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Re: North's vicious circle of Poverty

In the 26/07/08 edition of Weekly Trust Newspaper is the cover story with the above title, which discussed the poverty phenomenon in Northern Nigeria in the light of the much attention the issue has garnered in recent times, especially when the Central Bank of Nigeria's governor,  Professor Charles Soludo drew attention to it - though reiterating what he once said a year past - at a lecture organised by the Northern Development Initiative in Kaduna,  some weeks ago, asking the federal government to declare the situation in the North, a national crisis.

Many people differ on the different causes and solutions to the problem as it affects the region and the country in general. While some of us are quick to identify with positions as that of Mallam Salihu Lukman, a development Economist interviewed in the same edition of the paper, which squarely blamed it on the leadership of Northern Nigeria, that cannot, among other things, fully account for the 17 Trillion Naira it collected from the federal coffers between 1999 to 2007, in the light of efforts at poverty alleviation. Others, as our brothers across the Niger, will rather blame the religion and culture of Northerners as the main culprit, with the justification that the Northern leaders are not any worse than the Southern leaders and yet the Southerners are better up, so the explanation must be in the values, religion and culture of Northerners, or at a stretched imagination, laziness – as seen in certain statement issued by Arewa Consultative Forum (ACF) and reported by The Punch of 31/07/08. This perception is further strengthened by the content an interview conducted by the Weekly's reporter, Ja'afar Ja'afar and published in the same edition, under a title that says it all, 'I was given N50, 000 capital, but I married with it', and described Mallam Garba, the interviewed, as  "a real-life stereotype of a Hausa man.", who cares not about, "what to eat or what to wear" and is "very indifferent, un ambitious and a man with a simplistic outlook to life."


This piece intends to scrutinise the two positions advanced, in the hope of providing insight into the nature of the processes that led the North to this sorry state economically.

Here it is important to understand the fact that there is a wide gap of difference between, culture, religion, values on one side, and in this context, from world view, which typifies the behaviour of an average Northerner like Mallam Garba. The truth of the matter is religion or culture has little to do with human taste, instinct and desire to survive on a certain standard. It only governs choices on how to achieve a standard. This is why we see a lot of Northerners who are not like Mallam Garba in style, despite them sharing same religion, culture and values with him.

A close examination will reveal that the mechanism of progress that made the Hausa the most vibrant and enterprising nation in the whole of West Africa, at a time of the past, is still here. It is also not laziness as, today; nobody comes from any region to farm for them the food they survive on daily.  It is like those seeking for an answer to why the Northern Nigeria is in its state now despite the fact of its elite holding power in the composition of the present Nigerian nation-state for over 40 years, should try some reading in classical power and relational politics and its implication on groups' socio-economic development. In this, one will see that the North is where it is today only in respect to the popular saying that one cannot eat their cake and still have it as it is with all other natural phenomena.

The seemingly correct explanation is the Northern elite, who are responsible for  expanding the paradigm and worldview of  average Northerners situating them at par with their counter parts across the world,  got power, in the composition of Nigerian nation, in the late 1950s and in order to keep to it they chose the option of eliminating the middle class among them, because the likely thing to happen is the middle class, if allowed, might grow in economy, influence and strength enough to wrench power from the upper class. This is what happened when Gowon in the early 70s and Shagari in the late 70s, allowed their own to grow strong in the military. They just did away with them in 1975 and 1984 respectively and clung to power making sure they did not make the same mistake their predecessors made. They continued the practice of axing their own economically, intellectually and otherwise.

On the other side, the other regions, with especial example of Awo of the South West, were not faced with anything of political control of Nigeria and as such they continued to strengthen their middle class as the upper class realized the need to empower their own as a comprehensive defence against the onslaught of Northern upper class elite. The middle class served as an armoury to the upper class. They continued the battle for them until the early nineties when IBB annulled the popular June 12 election.

Then came the climaxes, the June 12 was ethnicised and regionalised, the South West had a good number of media outfits and middle class individuals with the right education and economic resources to sustain the fight while in the North of early nineties, very few among the middle class could do well in countering the others in the intellectual fight at the level of resources. At the end of the day, after the demise of Abacha, the Northern elite were confronted with no option than to dash power to the South West in 1999. They have won the fight.

When Obasanjo realized his bearing and started targeting these Northern elites it still remained that they had none to defend them save the few middle class created during Abacha regime under the Buhari PTF. Many young Northerners then have merited contracts and made a couple of millions. They were the ones who established focused media houses, maintained Newspaper columns, and started getting back at Obasanjo and his policies.

And of course, the era of Obasanjo was the era of South West participating in national politics. Even though they already have a vibrant middle class, and sound economic structure that benefited from the regime's economic considerations at the centre, it is evident that they also suffered from what the North earlier on suffered from as their elite started a war of control of the region's social and cultural resources. This war recorded many casualties as even people like Bola Ige had to take exit, brutally killed.  Also the control politics did not allow their governors to work in unison with progress of the region. In fact they were rated among the worst in performance.
On his part, Obasanjo had to seek for his loyalist outside his own region because trusting and elevating his regional men in the centre may lead to excessive ambition which in turn may result in a palace coup akin to what happened to his predecessors like Gowon and Shagari and their people whom they trusted with the leadership of the military.

This is about the story of Northerners in Nigeria and what came up in their economic development. It is also the reason why there was no time when Northerners talked much about their economy more than the time of Obasanjo's leadership. Being it they left the leadership position of the country and the upper class were being attacked by Obasanjo mercilessly. Of course, it was also then that the leadership in the North achieved most, more than the many years it clung to power at the centre.

This is why some of us think the North can have meaningful economic development only if power is made to stay away from its elite for several years while others think, Northerners may have learnt their lessons and will now work assiduously to develop the region. 
The whole of this truth is particularly important to stress here given the pronouncements of the governor of Niger State, Alhaji Mu'azu Babangida Aliyu, who tried to attribute the present economic predicament of the North, as widely reported by Newspapers around the country, to an obscure international conspiracy.

If indeed there was a conspiracy it was a Northern Political Class Conspiracy which lost itself in the game of control politics over time.

As it is now the solution to the problem is not one of a short term as the generation of youths without the relevant  skills necessary for survival in formal economy now as the ones to be produced in the recent future are very much in the league of the 86% -  quoted percentage of the poor - among us. So an affirmative action, with the intent of taking care of our distant future, which appeals to laws and legislations, is the only options. The solution, though good, is not totally in the much taunted, revitalisation of the Agricultural Sector in the North, for Anambra State that is among the highest in the country's economic index is not an agricultural haven or oil reservoir. After all the Agricultural Sector, if revitalised, may end up serving the economic need of others if there is no enough skilled manpower with right national and international market strategies among the Northerners. Here it is particularly important for the government to invest hugely in human capital development as Northerners need to have more of a world class exposure in various disciplines both academic and entrepreneurial,  necesary for survival in the capitalist world.

We certainly, also, cannot continue in the pretentions of creating welfare states. No how can a government continue to afford a free education for all as the Bauchi State House of Assembly is recently heard to be saying it would put Qur'anic Schools and its Almajirai in the state's budget. This is not practicable as even the formal Western Type of schools that are government owned are not maintained adequately. In fact the example of Kano State which tried to do that as reported in the same edition of Weekly Trust is not encouraging.

So instead of us to continue sailing the dream boat, legislations must be made and enforced that will compel parents to bear more the responsibilities of the children they produce – since religiously it is their duty - as they sometimes recklessly and indiscriminately marry without regard to religious injunctions in keeping and maintaining a family. Thus they send the children out to others cities, hawking and scavenging as Almajirai, in the Qur'anic Schools they could always find in their own villages. It is these Almajirai , growing in the streets with a very bad taste of what life is, with wrong upbringing, wrong heroes, wrong worldview and wrong skills of survival in the 21st century world, that  form the bulk of the poor people in Northern Nigeria.

Also such legislations must lead to the creation of agencies, as in other Muslim African countries, like Egypt, Libya and Tunisia, which will be saddled with the responsibilities of accessing the economic and mental worth of anybody who intends to marry or add another wife as many among us are tilted toward abusing the privilege associated with polygamy by placing satisfaction that comes from their being with many wives above their responsibilities of seeing to the maintenance of the family. They plan to produce as many children as they can without planning to give them the best as the religion requires of them. As such we end up with many children that cannot be catered for adequately by their parents, growing in the streets with a terrible taste of what life is, with no abilities to think and save themselves or even those around them in the context of the challenges daily living presents.

It is my humble opinion that family is the barometer of all communities, and keeping political correctness aside, we will need to understand governance as meaning making attempts to make subjects of a defined community disciplined and responsible in all of their dealings and this starts with the channels and processes of procreation in the community. Failure to address issues at this level signals the triumph of anarchy as it is seen in the threat we are facing from the monsters of poverty in Northern Nigeria due to, largely, among other things, our neglect of legal provisions in the formation of family units in both religion and our secular living.

Poverty in the north has not created a vicious circle thank God. If it were a vicious circle then there would be no way out literally. But there is a way out, since the poverty doesnt feed on its self. The way out is to get selfless leaders and give everyone a good education, slowly and surely the poverty will eradicate itself.

welldone uncle waziri, i wouldnt have make my earlier
thread on finding whose fault over the north's poverty
i had known you were busy making up this wonderful
piece.  i read it for the third time, and on each circle i
kept on stumbling on something new which i havent
thought of at all - thanks to old age and wisdom.

earlier on, in my thread on who to blame, i strongly see
our religious leaders as mastermind of the serious at
hand, though uncle waziri instead you blamed it on the
followership, whereby muslims practiced only what suits
them, as you cited examples of marrying multiple wives
and producing unnumbered children without making proper
and adequate means of taking care of their BASIC needs
such as food, education and health.  I see this in tandem
with my submission,  since these crop of followers in one
way or the other receive fatawas from these ulama's,
imagine a well reknowned ulama reciting hadith to buttress
his point and advicing his students to add another wife
each time poverty strikes his house - God save us.

the upper class are still around, the middle class are now
in power, it is left for them to lift up the lower class, because
the future challenges will be worst than the one we have
at hand.

truly husnaa, your observation is in line, the better we educate
the society the better for us.  however, the leadership is now the
problem.  public schools performance on last year's neco/waec
is nothing to write home about - a total failure which shows the
less attention our governor's and other leaders give to the
education sector.

The social stratas of the North need to be examined seriously. They may be a major impediment to progress. If you have a feudal type of social structure two things are immediately apparent.
1. The lower classes are expected to show deference to those above them.
2. The upper castes have a vested interest in keeping the lower classes in their place.

Both these related conditions militate towards a careless attitude to widespread education. If you have a social structure which is wedded to a religious framework religion is very often hijacked to support the staus quo and help keep those exercising  power in their position of power.
That way the essential element of religion is debased and instead of being a agent of justice, fairness and morality it becomes a tool of the ruling classes. This is not a specifically Islamic concern. It is a very evident phenomenum in for instance some Catholic parts of the world where the church and the ruling elites have colluded to support each other in power. In medieaval Europe the churches exercised huge political powers which was only taken from them by the advent of universal democracy across Europe.
If you free religion from the grasp of the rulers religion can then point the finger at the thieves and the corrupt. 

I'm sorry I haven't contributed to this board for awhile.  I've been in some silly bridge tournament in Las Vegas, getting my head handed to me by the Islandic team.  They just blew us out of the water - I'm still having nightmares.

This is an interesting subject for me, being an economist.  I really hate to say this, but Dave makes a lot of sense.  I'd better sit down.  But, of course, I'm also going to disagree somewhat with perhaps most of you.

What Mr. Waziri says is, unfortunately, predictable, since he's a member of the "religious-industrial complex."  As he's someone who makes his living off of religion, I'm not surprised that he says it's not the imam's fault but it's the fault of the people.

Here's the underlying issue, in my opinion.  For any economy, the important driver is the mix of resources that are available and how are those resources used?  What do you have available to you in northern Nigeria?  Well, not much oil - that's in the south.  Maybe some minerals, but the major resources you can use are your land; your technology, skills and education; and your people.  If you don't get much free money like the Saudis in the form of oil or abundant minerals, you have to work hard and learn to be smart.  Look at how the Japanese have done so well being stuck out on those rocks in the Pacific.  They work all day, use all their resources to the fullest, and eat anything they can drag out of the ocean.  Raw fish is pretty horrible to me, but many people seem to like Sushi.

In America we don't worry about the economy being affected by corrupt officials.  No doubt there's corruption, as politicians seem to be arrested every month or two for putting their brother on the city payroll; however, the economy is strong enough to keep running regardless who we put in power.  That's why we don't get more than about 60% participation in the elections - most people think it really doesn't matter who's in office.  I don't think that way, and I'm sure Dave agrees, but most here think it really doesn't matter.

