Author Topic: Do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable?  (Read 15183 times)

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Offline King

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Re: Do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable?
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2008, 05:23:56 AM »
I have read several of Dave's senseless rantings on this Arab-Israeli conflict. I say his rantings are senseless because I see no rational behind his reasoning. In his mind, Israel should fold its arms and allow themselves to be bombarded with rockets and do nothing to ward off the attacks. His ludicrous argument which I find totally odd is that Israel annexed Palestinian land and as such are 'illegal' occupiers.

Before I proceed, let me state here that I believe the Palestinians should have their own land base, country of whatever they chose to call it. I agree that the best solution to current conflict is a two state arrangement. This is a plan that the Palestinians have consistently rejected, hence this prolong conflict. I think is it so ridiculous to even think for a second that Israel is going to pack up and leave their country. Injustice or no injustice, palestinians need to realize that the World we live in is not a perfect or a fair World.  Black people in America were in slavery for centuries in which time they were striped of their identity, of the cultural heritage, of their families, and even of their humanity. The very Jewish people were enslaved, taken to captivity, brutalized, displaced for centuries. More recently, they were ethnically cleansed by Nazi Germany to near extinction. The black people in South Africa were for years segregated and brutalized by the apartheid white regime, yet the system finally collapse, whites were not sent packing from South Africa. They are all inclusive in the 'new' South Africa. They never paid for their crimes. Europeans haven't paid Africa for the crimes they committed in the continent. So, yes injustice does occur and sometimes, people have to move on with an alternative option.

History has it that there was a sizeable Jewish population living in the region called Palestine prior to WW1 and WW2. History has it that the majority palestinian population would constantly harrass, assault, murder the Jewish residents. Jewish businesses were often attacked, and all these was pre World war 1. If the excuse for today's conflict is that Jews stole Palestinian lands, how do they explain the conflicts prior to World War 1, and World War 2?.

The UN partitioned the region to make room for all ethnic groups given the tension that existed. The hostility was so bad that the prominent Muslim leader joined the Nazi party, met with Adolf Hitler, and that Fascist Benito Mussolini to make plans for the total annihilation of the Jewish people.  How brazen is that?
When the UN partitioned the territory, no party was completely satisfied with the arrangement, but the UN did its best under the circumstance especially given the obvious fact that Palestianians could not co-exist with the Jews. Israel wanting to put an end to the debacle, accepted to the plan so they could live in peace they thought. They even got the shittier partition plan than the palestinians. They had poorer and less land for Agriculture. The did not have Jerusalem and Bethlehem either.
The Arabs opted to go to War convinced of an assured victory, but they soon found out that they were in for a long ride. Their defeat in the subsequent wars resulted in loss of territory which Israel never had before. Most of those territories have been returned for peace, yet Hamas and others continue to launch rockets in Israel. When Israel responds as they should, many people here like Dave, become afflicted with amnesia, and ignore what prompts Israeli counter action.

The question to be asked now is this, what would satisfy the Palestinians. What  kind of arrangement would be acceptable to them and their supporters in the Arab World. Simply refusing to recognize Israel's right to exist is absolute stupidity. Israel does exist. When black South Africans were being oppressed, they still recognized the presence and existence of the White oppressors. It is stupidity not to recognize the presence or existence of the very people you accuse of kicking your ass everyday. The common sense thing to do is focus on diplomacy and negotiate a settlement so that life can be normal in the region. There has to be a give and take. Opportunities have been lost here, and I am sorry to say, not all demands can be met in circumstance like this. I understand that Palestinians can be very resolute in their cause, but unfortunately, they are dealing with a people that have survived hell on earth, something the palestinians have never tasted. They are just as stubborn, determined, and mean spirited when the situation demands it. I doubt that they'll move one inch from their nation.

