Zimbabwe; what are the real scenes there?

[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

Mugabe is doing no harm at all to the west. He is doing huge harm including murders to his own people. Go figure,as the say in the US.

[gogannaka]

Dave the west is the one doing harm to the Zimbabweans as a result of the uncountable economic santions imposed on the poor country.
In an effort to punish one person (Mugabe), for not being thier puppet the west is putting millions of people in hardship. That is how it is always. That was what happened in Iraq also.
The people are made to believe through the biased media that the west is actually fighting for the people.
Zimbabwe cherished a buoyant economy under Mugabe but because he redistributed land in accordance with the country's laws the nation is meant to suffer(forcefully).

Jack made a very lousy point here:

This has nothing to do with black and white - it has to do with stealing private property by the state.  This is something that happened under feudalism and the US Constitution prohibits this explicitly (they can't take my property without the courts getting into the process and, if it's for a good reason, they have to compensate me for it).  We believe that ownership of assets gives the owners an incentive to take care of it and use it productively.  If Mugabe had simply taken the property and transferred it to farmers with skills and experience (regardless of race), we might not have reacted much.

First,Zimbabwe has no obligation whatsoever to abide by the US constitution. It is a soveriegn nation governed by its own constitution.
Second, how did you know that the land wasn't transferred to skilled farmers. Please review Husnaa's post.


As King suggested, America and follow follow Britain had better refrain from poking too much into other countries affairs.
And Jack you seem to have the beleif that America gives so much aid to Africa that Africa cannot survive without that aid.You got it wrong man. Africa is coming up Jack, just like the way the US is going down.
Just recently,after all the arms embargo imposed on Sudan,China went ahead and supplied warplanes and weapons to Sudan. When Libya was santioned by the US and 'follow follow',France still went there to invest.
America has better things to take care about than Zimbabwe and the lousy Govt is misleading you guys. Take care of your credit crunch,Job losses,Low(est) consumer confidences etc and leave poor Zimbabwe alone.

[HUSNAA]

One of the reasons why I showed resentment at the thought of white African farmers and which Dave seemed to take exception to the use of the word white, was because I dont know of any black American farmers or any black European farmers or Australian. I mean I have NEVER seen a photo or heard of a black man who is a landed farmer (an esquire so to speak) in America or Europe. Oh there are plenty of hired hands hired laborers and the like in the US, but honestly I havent even ever seen a photo of a black American man driving a threshing machine or a harvester. Why is that?

[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

The West has imposed no sanctions on Zimbabwe though the United Nations tried to do so last week but this was not voted through due to veto by Russia and China. This attempt at veto was in direct response to Mugabe's murderous reign of terror against his own people and his destruction of democratic government in Zimbabwe.

It's time Africa stopped hiding behind excuses than ran out of time decades ago. What is happenig in Zimbabwe today no longer has anything to do with the bad,greedy and stupid behaviour of "whites" that caused such problems in Africa in the past.
Until Africa stops the comfortable habit of blaming all its problems on other people nothing will be sorted.

[King]

So what do you call the American and British economic sanctions on Zimbabwe? The one that has led to a 1000% inflation in Zimbabwe's economy? As for Africans blaming Whites and the West for its problems, I have already pointed out the fallacy of your opinion. But just to indulge you, fine, we'll stop blaming Whites and the West for our problems when Whites and the West withdraw quit engineering destructive policies in Africa. How's about that? We'll stop blaming when you all stop damaging and start taking responsibility for past sins. Pay African nations reparations for colonialism and the plundering of their society then and now. Pay African Americans reparations and go back and undo all the horrors that was committed against them. I assure you, we'll stop complaining then.

[HUSNAA]

It's time Africa stopped hiding behind excuses than ran out of time decades ago. What is happening in Zimbabwe today no longer has anything to do with the bad,greedy and stupid behaviour of "whites" that caused such problems in Africa in the past.
Until Africa stops the comfortable habit of blaming all its problems on other people nothing will be sorted.

Agreed Dave, so what the blazes were Mark Thatcher and co -whites BTW- doing trying to engineer a coup (in which African country was it)? You cant tell me it was altruism that prompted their actions. Wasnt it rather  'bad greedy and stupid' of them to think  so retrogressively that they can enact the years immediately following the post colonial era when the African leaders were deposed with impunity by the white ex colonial masters?

