Death penalty: Obsolete?

[Eskimo]

"The son of one slept with the wife of the other. There and then our beloved Prophet ordered that the son be caned and exiled for one year and summoned Unais Al-aslamiy to go and ask the wife, with clear instruction to stone her in the event of her confession. So she confessed and so she was stoned." ?
??? ??? ???

[Eskimo]

??? ???

"The son of one slept with the wife of the other. There and then our beloved Prophet ordered that the son be caned and exiled for one year and summoned Unais Al-aslamiy to go and ask the wife, with clear instruction to stone her in the event of her confession. So she confessed and so she was stoned."  
??? ??? ??? serious that is.... ???

[Anonymous]

This argument on death penalty is quite ineresting. we shd ask ourselves if society n laws r for the protection of the many or of the individual. the western world's protection of individual human rights -including those of menaces to the society- hav given rise to the dangerous world the white man lives in. conversely, ideologies like sharia & communism stress public good but risk abusing each member of the public individually. if u want to punish a criminal death is easy cos nobody knows what happens after death and killing someone just might b d end of his problems. it is the living that have problems. i suggest abolishment of the death penalty so that criminals can regret at leisure. what is the point of putting someone in prison n giving him books, a gym and even conjugal visits? i like ancient china where punishments ranged from mutilation to torture. that way if a pedophile's balls r crushed n his asshole skewered, he will be a living example.

[kilishi]

This argument on death penalty is quite ineresting. we shd ask ourselves if society n laws r for the protection of the many or of the individual. the western world's protection of individual human rights -including those of menaces to the society- hav given rise to the dangerous world the white man lives in. conversely, ideologies like sharia & communism stress public good but risk abusing each member of the public individually. if u want to punish a criminal death is easy cos nobody knows what happens after death and killing someone just might b d end of his problems. it is the living that have problems. i suggest abolishment of the death penalty so that criminals can regret at leisure. what is the point of putting someone in prison n giving him books, a gym and even conjugal visits? i like ancient china where punishments ranged from mutilation to torture. that way if a pedophile's balls r crushed n his asshole skewered, he will be a living example.

As a muslims i think to even think of abolishing death penalty is like arguing with what Allah has ordained us to doo,'cos it was stated that "an nafsi bin nafs"and to now said that we are no more interested on those punishment is uncalled for,and even from the socila aspect of it we are inviting trouble,i  agree with bashir's views.

[Anonymous]

Seems that lots of people can maker a lot of noise on this issue but nobody can answer any of the points I raised. So let me raise them again. (First let me say I am opposed to the death penalty generally on a number of grounds but mainly that many innocent people have been executed in mistake and it tends to be the poor that get the executions while the rich avoid them. I do concede,however, that there can be powerful arguements in favour of the death penalty in cases of treason, mutiny and murder. The US state (Texas) that executes most people also has the highest murder rate, so there is no evidence that the death penalty stops potential murderers.)
I can see no moral arguement for execution for adultery.
Let me ask my questions again.
Can a woman commit adultery alone?
Do men in Nigeria commit no adultery?
Which man is being threatened with stoning to death for adultery?
Where in the Holy Quoran does it insist that women be killed for adultery?
We see plenty poor people in the Sharia court. How many "big men" do you see in the Sharia - or is stealing billions of Naira from the nation less sinful than a poor man stealing a chicken or a few Naira?
And please, no ranting on about the state of society in the US or Saudi Arabia. They have no relevance to this particular issue and are just being brought up because some people wouldn't like to answer my questions.
As a matter of interest I live in Kilmun, Dunoon in Scotland. We have very few crimes, no murders and our women are perfectly safe in our streets.Yet we do not execute and we do not mutilate thieves (though we used to drown women we suspected of being witches hundreds of years ago when we were still savages). The key to the eradication of most crime is to provide a society in which all have equal opportunity and everybody will have a home, enough to eat and bring up children by having work which pays adequate wages.
The best way to stop adultery is to demand self-control from men!
Perhaps that's asking too much.

[al_hamza]

kai!

oya scotsman, ya isa kaji ko!!!

