuzeee moi
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2002, 01:36:03 AM »
sorry... i neva greet ya'll wit' asalam alaykum...

AS SALAM ALAYKUM :D

Anonymous

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Re: puzzling
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2002, 01:04:12 AM »
Assalamu Alaikum

I believe all this debate shows the remarkable misunderstanding of what the crux of Amina lawal's case is.
It is true that the Mother and child are accounted for but, in the strict definition of the Law, it can be argued that Amina Lawal had a Child without having sex.That is an argument a prosecutor can introduce to this case although its most unlikely in Nigeria. Having established the fact that Ms Lawal did have sex with someone, and that someone has caterorically disavowed anything (in a Sharia court of Law) to do with Ms Lawal's case, the entire matter depends on what Ms Lawal says.
Here is where Ms Lawal faltered. She CONFESSED to having extramarital sex -evidence of which is the Child- with someone. Because that someone has denied responsibility for any wrong doing, Ms Lawal has to face the consequences of incriminating herself.
One can attempt prooving that the  alleged person DID commit the crime using blood sample. Then a clash of jurisdiction will be encountered because a constitutionally recognized court has acquitted the accused of the same offense and thus, he cannot be retried.
One can also argue, provided no Ijtihad was conduted on the admissibility of genetic evidences in court, no blood test are required.
It is an unfortunate natural dysfunction that women do bear babies and burden of proof in their case is impossible to deny in a case like this.
My suggestion will be to really discourage people from reporting cases that potentially involve Hadd punishments (like Zina.....) UNTILL a concerted effort is made to make the system balanced in the way male and females are judge. I am not in any way suggesting changing Allah's Law, but just make them compatible with the shrewed tactic of munafikai like the man who impregnated Amina Lawal.
I sincerely wish her the best.

Anonymous

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Re: puzzling
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2002, 01:06:47 AM »
Assalamu Alaikum

I believe all this debate shows the remarkable misunderstanding of what the crux of Amina lawal's case is.
It is true that the Mother and child are accounted for but, in the strict definition of the Law, it can be argued that Amina Lawal had a Child without having sex.That is an argument a prosecutor can introduce to this case although its most unlikely in Nigeria. Having established the fact that Ms Lawal did have sex with someone, and that someone has caterorically disavowed anything (in a Sharia court of Law) to do with Ms Lawal's case, the entire matter depends on what Ms Lawal says.
Here is where Ms Lawal faltered. She CONFESSED to having extramarital sex -evidence of which is the Child- with someone. Because that someone has denied responsibility for any wrong doing, Ms Lawal has to face the consequences of incriminating herself.
One can attempt prooving that the  alleged person DID commit the crime using blood sample. Then a clash of jurisdiction will be encountered because a constitutionally recognized court has acquitted the accused of the same offense and thus, he cannot be retried.
One can also argue, provided no Ijtihad was conduted on the admissibility of genetic evidences in court, no blood test are required.
It is an unfortunate natural dysfunction that women do bear babies and burden of proof in their case is impossible to deny in a case like this.
My suggestion will be to really discourage people from reporting cases that potentially involve Hadd punishments (like Zina.....) UNTILL a concerted effort is made to make the system balanced in the way male and females are judge. I am not in any way suggesting changing Allah's Law, but just make them compatible with the shrewed tactic of munafikai like the man who impregnated Amina Lawal.
I sincerely wish her the best.

 


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