I really... am tired

[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

As I pointed out the suicide bombers and the amateur rocket attcks on Israel are a result of nearly fifty years of violence against the Palestinians by heavily armed Israel. Perhaps you didn't read my post properly.

I note you make no comment on the crux of the problem - the Israelis are on the Palestinians land which was given to Israel by US/UK who had no right whatsover to give the Palestinians land to the Israelis.

Israel since has illegally invaded and grabbed more Arab lands almost every year. and crushed the Palestinian nation into tiny Gaza where they continue to attack and kill them
You expect the Arabs just to accept this?
Suicide bombs against innocent civilians are completely wrong. But it takes a huge grievance and huge courage for young men and women to do this.
Can you imagine how angry you would have to be to the injustice to your people to make you do this?
To  many people Hezbollah and Hamas are not terrorists. They are freedom fighters. Africa knows much about freedom fighters.

Dave McEwan Hill

[lionger]

:?  :x  :evil:

Sorry Dave and Ete, excuse my interruption into your heated debate while I respond to the starter of this thread.

Waziri,
I'm quite saddened that you took such strong offense to my comments that you threatened to abandon a discussion that had barely even started. But for the life of me I cannot understand why you should feel that way. Having gone through the posts of the previous threads, I have to say that your annoyance can only stem from your own confusion and inability to separate issues properly, which resulted in your misunderstanding of my posts and Ete's on the thread he started.

Right from the beginning of this discussion you have relentlessly sought to accuse the Jewish religion of harboring racist hatred and violence, and thus being the source of Israel's malevolence. Sorry, but I must once again reject these claims as utterly groundless, and I'm yet to see a reason why I should waver from my position. What I mean is this: Israel's actions are not based on its adherence to its scriptures, but are an attempt to defend itself as it sees fit, rightly or wrongly (and I think its a mixture of both). Again, Israel has not carried out a bombing campaign in Southern Lebanon because the book of Deuteronomy say to do so, but in response to the actions of the Hezbollah. Come on, just last month, Jerusalem hosted the gay rights parade with the blessing of Israel's courts! You do understand how incompatible this is with the book of Leviticus, right? If Israel is indeed the theocratic state you take it to be, such a thing would not happen.

You took offense to my 'incorrect' presentation of Genesis (which was on an entirely separate thread): you complained that after I said that Israel's actions were not based on religion, I later used Genesis to prove Israel's right to the land (thereby indirectly saying that it does have everything to do with religion). Here you are muddling issues and confusing yourself. First of all I did not bring up Genesis out of the blue; you did, and I simply responded. Secondly, the crux of my Genesis post was not to legitimize Israel's existence or present actions, but to counter your interpretation of Genesis. This post was strictly about scripture interpretation: you said that the promised land concept in Genesis is 'shady'; I dissented. In the other posts you said 'Israel is doing this because their scriptures say so'; I said, 'no, Israel is simply defending itself'. One argument is about scripture interpretation, i.e. religion; the other is about motives. Get the difference?

Finally, as long as we're airing grievances, I want to bring attention certain portions of your post that I strongly object to:

I have observed a recent trend most of the discussions at k-online are assuming, which proves very insulting to reason and pricking to individual consciense.

I must reiterate here that the primary reason why we gather here to discuss issues of regional and international importance is to educate and imform one another using reasoned logic and palpable facts whenever we make assertions that require substantial evidence to make good sense.

But then when some among us deliberately prove themselves allergic to reason always, or atleast colour every issue with the cloak of the person who is making an assertion, then definately these people are sowing the seed of destructing any good sense any debate may make on the forum.

I must say I am tired of this gross insult on our collective intelligence...

Waziri, you made a post on Ete's thread; both he and I responded. Instead of continuing the discussion, you started this thread solely to complain about how 'tired' you are of our illogical, insulting and unreasonable tactics. Tired already? Your reference to our 'insulting post' as a 'recent trend on k-online' is even more amazing! All this is utterly ridiculous and very disrespectful. Please do not start a fire where there is none, and once again please desist from all this unnecessary intellectual chest-beating. We all try to make logical arguments. I most certainly do not accept your take on Genesis, Deuteronomy and the present crisis as 'reasoned logic', but I'm not going to start a thread on how tired I am of your unreasonable guts without at least attempting some discussion. That is immature and childish nonsense. Speaking of discussion, I'm waiting patiently for you to prove just how 'incorrect' my reading of Genesis is (at least I provided a reading, you had none!) After this post I will make my response to you Deuteronomy passage - but on the Ahmadenijad thread, not here. Hope to see you there, and I trust that we can continue our detate in a respectful manner as always.