(its enough, do u understand that)

leave us alone with our religion!!

do u understand that? why dont u do yur crusade in india? where in the bushes women are burned alive with thier dead husbands (since they believe the widow has no right to survive anymore)

which muslim country has spoken against the appointment of your openly gay bishop?  

its better for us muslims to consider doing adultry (axtaghfurullah) than to be "gay"

its a shame, now you'll start shouting that you dont belong to that church and bla bla bla,

abeg commot fo road, go deal with your own problems and allow us to continue in our so-called "stone-age" rules,

got the point? or is the scotch wiskey still working?

[Waziri]

Interesting discussion of course,

May be we should start with the story of McVeigh, Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma bomber. Who gave out the following poem to be his last statement, he did not write the poem, but he believed the poem expressed the best of his feelings at the moment of the execution. Let us read the poem together:


Out of the night that covers me
Black as the pit from pole to pole
I thank whatever gods maybe
For my unconquerable soul

In the fell clutches of circumstances
I have not winced nor cried aloud
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody but unbowed

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the horror of the shade
And the menace of the years
Finds and shall find me unafraid

It matters not how straight the gate
How charged with punishments the scroll
I am the captain of my soul
I am the master of my fate

For those among us who do not appreciate poetry McVeigh is saying, going by the above poem, that he has NO REGRET whatsoever for killing over 100 souls. He is saying also that it is his fate, which he chose for himself. Now for God sake tell me my dear reader. Can you afford to share neighbourhood with him if he were freed?

If you are to share neighbourhood with him you would live in horror, your wife, your children, your very self. Every day, in constant terror, for he is not but a terrorist as such before he strikes again I suggest he should be killed.

How do you like the idea? This is the sole reason why we are looking for Osama bin Laden today to kill, and this is why we have killed the two sons of Saddam, because if allowed they will strike again. A murderer is a terrorist who not only kills but also terrorises and therefore must go. Simple.

I really find reason to intervene here only because I see myself being not only quoted out of context by Jack Fulcher but also framing a statement only to feign on my innocent self. I went through my article but did not see where I said:

as he claimed.

I am afraid, but I must say Jack Fulcher is here only to make mischief not to understand, he uses sentiment and propaganda as if his intentions are to make noise without adequate information. In his first reply to Amin he said:  

"Please stop this nonsense and join the rest of the world in the 21st century!  Thank you."

One here would be tempted to ask as to who the rest of the world are, which are the majority who abolished death penalty?

Are they Europe or Asia and Africa? Which ones are the majority and which ones are the minority?

Every thing of Jack here is based on sentiment not reason, opinion not fact as such I don't think he is somebody ready to engage in an intellectual discourse.

But for the sake of the majority here who really and sincerely are out to understand let me make some few clarifications.

First, in Islamic Shari'a, the punishment for adultery is stoning and for fornication it is caning. In the Hadith quoted out of context by Jack above the young man was caned because he committed fornication and the woman was stoned only because she committed adultery.

Second, for the attention of Eskimo, it is true that Islamic jurisprudence draws not only from Qur'an but the practice of the prophet and the consensus of Ulama'a but what is most important is law must have epistemological link to the Qur'an and Sunnah. And in matters of interpretations of Qur'anic verses and law, it is understood that whatever is said to be sanctioned by God to the Israelites is also sanctioned to us unless if Qur'an clearly provided an alternative. Islam is understood to be nothing more than the continuation of Christianity and Judaism if only they had remained pure and unaltered. And I also feel Eskimo should provide proofs that the Hadiths that confirmed death penalty to adulterers are of doubtful authority. We can pursue that in the Mustalahul hadith(science of Hadith) and see.

Concerning the apostates, it should be understood in Islam that treason can only be to the Islamic Nation not a country or tribe but to the brotherhood only. And for one after signing the contracts and accepting the conditions to compromise that loyalty is seen as offence enough to be killed. The verse that proclaims "no compulsion in religion" remains relevant only to those who have not yet joined the brotherhood.

Third, I support death by stoning. You ask me why? Okay because the Prophet of Islam suggested so. And there is no man on earth today who can claim being more compassionate, going by the records of history, more fair, more just than him. Give me an example of compassion or respect for human person today and I will give you its parallel in the time of the holy Prophet. This also add to the fact that punishments in Islam are not solely because they deter but also demonstrate to feelings of everybody the gravity of the offences committed and cleanse the environment from known nuisances, psychopaths like McVeigh.