We use markets and capitalism to run the economies all over the country, and regardless of what you think about capitalism, you've gotta admit it gets people to produce a lot of stuff.  China figured this out a couple of decades ago and look at its booming economy now.  The People's Republic of Cheap T-shirts and Lots of Stuff at Reasonable Prices.  They make maybe half of the things I buy.  It used to be the Japanese, but their economy got so strong they had to pay their workers more and now their stuff costs as much as our stuff. 

Now let me suggest something that will probably make you mad.  Ready?  I think there are some things Muslims do as part of their religion that make it difficult for economies to grow.  There, I've said it.  Under Shari'ah law, for example, interest cannot be charged at any particular rate by banks or institutions that loan money.  This is the old Mosaic law, and some orthodox Jews have the same practice (or so I understand).  However, the problem is that the interest rate is the same as the price of money, and there is nothing better than a price system to allocate resources efficiently.  This is why Marx (Karl, not Groucho) liked capitalism as described by Adam Smith - he saw capitalism as a great way to get rid of feudalism, which he saw as a great impediment to social progress.  He also thought that communism would inevitably get rid of capitalism one day, but that doesn't seem to be happening.  But forbidding the use of a price of a good as fundamental as financial capital distorts that market so much that transactions cannot be used to facilitate other capital markets the way it happens in the west.  Why doesn't Saudi or Iran have vibrant economies, building cars and producing goods they way they do in Japan?  One reason is that the financial system is impaired by this prohibition against charging interest rates.

Another problem I see is the underutilization of a very basic resource - women.  Frankly, I don't know if this is a problem in Nigeria - are women part of the workforce and work alongside men they way they do in the west and Japan (and China)?  If they're limited in a way similar to the Arab world, this is a major waste of an important resource.  Certainly the most productive worker where I work include women, and I'd hate to have to do all this work without their help.

Which reminds me - Husnaa refers to Harold Lloyd???  Even I am not that old.  Please tell me you saw one of his silent movies in a class you took, dear Husnaa. 

And I just can't believe my eyes when I read that some imams advise their followers to reject vaccines.  For religious reasons??  The problem is that if disease is not checked by some central authority, it imposes costs throughout the country and impairs the economy.  Little things like this add up. 

One more thing before I have to go.  How long do you work?  I know that I'm like a broken record on this issue, but here we seem to get up at 6, go to work at 8, and come home at 5 or 6.  I know that many think we're crazy, but that's how things get done.  There are no easy shortcuts to economic development.

On the other hand, if I don't work on my bridge game, the Islanders will own me the next time we play, like they did this time.....have a great weekend, folks.  Jack

Well Jack, while you were away playing around in Las Vegas, I was vacationing in smoky mountains Tennessee. Have you been? I was at Westgate resort in Gatlinburg, TN, and I have to tell you, I had a blast. I loved the mountains, gorges, lakes, creeks, the white water rafting, hiking, and most importantly the weather. So guess what? I bought me a piece of real estate seeing how affordable real estate is Gatlingburg, and Sevierville. You should check it out. I'll post some pics later.

Now, in reference to the above discussion, my view is this, if people can free themselves from the grasp of religious strongholds that impede them personally and collectively, then that's one major huddle in the process of achieving self determination and personal upliftment.  Please note, religion itself is not bad, but when religion is used in ways that impact people negativity and deprives people of growth and of the ability to maximize their full God given potentials, then religion in this case isn't serving a good cause.

Take for example the numerous cases of religious riots in the north where northern Muslims so easily attack their fellow non Muslim citizens for the flimsiest of reasons that we know are all religiously inspired by some misguided Cleric actually quoting and justifying such actions using religion and religious books. In many of these deranged chaos, when 'order' is eventually restored, several hundreds of people are dead, several businesses worth millions of Naira are destroyed, public buildings destroyed, small business buildings torched, the stench of death lingers in the atmosphere, and the list goes on. Now, think about it for a second, how in the World does one expect buoyant economic activity in a region like this? And it is a lot more than this as you and Dave have listed some other factors the impact the poverty level, but unchecked religious fanaticism, and the total lack of consequence for repeat violent behavior plays a big role in the north's situation as well.

Aside from all these, without competent and knowledgeable people to actually come up with some real vision for the North, and for the rest of the country as a whole, the country would continue chasing its tail in confusion. Husnna mentioned that poverty will self eradicate if the North gets selfless leaders and  if everyone is given good education. I'm afraid the solution may have gone a little beyond good education and selfless leaders. If you have good education and selfless leadership that still defers to the feudal lords, then what's the point? There has to be a total revolution of the mind, and a complete break from the old social structures that control the politics of the north and its future. One can't keep doing the same thing every year and expect a different outcome, and this goes for Nigeria as a whole.

Yesterday I saw the Olympic opening ceremony in Beijing, and it was simply breath taking and splendid. So far, it beats all other opening ceremonies to date. Some 20-30 years ago, Nigeria, China, India, Singapore, etc used to be considered developing nations. They were very much in the same boat of progression. Today, those countries are several centuries ahead of Nigeria. Question? Could we in a thousand years put up a show like the Chinese did yesterday? The Chinese made a global statement yesterday which anchors their position on the World stage.

Let me just say this and end here. If many of the Northern state have no idea what to do with money at their disposal, please contact me. I can purchase real estate here in America especially now when the market is so weak. We can buy up resort facilities and vacation cites in different states, hire Americans to run it, and we own it. All that stolen money wasting away can be put to good use so its not all a loss-loss situation.   

Quote from: Jack Fulcher on August 09, 2008, 12:42:56 AM

What Mr. Waziri says is, unfortunately, predictable, since he's a member of the "religious-industrial complex."  As he's someone who makes his living off of religion, I'm not surprised that he says it's not the imam's fault but it's the fault of the people.

Now, Mr. Fulcher, for the sake of clarity, could you  please point to where I exonerated the Imams and blamed the people, this even impliedly?

Also why the wild accusation about myself feeding on religion?

Waziri

To be precise, Mr. Waziri, I was quoting Dan-Borno's reference to something you said, apparently in another thread, thus:

"earlier on, in my thread on who to blame, i strongly see
our religious leaders as mastermind of the serious at
hand, though uncle waziri instead you blamed it on the
followership, whereby muslims practiced only what suits
them, as you cited examples of marrying multiple wives
and producing unnumbered children without making proper
and adequate means of taking care of their BASIC needs
such as food, education and health."

Does DB mischaracterize your position?  If so, just what is your position?  Are the problems of Nigeria the fault of the religious leadership or the fault of the people?  You put yourself forward on this board as an authority on not only Islam but on religions, generally.  Aren't you simply part of the religion-industrial complex, to paraphrase Eisenhower's farewell speech at the end of his presidency?  Ever since I started to post here (in 2003?) people tell me that the practice of Islam is just part of their lives, that the concept of the separation of church and state, so prevalent in the west, is unthinkable in a state governed by Shari'ah.  If so, don't the religious authorities bear much of the blame for holding the people back economically?  My wife wants to watch a movie, so must go.  However I'd like to develop this theme further....J

Quote from: Jack Fulcher on August 12, 2008, 05:31:22 AM
To be precise, Mr. Waziri, I was quoting Dan-Borno's reference to something you said, apparently in another thread, thus:

You should have read the first post on this thread by myself to arrive at your own conclusion independently. It is then you will know if DB has misrepresented me or not.

As it is now, I am not ready to repeat what I said until you demonstrate an interest in reading me as opposed to judging me before reading me which you have proven good at doing since 2003. Why are you always prejudicial?

I am also waiting for you to present a proof of me making a living on religion. I write about religion, yes! But it is left for you to show how I live on it.

Waziri

I suspect Jack doesn't know much first hand about Islam and Waziri has a habit of addressing most issues through a religious perspective so we are entering the area of a non-productive arguement. 

Just to be clear I don't believe that Islam holds back economic development in any way and I have no problem abouit religion being an essential part of anybody's living.
What I do believe however is that throughout the history of this world unscrupulous elements have hi jacked religion and used it as a political tool to exercise power - no more so then in US today where illiberal, racist,homophobic,right wing, bible-thumping so called Christian sects exercise inordinate power over the US electoral process demonising socialists, internationalists, Islam and the gay community in the process.
George Bush is to a considerble extent the product of this. His remarks on the Russian invasion of Georgia are laughable coming from a fool who just invaded Iraq on a lesser pretext.

What the North of Nigeria has to examine closely is the feudal backgound of its social make-up, the connection this has to its religion and whether attitudes towards authority and attitudes towards enterprise are negatively affected by these factors.
There is no doubt that the religious leaders of Northern Nigeria have execised huge secular power for centuries and a feudal system has developed which has a religious core. There is an uneasy relationship in the North between the traditional religious rulers and the elected governments.
Should these elements not be completely separated?

Nuruddeen has posted an article worth reading.
However,no matter what is said about soludo and his tribalistic attitude the fact remains that the north is dangerously poor.
Education is necessary as Husnaa said for the north to thrive economically.And the education sector unfortunately is not improving.
I remember we were 60 in number when i started JSS 2 but only 12 of us wrote our SSCE,and some out of the 12 still droped out of the university.And this is our kind of attitude towards education.
I have said it before and i still say it.A clear example is the case of one of Kano state's member of the house of representatives who had to forge his secondary school certificate because he couldn't complete it.This are the kind of people that represent us.


I wouldn't want to agree with Jack that the Islamic religion is the cause of the North's Poverty.
Yes it is agreed that the religious leaders we have have given the masses a brand of religion that does not help us economically.
The religious violence is encouraged by the ulamas and it seriously affects the northern economy.Imagine something happening in denmark and people are terorrised in Nigeria,the North in particular.
Till now i there are various Ulamas that legalise 'almajiranci' and some governments are introducing policies that will further worsen the situation.

Just recently i visited a friend who is a generator mechanic.He was interviewing a young hausa man that wanted to be an apperentice in his workshop so he asked him why he wants to leave his former 'oga'.The boy told him that there's just too much work at that place. Some other people who were listening now made a comment that made my heart sink.They said to the apperentice,'shebi u want to start doing what hausa boys do ba?Running away from hardwork,you want to come here to rest abi?

This poverty phenomena is real and our attitude and the religious leaders are not helping matters.We have to be hardworking like jack said otherwise we will still be where we are.

In Kano one of the largest companies (standard and bally) has been shut down by the owners,not because of light this time but because of some useless demands by the employees who majority are from gezawa local govt and Jogana.

It is true that the political elite with the help of the ulamas manipulate the masses by using religious sentiments as well as lack proper understanding of religious laws and in junctions.These two classes are probably more responsible for the deplorable state NN is in today.
Without capable leadership, the masses cannot do much to improve the situation. I agree with Waziri that the middle class is key to the development of Arewa. I also agree that education and social re-orientation of peoples attitude toward the issues at stake have to change for the better.
Pls Jack id like to know how is it exactly that charging interest on loans is good for developing economies.
In nigeria for example where cost of doing business is extremely high, the number one obstacle(even in the south where we dont have Shari'ah) is funding. On the contrary poverty alliviation institutions are looking for ways of securing intrest-free loans as well as other cocessions like tax holidays and favorable govt policies to aid businesses.
In Islam, for every prohibition an alternative is provided.
The case of usury is not an exception.
But i beleive the welfarist approach of the governments in the north do more harm than good.

As Dave says Jack doesnt know much first hand, about Islam. Infact I do believe he knows NOTHING first second or third hand about Islam save the stereotypical images of it made infamous by George Bush.

Islam doesnt approve of charging interest because it is not the way for wealth creation. The Quran is very clear about that. God Has made mercantilism (not capitalism) lawful and usury unlawful because it is a form of parasitism. Charging interest rates leads to wealth generation for  loan sharks and shylocks only. For the ones who have to pay the accruing interest, there is nothing but misery and a miserable existence from thence to eternity. Think IMF for example; wasnt its policies and and strings attached to the loans devastating to the victimized countries who were hapless enough to collect the loans? More recently, the subprime mortgage crisis that hit the US and consequently the rest of the global economy has its roots in the inability and consequent disinclination of home owners to keep up with their mortgage (and accruing interest rates) payment on their devalued properties. 
If Capitalism were really the ideal mode of production that economists like Jack make it out to be then the rich might get richer but we wont have any poor exploited souls.
and Jack... stop being facetious ... I may just be older than Harold Lloyd; you never know...... ;D

Well, I have some time so I'll try to respond to some of this.  First, it seems that a lot of you shoot from the hip (just like Ronald Reagan).  For instance, Husnaa says my understanding of Islam comes from George Bush.  When has Bush ever even talked about Islam??  All I remember him saying is that "Islam is a religion of peace" (tell that to the Phillipines).  He's never talked about usury.  But I'll agree that I don't have a lot of personal experience with the religion.  So what?  I can still read.  I've read about the two major forms of mortage under Shari'ah, murabaha and ijara.  And I'm an economist, so I know how financial markets work. 