God bless,
lionger

[_Waziri_]

Salam,

Readers, I am sorry for resurrecting all the relevant threads again to post my earlier response to the first part of the claims lionger and co are puting in relation to the promised land, who also accused me of misreading and misquoting "their" holy scripts in order to serve my purpose of expressing hate against them. Pls I do this for no reason than the following:

1.    To establish within us and them that they have seen our thread and did not respond to what I said because they agreed with our points as such will not bother us again when we make points similar to these in future. It is a settled issue.

2.    That in truth it is not only them that hold the present Bible very dear for it is as dear to us as they believe it is dear to them. That they should never accuse us again of mutiliating the Bible. Yes, we maybe wrong in some of our assertions but they have no right to claim better right of ownership of the scripts than us. Here is it:

Having driven my points in the other thread started by my sister Husna, I will discuss, here, the falsity of the oft repeated claim, that there was an accord between God and the Jews which gave them Palestine permanently and for life, as promised. I will draw from the Biblical sources  through to Qur?an and side by side the insurmountable evidence of history which will portray in grim light that the activities of the Jews in the Middle East is a breach of human dignity, an exercise in avarice and an eccentricity of the highest magnitude in the sight of God. In doing that we will certainly find the following verse giving the true test of what prophesy is, most instrumental. It reads:


And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing the Lord hath not spoken, but the the Prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Holy Bible (Deuteronomy 18:21-22)

Building in the submission of lionger in defense of the fraudulent accord we read in the same Bible how Abraham, the so-called, receiver of the promise, died in a land he bought for himself.

And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave....
The field which Abraham purchased of the sons of Heth: there was Abraham buried, and Sarah his wife.
Holy Bible (Genesis 25:9-10)

How possible is it then that he was given a land when he had buy one for his own grave? This is especially true when we see how another verse from the scripture confirmed it this way:

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off..

Holy Bible (Hebrews 11:13)

Nothing is most explicit than the account given by Luke in the Acts of the apostles as follows:

And God said unto him (Abraham), Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall show thee. Then came he out of the land of the Chaldeans, and dwelt in Haran; and from there, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land (Palestine) in which ye now dwell. And he (God) gave him (Abraham) no inheritance in it, NO, NOT SO MUCH AS TO SET HIS FOOT UPON; yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him.....
Holy Bible (Acts 7:3-5)

No wonder Jesus Christ (AS), the Messiah, liberator of the Jews has never mentioned anything, with emphasis, like the promised land given to the Jews anywhere. But rather he found comfort in telling them the stark truth that the spiritual leadership of Mankind has been taken away from them permanently with his coming, only to be given to another? in his own word:

Therefore I say unto you (Jews), The Kingdom of God shall be taken away from you (Jews), and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

(HOLY BIBLE) Matthew 21: 45

Earlier on Moses(AS) foretold them in this manner as seen in the following verses from our dear Deuteronomy:

Ye have been rebellious against the Lord from the day I knew you.

(HOLY BIBLE) Deutronomy 9: 24

For I knew thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the lord; and how much more after my death?

(HOLY BIBLE) Deutronomy 51:27

They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they (the Jews) have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are Not A People; I will provoke them to anger with a Foolish Nation.

(HOLY BIBLE) Deutronomy 32:21

THE QUR?AN

Having found no any substantial answer as to where the issue for the Promised Land came from in the Bible, only some good references that suggested the whole idea to mean a lie against God, we will turn to the Qur?an, perchance our Jewish brethren can have some legitimate claim in the LAST TESTAMENT of God. Here we find the verses as referred to here, aptly, by my sister Husna. Let?s re-read them together:


20 And (remember) when Moses said unto his people: O my people! Remember Allah's favour unto you, how He placed among you prophets, and He made you kings, and gave you that (which) He gave not to any (other) of (His) creatures.

21 O my people! Go into the holy land which Allah hath ordained for you. Turn not in flight, for surely ye turn back as losers:

22 They said: O Moses! Lo! a giant people (dwell) therein and lo! we go not in till they go forth from thence. When they go forth from thence, then we will enter (not till then).

23 Then out spake two of those who feared (their Lord, men) unto whom Allah had been gracious: Enter in upon them by the gate, for if ye enter by it, lo! ye will be victorious. So put your trust (in Allah) if ye are indeed believers.

24 They said: O Moses! We will never enter (the land) while they are in it. So go thou and thy Lord and fight! We will sit here.

25 He said: My Lord! I have control of none but myself and my brother, so distinguish between us and the wrong-doing folk.

26 (Their Lord) said: For this the land will surely be forbidden them for forty years that they will wander in the earth, bewildered. So grieve not over the wrongdoing folk. (Suratul Ma'ida verses 20 to 26).