[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

To return to the main point. Mugabe is murdering and starving his own people. That's the fault of Mugabe and those who make apologies for him. The "west" has nothing to do with the crops in Zimbabwe.
And you're both doing it again. All the corruption and incompotence and all of Africa's failings are down to the "whites". Most of Africa has been "free" for over half a century. What you are telling me is that we may be free but we are not able to be in control. That's a shameful admission.
Mark Thatcher and some acquaintances (including some black chaps) tried to organise a coup in a small African country. What about the nearly 100 other coups in Africa?
Nigeria is for instance one of the worlds richest countries with a budget economy much larger than the vast majority of European countries. Look at it!
Good people in Nigeria should be making sure that Nigeria's wealth is at the disposal of all the Nigerian community and that all your infrastucture is made to work.

Until Africa takes full responsibilty and exerts full control of all of its affairs it will be stuck comfortably blaming other people for its own failings.

[Muhsin]

I'd written a very long reply earlier on but my system went off. Or more rightly the power (NEPA) went off. Ok. Let me re-write few more lines.

muhsin, I have heard this excuse from you so many times on yr posts.  If you have nothing to say, (dont write an excuse) *edit* OR LIE.

Wallahi ke ko Hajiya bakya daga mini kafa! :o  You need not to be euphemistic!

Let me tell you and anyone who may thinks as such; wallahi tallahi summa tallahi, I have never done anything like this-- to say your pejorative excuse! Whats the reason? Don Allah ask how eratic is power supply now at BUK's library or CIT? And thats where I mainly browse. Haba dan Allah... :'(

[HUSNAA]

Well check your posts and discover that that is what you have been doing... making excuses. If NEPA isnt available, u wont even be able to post anything to begin with and if u were writing and NEPA went off, it'd go off with everything you've written and then u cant post anything. So it has nothing to do with erratic power supply. Write something ppl will read with interest.. that is all.

[Jack Fulcher]

Hi all.  I've been out for awhile on a project for work, so I've neglected this forum shamelessly.  However, it looks like Dave has been doing a good job standing up for my main positions, which are:

1.  Zimbabwe is suffering not from economic pressure from the US or Britain, but from the serious mismanagement and plundering of the economy by Mugabe, his family and associates.  This guy has billions of dollars hidden all around the world in bank accounts, and one thing the opposition parties are trying to do is track this down. 

2.  Africans (and other minorities who consider themselves oppressed for many good and bad reasons having to do with historical actions by others) have fallen into the trap of victimhood, if the posts here are any indication.  I can give you a personal example.  My family came to California during the American Depression of the 1930s.  We were uneducated and had to take horrible jobs and couldn't buy housing in the "good" part of town.  We were called Okies (derived from Oklahoma, one of the states) and were generally shunned by the "good" people.  We never fell into the trap of thinking of ourselves as victims, however, and my dad and mom (as well as my grandparents, apparently) worked hard at several jobs until we could afford to live in a house.  I never heard my dad say anything bad about the "better" people, although I personally saw how they treated him.  It wasn't lynching, of course, and I don't claim that he had it as bad as African Americans, but it was a great lesson for me - don't complain if there's a problem.  Go out and fix it yourself.

3.  It's easy being a victim.  Victims never have to answer for their bad decisions, and little is expected of them because they're so "oppressed" by the powerful.  It's a drug no different than alcohol.  Actually, it's worse than alcohol because you can still work if you drink (my dad was an alcoholic who worked 12 hours a day).

4.  I think that if the wonderful people of Nigeria were to use its great natural resources and work hard to build the economy, produce electricity, build roads and schools and hospitals, and generally work hard to improve the infrastructure, within a generation it could have an economy that dominates Africa and is highly competitive with us and most of the Americas.  It would require that you all stay in school, get up early in the morning, be the hardest worker at your job, and stop complaining about what the whites have done to you.  Today is the first day of the rest of your life.  Design a plan with reachable goals and start down that road.

5.  I know that King is going to complain about how I'm a know it all, but I don't care.  King is a bad influence, in my opinion.  Husnaa, on the other hand, is a good model when it comes to writing and research.  She still buys into the "whites are still ruining my life" story, but look at how that gives so much power to politicians who want to blame others for their bad decisions and incompetence.  Don't give them that power.  Insist that they produce results and, if they don't, make sure you replace them with politicians who will work for you.  You all have the power, and they know it.  Don't let them distract you with vague enemies.

