Author Topic: puzzling  (Read 33235 times)

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Offline Blaqueen

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Re: puzzling
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2002, 02:22:00 PM »
"The Sokoto Shari’ah Court of Appeal upheld Safiya Hussein’s right to withdraw her confession even though government lawyers had tried to dispute that right. In acquitting her, however, the court did not address the substantive issue of proof based on pregnancy, relying instead on the more expedient technical point that the alleged offence was committed before the state passed the new Shari’ah criminal code. In the case of Amina Lawal, the Upper Shari’ah Court in Funtua, which recently heard the appeal, ruled that she could not withdraw her confession, and concurred with the ruling that pregnancy was proof of zina given by the lower Shari’ah Court. "
~~The Hudood Punishments in the Northern Nigeria: A Muslim Criticism By Sanusi Lamido Sanusi [LAGOS] OCTOBER 1, 2002



thats not fair... they should allow her to withdraw it naaaaaaaaaa.....
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Offline Blaqueen

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Re: puzzling
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2002, 02:27:37 PM »
mr. lamido... good points u stated...
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Re: puzzling
« Reply #32 on: October 15, 2002, 10:01:22 PM »
Assalamu Alaikum,

That is true Mallam; mine could be only a ?superficial reading of Usul al-fiqh? but being me your student I prefer you call me a toddler in the science of usul or at least a beginner in the art of intellectual judo as Ahmed Deedat would put it. Added to that I also think you should re-read my posting again. I did not suggest that nasab alone ?has so much weight that we should risk taking an innocent life to preserve it? as you insinuated, but this is what I said: ?Here as opposed to your last argument, I think our Aql (conscience or mind) and our Nasab (genealogy) are more important than our lives. Because it is certainly for our clearer conscience that nuisance among us should be punished and that punishment demands that sometimes some have to cease from existing.? I think in ordinary rule of logic the AND that appears between Aql(conscience) and Nasab(genealogy) in my statement unequivocally suggests that my conclusion has import only when Aql is merged with Nasab. I pray Mallam will be fair to me next time.
 

I have carefully and critically gone through your paper and I must confess that the issue as you addressed enjoyed the necessary attention that any dexterous jurist would give. Mukhtasar as you know for the past centuries is considered among our scholars to be the eventual authority in jurisprudential debates. Its mastery has been for long a prerequisite to our study of the science of jurisprudence. Particularly in the area I come from in Zaria city and some parts of northern Nigeria; people since time immemorial do commit Mukhtasar into their memory as they do commit Qur?an into their memory.  I believe it will be unfair on our part if we attribute ignorance of the complex debates of Malik jurists about the issue of Huddood, pregnancy and divorce to the judges who passed the verdict on the ?alleged? adulteresses.  

The real problem is not in the judges, or their understanding of the law; it is not also in the maximum gestation period neither is it that of being ?trigger happy? or ?finger happy? (in the case of stoning) but that of their confessions (I mean the alleged adulteresses) and their persistence on their confessions after they have lodged their appeal; do we know that even after their appeals these ladies confessed again in the court proceedings that their children were a product of illegitimate relationships? In the case of Safiya Hussaini; it was after the case has attracted the intervention of the international community and some human rights (?)   (obviously anti Shari?a western) organisations that she was acquitted. In this we can see that not only nasab is at stake but the religion (deen), our conscience (Aql) and our dignity (irdh) or sovereignty as a Muslim nation/culture.  

Mallam knows for certain that in everything there is adab(rule). My question here is what is the stand of shari?a in regard to an already passed judgement? What is appeal in Islam? What does the Prophet of Islam mean when he said ?a judge who pass a judgment and err has one ounce of reward and the one who pass it and get it correctly has two ounces of rewards?, Bukhari and Muslim.

Again, I can remember a scholar telling me that circumstances in usul al-fiqh determine the type of judgement that should be passed on a culprit; it also sometimes defines the dharurriyats, how true Mallam?

Mallam you suggested that I should read Ibn Ashoor's Maqasid al-Shari'ah and Dr Al-Yoobi's Maqasi al-Shari'ah al-Islamiyyah. Fine and beautiful, but I think it is about time we start considering what the majority of the jurists I mean jamhoor agreed upon; the ?consensus opinion?. Because if we choose to always cite opinions we will have myriads of them, there is always an alternative opinion, as a result of that we will NEVER, EVER act for a minute.