Let's start with the basic idea of interest, which is the price someone charges for the use of their money over a period of time.  When you put money in the bank in the west, you get an interest payment, or if you buy a bond, essentially loaning money to a company or government entity, you receive an interest payment which is fixed at the time of the loan.  The interest rate, like the price of any good, varies depending on market conditions and the supply and demand for the good.  When the interest rate goes up, more money is made available for loans.  People tend to spend less and save more.  The quantity of money supplied to the financial markets increases, in other words.  This is one tool used by central banks and governments to stimulate or dampen investment and economic growth.  For example, if inflation is rising the US Federal Reserve may increase the Federal Funds rate or some other instrument designed to increase interest rates in an effort to slow economic activity. 

The interest rate is a tool designed to affect investment and the amount of money in the markets, nothing more.  When Husnaa says "Islam doesnt approve of charging interest because it is not the way for wealth creation" this makes no sense.  All the Quran does is borrow from the old testament, which also prohibits the charging of interest.  In fact, most western nations prohibit "usury," but, like the Egyptians, the west defined usury as the charging of "excessive" or "unreasonable" interest.  The definition of these terms is left to the courts and the states. 

But it cannot be unreasonable to charge something for the use of your money.  Let me give a simple example.  If you have $100 (I use dollars because I'm familiar with that unit), you can spend it, put it in a coffee can and hide it, or you can use it to make more money.  If you can take the $100, buy some materials and create something from it, you might turn it into $120.  This is a 20% return on your investment (I simplify by assuming the value of your own labor is zero – your return is less if you pay yourself a wage).  However, let's say you're not interested in going into business but that your neighbor is, and is willing to pay you $10 for the use of your $100 for one year.  Let's say that your neighbor can make 20% using your money.  This is clearly better than putting the money in a coffee can.  Both you and your neighbor benefit from this transaction.  This is interest.  Let's say that market conditions improve so that he can make 30% using your money.  He'd be willing to pay you, say, $20 for the use of your money.  This means that the interest rate (the price of your money) has gone from 10% to 20% because the economy has improved.  Now you'd be willing to loan your neighbor $180 at this higher interest rate, and spend $80 less (plus your other neighbors would be willing to lend him money as well).  This is how interest works – it draws more financial resources into the market when more money is needed to build up the economy.  It is not "parasitism" as claimed by Husnaa.

Let's stop and look at Husnaa's statements a little closer.  She says "God Has made mercantilism (not capitalism) lawful and usury unlawful because it is a form of parasitism."  Oh, dear Husnaa, I can find nothing in the Quran that supports this statement.  Where is capitalism banned?  Where is mercantilism even mentioned?  This is the "shooting from the hip" I note earlier.  As I say, even western nations outlaw "usury," but they define it as "excessive" interest charged.  We do have problems, of course.  There are, for example, pay day loan stores, usually in the poorer parts of the city where I live.  What they do is loan you money at pretty high rates if you need money in the week before you get paid (usually once a month around here).  I would argue that this practice is usury, although they are limited by government regulation to certain rates no higher than about 25%.  I would agree that the poor are especially vulnerable to such practices, but our government tries to educate people about how to avoid losing money in this way. 

But the use of the interest rate as determined by the interplay of the supply and demand for money is helpful to the development of the economy.  And, I would argue, that the methods used by Shari'ah compliant banks to sell houses is not much different than the use of interest rates.  The negotiated price of the house, as well as the "rent" paid for the use of the house, both incorporate the cost of the use of the money used by the bank to buy the house.  Under this practice, the bank first buys the house and charges the prospective "buyer" rent for a period of time, usually 15 years if the Murabaha method is chosen, or 25 years if the Ijara method is used.  Once the agreed-upon term is reached, title is transferred to the buyer.  However, the "rental" payments include an amount for profit, which is really the interest rate.  Just how is this "profit" amount determined?  It turns out that these are percentages that vary with market conditions, just like the interest rate.  So to suggest that you avoid the problem of paying interest using Murabaha or Ijara is just fooling yourself.

The real problem is the prohibition of the use of interest when someone needs financing to invest in a project or business.  This is why I disagree with Dave regarding the effect of Shari'ah law on the economy – I argue that this is a systemic issue, and that it doesn't depend on bad and venal people running the economy to get bad results.  Let me continue this later, as I need to go home and take the wife to dinner.  Tempus fugit, my friends.  Jack

Jack you are an economist and I am not and frankly speaking, I gained some knowledge of  why central banks increase or decrease interest rates. I'd always had a vague idea but never really bothered to find out. Glad to know that I was 80% correct.  That said, I still stand by my statement, God has made mercantilism (not capitalism) lawful and usury unlawful.   The definition of usury as excessive or unreasonable interest is very vague, especially as there is no standardization of just how much is excessive or unreasonable and as you have written is left to various courts and states to determine (how messy!) As far as Islam is concerned, it is the practice itself that is condemnable. Whether the amount of interest charged is excessive or not, it is still the same thing-  Unlawful in Islam. Now you said that you havent found any place in the Quran, where it supports my argument. I am not surprised that you havent found anything, cos I dont know if you have read the Quran at all. Reading about murahaba and ijara systems of islamic financing is not reading the Quran. It is reading about an aspect of the Sharia law. Now to back up my statement let me quote the chapter and verse that this prohibition was made in the Quran. The Chapter is Suratul Baqara (Chapter 2) verse 275

(275) Those who swallow usury cannot rise up save as he arises, whom the devil hath prostrated by (his) touch. That is because they say: Trade is just like usury; whereas Allah permitteth trading and forbiddeth usury. He unto whom an admonition from his Lord cometh, and (he) refraineth (in obedience thereto), he shall keep (the profits of) that which is past, and his affair (henceforth) is with Allah. As for him who returneth (to usury) - Such are rightful owners of the Fire. They will abide therein.

So there! Now you have it Jack! that is the Qur'anic injunction on usury.
The reason why usury is disallowed in Islam is because there is no risk involved in the transaction and also because like the example you gave of lending your neighbour money to start a business with an interest rate. Only yr neighbour will incur risk. U as the lender will get back yr money plus interest regardless of whether the venture was successful or not. So there is no risk what soever involved on yr side that is haram in Islam. Rather if you were to give yr neighbor the money, go into a joint agreement with him, whereby you share the profits and loss together.. that is musharakah (I have just read an excellent paper on Musharakah, which discusses this and...oh and thanks for introducing me to the Islamic banking system. I have never read a thing about it until I had to find out what you meant by Mubaraha and Ijara). The paper can be found on this website:

http://www.westga.edu/~bquest/2004/musharaka.htm#change

You said that Mubaraha and Ijara are no different than charging interest. Well there is a difference. I have never taken a mortgage loan in my life but I believe what happens is that the bank gives you a loan which you have to pay with the accruing (compound?) interest rate, after a certain number of years. It doesnt matter if your property becomes devalued  during the period of repayment, you'd still have to end up repaying what ever was the  loan (fair enough) and the interest ( unfair in the light of the devalued property) thus exposing the debtor to risk. In the Mubaraha, and ijara, you go into an agreement with the bank which buys up a property that interests you and then the bank sells it to you at an agreed mark up price in which you can either pay lump sum or instalmentally. There is no issue of rental with mubaraha (or so I have read), that comes when mortgage payment type is ijara. That is when the property is leased out to the buyer by the bank after the bank buys the property. What I am not sure of is whether one pays  separate amounts for the renting and at the same time pays for acquiring the property from the bank or not. At any rate, the creditor in these transactions (M. or I) is more liable to exposure to some kind of risk rather than the debtor. Therefore becos of the risk involved, the creditor cant be said to be charging interest for the profit he makes from the transaction and it is a kind of win-win situation for both creditor and debtor because the creditor (the bank in this instance)is more capable of withstanding any risks and remaining solvent rather than the debtor.

Assalamu alaikum,
Facinating stuff Jack, I must say I honestly applaud the way you throw challenges and questions on Islamic issues. That is the true spirit of Islam. The spirit of open debate, discussion and sharing of ideas, towards achieving greater enlightenment for all, as long as you make yourself open to learn. The question though is, are you open to learn? (honest?).

Ok, I will attempt to address the issues you have raised by simply saying that Islam and Shariah serve as core enablers of economic development and not barriers. This is because, the Islamic civilisation is essentially a faith driven civilisation. Infact, most of the advancements of the Islamic empire in fields as diverse as medicine, astronomy, mathematics, physics, economics, philosophy etc emerged and blossomed due to the strength of Islam and shariah; and its core focus on humanity and human advancements. Have you heard of polymaths? Go to wikipedia and search for the term. Nearly all early polymaths were Muslims doing fascinating stuff when Europe was very much in the dark ages). (and therefore I correspondingly argue that most of our failures resulting in lawlessness, Murder, "terrorism", etc, all emanate from the Muslims neglect of the understanding of the core values of Islam, but alas that is for another thread).

Now let me attempt to answer your questions.

Regarding Islamic finance:

While there are others, the fundamental basis of Islamic finance is built around 3 key prohibitions as reflected in the Quran and in the sunnah:
1.   The prohibition of Interest:
2.   The prohibition of "uncertainty" within transactions i.e. you must not sell that which you don't have possession of.
3.   The prohibition of Speculation: Not commercial speculation evident in most commercial transactions, but gambling, hedging, etc.

Now your specific concerns

The prohibition of Interest.

Interest in Islam is not synonymous with profit as you have alluded to. Interest according to shariah is simply put "money earning money". It refers to money being used as a "commodity" in itself "rented" out and from which a fixed amount or percentage is earned in return. Please note that the prohibition here is not on "loaning" money out (which is permissible), but the rental which that money in itself is expected to earn. In the context of business transactions, where the money is loaned out based on a percentage basis built around potential profit as well as loss then that is permissible, because it accounts for realities in which the potential return on Investment is unknown. Therefore, such a percentage ensures that both positive and negative returns of Investment are shared by both parties (i.e. profit and loss).

To use your example, if you have $100, you can loan it out to your neighbour for a business transaction on say 10% profit/loss share arrangement. The fundamental difference here is that if he succeeds you get 10% but if he fails then you also loose. The rental value (or interest rate) must be fixed prior to the transaction being carried out, that is permissible but the transaction must take into account that no profit may be made at all; or potentially may result in a loss, in which case you stand to loose some part of your wealth. That is the basic difference.

Emanating from that is the question of interest rates. Based on the above, interest rates are not forbidden in Islam, because as you have quite rightly said, they are a measure used by central banks to determine ideal costs of borrowing at a given time but what Islam teaches is that all transactions carried out must be governed by a balanced system of risk sharing between parties. Therefore going back to your Neighbour example, the percentage can change, that is permissible only when the fixed change is agreed prior to the transaction and also, as long as the transaction itself is governed by such risk sharing methods.

You must understand that Islam is built on social cohesion and mutual interdependency between Individuals, communities and societies. Therefore, what is sought is always a means to ensure that while individuals have the sufficient framework to advance themselves and aspire to great things, all parties are adequately protected from potential exploitation and hardship. 

Regarding the Quran borrowing from the old testament

Jack you mention that Islam borrows the prohibition of Interest from the old testament. This shows that you don't quite grasp the concept of Islam (not merely the name of the religion) and its relationship with other faiths. You see Jack, Islam did not start with the prophet Muhammad (SAW). In fact, Muslims believe that the religion of God has always been 1 religion preached through history. The fundamental basis i.e. Monotheism has always been the same as preached by Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Solomon, Jesus, and all the other great personalities (which Muslims believe in). The message is thus the same, and Muslims believe that all prophets came to guide people back to the original message. Hence, while variations do exist accounting for human advancements through time, or socio-economic/political situations of the time, the fundamental message is and has always been the same i.e. there is only one God and He (i.e. the prophet speaking at that time) is the messenger of God. That accounts for the consistency in many areas and the massive similarities between the 3 "abrahamic" religions of Islam, Christianity and Judaism, including the concept of Interest as you remarked above.

Capitalism vs Mercantilism

This is an issue for which I agree with you JACK, and where I feel Hajia Husna, you are wrong. Islam does not ban capitalism. It also does not ban, capitalism, socialism, welfarism, mercantilism or any other economic system. That is a fundamental mis-understanding which many people have. It is like going into a restaurant and saying Islam bans "steak and chips".