I really didn't want to write much - I'm flying out to Las Vegas for another bridge tournament.  I'll say hi to Bill Gates for you.  Jack

PS:  What do you all think of what Gates and his foundation is doing in Africa?  Is it good, should he keep it up, increase his efforts, or just stop now because, in King's words, it's none of our business?  If you have an opinion, I'll pass it on to Gates if I see him.  (Don't let me mislead you - I don't really know him, but I sometimes play against him and his team in these tournaments.  I'm just trying to sound like a big shot, which I'm not.)

[sheriff 05]

Hmm.. I was hoping to refrain from commenting on this thread as I think the level of discussion here is way beyond me.. However, I'm tempted to drop in my two pennies worth..

While I agree with you Jack on the problem of "victimisation" excuses and the negative effects it has on individual responsibilities, I fear your argument here has a tragic flaw. Without a shred of doubt pro-activity is a problem in many African communities and it has led to our continued endemic decline. Our inability and sheer unwillingness to solve our own problems in certain cases (just look at Sudan!) continues to do us more harm than good, all clearly pointed out by Dave, yourself and also King and Hajia Husna (in the sudan ICC warrant post). Now comes the part where I disagree. Are we as Africans right to blame foreigners (I don't use the expression "whites") for a lot of our problems? I say yes for a few problems but not for all. Like honour, I tend to give blame to whom blame is due. I'll explain why (and also dare to suggest solutions).

Most of Africa's problem lies in three key spheres: Religion/culture; politics; and economics. While we take full responsibility for the first, the latter two spheres are riddled with the impact of "externalities" way beyond the power of regular Africans like myself.

Taking economics as the key point here, the global nature of trade implies that for example, tax decisions in Australia can damage the Ugandan economy. It's synonymous with the butterfly effect. Hence without even sending a single marine, or "coalition" force to take out "hostile" regimes, poverty alleviation through African agricultural development can be spurred by favourable taxation and economic policies in say for example the US. An example in point.

Subsidies, tax breaks and importation blocks mean that the US and European markets are pretty much un-accessible to African and south American farmers. That means the incentive to produce in order to service the obvious demand is reduced. Farmers are stuck with excess produce which they cannot sell and even when they do, (due to supply exceeding demand) they sell in already saturated markets, at rock bottom prices. Conversely, the non-farmers among them who go and get (the very few available) jobs as civil servants, in banks etc seem to be earning more with considerably less physical effort. So the farmer thinks, why am I wasting my time? Agricultural development then stagnates and starts to decline the direct effect of which is that food supplies begin to dwindle. Compounding things further, donor agencies then flood the market with free/dead cheep food to feed the poor who have lost their livelihood through the trade imbalance (which they, the donor countries, were partly responsible for). That then means that even the poor farmers who still produce food, have no reason to do so anymore, after all, who will buy from you at a price when they are getting from else where for free? Also for the poor farmers, why should they waste any energy farming when they can cue up on a daily basis and fill their stomach with considerably less effort?

Now it begins to get messy. If you stop the feeding program, the poor will starve because all internal agricultural development has already stopped. People will undoubtedly start to die and other problems will follow. Do you begin to see the picture? There is a lot of blame which we as Africans have which I haven't highlighted here and I wholeheartedly acknowledge. But this example is just to show you that while we have our problems for which we are responsible, "externalities" way beyond our control serve to make a lot of these problems highly endemic.
Let me put it in perspective Jack, if your grand parents were North Korean migrants granted refugee status and not allowed to legally engage in any economic activity in the US, will they have been able to do what they so courageously did? The boundaries which they overcame such as prejudice, poverty and multiple jobs/commitments were challenges which they could respond to because they had control over them, but such VISA restrictions (using the example above) would've been beyond them i.e. externalities. They would not have been able to overcome them and that would have affected your current economic position. That is why African Americans (not the present generation) blamed the whites. And that is why south-africans like Nelson mandella fought the apartheid. Because they proved to be externalities which meant that irrespective of individual aspirations, their people could never prosper.

So yes, that is why I say foreigners have their own share of the blame which they should honourably accept. But then again (going back to the agricultural trade example), as a colleague of mine will say, "it's not personal its business", which leads me to my next point.

The US government gives billions of dollars in aid to Africa as part of a food program which has undoubtedly saved lots of lives especially in places like Ethiopia and recently Kenya and Somalia. But then again is Africa the greatest beneficiary? Is that the best way to save lives and promote economic empowerment?