Offline Dave_McEwan_Hill

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Re: Do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable?
« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2008, 10:49:45 PM »
Perhaps King should get his facts right before he starts pontificating.
Israel illegally invaded and annexed large parts of Palestine on several occasions and drove the Palestinians out of their homes and off their farms.
Israel still occupies the lands it stole despite being told on many occasions by the United Nations to give them back to their rightful owners. Israel has killed many more than the casualties it has suffered.
Its stupid invasion of Lebanon last year cost thousands of lives.
These are all facts.
At no point did I say that Palestine lobbing shells into Israeli settlements was justified so King should read what I say before he spouts.
What I did say was that the present conflict was caused by Israel stealing the lands and homes of Palestinians. That is also fact.
The only reason Israel gets away with this is that the US supports it in its defiance of the United Nations.
I have no intention of entering into a debate with someone who has no grasp of the facts.
maigemu

Offline gogannaka

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Re: Do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable?
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2008, 12:30:14 AM »
Quote from: Jack Fulcher
As for your statement about Iraq being a "hell on earth," I don't think this is true outside of Sadr City.  Who are the only two democracies in the middle east?  Ans: Israel and Iraq.  Of course, sometimes there's a vote someplace else, but not with full participation of opposition parties, and not with a free press, and certainly not with any danger to the ruling party.

And I agree that we're there mainly because oil is at stake.  We need it for the machines, and we're willing to pay dearly for it.  I'd think you'd be happy for this.  The Arabs and Iranians and Iraquis don't have to do anything and we'll send them billions of dollars yearly for it.  Given what Saddam tried to do to the oil supply in the early 1990s, I'd say we did what needed to be done for not only our own economy, but for the economies of most of the countries in the world.  As long as there are Saddams threatening economies the way he did, we're going to do something.

You had a bad point there Jack.
What the war in Iraq did to the world's economy and the United states's in particular is no good.
Prior to the war a barrell of oil sold for $50-$55 but now it is aiming $200. The US economy,as much as your press is trying to hide is ailing (severely), global price of food is skyrocketing,all attributed to the war in Iraq and America's policing of the world.

Honestly the US ,is paying, and will continue to pay the price for the millions of innocent victims the 'baseless' war has caused.............

'weapons of mass destruction'....sigh
Surely after suffering comes enjoyment

Offline King

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Re: Do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable?
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2008, 02:03:56 AM »
Dave, present your facts. No long talk, no amnesia, no dancing around, none of your crap. Let's do a chronology of events in the Arab-Israeli conflict. Lay out the time line, dates, conflicts, events, etc in a chronological order going back prior to 1914, up until 1948. Since you know so much about facts, lay out your facts. No unnecessary rhetoric please.

Offline Dave_McEwan_Hill

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Re: Do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable?
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2008, 12:44:47 AM »
Lets stop avoiding the question. Did Israel illegally and brutally invade and annexe large areas of Palestine by driving the Palestinians out of their homes and off their farms?
Once we've had that one answered we can move onto the other facts.
maigemu

Offline Jack Fulcher

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Re: Do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable?
« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2008, 01:16:28 AM »
It sounds like King is much more an expert on the historical facts of this case than I am.  I have admitted before on this board that I never paid much attention to the Arab-Israeli conflict until the last few years.  I'm not Jewish and was quite frankly annoyed at the apparent inability of these people to get along.  I'm originally from Los Angeles and if we can get along, given the multitudes of different races and cultures there, I think that anyone should be able to live side by side.

But here's what I do know about the area.  Jews and Muslims got along reasonably (except for the occasional pogrom) for centuries until WWII.  Then the Arabs took the German side in the war and adopted the German attitude regarding those pesky Jews, i.e., that whatever bad happened to them, the Jews were in some way responsible.  It's always easy to be a victim, and all victims need someone to blame for everything.  If you can't be a victim, you might have to grow up and take responsibility for your bad decisions.

Then the Germans inconveniently lost the war, and the facts of the Holocaust were discovered (that little Hitler in Iran can deny the Holocaust as much as he wants, but it only makes him look ignorant).  The Jews needed some place to live where they could be safe, and the Zionists among them chose the area they are in now.  Not all Jews agreed, but enough did that the victorious powers (which became the UN) arranged for them to go there.  I don't know how you're using the term "legal," Dave, but this sounds legal to me, from an international law perspective.  If the UN (or what eventually became the UN) said it was OK to do this, it was legal.  Unless you mean "whatever I don't like is illegal."  I hope you don't mean this definition of "illegal."   

As for driving them out of what they called Trans Jordan, my understanding is that the Jordanian and other Arab leaders announced that people should leave because their glorious armies were going to crush the "invading Zionist armies," which they tried but were unable to do.  First Nasser and then Saddam saw themselves as the modern day Saladin.  But they found that the Americans, British, French, Italians and Germans were all supporting the new state of Israel, probably because of their feelings of guilt over the Holocaust.  The reality today is that the Israelis will not be driven out of the area, no matter how many of their neighbors vow to do so. 

