The Israeli/Lebanese conflict..

[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

As I promised here are some verifiable statements by Israeli leaders which indicate very clearly how they despise the Arabs and always look for ways or make excuses to attack them.
It also shows that the Israelis know very well that they are on land stolen from the Palestinians.
The words speak for themselves.
Please read these statements very carefully.
They tell you why Israel, who had a few soldiers killed or kidnapped, used that as an excuse to pulverise a huge part of a neighbouring country.
I have no intention of responding to the sort of insulting rubbish that Ete seems to think will improve his arguements.
Some famous quotes from Israeli Prime Ministers regarding the Middle East conflict:

"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." - Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): " If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

"We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return... The old will die and the young will forget."-David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, July 18, 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar's "Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet," Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.

"We must expel Arabs and take their places." - David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." - David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, 'What is to be done with the Palestinian population; Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'? Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979; Rabin's description of the conquest of Lydda, after the completion of Plan Dalet.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country." - David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist." - Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." - Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy." - Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

"I have learned that the state of Israel cannot be ruled in our generation without deceit and adventurism." --Moshe Sharett, Israel's first Foreign Minister and later a Prime Minister (p.51 Simha Flapan, "The Birth of Israel", 1987)

"The state of Israel must invent dangers, and to do this it must adopt the methods of provocation and revenge.... And above all, let us hope for a new war with the Arab countries so that we may finally get rid of our troubles and acquire our space." -From the diary of Moshe Sharett, Israeli's first Foreign Minister from 1948-1956, and Prime Minister from 1954-1956.

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."-Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." - Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...." - Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.

"I would have joined a terrorist organization." - Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.
"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories." Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, tells students at Bar Ilan University, From the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.



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[Muhsin]

Muhsin, that exactly is the problem.  This was never about religion, and I think it is important to see clearly through this conflict, rather then muddy up the facts.  This problem began when Hebollah killed 8 Israeli soldiers and kidnapped two.  Prior to that, Hebollah had been firing rockets into Israel from southern Lebanon right under the nose of the Lebanese government.  In any world, that is considered a sign of aggression. So the question I have for you is this, if you were in Israel's shoes, what would you do?  Sit and fold your arms while you continually get attacked?

Regarding religion, I am not a religious person.  I am someone that sees things for what they are. People have committed insane acts under the name of religion.  This is why Lionger and myself said earlier and very clearly, that this is not about religion, but certain people here cannot seperate religion from anything else and as such their argument is clouded.

Haba fellow Ete.
Go back to news and see what first of all engineered this battle. That is all I think I can recomend you to do.

But though, I think asking you a certain question could be an added information in my clarification. Where do they killed and abducted these soldiers, was it on Israel ground or lebanon?

Moreover, to me for a full sane humanbeing to beat chest and announce that he is not a religious person is not a nice idea, perfectly not. I don't want bring in another new argument here but I'm sorry to ask: what's the purpose of your being in this planet?

[moray]

The source of this problem is Europe's persecution of the Jews from the middle ages to the holocaust. The awful treatment of the Jews forced them into exile and they were given sanctuary by a benevolent muslim world, the Ottoman Turks actually sent ships to rescue Jews from the Spanish inquisition. The holocaust forced the Jews to create the state of Israel as a safe haven for their people.
What makes me very angry is that a guilty Europe agreed that the Jews should have their own country, so did they offer them land in Europe, oh no, they generously decided that the muslims, who had helped the Jews should give up some of their land. Not for one minute do I support the actions of Israel, but I try to explain that after thousands of years of torture, persecution and genocide, the Jews decided enough is enough.
It is a pity that they took their anger out on the muslims who had only tried to help them.

[Ete]

Dave, and I am supposed to read your own rubbish right?
The mere fact that you run away from responding to the questions I posted up there is a clear indication that you are a deceiver. You prefer to run from the truth rather than face them.  

The quotes you put up there are fabricated and quite ridicoulous. I wonder how you would expect a rational person to take them seriously.

First off, you quoted David Ben Gurion who appears all saddened, and remorseful that Israel "took Arab" land. Then in the very next quote, you set of quotes, the same man that was so remorseful and unhappy, suddenly appears to be in full support of eliminating the Arabs and taking their so called land.  This is so fraudulent and fake.

Muhsin,  the purpose of me being on this planet is to live my life, and I am living it.  What sort of question is that anyway? I live, I work hard, pay my tax, obey the laws of the land,  I do not detonate a bomb in civilian buildings and praise God afterwards.  I do not fight my neighbors even if they are totally Godless because it is not my job to impose any kind of will over them.  I volunteer for different community help events, I send a chunk of money to family and friends in Nigeria. I also reach out to people I do not know. Is that enough purpose?

[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

Ete
Every quote is totally accurate and genuine. You will have to do better than just call me names when you read something that destroys your biased views.
I will not respond to any other such rubbish but I suggest you seek neutral reporting on this matter from the BBC, Franch or German news reporting and stop swallowing American distortions.