What Islam does is provide a framework around which you may build any economic system which suits you. It only highlights those things which you must avoid. That is all. Thus if a people decide that capitalism is best for them, excellent, so long as Islamic principles are adhered to. Similarly if mercantilism is preferred, again excellent. That is why the Quran makes no direct reference to any "system", but simply highlights those things which are forbidden as part of any transaction. It accounts for the fact that societies differ, civilisations differ and generations differ. Therefore such differences will inevitably give rise to more innovative products and ways of doing things. Islam is a very flexible religion that does not impose, but simply provides sign posts of pitfalls to be avoided. So long as such pitfalls are avoided, then the system whatever it may be will emerge as permissible. Thus, using the steak and chips example above, it will simply say that the meat used for the stake should be halal, and if so, enjoy your meal!

Islam encourages individuality and limited government interference within the real economy, except on a regulatory capacity and to ensure Justice to all parties. It preaches that we should all seek the favours of Allah and it is He who provides, thus debasing the notion of dependency on others. In advocating social and charitable projects as a means to God's pleasure, it implies that individuals should therefore seek the means through which they can carry out such ventures while meeting their personal and family needs. This requires economic development and perhaps some capitalist ideals.

Drawing from Islamic history, during the time of the prophet and the rightly guided Khalifs, the role of the state was in certain key areas, i.e. Ensuring Security; Ensuring equal justice for all; Providing Infrastructure; Promoting education; Enhancing social capital and generally creating a conducive atmosphere for all round development. Economic development as they defined it, fundamentally hinged on competency, means and confidence (for further information on this, read "Mudaddima" by Ibn Khaldun, one of the best books on politics, economics and societies ever). And the role of state was to create an environment in which all three blossomed.

While I am in no way saying mercantilism was forbidden, it was not exactly the mode of transaction during the time of the Prophet (SAW) and the rightly guided caliphs. Interference in individual transactions (which mercantilism was riddled with) was not carried out except during the latter years of the Islamic empire.

The difference between Muraba, Ijara and non-Islamic financial instruments

Your assessment of Murabaha is correct exept for 1 salient omission. You are correct in saying a fixed amount is charged for repayment over a given period. But as I have explained above, that is entirely permissible within Islam and does not constitute interest. It is infact profit and profit is very much allowed. This is because the commodity being traded is the "house" and not "money". Thus the fixed charge with added percentage is profit, determined by a rate, all permissible in Islam. (but such a rate must be fixed at the time of the transaction and may perhaps not be referred to as "interest" rate).

Now the salient omission (and thus the fundamental difference with mortgages), is that the property in question is bought by the bank (and thus it becomes the owning party) and is then sold to you (or me) at cost + profit (fixed at the time of purchase). While the repayment period can be negotiated, this overcomes two distinct issues forbidden in Islam:

1.   Fluctuations of repayment rates arising due to variations in Interest rates during the repayment period.
2.   The purchase of the property by the bank and then selling it to you creates a 2 party business transaction in which the selling party actually has the commodity at hand before selling it, hence overcoming the ban on selling what you don't have.

So unlike interest rates, the repayment amount is fixed at the time of the transaction (or an agreed formula is to be used) and is not subject to the variations of interest rates. By owning the property at the time of the transaction, the "uncertainity" prohibition has been overcome. It also means that, it is the property that is being traded for a profit (which is permissible) and not the money to buy the property being traded for a profit (which is not permissible). Therefore, in borrowing your words Jack, I am not "fooling" myself in knowing (not thinking) that these instruments differ from traditional mortgages and very much conform to the teachings of Islam.

The place of Shariah in Economics.

Shariah has an immensely positive effect on economics because it provides a framework around which transactions between individuals can be very easily and effectively carried out in a manner mutually beneficial to both parties. The problem is not that of shariah Jack, but the sad inability of we as Muslims to understand Economics on the one hand with all its beautiful innovations, and also Shariah with all its very simple and fundamental concerns, ultimately proffering lasting solutions that serve the desired goal, i.e. the benefit of humanity.

Sadly though, where we fail in understanding the economics and how to get the best out of it, you fail in understanding the Shariah and what it says and does not say. You must understand the concept of Islam first, including its spirit in order to understand its restrictions. It provides social guidance on what to avoid but then says, anything not prohibited is therefore allowed. Thus it allows for infinite innovations to cater to emergent human needs with minimal restrictions to ensure that the goal of "benefit to humanity" is always sought.

Thus, where we see failures in certain societies, widespread ignorance, lack of eduction, an indiscriminate disregard for life, corruption, conflict, tribalism, backwardness, etc (I was trying not to say Northern Nigeria), the fault remains ours as Muslims and not the message of Islam. To paraphrase an African-American saying Jack, "Hate the PLAYER, don't hate the GAME".

Hope this helps. I also have some words about the way out of poverty in Northern Nigeria but that would be for another time Insha Allah

As-salam alaikum

Quote from: sheriff 05 on August 17, 2008, 01:31:30 PM
Assalamu alaikum,


Capitalism vs Mercantilism

This is an issue for which I agree with you JACK, and where I feel Hajia Husna, you are wrong. Islam does not ban capitalism. It also does not ban, capitalism, socialism, welfarism, mercantilism or any other economic system. That is a fundamental mis-understanding which many people have. It is like going into a restaurant and saying Islam bans "steak and chips".

Hold it right there Mallam Sheriff, where in my write up did I mention that Islam banned capitalism? I wrote Islam allowed mercantilism (not capitalism) not in the sense of negating capitalism but in emphasising that mercantilism is not exactly the same as capitalism. At any rate if we are honest with our selves the sort of exploitative capitalism practiced by the west (deindustrialization where by extremely cheap asian labor is employed and the returns or profits on investment  are astronomical ) is haram in Islam.

Apologies Hajia Husna I realise I may have put words in your mouth.

I know a chap who has this good idea of how to make decent mordern housing affordable for the rural poor.
His target is the poorest communities/states of nothern nigeria.
No 1 problem is funding.
Because his project is not really commercially attractive for financiers (people who have no initiatives only loads of money), his noble and humane intentions still remain just dreams....
So like my friend always likes to say- the poor can get rich only if the rich will get richer

Quote from: Jack FulcherWhen the interest rate goes up, more money is made available for loans.

Sure but most people cant afford to take loans then.

Break it down for me some please Jack, in an economy like nigeria's where there are more uncertain variables of donig business and probability of making a loss in business is extremly high(although not as high as intrest rates) how is the Shari'ah's prohibition of interest bad for economic development?

The credit card culture which i understand is based on lending money charged at intrest only creates an illusion of wealth which is unfortunate cos western economies like to tout it as a measure of good standard of living
Even more unfortunate is the fact that it has started to creep into developing economies.

neozizo

Very good points. On credit cards, most of them charging alarming rates of interest, the UK now has personal debt equal to the total personal debt of all of Africa and all of South America combined. The charging of interest on loaned money automatically writes inflation into Western economies. Many people in UK have no more credit and are using a huge part of their disposable income paying interest on credit card debt so sales of everything are dropping, prices are rising to cover shortfall in turnover and businesses are going to the wall all over the place
Capitalism operates well as long as there are plenty of people and lots of underdeveloped countries and economies to exploit.
It operates on the false premise that production and the selling and distribution of produced goods has infinite capacity for expansion.
The economies of the Indian sub continent and China are rapidly overhauling the economies of Europe and the USA which are living on borrowed time and vast cash overborrowing not only by business but also by the nations themselves.
The UK's national debt has tripled over the last ten years. The US economy is now at the mercy of the Chinese who hold huge amounts of US currency.
We will see a new world order in the next few years. Perhaps the US and the UK will have not enough money to invade and occupy other people's countries.

What I like about you Maigemu is fadar gaskiya komai dacinta.

Husnaa

Don't know "dacinta"

dacinta means its bitterness.
Daci means bitter or bitterness
Fadar gaskiya komai dacinta... telling the truth no matter how bitter it is

Quote from: Dave_McEwan_Hill Capitalism operates well as long as there are plenty of people and lots of underdeveloped countries and economies to exploit.

It seems its in the best intrest of the west for us to be perpertualy poor.

Husnaa is right about u Dave.
I feel the same way too
I remember how i always respected ur views about a discussion we had a while back in this forum about how petroleum was/is a curse to Nigeria.

Still waiting Jack

I look forward to what there is on Kano Online every day. God willing things will improve in Nigeria and I live long enough to see it (and even get back there for a visit). I would love to be able to say to my grand-daughter "Let's go and visit your mother's country. It's doing well" But it is up to Nigerians - and the solutions to the problems of the north lie with Northeners

"Still waiting Jack"  Yes, and I owe you and others a response in this thread, but I hate to say that there just aren't enough hours in the day and my job has be backed up, plus my sweet wife, the one who gives my life direction through her delicate orders, has planned a little vacation for us and the dogs starting tomorrow morning.  We'll drive up the Oregon coast, stopping wherever it looks good and drive down when we're bored.  I've never been up the Oregon coast, so this should be fun.  However, this means that I cannot respond in any satisfactory way until I return after 9/1.  I'm really sorry, because I'd like to respond to all of the great points made by the several contributors here.  I have time for one or two quick statements only (OK, who said "hooray!"?  A little decorum, please.)

I really want to read and digest sherrif 05's post, as it seems to be very thorough and contains a lot of important stuff.  I'll print it out and take it with me - I promise not to let the dogs eat my homework. 

A couple of comments on Husnaa's post.  First, I never said I couldn't find evidence that the Qur'an prohibits usury - that prohibition is very clear and easily found.  What I couldn't find was proof of your statement that the Qur'an allows mercantilism but not capitalism.  I find no mention of either - just a couple of references to trade.  Trade is fine, but ownership gives the incentive to produce what people want and to price those goods efficiently.  The mercantilists were simply a step toward capitalist production and distribution.  It was a step away from feudalism, which is one of the problems the developing world still has, including Africa. 

Second, I need to read this paragraph a few times more:

"You said that Mubaraha and Ijara are no different than charging interest. Well there is a difference. I have never taken a mortgage loan in my life but I believe what happens is that the bank gives you a loan which you have to pay with the accruing (compound?) interest rate, after a certain number of years. It doesnt matter if your property becomes devalued  during the period of repayment, you'd still have to end up repaying what ever was the  loan (fair enough) and the interest ( unfair in the light of the devalued property) thus exposing the debtor to risk. In the Mubaraha, and ijara, you go into an agreement with the bank which buys up a property that interests you and then the bank sells it to you at an agreed mark up price in which you can either pay lump sum or instalmentally. There is no issue of rental with mubaraha (or so I have read), that comes when mortgage payment type is ijara. That is when the property is leased out to the buyer by the bank after the bank buys the property. What I am not sure of is whether one pays  separate amounts for the renting and at the same time pays for acquiring the property from the bank or not. At any rate, the creditor in these transactions (M. or I) is more liable to exposure to some kind of risk rather than the debtor. Therefore becos of the risk involved, the creditor cant be said to be charging interest for the profit he makes from the transaction and it is a kind of win-win situation for both creditor and debtor because the creditor (the bank in this instance)is more capable of withstanding any risks and remaining solvent rather than the debtor."

I'm not really sure what all this means, but are you trying to say that the prohibition against charging interest is designed to remove the risk of a financial transaction?  And that the Qur'an prohibits the assumption of financial risk by the Muslim?  I really don't think that this is what the Qur'an says, mainly because it's impossible to get rid of the risk.  No matter what financing method is used, risk is always there and someone pays for the consequences of bearing the risk.

I really have to go.  Have a good and productive week, my friends, and I'll talk with you later.  Jack

Wish u great vacation.

Hopefully, one day, u might love to spend it in notherrn Nigeria.
Sai ka dawo

A serious outbreak of constructive comment is breaking out all over Kano Online.

Quote from: _Waziri_ on August 06, 2008, 01:33:30 PM
Re: North's vicious circle of Poverty

In the 26/07/08 edition of Weekly Trust Newspaper is the cover story with the above title, which discussed the poverty phenomenon in Northern Nigeria in the light of the much attention the issue has garnered in recent times, especially when the Central Bank of Nigeria's governor,  Professor Charles Soludo drew attention to it - though reiterating what he once said a year past - at a lecture organised by the Northern Development Initiative in Kaduna,  some weeks ago, asking the federal government to declare the situation in the North, a national crisis.