Finally, it should be clear that the entire debate on law lies on the philosophy of the societies in question. Their definition of right and wrong, their concepts of good and evil and the ideal image of the kind of societies they want to produce. Those from the West or their supporters here must know first the entire framework of the kind of society the West wants to produce in the light of their philosophy before they can tell us they are rightier than us. If they cannot then they should know that they would not convince anybody around here. They will only end up making jest of themselves.

For me I know that in Islamic philosophy man is here on earth to perform DUTIES and OBLIGATIONS not to seek for FREEDOM and LIBERTY. In Islam man is already known to be free, as such no freedom here to seek but obligations to fulfil as mentioned by Jesus: "Do unto others what you would have them do unto you" Matthew 9:12. These are the bases of our laws.

We will discuss this further when some Westerner brings up the objectivesof Law in the West.

Jack also made an allegation in his emotional way in his last reply, which implied that our laws are what make us stay backward in this world. I really don’t think so. We are backward today only because the West does not give room for a purposeful and directional leadership in our countries. It does away with any leader who comes with the intention of bringing 'golden eggs"to his ppl. Our history is full of examples of this nature. Even dictators like Saddam enjoyed the support of USA in their dictatorship before they became invalid and denied USA what she wanted.

Yes, Jack we come to West and read unlike the West who come to us to sell weapons. We are also glad that the records of history have something like what the Nobel Prize winner in literature told the West in his Nobel Lecture 1988.



"As for Islamic civilization I will not talk about its call for the establishment of a union between all Mankind under the guardianship of the Creator, based on freedom, equality and forgiveness. Nor will I talk about the greatness of its prophet. For among your thinkers there are those who regard him the greatest man in history. I will not talk of its conquests, which have planted thousands of minarets calling for worship, devoutness and good throughout great expanses of land from the environs of India and China to the boundaries of France. Nor will I talk of the fraternity between religions and races that has been achieved in its embrace in a spirit of tolerance unknown to Mankind neither before nor since."

He went ahead further to state:

"I will, instead, introduce that civilization in a moving dramatic situation summarizing one of its most conspicuous traits: In one victorious battle against Byzantium it has given back its prisoners of war in return for a number of books of the ancient Greek heritage in philosophy, medicine and mathematics. This is a testimony of value for the human spirit in its demand for knowledge, even though the demander was a believer in God and the demanded a fruit of a pagan civilization."

You see my dear reader, this is our ideology our dream for the world right from the 6th century BC but the West after over 1000 yrs conspired its way up to the leadership of the world and destroyed this foundation. Imagine where we would be to day in the appreciation of human mind had the West did not do its intellectual treason by coming up with false scientific theories like theory of evolution to justify the massacre of countless human souls?  Had the idea of Nationalism did not come up? Had the idea of dividing human beings into nations and tribes in terms of countries did not come?  

The West should live us alone, let it not fight our ideologies and ways of life, let it allow us control our politics; this millennium is the millennium of Islamic virtues and moral values. Let it remember that we have survived the cruelties of communism. If it cannot remember, at least, let it know that we are still around.

[Anonymous]

my favorite apostle among the twelve disciples is doubting thomas. why? bcos he was d most sensible. if jesus cd appear to peter n co. then he shd appear to him as well. he refused to believe in hearsay. those of us that base our arguments on ancient scrolls shd realise that they are all hearsay. someone says god spoke to him n cos he was quite convincing ppl believed in him. faith is a funny thing cos anybody can claim it. according to all the scriptures, god has a habit of getting angry n turning on his current favorites. the profusion of systems (religion is just one more system among many) in the world and their competing claims shd make us examine them. why else do we have brains if we cant question everything?  i think that if we r to believe everything god is supposed to have said about himself, then he chose a very inefficient way of saving us n showing his love for us.

[Eskimo]

To my brother Waziri, I am not doubting the authenticity of the Hadith?in fact it is because I believe in that is why I quoted it.
My arguent is that I see no where in that hadith or a similar hadith where the MARITAL STATUS was asked despite its importance in differentiating whether the accused will live or die.
You reminded me of a point: let me quote you ?And in matters of interpretations of Qur'anic verses and law, it is understood that whatever is said to be sanctioned by God to the Israelites is also sanctioned to us unless if Qur'an clearly provided an ALTERNATIVE? in this case are we not given an alternative?