Yes, Mallam I truly need another paper that will dwell on these maqasid, circumstance and dharuriyyat; that will also elaborately speak more about the phrase ?ignorance is not an excuse?. While you continue to write Mallam, we on our part will not get tired of asking questions. Because only then we will be able to graduate from having ?superficial? knowledge of usul al-fiqh to being masters in the science of jurisprudence; of course a future inheritors and solvers of jurisprudential questions.

Most appreciative I forever remain.

Waziri

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Re: puzzling
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2002, 12:53:12 PM »
Wa alaikum assalam,
I will try and go straight to the points.

I am not sure anyone I have read has made a connection between forbidding
zina and the protection of aql. Also I have never read in any work of usul
that aql or nasl (or aql AND nasl) are more important than nafs. This does
not mean no one has written so. If you have come across something please let
me have your reference. If however it is just a thought from you I respect
your right to think it but would appreciate your articulating the arguments
that upturn the ranking given in the conventional books of usul.

Second point is this. I have myself gone through the traditional zaure
lessons and I pray for the opportunity to return to it. It has its uses but
it also has its drawbacks. Prime among these is a focus on cramming and
literal translation rather than thinking, reflection and dialectical
reasoning. The whole argument on nasab in my paper is on the chapter on
Iddah-ie in family law. The issue of pregnancy and zina is in criminal law.
I believe I made it clear in "Amina Lawal: Sex,Pregnancy and Muslim Law"
that the problem is not so much not knowing the Mukhtasar, but not making
the connection between the two laws in defining what is meant by pregnancy
as proof of zina.

Thirdly the issue of confession I have dealt with in the paper. I will only
add this, which I avoided in our earlier discussion since you had your own
report of the trial. From the court records of the initial trial it would
seem many of the issues surrounding Amina's pregnancy, the question of the
man, his acceptance and denial, her naming him etc took place in the village
in the presence of the traditional ruler, family members and hisbah, but NOT
in court.

The trial itself seems to have been very brief. Amina was asked if she was
divorced and never remarried, and if she was pregnant and had a child after
divorve. To both she replied yes. then the alkali said "Amina kin san wannan
zina ne?" (Do u know this is zina) and she said "yes". This is not a
confession. First the alkali led her into incriminating herself due to
ignorance. Second zina was not defined in the court (or even, surprisingly)
in the Katsina state laws so how can we be sure they were referring to the
same thing. In any event the sunnah is thatshe should come of her own
volition to confess (which is itself discouraged). In the madh hab she can
be asked the source of her pregnancy if it exceeds gestation. Otherwise her
views or those of her husband are not required as the matter is settled by
law.

Third Ibn Ashoor is not by any means outside the mainstream of usuliyyun.
The question of nasab, as you may well know, has never been a point of
consensus in terminology-as opposed to deen, aql, nafs and mal. Some
scholars count nasab among the dharuriyyat. Others use nasl. Still others
use budh' which refers either to sexual gratification (as a necessity0 or
the "planting of seed inside the womb". This matter is as old as the works
of shatibi. Ghazali, Amidi, Juwayni and other classical writers in
Usul.There is no "consensus of opinion" in thsi particular matter. In any
case, Ibn Ashoor has the right to question that consensus. You have done so
by asserting that in your view aql and nasl are more important than nafs and
I have respected that right as long as you go beyond expressing a thought
into presenting a reasoned argument.

Yes, the circumsatnces should determine the judgement. What are the
circumstances of the northern Nigerian Muslim village woman-in terms of
education and knowledge of the deen, material well being and ability to
resist temptation of small money, burden of children and the life of a
divorcee,general vulnerability to the wily deceit of men,general moral
standards and rectitude of the men and women, rich and poor, privileged and
deprived in her community? Would you say the circumstances call for  a
compassionate and understanding judgement accompanied by admonition,
education and assistance or the maximum penalty?

Finally, I think the argument that we should kill a Muslim to prove to the
western world that we are standing by our religion and culture is very
faulty. A Muslim(or non-Muslim) life can only betaken as instructed by Allah
and His Messenger. It matters not what the western world says. Do you not
see in the paper how Al-Lakhmi, Al-Qabisi and Abdul Haqq differ from their
Imam when they think obeying him will lead to taking a life without an
injunction from Allah and His Messenger?