Many people differ on the different causes and solutions to the problem as it affects the region and the country in general. While some of us are quick to identify with positions as that of Mallam Salihu Lukman, a development Economist interviewed in the same edition of the paper, which squarely blamed it on the leadership of Northern Nigeria, that cannot, among other things, fully account for the 17 Trillion Naira it collected from the federal coffers between 1999 to 2007, in the light of efforts at poverty alleviation. Others, as our brothers across the Niger, will rather blame the religion and culture of Northerners as the main culprit, with the justification that the Northern leaders are not any worse than the Southern leaders and yet the Southerners are better up, so the explanation must be in the values, religion and culture of Northerners, or at a stretched imagination, laziness – as seen in certain statement issued by Arewa Consultative Forum (ACF) and reported by The Punch of 31/07/08. This perception is further strengthened by the content an interview conducted by the Weekly's reporter, Ja'afar Ja'afar and published in the same edition, under a title that says it all, 'I was given N50, 000 capital, but I married with it', and described Mallam Garba, the interviewed, as  "a real-life stereotype of a Hausa man.", who cares not about, "what to eat or what to wear" and is "very indifferent, un ambitious and a man with a simplistic outlook to life."


This piece intends to scrutinise the two positions advanced, in the hope of providing insight into the nature of the processes that led the North to this sorry state economically.

Here it is important to understand the fact that there is a wide gap of difference between, culture, religion, values on one side, and in this context, from world view, which typifies the behaviour of an average Northerner like Mallam Garba. The truth of the matter is religion or culture has little to do with human taste, instinct and desire to survive on a certain standard. It only governs choices on how to achieve a standard. This is why we see a lot of Northerners who are not like Mallam Garba in style, despite them sharing same religion, culture and values with him.

A close examination will reveal that the mechanism of progress that made the Hausa the most vibrant and enterprising nation in the whole of West Africa, at a time of the past, is still here. It is also not laziness as, today; nobody comes from any region to farm for them the food they survive on daily.  It is like those seeking for an answer to why the Northern Nigeria is in its state now despite the fact of its elite holding power in the composition of the present Nigerian nation-state for over 40 years, should try some reading in classical power and relational politics and its implication on groups' socio-economic development. In this, one will see that the North is where it is today only in respect to the popular saying that one cannot eat their cake and still have it as it is with all other natural phenomena.

The seemingly correct explanation is the Northern elite, who are responsible for  expanding the paradigm and worldview of  average Northerners situating them at par with their counter parts across the world,  got power, in the composition of Nigerian nation, in the late 1950s and in order to keep to it they chose the option of eliminating the middle class among them, because the likely thing to happen is the middle class, if allowed, might grow in economy, influence and strength enough to wrench power from the upper class. This is what happened when Gowon in the early 70s and Shagari in the late 70s, allowed their own to grow strong in the military. They just did away with them in 1975 and 1984 respectively and clung to power making sure they did not make the same mistake their predecessors made. They continued the practice of axing their own economically, intellectually and otherwise.

On the other side, the other regions, with especial example of Awo of the South West, were not faced with anything of political control of Nigeria and as such they continued to strengthen their middle class as the upper class realized the need to empower their own as a comprehensive defence against the onslaught of Northern upper class elite. The middle class served as an armoury to the upper class. They continued the battle for them until the early nineties when IBB annulled the popular June 12 election.

Then came the climaxes, the June 12 was ethnicised and regionalised, the South West had a good number of media outfits and middle class individuals with the right education and economic resources to sustain the fight while in the North of early nineties, very few among the middle class could do well in countering the others in the intellectual fight at the level of resources. At the end of the day, after the demise of Abacha, the Northern elite were confronted with no option than to dash power to the South West in 1999. They have won the fight.

When Obasanjo realized his bearing and started targeting these Northern elites it still remained that they had none to defend them save the few middle class created during Abacha regime under the Buhari PTF. Many young Northerners then have merited contracts and made a couple of millions. They were the ones who established focused media houses, maintained Newspaper columns, and started getting back at Obasanjo and his policies.

And of course, the era of Obasanjo was the era of South West participating in national politics. Even though they already have a vibrant middle class, and sound economic structure that benefited from the regime's economic considerations at the centre, it is evident that they also suffered from what the North earlier on suffered from as their elite started a war of control of the region's social and cultural resources. This war recorded many casualties as even people like Bola Ige had to take exit, brutally killed.  Also the control politics did not allow their governors to work in unison with progress of the region. In fact they were rated among the worst in performance.
On his part, Obasanjo had to seek for his loyalist outside his own region because trusting and elevating his regional men in the centre may lead to excessive ambition which in turn may result in a palace coup akin to what happened to his predecessors like Gowon and Shagari and their people whom they trusted with the leadership of the military.

This is about the story of Northerners in Nigeria and what came up in their economic development. It is also the reason why there was no time when Northerners talked much about their economy more than the time of Obasanjo's leadership. Being it they left the leadership position of the country and the upper class were being attacked by Obasanjo mercilessly. Of course, it was also then that the leadership in the North achieved most, more than the many years it clung to power at the centre.

This is why some of us think the North can have meaningful economic development only if power is made to stay away from its elite for several years while others think, Northerners may have learnt their lessons and will now work assiduously to develop the region. 
The whole of this truth is particularly important to stress here given the pronouncements of the governor of Niger State, Alhaji Mu'azu Babangida Aliyu, who tried to attribute the present economic predicament of the North, as widely reported by Newspapers around the country, to an obscure international conspiracy.

If indeed there was a conspiracy it was a Northern Political Class Conspiracy which lost itself in the game of control politics over time.

As it is now the solution to the problem is not one of a short term as the generation of youths without the relevant  skills necessary for survival in formal economy now as the ones to be produced in the recent future are very much in the league of the 86% -  quoted percentage of the poor - among us. So an affirmative action, with the intent of taking care of our distant future, which appeals to laws and legislations, is the only options. The solution, though good, is not totally in the much taunted, revitalisation of the Agricultural Sector in the North, for Anambra State that is among the highest in the country's economic index is not an agricultural haven or oil reservoir. After all the Agricultural Sector, if revitalised, may end up serving the economic need of others if there is no enough skilled manpower with right national and international market strategies among the Northerners. Here it is particularly important for the government to invest hugely in human capital development as Northerners need to have more of a world class exposure in various disciplines both academic and entrepreneurial,  necesary for survival in the capitalist world.

We certainly, also, cannot continue in the pretentions of creating welfare states. No how can a government continue to afford a free education for all as the Bauchi State House of Assembly is recently heard to be saying it would put Qur'anic Schools and its Almajirai in the state's budget. This is not practicable as even the formal Western Type of schools that are government owned are not maintained adequately. In fact the example of Kano State which tried to do that as reported in the same edition of Weekly Trust is not encouraging.

So instead of us to continue sailing the dream boat, legislations must be made and enforced that will compel parents to bear more the responsibilities of the children they produce – since religiously it is their duty - as they sometimes recklessly and indiscriminately marry without regard to religious injunctions in keeping and maintaining a family. Thus they send the children out to others cities, hawking and scavenging as Almajirai, in the Qur'anic Schools they could always find in their own villages. It is these Almajirai , growing in the streets with a very bad taste of what life is, with wrong upbringing, wrong heroes, wrong worldview and wrong skills of survival in the 21st century world, that  form the bulk of the poor people in Northern Nigeria.

Also such legislations must lead to the creation of agencies, as in other Muslim African countries, like Egypt, Libya and Tunisia, which will be saddled with the responsibilities of accessing the economic and mental worth of anybody who intends to marry or add another wife as many among us are tilted toward abusing the privilege associated with polygamy by placing satisfaction that comes from their being with many wives above their responsibilities of seeing to the maintenance of the family. They plan to produce as many children as they can without planning to give them the best as the religion requires of them. As such we end up with many children that cannot be catered for adequately by their parents, growing in the streets with a terrible taste of what life is, with no abilities to think and save themselves or even those around them in the context of the challenges daily living presents.

It is my humble opinion that family is the barometer of all communities, and keeping political correctness aside, we will need to understand governance as meaning making attempts to make subjects of a defined community disciplined and responsible in all of their dealings and this starts with the channels and processes of procreation in the community. Failure to address issues at this level signals the triumph of anarchy as it is seen in the threat we are facing from the monsters of poverty in Northern Nigeria due to, largely, among other things, our neglect of legal provisions in the formation of family units in both religion and our secular living.


My friend Ibrahim Waziri,

You really made a very interesting observation, which is quite commendable. I think you have said it all, but the problem of poverty in Northern Nigeria is what my friend Dave said in one of his reply to you i.e. the problem of the North lies with the Northerners. I have xrayed all the posts and what everybody said from different points of view. However, I differ in opinion with all what Jack was trying to assert. Indeed, the explanation  from Sheriff was quite astounding. He took his time delving into the crux of the matter with passion.

Mine is to engage anyone of you here in any argument or debate on the"matter at issue" which has hitherto remain but a calamity to every northerner living within and in diaspora. When I see people like Adamu Adamu of Daily Trust Newspaper decending on Prof Soludo vehemently, I feel completely bemused. Many writers from northern extraction condemnd what he said. But I think Soludo is right. My very good friend Garba Deen Muhammad made a lengthy treatise on the issue of Soludo's much ado about the North, to which he said was sarcastic in approach.

My only problem with Soludo's critics is: if Soludo could be blamed for phasing out northerners from Nigeria's scheme of things, one should then ask: who allowed him to do what he likes? Was it not the northerners that allowed thembselves to be driven like a rudderless ship that lost bearing focus and direction?

Ibrahim Waziri, I have to really symphathise with you fro not receiving the desired comments from most of the Kanoonline advocates. Majority have not understood the context of your own writings-except Dave-Ewan-Hill. He was the only person that really unveiled what you wrote.

The issue is:

There is need for northerners to quickly go back to the basics. We need to formulate policies and rules that will prevent people from unprecedented marriages that usually do'nt last. There is the need for government to start furnishing those that are fond of adding wives and producing several children that they could not educate and take care of. I know people will criticise you over what you hypothesize, but in the long run I assure you they will begin to see reasons into what you said.

I remain your humble friend Jibo.

Quote from: Nuruddeen on August 23, 2008, 10:32:29 PM

Ibrahim Waziri, I have to really symphathise with you fro not receiving the desired comments from most of the Kanoonline advocates. Majority have not understood the context of your own writings-except Dave-Ewan-Hill. He was the only person that really unveiled what you wrote.



I remain your humble friend Jibo.[/color][/b]

That was a rather pompous statement on yr part Nuruddeen JIbo. Poverty in the North is not precipitated by indiscriminate marriages amongst the northern poor. The indiscriminate marriages are one of the consequent effects of the poverty rather than the cause. According to Waziri, the reason for the incessant poverty in the North had its roots in the 'deliberate destruction' of the middle class by the upper class. Well I'm not so sure that that is a reason, however, I wont contradict since he knows Nigeria's post colonial and contemporary history better than I, not having studied it at all. However I reiterate that education and good leadership are the key to the solution of poverty in the north. At least in that Waziri and I are in agreement since he talks about investing quote "hugely in human capital development as Northerners need to have more of a world class exposure in various disciplines both academic and entrepreneurial,  necesary for survival in the capitalist world." unquote.

I find myself broadly in agreement with Waziri on the deliberate destruction of the middle class. The social structure of the North leads the upper class to empowerer a very small proportion of the people to be their tame management agents and keeps the rest of the population down.

All there is to be said has been said by our forum elders. May Allah have His eternal mercy upon you, amin. Wallahi I wish I could write as such. I even printed some papers, for I know would some day help me in my studies. A special regard goes to Waziri for initiating the thread and of course Sheriff05. My compliment.

And to the thread's topic, I wholeheartedly believe with what Waziri, Dave and co-others have to say. Yes, upper class deliverately lead way to the demolishing and rather suffocating of middle class. Thus, we only now have upper and lower class. And that, I reckon, is not the case in many developed neither in the developing countries.

Oh Allah, bring bliss to our father land--Nigeria.

Quote from: Dave_McEwan_Hill on August 25, 2008, 11:36:32 AM
I find myself broadly in agreement with Waziri on the deliberate destruction of the middle class. The social structure of the North leads the upper class to empowerer a very small proportion of the people to be their tame management agents and keeps the rest of the population down.

You see Dave, that is the crux of my contention. That is the fly in the ointment for me. Somehow I cant believe that the destruction was deliberate. I think it was the result of incredible bad and selfish leadership but not necessarily with the intent of destroying the middle class so to speak. Besides, we cant say this about the first northern leaders; ppl like Sardauna and Tafawa Balewa who were the epitome of northern aristocracy and yet were true northern patriots and selfless to boot. It was after the death of these stalwarts that we began to get leaders without vision. Honestly, what ever anyone will tell me about the leadership of Yakubu Gowon, I'd say that he was weak and had no direction. Infact it was a tragedy that he was chosen to lead. Imagine he was the one who was saying at the time of his tenure that Nigeria had so much money and didnt know what to do with it. Can you beat that? Meanwhile, there are the poor to educate (even though education was free then), roads to be built, transport infrastructures to sustain, maintain and improve. What he did was dish out money to neighboring countries gratis because we didnt know what to do with it. . I even heard that some head of state (presumably Gowon), once made a monetary donation to Hong Kong during the heydeys of the Nigerian economy. Oh God! I want to weep. Any one who's been to HK now, knows that even some of the so called western countries cannot hold a candle to it  in terms of development, and it amazes me when I see western tourists gawking at some of the architectural wonders of Hong Kong, or browsing the shops for hi tech gadgets that are overflowing from shops and stalls that you'd think they were there for free, to be picked up like pamphlets by passersby.