The hadith of stonning: going by the traditions of the Prophet is a prove to your reminder. In the early suras of Medinah when the muslim ummah was in early stage, a verse was revealed saying " Those who come up with it (adultery, carnal sin) you should punish them." that is all. no punishment was prescribed. As a continuation of christianity and judaism what do you expect to happen? look back in the former revelation of Allah in the Torah a punishment was prescribed so the prophet applied it. That made it a Hadith. I dont know when the Stonning Hadith took place but going by reason you have to accept it is early in Medinah.
Later towards the end of the Prophets life (This is for sure check the time for the revelation of Surat -Nur it was long after Hudaibiyyah: barely a year to the death of the Prophet) the case of Aisha and the hypocrites happened and then the surat al Nur was revealed clearly addressing the problem. Can you mentione any stonning that took place at that time? please revisit your Tarikh al Islam. Please was Aisha Married or not married then? Please read from verse 1-10.

Let me help you with some point:

1.  If someone accused another of adultery he should come up with 4 witnesses (not pregnancy :D) or else he will be punished.

2.  If the witnesses are given, the adulterer is to be flogged.

3.  In the case of married accused and the witnesses are not available, then if the marriage patner is not satisfied (why should one be satisfied with AIDS in town) then taking oath come in.

Glory be to Allah the Best Law Maker!

But I dont know may be we are still expected to fluck out our eyes when they push us to commit sin as said by Jesus since our religion is the continuation of his teaching with no abrogation and changes in Law for a bettter society.

Peace on those who follw guidance

[Eskimo]

To my brother Waziri, I am not doubting the authenticity of the Hadith?in fact it is because I believe in that is why I quoted it.
My arguent is that I see no where in that hadith or a similar hadith where the MARITAL STATUS was asked despite its importance in differentiating whether the accused will live or die.
You reminded me of a point: let me quote you ?And in matters of interpretations of Qur'anic verses and law, it is understood that whatever is said to be sanctioned by God to the Israelites is also sanctioned to us unless if Qur'an clearly provided an ALTERNATIVE? in this case are we not given an alternative?

The hadith of stonning: going by the traditions of the Prophet is a prove to your reminder. In the early suras of Medinah when the muslim ummah was in early stage, a verse was revealed saying " Those who come up with it (adultery, carnal sin) you should punish them." that is all. no punishment was prescribed. As a continuation of christianity and judaism what do you expect to happen? look back in the former revelation of Allah in the Torah a punishment was prescribed so the prophet applied it. That made it a Hadith. I dont know when the Stonning Hadith took place but going by reason you have to accept it is early in Medinah.
Later towards the end of the Prophets life (This is for sure check the time for the revelation of Surat -Nur it was long after Hudaibiyyah: barely a year to the death of the Prophet) the case of Aisha and the hypocrites happened and then the surat al Nur was revealed clearly addressing the problem. Can you mentione any stonning that took place at that time? please revisit your Tarikh al Islam. Please was Aisha Married or not married then? Please read from verse 1-10.

Let me help you with some point:

1.  If someone accused another of adultery he should come up with 4 witnesses (not pregnancy :D) or else he will be punished.

2.  If the witnesses are given, the adulterer is to be flogged.

3.  In the case of married accused and the witnesses are not available, then if the marriage patner is not satisfied (why should one be satisfied with AIDS in town) then taking oath comes in.

Glory be to Allah the Best Law Maker!

But I dont know may be we are still expected to fluck out our eyes when they push us to commit sin as said by Jesus since our religion is the continuation of his teaching with no abrogation and changes in Law for a bettter society.

Peace on those who follow guidance

[Eskimo]

...I just read this hadith from the sahih al Bukhari..

Volume 8, Book 81, Number 778:
Narrated 'Aisha:

Usama approached the Prophet on behalf of a woman (who had committed theft). The Prophet said, "The people before you were destroyed because they used to inflict the legal punishments on the POOR and forgive the RICH. By Him in Whose Hand my soul is! If Fatima (the daughter of the Prophet ) did that (i.e. stole), I would cut off her hand."

our sharia governors where are they taking us to?

[Anonymous]

Bravo Eskimo! Bravo Bashir! At least some people are trying to discuss this issue seriously and not just shouting abuse.
(As a matter of interest I am a poor Christian (Catholic) but I have many Moslem relatives.)

Mr Jack Fulcher, where have you gone? You started this.