Analysing the food aid program, I'm sure you know Jack that under the food aid, the president is congressionally bound to ensure that all the food is actually purchased within the US, unless otherwise is inevitable. A past UN report showed that for every $100 spent, $70 was spent within the US, with the other $30 being transportation, logistics, man power (as per salaries) and fuel. Again, please indulge yourself in my logic here. The money is made available to and accessed by American farmers with which they boost their production capacity and produce a lot of food. That extra production capacity is then bought off them, and transported to we, the lesser mortals and given to us for free.

Now, the positive benefits of this complex cycle (which I clearly understand) is that American farmers win as they become very much better off by selling even that extra bit of production capacity increasing the efficiency of their businesses. The government wins because they seem to show concern for other citizens of the world, and save lives in the third world, while also ensuring the economic development of the local agricultural industry. Unfortunately though, we Africans who don't see the wider picture of such economic policies are the ultimate loosers. We have been impoverished then fed and to add insult to injury, we then turn around and say how grateful we are for the intervention of our concerned friends. But is that the best way out?

Uganda and Rwanda of the last few years have witnessed sufficient political stability that economic development has surpassed even Nigeria (on an average GDP basis). Now during the last Kenyan crisis, food was flown in from donor countries, while neighbouring Uganda had a lot of surplus food which could have been purchased for far less. While the Ugandan people do not have the economic might to give out their produce for free to their Kenyan neighbours, can you imagine the economic stimulus buying their excess produce would've had on them? To put it plainly, it would have increased the incentives of farmers to produce food; would have increased the incentive for people to invest in agriculture and improve the efficiency of their farming practices to maximise yield and ultimately income. The income disparity between agricultural earnings and white collar job earnings would've been reduced, and more people would've embraced agriculture as a workable business. Hence a more productive aids package to both Kenya and Uganda (neighbours if I may add) is if the world had said, we would make so-and-so amount of money available to buy excess production capacity from Uganda. That would've stimulated the Ugandan economy and fed a lot more Kenyan people (considering the cheaper cost of both production and transport). But then again, no super power would have directly benefited from that deal. In fact, that would have been detrimental to local agriculture within their countries. Yet that would also have been true aid. You see the paradox?

The funny thing is I clearly understand the position of world powers on such protectionist policies, after all, its business and nothing personal. They have to look after their own, that is absolutely logical to the capitalist and I take no offence on that. What I take offence with is the fact that people like Jack, then turn around and deny it, absolutely blaming us for everything, conveniently neglecting the other side of the argument of which we as Africans have no control. Yes we have our flaws, yes there are ways to overcome this which as Africans we have failed to explore but the truth is Jack, we all have our share of the blame. I have accepted ours, why don't you accept yours?

Mugabe in my view was a leader who over stayed his welcome. He is a freedom fighter, a warrior who fought gallantly of which he deserves absolute credit, but lacks the intellect of a leader upon whom successful states are built. He is naïve to the realities of global economics and the strong level of economic inter-dependency between nations. While his land reclamation policy is again understandable, he should have backed that up with sound legal compensation to those affected, and economic rehabilitation to heal the wounds which such policies would have surely caused. Afterall, two wrongs don't make a right. He should show them that as Africans we are people of justice and fairness, and will not replicate the legacy of exploitation and oppression brought upon us through colonisation. Afterall, in what he has done, how different is he from those he so gallantly fought?

I blame his absolute lack of understanding of socio-economics for the plight of the Zimbabwean people. But the truth is, it was not the lack of production capacity brought about by his policies that destroyed Zimbabwe, it was the great power of the externalities, the reaction to his policies by the powers that be, which brought the countries to its knees. From a business and capitalist point of view that reaction is logical and again I clearly understand. But as I said and say again, share the credit, share the responsibilities and indeed Jack, share the blame, afterall, there is joy in sharing. Is there not?

Salam.

[Muhsin]

Well check your posts and discover that that is what you have been doing... making excuses. If NEPA isnt available, u wont even be able to post anything to begin with and if u were writing and NEPA went off, it'd go off with everything you've written and then u cant post anything. So it has nothing to do with erratic power supply. Write something ppl will read with interest.. that is all.

Let me explain sth a bit more here. Though that was not what I decided doing initially. But its, always I believe, good to be polite to anyone older than you even if that person...

You and other forum members I believe browse either free of charge, at your homes or at subsidized price at cafes. But I do mine da tsada. Even if its at sch, they only allow an hour for each student. Don haka, think of the scenario where one had finished writing a reply to a thread about to submit when the power went off; maybe it was gen, then the Nepa comes thus they wanna switch it to it or viceversa.