The only bright spot on the horizon was the Kano State governor of the time, Audu Bako, who initiated development projects that made Kano State what it is today. As far back as the tenure of Rimi, some of those projects were still being implemented from the original blue print. Elsewhere all over Nigeria with the exception of one or two states, there was virtually no  infrastructural developments to speak of. When Murtala came to power, he wanted to restructure Nigeria and get rid of corruption, unfortunately he was at loggerheads with the west and according to a conspiracy theory he was assassinated at the behest of the CIA. I have actually read a document which was part of some declassified information from the CIA archives, running riot on the internet. They were sent to me by my brother who made a conscientious effort to print the whole and mail them to me back in  the mid 1990s. (I didnt have carte blanche access to the internet back then).

OBJ as a military was also ineffectual. Back in those days, it was thought that OBJ was a man who accepted the reigns of power unwillingly, albeit maybe bcos he probably thought that the sword of Damocles was now hanging over his head, and he wasnt all that keen to part with that bodily appendage! So he quickly handed the reigns to Shagari, another weak and ineffectual leader. However what I must stress is that although both Gowon and Shagari were ineffectual, they were not corrupt personally. Ppl around them were, but they were not and consequently didnt amass the sort of wealth associated yrs later with the Abacha and IBB clans.

After Shagari, Nigeria had another chance to make good with the arrival of Buhari and Idiagbon on the scene, but unfortunately, their reign was cut short by the most villainous of Nigeria's leaders  IBB. If the charge of deliberately destroying  a segment of society - the middle class and not only the northern middle class but all of Nigeria's middle class - can be attributed to anyone, it is to IBB. The tragedy of IBB is that he is indeed an incredibly intelligent, and charismatic man. One whom if his priorities had been inclined towards the common man in Nigeria rather than his own personal gains, he would have made an incredible leader. No less so, Abacha who might not be as intelligent and charismatic as IBB, but nevertheless was dogged, tenacious and fearless. He was also surprisingly, concerned with the problems bothering Nigeria. It is on record that Abacha was the leader who stabilized the yoyoing forex and inflation rate. The exchange rate stayed at N80 to the dollar for much of his tenure and the cost of food items and other necessities also stabilized during his time, although lecturers had a hard time with him trying to improve their lot at the time. Abacha  tried to resuscitate the comatose rail transport sector and also initiated the now much remembered with nostalgia PTF program. I was listening to the BBC Hausa program 'tubali' or 'gane mani hanya'  the other day and some one was saying that in some hospital somewhere, they were still using PTF funded bedsheets on the hospital beds and he was on the verge of tears due to frustration about the worsening situation of Nigerian hospitals despite massive injections of trillions of Naira by the PDP governments into the health sector. 

Abacha's tenure was dogged with corruption, but I refuse to believe that the man was personally involved himself even if his family was. I always think of it as a twist of fate that he whose priorities were  more selfish was able to separate his family from public affairs while he who was more altuistic could not say boo to relatives meddling in politics simply becos they happened to be temporarily close to the seat of power by accident of birth. Any one remember that the then IG of police  Ibrahim Kumasi was once slapped by Mohammed Abacha? How arrogant can one get?  I had a relative who was indefinitely incarcerated on the direct orders of Mohammed Abacha, from the yr his brother died in an air crash to the year that Abacha died, and the family was stripped of its power and therefore my relative regained his freedom.

I have rambled on too much, and anyone reading this piece would wonder what on earth I am getting at. Well maybe what I am trying to say is that one cant categorically accuse the northern leadership of destroying the middle class. If it was the leadership also, then for most of the time it was the peripheral leadership not the direct leadership, because many of the northern leaders that I mentioned were blameless in terms of amassing a personal fortune especially the earliest set of leaders who are supposed to be the root cause of the demise of the northern middle class. The peripheral leaders of course are the auxilliary members of the government, who are supposed to keep the machinery of government well oiled... the ministers governors perm secs etc. Those are the ones who due to ineffectual governance by the numero unos in office, were able to destabilize the economy through bad decisions  or plain self aggrandizement, and even they were probably not aware how their sins of yesteryears would be visited upon the future generations, up until now at any rate.


Oh Jack you posed a question Islamic banking for me saying that u didnt really understand what I was trying to say.

Quoting Jack:
I'm not really sure what all this means, but are you trying to say that the prohibition against charging interest is designed to remove the risk of a financial transaction?  And that the Qur'an prohibits the assumption of financial risk by the Muslim?  I really don't think that this is what the Qur'an says, mainly because it's impossible to get rid of the risk.  No matter what financing method is used, risk is always there and someone pays for the consequences of bearing the risk.
Unquoting Jack

I am not trying to say that the prohibition against charging interest is designed to remove the risk of a financial transaction. I am trying to point out that there must be some risk attached to all business transactions in order for the element of ribah (interest) to be removed from the transaction. I hope that makes sense to you. Its actually the opposite of how you understood statement.

Interesting post, Husnaa. You are probably right. The lack of a middle class in the North may well not be deliberate but the accidental by-product of a basically feudal social structure - but I would say it is also the inevitable by-product of such a system, which was appropriate in the past but outdated now in a world that needs a population largely empowered by education..

However the biggest reason for the poverty of the north is probably the neglect and mismanagement of the huge agricultural potential of the region.

I had a fair amount of contact with Audu Bako - a true visionary and a huge loss to Kano on his untimely death. He knew exactly what had to be done to release the huge potential of Kano State but much of his vision died with him.

Now i am confused.
Who are the middle-class if i may ask?

Quote from: HUSNAA on August 25, 2008, 08:00:58 PM

Quote from: Dave_McEwan_Hill on August 25, 2008, 11:36:32 AM
I find myself broadly in agreement with Waziri on the deliberate destruction of the middle class. The social structure of the North leads the upper class to empowerer a very small proportion of the people to be their tame management agents and keeps the rest of the population down.

You see Dave, that is the crux of my contention. That is the fly in the ointment for me. Somehow I cant believe that the destruction was deliberate. I think it was the result of incredible bad and selfish leadership but not necessarily with the intent of destroying the middle class so to speak. Besides, we cant say this about the first northern leaders; ppl like Sardauna and Tafawa Balewa who were the epitome of northern aristocracy and yet were true northern patriots and selfless to boot. It was after the death of these stalwarts that we began to get leaders without vision. Honestly, what ever anyone will tell me about the leadership of Yakubu Gowon, I'd say that he was weak and had no direction. Infact it was a tragedy that he was chosen to lead. Imagine he was the one who was saying at the time of his tenure that Nigeria had so much money and didnt know what to do with it. Can you beat that? Meanwhile, there are the poor to educate (even though education was free then), roads to be built, transport infrastructures to sustain, maintain and improve. What he did was dish out money to neighboring countries gratis because we didnt know what to do with it. . I even heard that some head of state (presumably Gowon), once made a monetary donation to Hong Kong during the heydeys of the Nigerian economy. Oh God! I want to weep. Any one who's been to HK now, knows that even some of the so called western countries cannot hold a candle to it  in terms of development, and it amazes me when I see western tourists gawking at some of the architectural wonders of Hong Kong, or browsing the shops for hi tech gadgets that are overflowing from shops and stalls that you'd think they were there for free, to be picked up like pamphlets by passersby.

The only bright spot on the horizon was the Kano State governor of the time, Audu Bako, who initiated development projects that made Kano State what it is today. As far back as the tenure of Rimi, some of those projects were still being implemented from the original blue print. Elsewhere all over Nigeria with the exception of one or two states, there was virtually no  infrastructural developments to speak of. When Murtala came to power, he wanted to restructure Nigeria and get rid of corruption, unfortunately he was at loggerheads with the west and according to a conspiracy theory he was assassinated at the behest of the CIA. I have actually read a document which was part of some declassified information from the CIA archives, running riot on the internet. They were sent to me by my brother who made a conscientious effort to print the whole and mail them to me back in  the mid 1990s. (I didnt have carte blanche access to the internet back then).

OBJ as a military was also ineffectual. Back in those days, it was thought that OBJ was a man who accepted the reigns of power unwillingly, albeit maybe bcos he probably thought that the sword of Damocles was now hanging over his head, and he wasnt all that keen to part with that bodily appendage! So he quickly handed the reigns to Shagari, another weak and ineffectual leader. However what I must stress is that although both Gowon and Shagari were ineffectual, they were not corrupt personally. Ppl around them were, but they were not and consequently didnt amass the sort of wealth associated yrs later with the Abacha and IBB clans.

After Shagari, Nigeria had another chance to make good with the arrival of Buhari and Idiagbon on the scene, but unfortunately, their reign was cut short by the most villainous of Nigeria's leaders  IBB. If the charge of deliberately destroying  a segment of society - the middle class and not only the northern middle class but all of Nigeria's middle class - can be attributed to anyone, it is to IBB. The tragedy of IBB is that he is indeed an incredibly intelligent, and charismatic man. One whom if his priorities had been inclined towards the common man in Nigeria rather than his own personal gains, he would have made an incredible leader. No less so, Abacha who might not be as intelligent and charismatic as IBB, but nevertheless was dogged, tenacious and fearless. He was also surprisingly, concerned with the problems bothering Nigeria. It is on record that Abacha was the leader who stabilized the yoyoing forex and inflation rate. The exchange rate stayed at N80 to the dollar for much of his tenure and the cost of food items and other necessities also stabilized during his time, although lecturers had a hard time with him trying to improve their lot at the time. Abacha  tried to resuscitate the comatose rail transport sector and also initiated the now much remembered with nostalgia PTF program. I was listening to the BBC Hausa program 'tubali' or 'gane mani hanya'  the other day and some one was saying that in some hospital somewhere, they were still using PTF funded bedsheets on the hospital beds and he was on the verge of tears due to frustration about the worsening situation of Nigerian hospitals despite massive injections of trillions of Naira by the PDP governments into the health sector. 

Abacha's tenure was dogged with corruption, but I refuse to believe that the man was personally involved himself even if his family was. I always think of it as a twist of fate that he whose priorities were  more selfish was able to separate his family from public affairs while he who was more altuistic could not say boo to relatives meddling in politics simply becos they happened to be temporarily close to the seat of power by accident of birth. Any one remember that the then IG of police  Ibrahim Kumasi was once slapped by Mohammed Abacha? How arrogant can one get?  I had a relative who was indefinitely incarcerated on the direct orders of Mohammed Abacha, from the yr his brother died in an air crash to the year that Abacha died, and the family was stripped of its power and therefore my relative regained his freedom.

I have rambled on too much, and anyone reading this piece would wonder what on earth I am getting at. Well maybe what I am trying to say is that one cant categorically accuse the northern leadership of destroying the middle class. If it was the leadership also, then for most of the time it was the peripheral leadership not the direct leadership, because many of the northern leaders that I mentioned were blameless in terms of amassing a personal fortune especially the earliest set of leaders who are supposed to be the root cause of the demise of the northern middle class. The peripheral leaders of course are the auxilliary members of the government, who are supposed to keep the machinery of government well oiled... the ministers governors perm secs etc. Those are the ones who due to ineffectual governance by the numero unos in office, were able to destabilize the economy through bad decisions  or plain self aggrandizement, and even they were probably not aware how their sins of yesteryears would be visited upon the future generations, up until now at any rate.


Oh Jack you posed a question Islamic banking for me saying that u didnt really understand what I was trying to say.

Quoting Jack:
I'm not really sure what all this means, but are you trying to say that the prohibition against charging interest is designed to remove the risk of a financial transaction?  And that the Qur'an prohibits the assumption of financial risk by the Muslim?  I really don't think that this is what the Qur'an says, mainly because it's impossible to get rid of the risk.  No matter what financing method is used, risk is always there and someone pays for the consequences of bearing the risk.
Unquoting Jack

I am not trying to say that the prohibition against charging interest is designed to remove the risk of a financial transaction. I am trying to point out that there must be some risk attached to all business transactions in order for the element of ribah (interest) to be removed from the transaction. I hope that makes sense to you. Its actually the opposite of how you understood statement.