[Jack_Fulcher]

I'm here, Mr. Hill.  Just got back from a bridge tournament and am very tired.  I just scanned the new posts and am very interested in what everyone is saying.  I hope we can keep the discussion civil and not call each other names and impute bad motives to others writings.  In any case, it's very late and my wife and I am tired, so will respond tomorrow.  Jack

[al_hamza]

so mr jack and mr dave,

what we have here, we have to make clear is,

are you against the shariah in our northern states? or are you against sharia anywhere it is?

plus do u believe, the laws you made for us during your colonial periods are the laws that can be the only and the best solutions?

does your law help us catch the rich thieves according to you? and the shariah fails to do that?

Eskimo, i am pleased to hear such genuiness about the posts you have made, but our christian friends/"intruders", see it in a different light, so Eskimo lets make something clear, are you also against or are you for shariah? and if you are for shariah and believe that stonning and be-heading should stop, then i guess you should go back to greenland and do some fishing with your red-indian brothers and eat raw flesh,

there is nothing like "modern islam" because we all know that the Prophet has said that the signs of the end of days is when muslims will forget about thier religion,

i aint no saint but i aint no mad man too, you can continue with your "ideas" because what is to happen must happen, its inevitable, you see its a must that it happens. the down fall of Islam, and it will come from the inside, and it would be helped by outsiders,

it has begun over a hundred years back, the british helped bring down the Othmania kingdom in Arabia and since then we have had only set-backs,

and i will say this again, dave "thanks for bieng in nigeria and for serving us, we are really gratefull for your services, but it doesnt mean you should interfer in our culture and our RELIGION"!

as for jack,

hows the gay bishop doing? has he molested any kid again? are you gonna feel free attending the services in that church with your family every sunday?

i think you have enough problems, you shouldnt worry about us,

"people that live in glass churches should not throw scotch wiskey bottles at others"

is that understood?

[lionger]

time to break silence

To answer the question: as a Christian, I would naturally oppose the death penalty, because that is the way of Christ. But Nigeria is a SECULAR state (or at least it used to be). Thus I must say that this decision should be made by the National Assembly, or the states should decide for themselves. OBJ has much better and more serious matters to worry about that the death penalty. This is just pandering to the EU, and a diversion for the easily polarised Nigerians from the real issues of stagnant economy and fuel scarcity.

Na wa for us o, when I saw this topic, I thought it would boil down to a social discussion on the effectiveness of the death penalty on curbing crime. But lo and behold, here we are discussing Sharia, deja vu. Lol.

I've challenged Northern Nigeria's sharia on this forum for so long, not on the basis of religious difference or barbarism, but on simple logistics. It's good to see that finally ppl here are beginning to ASK QUESTIONS about the system, instead of swallowing wholesale the ideas of their politicians. What's eating most of us pro-death penalty ppl here is that the abolitionist arguments are being made by foreigners on this forum. So instead of answering their questions, some of you have conveniently sidetracked yourselves by heaping slander on the 'christian crusaders' of Scotland and the U.S. of A.

So Al Hamza, I beseech you, by the mercies of God, to stop insulting others on this forum. You are a senior member for goodness' sake. Why can't you make a mature, sensible contribution to topics like this? Borrow a leaf from the likes of Amin and Waziri. Answer the gentleman's questions, instead of making cynical comments on his supposed ethnic and religious background. Who told you Mr. Fulcher and Mr. Hill are Christians? In fact, where did you ever read that the West is Christian? If you must slap a tag on the West, then it is called materialism, not Christianity. And drop the gay bishop issue, it has no relevance. You brought it up a while back during my discussion with BARDE on the Islamic forum, and I ignored it then. I won't say a word about it until u start to show some respect around here, because that is how you spoil discussions. Stop slandering Christianity with every swipe on the West, and stop belittling other muslims u think have lost their way. Eskimo is not now a fool just because, he though muslim, does not like the idea of stoning for adultery. This is KanoOnline, not your backyard. We should be happy that foreigners even deemed it fit to join. So please, start showing some respect around here. Otherwise, I have no further recourse but to ask the admin to step in and stop, even delete abusive tirades like yours on this forum. Abeg make u hear word now!

Finally, we never hear from the girls yet. FDQ, Ummita, Fulanicious and the rest, we dey wait for una!

lionger