Actually, there is no any point in the Qur?an where a contradictory claim, as is above is made, in relation to the story of the Jews and how they lost in the sight of God. As such we can easily conclude that the issue of the Promised Land found much substance only in the Qur?an. But then the truth of the matter as is consistent with every standard Qur?anic exegete, the Jews where given that land in their position then as the chosen people to lead Mankind in all their spiritual journeys in the universe. But as the time went, they proved arrogant and stiff-necked as seen in the accounts given above from the pages of Deuteronomy, by Moses, and Matthews by Jesus. So Allah said in the Qur?an:

O! CHILDREN OF ISRAEL! CALL TO MIND THE SPECIAL FAVOUR WHICH I BESTOWED UPON YOU, AND FULFIL YOUR COVENANT WITH ME AS I FULLFILL MY COVENANT WITH YOU AND FEAR NONE BUT ME.

Holy Qur?an (2:40)

That is to say they have not lived upto the expectations of God in their covenant with Him as such cannot continue to claim their status in His sight as the chosen people.

HISTORICAL REALITIES

From the point of view of history, Jews have never been known to have evolved as Jews, anytime prior to the time they stayed in the ancient Egypt, beginning at the time Joseph (AS) brought all the members of the family there to stay after he ascended a level, in the leadership of the ancient Egypt. Later the whole family was enslaved under the tyrannical administrations of the native Egyptians. Moses came to rescue them with the instructions that they should go and settle newly, in a Promised Land, from which they will give the desired spiritual leadership to mankind. They proved stiff-necked and rebellious until God changed them with the Arabs as the carriers of his message and the spiritual leaders of mankind in Islam under the leadership of Muhammad. But one truth remains like a hanging myth over the reality of human existence. The Jews under Talmudic prompting have never adjusted to the truth that they are no longer the favorites in the sight of God, as such; they attempted to kill Jesus and spent so many resources in bringing down the Prophet of Islam and his message. Palestine as a land that is chosen by God to be the heart of the earth with a great amount of spiritual goodwill was claimed and continued to be claimed by them.

It is a reality of history that since time immemorial, the ideology or nation that controlled the region has always been the nation that led the world in all other spheres of life. Think of Ottaman Empire, France and Britain. They were all world powers only when they were in control of the region, the moment they lost it, the moment their leadership slipped to the new occupiers of the place and Jews since they wanted to continue to lead mankind under a very false claim they kept the grudge touting the idea that its theirs hook or crook. But the truth of the matter lies in the words of Leopold Weiss another Jew, who converted to Islam around 1922 and having seen the evil machinations of the Talmudist in their plans to assume control of the region concluded about the ownership of the place, thus:

?It belongs to all those who mentally approach it with a humility born of faith in the one God, and particularly to those who, in the words of the Qur?an: ?Believe in all His messengers making no distinction between any of them.?

I remain most grateful, until I come with my analysis of Jewish worldview in the light of those laws of hate enumerated in the Deuteronomy. Thanks once again.

[lionger]

Click here for my response to your arguments

Readers, I am sorry for resurrecting all the relevant threads again to post my earlier response to the first part of the claims lionger and co are puting in relation to the promised land, who also accused me of misreading and misquoting "their" holy scripts in order to serve my purpose of expressing hate against them. Pls I do this for no reason than the following:

1. To establish within us and them that they have seen our thread and did not respond to what I said because they agreed with our points as such will not bother us again when we make points similar to these in future. It is a settled issue.

2. That in truth it is not only them that hold the present Bible very dear for it is as dear to us as they believe it is dear to them. That they should never accuse us again of mutiliating the Bible. Yes, we maybe wrong in some of our assertions but they have no right to claim better right of ownership of the scripts than us.

Waziri, you've made some rather objectionable and wild statements in this post, but my response is simple: please try to quote Bible verses in their proper context. It really is not that difficult. Haven't you noticed that I always say the same thing in response to your quotations? Out of context, out of context, out of context, out of context!  This is not good scholarship. Here's a suggestion: before you present another Bible verse that meets your fancy on this forum, read the entire chapter surrounding that verse, maybe two chapters. Be sure that you've grasped the context and background of that verse and then go ahead. If you don't, then rest assured that I will once again do your homework for you. If indeed the Bible is dear to you as you claim (which frankly is double-talk since you called it a fraudulent accord previously) then it is not too hard a thing to pay attention to context. From the tragic phantom Deuteronomy passage to this post, contextual respect has been constantly bypassed.  I'm not sure that I'd have enough time for more debate in this in the near future, but I strongly encourage you to read that whole chapter of Hebrews 11 again carefully. As I said before, if you quote the Quran in the same manner that's you've quoted the Bible often then one has to wonder if even that analysis can be trusted :( .

[_Waziri_]

lionger,

You can provide the context if u so desire. But one thing is you cannot deny me the thorough knowledge of what I am doing. You know quite all right that I couldn't have gotten those verses without having laboured thru the scriptures! When you cannot do that you give me the ground in this. You are already looking so much on the defensive and am afraid it is not a very helthy thing for u.

Thanks once again.