My dear Husnaa,

I think I stand by what I said i.e. some of us do not understand what Ibrahim Waziri wrote. People like you have even derailed from the issue under discussion. Instead of you to concentrate on the issue of poverty and the way forward, you have succeeded in bamboozling us with grammar about leadership problem of Nigeria, which every Tom, Dick and Harry knows. You took lengthy time writing on an issue that has no direct bearing with the matter at issue. I have said it inter lia that there are certain factors,indices and indicators that cause and aggravate poverty in Northern Nigeria. The leadership that you have been talking about is just one out of many factors that cause poverty in our society.

If for instance, Ibrahim's piece was on "Leadership and Governance in Nigeria", then you have every right to delve into it with magnanimity. Or had it been the topic read " Democracy and Governance in the North: The Pros and Cons", you can also write amply on the matter. But what I realised here at Kanoonline some people are good at discussing  issues that they think can write and derive pleasure. Some write for the sake of writing i.e without substance. Instead of us to see Husnaa telling us about the social angles of poverty problems that hav to do with unemployment, poor parental care and upbringing, bad orientation, and matrimonial  negligence in our homes that made the North a centre of national discussion, you were busy making unnecessary taciturnity about leadership. Mind you, we are not aying the leadership is not part of the problem, but what do you think is the solution now? When I say our people must by all means device a means of curtailing unprecedented marriages that usually do not last, I mean it Husnaa. And I still reiterate that there is supposed to be a complete change in our social policy, principle and procedure that shoudl guide our marital life. We need to have at least minimum level of respect and civility to the Sunnah of our beloved prophet. What good of a marriage if one cannot sustain it for Allah's sake my dear? I am not one of those people that are opposed to the institution of marriage.

Let me come down to your level a bit my dear Husnaa. For example, what is happening in Northern Nigeria to day is, you will see a Northerner who doesnt have three square meals in a day, but once he gets a small opprtunity, instead of improving his life by changing it for the better, he adds  wife. And this is common amongst the low income groups of Northern Nigeria. The middle class that you were busy making noise about are no exception i.e ven if they still exist. I quite agree with you that there is no middle class in Nigeria today. To me, what we have are the "HAVES" and the "HAVE-NOTS". But this is a subject of another day. I remain loyal my dear Husnaa.

This is a very interesting and productive debate developing.
I have conceded that the destruction of the "middle class is probably accidental rather than deliberate but is the inevitable product of a system which confers too much unquestioned power onto those at the top.

The big question is how to turn the North around and an attitudinal as well as practical shift is probably required.

Quote from: Dave_McEwan_Hill on August 28, 2008, 06:26:09 PM
This is a very interesting and productive debate developing.
I have conceded that the destruction of the "middle class is probably accidental rather than deliberate but is the inevitable product of a system which confers too much unquestioned power onto those at the top.

The big question is how to turn the North around and an attitudinal as well as practical shift is probably required.

Yes! Dave. The question is what do we do now since damage has been done. We just can't afford to continue delving into the political angle of the problem as Husnaa did. We know the leadership has problem and contributed negatively to the masses of the North. But the issue here is: LET US TALK ABOUT THE ECONOMIC AS WELL AS THE SOCIAL ANGLES OF THE PROBLEM, WHICH IS WHAT IN MY VIEW THE INITIATOR OF THE THREAD(WAZIRI) MEANS.

Quote from: Nuruddeen on August 28, 2008, 06:11:36 PM


My dear Husnaa,

I think I stand by what I said i.e. some of us do not understand what Ibrahim Waziri wrote. People like you have even derailed from the issue under discussion. Instead of you to concentrate on the issue of poverty and the way forward, you have succeeded in bamboozling us with grammar about leadership problem of Nigeria, which every Tom, Dick and Harry knows. You took lengthy time writing on an issue that has no direct bearing with the matter at issue. I have said it inter lia that there are certain factors,indices and indicators that cause and aggravate poverty in Northern Nigeria. The leadership that you have been talking about is just one out of many factors that cause poverty in our society.

If for instance, Ibrahim's piece was on "Leadership and Governance in Nigeria", then you have every right to delve into it with magnanimity. Or had it been the topic read " Democracy and Governance in the North: The Pros and Cons", you can also write amply on the matter. But what I realised here at Kanoonline some people are good at discussing  issues that they think can write and derive pleasure. Some write for the sake of writing i.e without substance. Instead of us to see Husnaa telling us about the social angles of poverty problems that hav to do with unemployment, poor parental care and upbringing, bad orientation, and matrimonial  negligence in our homes that made the North a centre of national discussion, you were busy making unnecessary taciturnity about leadership. Mind you, we are not aying the leadership is not part of the problem, but what do you think is the solution now? When I say our people must by all means device a means of curtailing unprecedented marriages that usually do not last, I mean it Husnaa. And I still reiterate that there is supposed to be a complete change in our social policy, principle and procedure that shoudl guide our marital life. We need to have at least minimum level of respect and civility to the Sunnah of our beloved prophet. What good of a marriage if one cannot sustain it for Allah's sake my dear? I am not one of those people that are opposed to the institution of marriage.

Let me come down to your level a bit my dear Husnaa. For example, what is happening in Northern Nigeria to day is, you will see a Northerner who doesnt have three square meals in a day, but once he gets a small opprtunity, instead of improving his life by changing it for the better, he adds  wife. And this is common amongst the low income groups of Northern Nigeria. The middle class that you were busy making noise about are no exception i.e ven if they still exist. I quite agree with you that there is no middle class in Nigeria today. To me, what we have are the "HAVES" and the "HAVE-NOTS". But this is a subject of another day. I remain loyal my dear Husnaa.

Lol I seem to have ruffled someone's feathers...
I doubt that I have bamboozled anyone except you, seeing that the one person whom you deemed to have understood what Waziri's post was all about seemed to have found  my post not only interesting, but was inclined to agree with my line of argument.

if u dont like my style of writing, you either get used to it or ignore my posts. Up to you. I was taught to make writing an article or topic interesting instead of making the reader feel as if he/she is trying to digest sawdust.  As a journalist, I'm sure u must be aware of that.

PS. The ramifications of Waziri's topic are many. There are many facets to it, not just from what u consider we should look at it. I am a firm believer in analyzing the larger picture instead of the immediate and obvious. What is more, the obvious solutions are good governance education and resuscitating agricultural production in the north as Dave keeps reminding us.  The act of men diverting funds to get married can be thought of as a social malaise, and as far as I am concerned has little to do with the cause of, but a great deal to do with social effects of poverty. Obviously an educated man wont behave in that fashion as we all know. So educate the masses and see if u dont bring about a revolution.

PPS. I remain loyal also (whatever that is for)

Can someone please answer my question as to the definition or example of the Northern middle class?
To me i see alot of the middle class.

It's hard to give precise definition of the middle class in any society. It tends to be a well educated and property owning class holding responsible positions in middle and upper management in public or private enterprises and including the professional classes of doctors, teachers amd lawyers etc but also local and national government workers, business people and company owners.
It is probably easier to say what it is not. It does not include royalty, nobility and traditional rulers and clergymen and religious leaders at one end or at the other end  the uneducated, the unemployed, manual workers, agricultural labourers, market traders or labourers, many people living in rural areas in the developing nations, beggars etc.
In UK for instance probably 40 - 50% of the population would consider themselves middle class. In Nigeria would 10% be a more accurate assessment? 

Lol I seem to have ruffled someone's feathers...
I doubt that I have bamboozled anyone except you, seeing that the one person whom you deemed to have understood what Waziri's post was all about seemed to have found  my post not only interesting, but was inclined to agree with my line of argument.

if u dont like my style of writing, you either get used to it or ignore my posts. Up to you. I was taught to make writing an article or topic interesting instead of making the reader feel as if he/she is trying to digest sawdust.  As a journalist, I'm sure u must be aware of that.

PS. The ramifications of Waziri's topic are many. There are many facets to it, not just from what u consider we should look at it. I am a firm believer in analyzing the larger picture instead of the immediate and obvious. What is more, the obvious solutions are good governance education and resuscitating agricultural production in the north as Dave keeps reminding us.  The act of men diverting funds to get married can be thought of as a social malaise, and as far as I am concerned has little to do with the cause of, but a great deal to do with social effects of poverty. Obviously an educated man wont behave in that fashion as we all know. So educate the masses and see if u dont bring about a revolution.

PPS. I remain loyal also (whatever that is for)
[/quote]

Not really my dear Husnaa. I, of course can't say that I do not like your writing(s), but it's just that most of the time you waste precious moments digressing on issues that are unnecessary. So generally I get tired of your stuff, especially when you derail from  issues that are nonetheless important to the subject(s) under discussion.

However, I am deeply elated for saying that [/b] "...seemed to have found  my post not only interesting, but was inclined to agree with my line of argument".

Yeah my dear. We sometimes agree to disagree. That's the beauty in debate. If you don't know: arguments, criticisms, comments and observations are never a threat to anyone i.e if done on constructive bases. One thing that I enjoy throughout your lengthy but empty assertions are mostly the political than your apolitical school of thought. I therefore implore you to kindly stick to the subject matter whenever discussing matters of regional importance. To me, making elaborate and cheap statements usually  make someone lose interest. I remain your humble friend Nura.  

Thank you Dave for the definition.
From it i can say that the middle class are not eliminated in the north.

Quote from: gogannaka on September 03, 2008, 08:40:48 AM
Thank you Dave for the definition.
From it i can say that the middle class are not eliminated in the north.

The key to a middle class existence  is economic, GGNK. The professions that make up a middle class society: doctors lawyers teachers for example, go hand in hand with excellent remunerations and a good earning power, that enables u to live in the middle class societal zone. If you dont have that economic power, you can call yrself middle class but you wont be living the middle class life even if u are employed as a doctor, or lecturer or teacher or whatever other profession that should put you in that category.

The key to a middle class existence  is economic, GGNK. The professions that make up a middle class society: doctors lawyers teachers for example, go hand in hand with excellent remunerations and a good earning power, that enables u to live in the middle class societal zone. If you dont have that economic power, you can call yrself middle class but you wont be living the middle class life even if u are employed as a doctor, or lecturer or teacher or whatever other profession that should put you in that category.
[/quote]


What of those that are not professionally working? Going by your own defintion, are they not amongst the middle class? Do you mean one has to get "excellent remuneration" for him/her to be a middle class citizen? What of those that live in the village but have legal tender and are by no means poor? This definition of middle class I think has to be revisited my dear. But I don't know what parameter or measure you used in arriving at your own definition of a middle class.

Now back to the subject under discussion: POVERTY in the north.

Husnaa, what I had wanted you to understand since is this

1. When Waziri brought up his topic, I had expected cogent explanation that will adress the matter in its entirety.

For instance, when Soludo earnestly remarked on the poverty stricken north, ppl were vehemently accusing him, but I think its uncalled for.

When I see you accusing leadership, I was not happy with your own analysis based on the following reasons:

1. The poverty in the north that we are talking about, and apportioning blames to leaders, who are the longest serving presidents in Nigeria? Are they not northerners? What stopped them from salvaging the region from its current status?

2. In the whole country, education in the north is the cheapest compared to other parts of the country, but why is it that the North has the lowest enrollments?

3. If you compare northern states with their southern counterparts, we are opprtuned to get scholarships that are virtually not obtainable in the southern states. But even at that, we don't want to go to school.


4. We have extended families that we don't care about their welfare. We marry many wives and keep producing children that we can't even afford for their upbringing.

5. We always blame government and leadership, but do we expect government to do everything for us? Can't we engage ourselves in entrepreneurial ventures, apprenticeship and vocational training(s) that we can rely on?

Please Husnaa, tell me how many well-to-do northerners built homes for the poor and elderly as an assistance? How many rich northerners engage, assist and/or finance youth empowerment projects? I  am talking of the Dangotes, Dantatas, Rabius and co. Look, ppl like Dangote, instaed of basing his companies in the north, most of them are in the south, and the sole beneficiaries are southerners.

So the north should really find its predicament in its own pple. The people of the north i.e Husnaa, Jibo Nura, Waziri-the poverty analytical guru(laughs), Gagannaka, Dan Barno and co are the real problems of the north. Why because they don't have what a Hausa man say: Kishi da zuciyar su taimaka wa mutanensu su. Sai dai su taimakawa kan su da 'ya 'yan su da jikokin su.

May God help us. Ma'assalam

Nura, da alama dai u really want to argue for the sake of argument.
Define the following:
1) those not professionally working.
2) have legal tender... what's that (if u are not referring to a document)?