I think with this oI will put the matter to rest having said all I believe
needs to be said. The reader will make up his mind which arguments to
accept. Most important we should all research the law if we truly believe in
shari'ah.There can be no shari'ah without Islam and as we have seen with
Safiya's trip to Rome these errors merely expose our beautiful and just
religion to ridicule. Is it not amazing that Rome, from where christians and
Jews fled to Muslim kingdoms in search of sanctuary from a wicked church
that crucified ppl and burnt them on the stake is now a haven for a Muslim
woman scared by her own inquisitors.

You speak of environment? We are living in a pluralistic society. How many
Muslims have strong enough faith to be stoned to death or to watch their
beloved ones so stoned especially where there are questions of due process.
the weak of afith and in knowledge will detest their own religion and run
into nthe arms of christianity. Mark my words.

To be forewarned is to be forearmed. We know how Islam won converts by being
the face of justice and mercy. Are we that face in Northern Nigeria today?

Sanusi

Offline Blaqueen

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Re: puzzling
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2002, 11:52:23 PM »
"Finally, I think the argument that we should kill a Muslim to prove to the  
western world that we are standing by our religion and culture is very  
faulty. A Muslim(or non-Muslim) life can only betaken as instructed by Allah  
and His Messenger."


thats some deep ish ryght there....... so she never even confessed..........  :-[ thats sad......



ok..... whut about those two in minna.....? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? whuts up wit them? ? ? ?
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Offline Blaqueen

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Re: puzzling
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2002, 11:54:43 PM »
abi na niger state...
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Anonymous

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Re: puzzling
« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2002, 11:35:42 PM »
Assalamu Alakum,

Mallam don’t be tired pls. I am not responding to a challenge or feeling intellectually challenged in anyway. I am only engrossed in a desire to know. But you are making it to sound as if I am the one that is bringing something new by coming up with a “fiqh” in a very unconventional way (smiles). I think my reference point about the connection between the crime of zina and protection of Aql(Conscience) or nasl AND aql as you suggested will not be anything other than you or your responses to my comment earlier in this forum. You touched on the maqasid; I mean the “whys” of the Shari”a. there you said Aql is one of them. It was then I started thinking that reversing the judgment could have the fatal effect of smearing our conscience. I asked this question in virtually all of my postings saying:

“Malam, as you have rightly pointed out, one of the maqasid of Shari’’a is to protect our conscience (Aql) for us; meaning that it has to protect for us our sense of right and wrong and I think this is what brought out the ruling that a judgement passed by a Shari’’a court cannot be reversed (Bashir Aliyu Umar has explained this in his rejoinder to your Adulteress Diary). Because reversing it as it has been done in the case of Safiya and as it is about to be done in the case of Amina, will spank our “dear” conscience. It is even what makes it easier for others to see Shari”a and Muslims as objects of ridicule.”  

And again I once said:

“Mallam knows for certain that in everything there is adab(rule). My question here is what is the stand of shari”a in regard to an already passed judgement? What is appeal in Islam? What does the Prophet of Islam mean when he said “a judge who pass a judgment and err has one ounce of reward and the one who pass it and get it correctly has two ounces of rewards”, Bukhari and Muslim.”

But Mallam you did not address the question in any way. I just don’t know Mallam, probably I am confused or foolish.

Yes, Mallam you have your own version of the trial; at a point when the villagers thought they should give her cover as urged by the holy prophet for Muslims to hide the evil doings of fellow Muslims. This woman felt they wanted to cheat her by not forcing her accomplice to slaughter ram and provide other things for the welfare of her newborn baby. She went to the police and told them about the situation. This means she was the one who first took her to the law. When the judge asked her as to whether she knows that what she did was zina or not she answered in the affirmative. But it is true that the court have never at a time defined what zina is. And Amina really confessed out of ignorance. That was why I asked you in my earlier posting twice to please explain to us the claim of jurists about the phrase “ignorance is not an excuse”.

Certainly Mallam the circumstance put so many things at stake between our dignity (irdh) as muslim nation, our (aql) as muslims, the deen in itself as it is being exposed to ridicule on one side and the life of our beloved sister on the other side.

Yes Mallam we need so many things as you said:

“Yes, the circumsatnces should determine the judgement. What are the
circumstances of the northern Nigerian Muslim village woman-in terms of
education and knowledge of the deen, material well being and ability to
resist temptation of small money, burden of children and the life of a
divorcee, general vulnerability to the wily deceit of men, general moral  
standards and rectitude of the men and women, rich and poor, privileged and  
deprived in her community? Would you say the circumstances call for a
compassionate and understanding judgement accompanied by admonition,
education and assistance or the maximum penalty?”