Kai I don't know how to explain it wallahi yanzu. In kin gane, falillahilhamdu in baki gane ba ma dai... I yanzu bought an hour at N150!!! Kai dole ne ma wai? InshaAllah I'm leaving this board untill next time tunda... ko ba hakaba?

[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

First class post by Sheriff 05 and very perceptive. There are bits with which I disagree but much of his analysis is thoughtful and coherent.

To narrow economic factors down to a Nigerian issue. The oil revenue has been a huge benefit and a massive curse to Nigeria. At the moment high oil prices make Nigeria one of the world's richest countries.
But over the last forty years the oil revenues have been carelessly used (or just stolen)and all the other things that should be getting done to fire up Nigeria's economy have been neglected or ignored.
As I pointed out on several posts in the past Nigeria's potential in farming is absolutely huge. Kano State, properly irrigated for instance could supply all of Europe's vegetable needs - particularly tomatos and onions but with proper husbandry a huge range of valuable vegetables can achieve two crops every year. Sadly when I go to my local supermarket I can find vegetables from all the east African countries and from Gambi, Ghana, Senegal and Cote D'Ivoire but nothing from Nigeria. Forty years ago Nigeria was the world biggest producer of groundnuts and Kano was the centre of that. Groundnuts are probably the world's most nutritious crop yet Nigeria produces hardly any groundnuts now. With petro chemical industry able to suppy powerful fertilisers Nigerian maize and guinea corn could feed half of Africa.

To pick up on another thread. "Foreigners" or "whites" can behave only in the ways they are allowed in any country. Too often exploitation in Nigeria and other places has been achieved by the willing collusion of nationals.

The point Sheriff 05 makes about the conditions that are enforced on Africa by the world's major economies is  very true and making African countries dependent on aid to suit Western economies is no way to help

[gogannaka]

The pressure on Mugabe is mounting again.
Here are some clips from some african papers on thier opinions on the Cholera crisis.
I got them from the BBC:

ZIMBABWE CHRONICLE

It is apparent that you cannot fight cholera with guns and therefore, if members of the EU are interested in helping the masses, as they always claim, they must give us humanitarian assistance to better the lives of the majority and stop scheming war against us.

MADAGASCAR TRIBUNE

France and the others, including Great Britain... are preparing and encouraging the whole international community to invade... to dislodge Robert Mugabe... Although there is a crisis in Zimbabwe, won't that worsen the country's economic and social situation?

RWANDA'S NEW TIMES

I urge all African leaders to call for nothing less than his stepping down or else... Zimbabweans gave him a chance through the power-sharing deal but he has self-importantly thrown it back into our faces.

BURKINA FASO'S LE PAYS

The severe cholera epidemic is seriously weakening the regime. But is the regime really about to give up? This is what the European capitals seem to secretly think. They want to give Mugabe the coup de grace by trying to set the world against him. We shall see if the forceful method - which has never worked for the West - will, this time, be the best solution.

DR CONGO'S LE POTENTIEL

Let's form a chain of solidarity around this regime by giving it our clear support materially and morally, by rejecting the plan for destabilisation and the contempt orchestrated by the Anglo-Saxon neo-conservatives. The image of Africa and its people is at stake.

COTE D'IVOIRE'S NOTRE VOIE

Why do [French President] Nicolas Sarkozy, [US Secretary of State] Condoleezza Rice, [UK Prime Minister] Gordon Brown and their friends want give the impression that Mugabe's departure is the precondition for sending aid to Zimbabweans who are threatened by the cholera epidemic? If the Westerners really claim that they love Zimbabweans more than Mugabe, they should renounce their fatal project of ousting Mugabe by force.

SOUTH AFRICA'S BUSINESS DAY

[Southern African Development Community] leaders need to move beyond the mindset of a quick backroom political fix that leaves Mugabe running critical institutions that have caused the very policies which have led to Zimbabwe's food and health crisis.

[lionger]

First off, this whole 'invasion' talk coming from all corners is pure madness. Haven't we learnt anything from the disaster in Iraq?

Class post by sherrif. Very, very well said -  though I do not think the African polity can so readily wash its hands off the economic/political basketcases it oversees as readily as you seem to suggest. As for the rest of you - esp. the naijan posters,  >:( I am amazed at how unwittingly some of us Africans cut our noses to spite our face in defending the indefensible with respect to Mugabe. How many of us would be so gallant if Mugabe were Nigeria's head of state?