BTW, location strictly speaking is not a parameter for deciding who is or isnt in the middle class category. That is why one can live in a village and still be middle class.
The parameter I used is one's economic earning power. I think I made that clear in my statement. Dave has given a fair assessment of who is and isnt considered middle class. What I added to that is that its the amount of money that u earn that puts you in that category despite being in what are considered the middle class professions. In fact  such earning capacities are inherent  or supposed to be inherent in these professions and that is why one can consider one a middle class citizen if one holds down such jobs. However what we have witnessed in Nigeria is that this is not really the case, if we consider the earning capacity of some, like teachers for example. You can hardly regard a teacher as enjoying a middle class life when a headmaster earns an annual salary of less than N 200,000.

Well if u expected cogent explanations from what Waziri posted then keep looking or expecting, I am sure eventually someone will satisfy yr olympian expectations. On the other hand, since we seemed to have come up short in yr estimation, why dont u oblige us with the explanations. You can only be disappointed by our responses if u yrself know what they should be. So instead of criticizing, why dont u write them down so we can all benefit.
PS u have to come down to our level from yr olympian heights though.

Quote from: HUSNAA on September 04, 2008, 07:00:26 PM
Nura, da alama dai u really want to argue for the sake of argument.
Define the following:
1) those not professionally working.
2) have legal tender... what's that (if u are not referring to a document)?

BTW, location strictly speaking is not a parameter for deciding who is or isnt in the middle class category. That is why one can live in a village and still be middle class.
The parameter I used is one's economic earning power. I think I made that clear in my statement. Dave has given a fair assessment of who is and isnt considered middle class. What I added to that is that its the amount of money that u earn that puts you in that category despite being in what are considered the middle class professions. In fact  such earning capacities are inherent  or supposed to be inherent in these professions and that is why one can consider one a middle class citizen if one holds down such jobs. However what we have witnessed in Nigeria is that this is not really the case, if we consider the earning capacity of some, like teachers for example. You can hardly regard a teacher as enjoying a middle class life when a headmaster earns an annual salary of less than N 200,000.

Well if u expected cogent explanations from what Waziri posted then keep looking or expecting, I am sure eventually someone will satisfy yr olympian expectations. On the other hand, since we seemed to have come up short in yr estimation, why dont u oblige us with the explanations. You can only be disappointed by our responses if u yrself know what they should be. So instead of criticizing, why dont u write them down so we can all benefit.
PS u have to come down to our level from yr olympian heights though.

"The key to a middle class existence  is economic, GGNK. The professions that make up a middle class society: doctors lawyers teachers for example, go hand in hand with excellent remunerations and a good earning power, that enables u to live in the middle class societal zone. If you dont have that economic power, you can call yrself middle class but you wont be living the middle class life even if u are employed as a doctor, or lecturer or teacher or whatever other profession that should put you in that category".
[/quote]


Let me take you by your words my dear. In the above quoted post you said  "The professions that make up a middle class society: doctors lawyers teachers for example, go hand in hand with excellent remunerations and a good earning power, that enables u to live in the middle class societal zone".

But I asked: what of those that are not profesionally working? I mean those that are not doctors, lawyers or teachers. Because you were busy listing people who are educated and are professionals. That is why I said what about those people in the village who have legal tender (money) but are not working professionals? I think you owe me an answer here my dear Husnaa. And I am happy you provided thus  "...location strictly speaking is not a parameter for deciding who is or isnt in the middle class category. That is why one can live in a village and still be middle class".

I quite disagree with your own understanding of a middle class categorisation  in Nigeria. I argued inter alia that what we have in Nigeria are the "Haves" and "Have-nots" i.e the poor and the rich. The so-called middle class that you are telling us are virtually non-existent in today's Nigeria. I mean by definition they exist but  practically are phased out from Nigeria's economic scheme of thing. Hope am understood?

However, I asked you and am still gonna ask ab ini tio that : what parameter did you used in giving example  that doctors, lawyers, and teachers are middle class? What of if their salaries cannot meet up with their insatiable needs and demands? For instance if the so-called "excellent remuneration" cannot give them what they want.

I think if you don't know what you are saying is better to get informed. So let me come down to your level as demanded.

What is lacking in your own analysis is that the so-called middle class that you are talking about comprise both the working and non-working classes. We have people in the village that are qualified to be middle class even though not working. The ones that you have listed are the working class citizens i.e the lawyers, doctors and whatever.

My bone of contention is: I don't think its only doctors or lawyers that constitute middle class in Nigeria. There are thousands in the village who live average life and are by implication qualified to be amongst the middle class.


On the issue of parameter, I think where you goofed is: for one to judge whether one is a middle, lower or upper class, there is need to revisit your ordinary level economics very well; not just making statements that are unfounded.

I think we can judge one's class i.e poor, rich or middle by the following economic parameters:

1. The per capita income of individuals in society. The level of one's earnings-be it per head or cumulative.

2. Marginal propensity to consume vis-a-vis level of spending, earning power(as assserted by you), disposable and taxable incomes and so on and so forth.

Others are: National Income-out of which you get the GDPs, GNPs, NNI etc.

These I think determines one's status in society. They are also used determine not only individual'a but also country's economic progression and depression.


They indeed determine whether a country is operating a mercantile capitalistism or social economy; depending on the centrality or specificity of economic control. For example, one can deduce whether few individuals or majority have power or say in an economy. In Nigeria, I don't have to tell you which is which, because as far as I am concerned its an economy in transition where majority of the citizen are living amidst plenty.Nonetheless, very few are controlling the economy. Some analyst prefer to call and analyse the concept of this econometrics as political economy.



I apologise for engaging you this far. But honestly,  I did not intend to drag you much on this, because it is a total derailment from the initial matter under consideration i.e POVERTY(laughs).

I remain your best friend Nura.

(Sigh)
I'm not sure if I am NOT speaking dutch to you Nuruddeen.
But never mind, enough of this argument, its not fruitful.
BTW we are not derailing from the main point we are just at a tangent with it

As I suggested earlier class is a little difficult to define and isn't entirely about money. For instance a market trader may become very rich but will never be considered upper class and is not sure even to be considered middle class and is more likely to be considered always lower class. The next generation of his family may move socially upwards however.
On the other hand a traditional ruler may in fact be materially fairly poor but is always likely to be considered upper class.
Middle class is a combination of responsible behaviour, decent manners, adequate education, adequate financial situation, sensible and responsible employment and usually ambition to become upper class( which the real upper classes find amusing to watch)

Nura, you have succeded in confusion us gaba daya.
if at all the examples provided by your dear husnaa
on middle class is incorrect, we await your example
of a middle class in the present day nigeria?

Quote from: Dan-Borno on September 05, 2008, 10:51:27 PM
Nura, you have succeded in confusion us gaba daya.
if at all the examples provided by your dear husnaa
on middle class is incorrect, we await your example
of a middle class in the present day nigeria?

DB thanks for the support. Nura is so implacable.

Quote from: Dave_McEwan_Hill on September 05, 2008, 08:49:56 PM
As I suggested earlier class is a little difficult to define and isn't entirely about money. For instance a market trader may become very rich but will never be considered upper class and is not sure even to be considered middle class and is more likely to be considered always lower class. The next generation of his family may move socially upwards however.
On the other hand a traditional ruler may in fact be materially fairly poor but is always likely to be considered upper class.
Middle class is a combination of responsible behaviour, decent manners, adequate education, adequate financial situation, sensible and responsible employment and usually ambition to become upper class( which the real upper classes find amusing to watch)

I think that the definition is slightly different for different cultures. For example what you described is a   typical British or western middle class society, where manners are all part of the package, i.e. how you eat how you speak, which part of the town you reside in and all that.

But I still maintain that in a place like Nigeria for instance where a person from childhood has had a typical village life but managed to become educated and get a professional job, then he obviously transits into the middle class category by virtue of the different lifestyle that he may begin to enjoy due to his new found economic freedom and his totally different outlook on life as opposed to one who is not western educated.
On the other hand,  one might hold a professional job like lawyer or journalist or doctor and still have low earning capacity in our dear Nigeria. So while he still regards himself as  middle class by virtue of all that education and perspective on life, he enjoys a less than middle class lifestyle especially in our societies where a man tends to burden himself with the cares and travails of others besides himself and his immediate family.

Quote from: HUSNAA on September 05, 2008, 05:04:26 PM
(Sigh)
I'm not sure if I am NOT speaking dutch to you Nuruddeen.
But never mind, enough of this argument, its not fruitful.
BTW we are not derailing from the main point we are just at a tangent with it

Is alright my dear.

I think we better put an end to the debate. However, it is important to define the concept of the middle class in toto eventhough you hypothetically said what you wrote was in tandem with Waziri's initial thread.

The Middle class are people that are increasingly squeezed by sagging incomes and soaring expenses.
They are the ones whose  median household income dropped .At the same time, the average family is spending more on basic expenses, such as firewood, kerosene, housing, food, education and health .
My dear Husnaa they are families with children who saw their child care costs soar. To cover these soaring expenses, many have had to turn their meager earnings into consumption. Nearly 60% of their total disposable income goes to paying off their daily expenses.

There have never been meaningful attempts by Nigeria's government to salvage their own situation since the depression of their economic status. So many families including those in the village are standing right on the edge. They have been cut down in every discretionary spending area they possibly can.
Their standard of living is tearing a hole in the family that they simply can't make up.
Indeed, they are the ones who experience the impact of rising costs, unemployment and stagnant wages on the economy.
Though there  is a silent cry going out as middle class families begin to talk about how to pay and cater for their daily demands, which is geometrically increasing day in day out.
Husnaa, it is important to know and appreciate the fact that the middle class families are the engine of our economy, but their earning power and economic security has actually declined in the last fifteen years. Though Nigerian lawmakers focused their questions on comparing the great strides made in productivity with stagnation of wages, unemployment, and social insecurity, but middle class of those days contribute largely to productivity.
Nonetheless, increasing economic inequality is to blame the country's economic policy. While the middle class is contributing to productivity, the rewards are increasingly going to the wealthy.
That is why  David Kreutzer, senior policy analyst for the more conservative Heritage Foundation, said it's more accurate to follow the wages of actual workers over time, or income per head, but not to compare the median wage figure.
To help these struggling class ther is the need to funnel funds to the state, particularly for infrastructure projects. This could serve as an important source for much-needed jobs.
Smartly crafted, David averred that the middle class has the potential to help generate more economic growth until the imbalances and necessary corrections in key markets play themselves out.
Hear him:
"Infrastructure investment serves a dual role of deepening investments in public capital while creating good jobs for people that might otherwise be un- or underemployed."
High fuel and food costs, coupled with miniscule raises and shrinking home values, led more people to say that their personal finances have worsened than at any time since early 80s.
The future looks grim to them, too. Three-quarter of those surveyed said they expected the nation's economic troubles to continue over the next year, the highest level since 1980. They predict the unemployment rate will jump at unprecedented rate.
Looking at government statistics, however, things don't look that dire, which is one reason why economists are dickering over whether the country is in a recession or boom. Unemployment is at a relatively higher point and inflation is running at a greater pace.
Most experts are predicting more bad times ahead, but there's still no consensus on whether the economy is going to do good than harm.
Hoyt of Economy.com argues that every income strata is feeling it.
Hear him:
"The wealthy are hurting from the roiling stock market, the middle class from falling home prices and working folks from rising prices".
Husnaa, folks are having considerable difficulty making their personal family budgets given their pay and prices, because the prices they face most commonly in day-to-day life are rising faster than both inflation and their meager earnings.
Their investment portfolios aren't doing well, either.
All this financial stress comes at a time when Nigerians are living amidst plenty. This is sad!
So you can't be sure you know exactly where we are or where we're going. Middle and lower class consumers are afraid that the light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train.
But the cardinal question here is: What will we do now Husnaa?

Let me go off topic a bit.

Quote from: HusnaaI have actually read a document which was part of some declassified information from the CIA archives, running riot on the internet. They were sent to me by my brother who made a conscientious effort to print the whole and mail them to me back in  the mid 1990s.

Were they the documents that implicated even Obasanjo? The ones that showed his close relationship with the likes of Henry Kissinger and the CIA?

Is it available on the net now?

Quote from: gogannaka on September 07, 2008, 08:55:43 PM
Let me go off topic a bit.

YOU ALWAYS PARAMBULATE BY GOING OFF TOPIC.

Were they the documents that implicated even Obasanjo? The ones that showed his close relationship with the likes of Henry Kissinger and the CIA?

Is it available on the net now?

GOGANNAKA, DO YOU LIKE IT?  I CAN GIVE YOU IF U WANT TO C.

(http://www.studenthousing.lon.ac.uk/uploads/pics/cartoon_of_woman_whispering_in_mans_ear.jpg)

Leadership is the bane of the north.  The north can be turned around for the better through individual and collective responsibility at the states and local govts levels.