David McEwan Hill

[mlbash]

I wanted to remain silent about this topic though i always follow it with keen interest, honestly when i read Husnaa's posts must atimes i felt relief, no need of further reply. but with the recent development i just want to call the attention of Ete, please you should learn to tollerate and respect the views of others. i believe mr. Dave is one of the most objective members of k-online.
so Ete please respect others and others will respect you.

[Muhsin]

Dave, and I am supposed to read your own rubbish right?
The mere fact that you run away from responding to the questions I posted up there is a clear indication that you are a deceiver. You prefer to run from the truth rather than face them.  

The quotes you put up there are fabricated and quite ridicoulous. I wonder how you would expect a rational person to take them seriously.

First off, you quoted David Ben Gurion who appears all saddened, and remorseful that Israel "took Arab" land. Then in the very next quote, you set of quotes, the same man that was so remorseful and unhappy, suddenly appears to be in full support of eliminating the Arabs and taking their so called land.  This is so fraudulent and fake.

Muhsin,  the purpose of me being on this planet is to live my life, and I am living it.  What sort of question is that anyway? I live, I work hard, pay my tax, obey the laws of the land,  I do not detonate a bomb in civilian buildings and praise God afterwards.  I do not fight my neighbors even if they are totally Godless because it is not my job to impose any kind of will over them.  I volunteer for different community help events, I send a chunk of money to family and friends in Nigeria. I also reach out to people I do not know. Is that enough purpose?

What a wonderful person am I discussing with? Lol

Mr. Ete, you did bula-bula and refused to answer my other question. You last talked about who at first intant attacked who between Isreal&Lab.

I thank God. They yesterday epitomise themselves to all in this globe that they don't want peace in midle east. They mercelessly attacked village of masses, and come on media saying they are hunting for Hizbulla members.

Hum, God is watching and there is life after daeth-I thank God for that.Whatsoever one does, he/she is, either he/she likes or not meet God- the best judge, on the judgement day. And moreover, the truth is ONE

[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

A very full and unbiased account of Israel's failure in South Lebanon can be found in today's Sunday Herald from Scotland

http://www.sundayherald.com/news

[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

Sorry. Put the wrong page of the Sunday Herald up. Check into  "Analysis" on the scroll bar at the top for an account of the real situation vis a vis Hezbollah.

[HUSNAA]

Anyone interested should also read this at Kevin Sites hotzone.

http://hotzone.yahoo.com/b/hotzone/blogs8692

It is about an ex CIA agent admitting to who won and who lost the war. Despite the fact that lebanon suffered huge casualties HesbUllah came out on top, because Israel failed to achieve any of its objectives for going on the defensive.
This article is not anyone on this forum's fabrication. It is from someone who for all intents and purposes should be on the side of the Israelis given his previous background.

If one scrolls down to the end of the article to where other ppl have written in their comments on the piece, one will find that the fifth comment is the David Ben Gurion quote which Dave McEwan Hill wrote and which Ete said was 'fraudulent and fake'.

I dont believe Ben Gurion was saddened or remorseful. To my thinking, he was swaggering in the spirit of 'We the conquerors' when he made that statement and in all certainty it must have been made in private not in public.

[_Waziri_]

Mr. David has done a very good job by providing us with the quotes from the Jewish leaders above. This shows that he has taken bold steps to look at what is happening in todays world or even world history from the other cone angle. But one question remains. Can now Dave see the reason why I  made the submission in the other thread that the account of the Holocoust may have been exagerated?

[mallamt]

I believe qouting as dave did is very misleading and dangerous.  It is always icritical to contextualize statements making snap shots as dave did is wrong.  One can also make snap shots of statements or comments made by arab leaders on isreal and they will read like horror stories that will justify the actions of isreal.  So i believe we must becareful with the importance given the qoutes by dave except if he gives us the context they were made and shows that the meaning is as portrayed in the statements

[mallamt]

I believe qouting as dave did is very misleading and dangerous.  It is always icritical to contextualize statements making snap shots as dave did is wrong.  One can also make snap shots of statements or comments made by arab leaders on isreal and they will read like horror stories that will justify the actions of isreal.  So i believe we must becareful with the importance given the qoutes by dave except if he gives us the context they were made and shows that the meaning is as portrayed in the statements

[Ete]

Mallamt, that is why I never even bothered to respond.  Waziri introduced this out of context quoting tactic.  Dave soon picked it up and can hardly differentiate now between reality and fiction.

[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

There is very considerable ignorance of events current and in the past showing up in some of the posts in this topic.

There is also evidence of bad feeling beween Moslem and Christian contributers distorting judgements.  

Like, for instance,Waziri's silly remaks about the Holocaust. There are over 65million entries on the web about the Holacaust with all the facts available. A few hours reading a few of them provides all the evidence about the over 6million Jews, gypsies and homosexuals murdered by the Nazis.

I challenge Waziri to ask the German Government to give him the facts about the Holocaust.