When alcoholics join Alcoholics Annonymous they learn that they need to know the things they can change, change those things, and learn to live with the things they can't change.  This is wisdom.  The Arabs and other Muslims in the middle east need to achieve this wisdom because it's the only way to live a fulfilling life - if they can't let this anger go, they will die unhappy. 

So I hope I'm not "avoiding the question," Dave.  It doesn't look illegal to me.  It just looks like a history of scapgoating by people who need to stop being victims and start living.  Unless being a victim appeals to you.  Jack

Offline King

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Re: Do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable?
« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2008, 02:56:15 AM »
Dave, here you go again beating around the bush. You claimed to know facts. You alleged that I do not know the facts of this historical conflict. Very well I said. I then asked you to give me a chronology of events sorrounding the Arab-Israeli conflict, and you come up with this ridiculous and pointless question. Not a problem. In any case to answer to your question, NO! Israel did not forcefully annex Palestinian land. Hope that is loud and clear for you. Now, can you give me a chronology of event and the time line? And please, no unnecessary sermons.

Offline HUSNAA

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Re: Do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable?
« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2008, 12:35:11 PM »
King, or shall I say Ete, tone down yr language pls. Be more respectful. Dave is much older than u and therefore deserves that respect. No one is calling yr posts rants or senseless or any of that. You are running true to form unfortunately. That is what got you off the board previously. Pls no matter how much u dont like someone's posts, dont use abusive language when replying. Dont you see that Dave is not retaliating in kind? He is being a a true gentleman in his replies and even Jack Fulcher who apparently sides with you talks in a more civilized and friendly manner.
I dont know what it is about you and the Israeli Palestinian issue.. it brings out the worst in you...
Ghafurallahi lana wa lakum

Offline Muhsin

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Re: Do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable?
« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2008, 04:54:15 PM »
I feel like ignoring your preceeded posts/replies to me, Jack, would likely denotates something which I don't mean to by so doing. Thats the only reason that ignites me to come back up here and say some more few words. Further, am afraid to stumble up here because I see between Dave and King, the wheather is getting boiled.

I only wanna reiterate what I had earlier said that I won't say much words concerning Amina Lawal, Danish cartoon and Sudan school teacher issues. This has had been intensively discussed, indepthley analysed and hotly debated on on many discussion boards. That'll mean reversing our car to an unintened direction, I at least believed.

Keep up the discussion, very interesting, informative and well...educative.
Get to know [and remember] Allah in prosperity & He will know  [and remember] you in adversity.

Offline King

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Re: Do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable?
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2008, 03:02:59 AM »
I am still waiting for his presentation whenever he finds time to respond with facts and chronology. I don't think that is asking too much. Husnna, this is a healthy dialogue. I have no clue what you are talking about.

Offline sheriff 05

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Re: Do you believe that suicide bombing is justifiable?
« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2008, 09:14:31 AM »
Jack, King,

I am no expert on the palestinian issue and I do think the palestinian people have severe problems of their own, but I do know as absolute fact that the land dispute is not based on the declared state of Israel as at 1948. It is on land "annexed" by Israel after the 1967 war which was not ceeded by the UN and which international law deems illegal. It is not me or you making the assertion it is international law which is fact and which every single country on earth except for Israel, acknowledges.. I was listening to an interview with Tony Blair 2 weeks ago and he used the standard expression for that contentious land "Occupied territories". No government calls that Israelly land (except Israel of course) and that is the bone of contention... They refuse to give it back and the palestinians keep fighting for it .. That, king, is the issue at hand and the bone of contention, not post 1948 state of Israel...

Jack is absolutely correct in that pre WW2 aside natural skirmishes which are bound to exist there was relative harmony between the Jews, Muslims and indeed the oft forgotten Coptic christian community of the middle east. In the short space of 60 years we (proponents of all 3 religions and their secular backers are guilty of this) have conveniently forgotten this and in the quest for power and superiority have bread a generation that know nothing but fighting, death, destruction and hardship.

In re-emphasisng and staunchly dwelling on our differences, we have completely eroded our commonalities and serve to make mutual co-existence ever harder to achieve, if not impossible (just look at Lebanon)... That, I believe is the greatest tragedy of the 20th century, because in countries big and small, rich and poor, near or far, that divisiveness and the ever aggressive quest to dominate the "other" will lead to many more even worse tragedies to come.... 

 


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