I agree with you completely. I think the hodood punishment should have been postponed, but how about this thing of an already passed judgment? These jurists what do they mean?

Finally, I think I must here re-mention again: these things are still a bunch of puzzles for me and by God I do not have the intellectual wherewithal to solve them. I am sick. I need help.

Thank you and God bless

Waziri

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Re: puzzling
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2002, 03:02:46 AM »
Well first of all I do not understand all the other books you guys are talking about. are you guys saying that if Naf's and alq that a woman should be killed because some stupid people who are despart for attention think she's committed Zinah ??? Can you please enlighted me.

Thanks
- Gimbiya

Offline admin

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Re: puzzling
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2002, 07:22:11 AM »
Gimbiya, thank you for responding to this topic, but as a policy, we do not agree or appreciate the use of this kind and tone of the language you just use here. We do not think its a good thing to say what you said in the way you said it. If a topic being discussed is beyond your scope of understanding and comprehension, it is best you do not respond to the topic. This is a discussion forum for us to discuss things in a mature and respectable manner. We do not agree with nor will we tolerate this kind of language.

Quote
Well first of all I do not understand all the other books you guys are talking about. are you guys saying that if Naf's and alq that a woman should be killed because some stupid people who are despart for attention think she's committed Zinah ?Can you please enlighted me.
Kaini Kano ko a buhun barkono!!!

Offline Dan-Sokoto

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Re: puzzling
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2002, 10:29:32 AM »
GIMBIYA from the records, you just registered to become a member of this forum recently. Please and please, the issues being discussed are fundamental and serious, and if you cannot participate responsibly it is advisable you don't respond. Your last comment is most un-serious, ignorant and abusive and i am of the opinion, such should not be entertained in this forum.

Administrator! I am so piqued by this Gimbiya of a person that, i am compelled to recommend a radical solution that could possibly solve the problems of these imposters that intercede to make a mockery of serious discussions. My proposal is under a new topic called TRUE AND AUTHENTIC IDENTITY OF KANOONLINE MEMBERS.

Dan-Sokoto

Offline Rose

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Re: puzzling
« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2002, 07:06:59 PM »
OOhh sister :-/@Gimbiya.
Say Good or you shut-up :-X Thats what our prophet said.
I don't know may be you are not a muslim, But Still Respect yourself by respecting others Believe etc.
aNo Ta DaBo ChiGaRii, GaRi Ba KaNo Ba DaJin ALLaH.

Offline Blaqueen

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Re: puzzling
« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2002, 07:52:04 PM »
ok... so movin' on......

...... i would really appreciate it.... if ya'll used short, sweet, and simple sentences....

ya'll are confusin' meeh.....

i know waziri is sayin'.... she should be released... cuz she wants to withdraw her confession....but they wont allow her... and in Islam thats wrong...

and lamido is sayin'.... he dunno her rights...

and i still never grab whut "aql" is..... u all keep goin back and forth...
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Offline Blaqueen

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Re: puzzling
« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2002, 04:40:04 PM »
ok ok ok ......... since u refuse to ansa meeh.. i now know whut "aql" is... intelligence (for all those who neva grab 'am too)...

so.....  ::)

QUESTION:
is there a difference between a chronic adulterer and some one who might have made a "mistake".. as in one who juss happened to fall in that trap...??

i mean.. look at amina... she dont look like those hard-core chronic adulterers.... maybe the man tricked her... hey..kila bata da wayo... she was prolly divorced and depressed...
and yeah.. maybe she doenst have enuff Islamic background... after all.. she did kinda turn her self in right? (i wonder whut she was expecting  ::) ......)

ps...remain for u to not ansa my question...
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Offline fatee

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Re: puzzling
« Reply #43 on: October 24, 2002, 09:47:12 AM »
Assalamu alaikum,
I beleive there isn't any diff btw a chronic adulterer and someone who made a mistake,the first time is mostly a mistake and 4rom there it continous.
And i don't think there is any muslimi in this world who don't know what zina is and it's "had"
  Details of the " How to conduct the law" needs good  islamic background , but not mere knowledge of "The defination of Zina" .
  she isn't a teenager balle ace an mata wayo, and if she actully did it , then withdrawing that confession is not 4 her own benefit.
" In ta guji azaban duniya bazata guji na lahira ba.

ma'assalam

Offline Blaqueen

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Re: puzzling
« Reply #44 on: October 24, 2002, 11:31:05 AM »
u have a point... but still.. luts of them need to be educated some more....

sha....Allah ya kiyaye
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