Death penalty: Obsolete?

[Muhammad]

Assalamu Alaikum
This is an article written by Prof A H Yadudu arguing against abolishing the death penalty. After reading please offer suggestions, comments or critiques for ar against the Death penalty.
Enjoy.
**********************************************Why We Oppose The Abolition Of Death Penalty
by A. H. Yadudu


That President Obasanjo has pledged to a delegation of the European Union his determination to seek for the abolition of capital punishment in Nigeria did not come to many of us as a big surprise. Both in his first term, but more so in the second and final term, he has behaved more determined and acted more eagerly to appease foreign rather than serve national interest or work for the common good of ordinary Nigerians.

While justifying his many globetrotting trips, he has hidden behind the fa?ade of seeking to reconcile our nation with itself bringing it back into the fold of the comity of nations and attracting investment as the reasons why he had been going to places. Having cut down on his trips abroad, he has now found another way to continue with his appeasement crusade. He has promised to work towards abolishing the death penalty, a theme so dear to Europe's heart that it was one of the very many conditionalities which Turkey had to meet in order to qualify for EU membership. One wonders whether we are also on the queue to joining the EU and are earnest in ticking off our compliance with the conditionalities!

Perhaps deliberately, he has thereby embarked on the path to over-heating the polity at home even as he seeks to appease his masters abroad. He knows all too well that the issue will divide Nigerians along religious lines and possibly, evoke North/South dichotomies with all the emotions which accompany debate over such issues. Since he has also promised to accomplish the undertaking through the democratic process, perhaps we are entitled to join issues even in the absence of a draft bill and wish to state, in no uncertain terms, our opposition to the abolition of the capital punishment for the following, among other reasons.

Ours is a federal polity which is anchored on the due recognition of and our constitution is designed to accommodate unity in diversity. Our diversity is not merely in the languages we speak, tribal affinity or the mode of our dressing or whether we find delight in eating "Tuwo", "Amala" or "Ogbono" soup. We are a multi-religious nation in which there is ample recognition and respect for religious freedom. We are constrained to note that any attempt to abolish capital punishment will be viewed as breach of our fundamental freedom of worship and the profession of a religion of our choice and will be treated as a direct affront to our unfettered practice of Islam and the undiluted observance of its fundamental law, the Shariah. At the risk of sounding uncharitable, it has all the hallmark of being an unwitting, albeit calculated attempt, to incite unnecessary religious conflict.

In similar vein, we view it as a backdoor attempt to roll back the implementation of Shariah which Muslims have embarked upon, by the National Assembly which lacks the legislative competence to do so. We are, however, not unmindful of the fact that both Mr. President and his former Attorney General of the Federation Hon Kanu Agabi, currently serving as the Conscience of the Government, have publicly opposed our right to submit to the Shariah as guaranteed by the constitution. Without doubt, Muslims will view this recent attempt as a ploy to formally join the EU and the so-called international community in a modern day crusade against Islam and its institutions by a Christian President who should protect the religious freedom of all citizens.

Perhaps it will not be out of place to caution Nigerians that it will be a serious folly and an act of political miscalculation to seek to unify penal laws in the country or the sentences courts may impose following a conviction. Historically, we have never had a single penal system in Nigeria. From the period when we operated the Criminal Code for the South and the Penal Code for the North to the present when we literally operate as many penal systems as there are States in the federation, there is nothing absurd about that. It accords with our history. Diversity in religious persuasion multiplicity and diversity of penal systems should be viewed, not as retrogressive, but as a hallmark of a true federation which conforms to a universal practice in all federations the world over.

It is what obtains in the USA and Canada and several other federations the world over. We hope it will not surprise Mr. President to know that the Supreme Court of the USA has had to reverse itself to sanction capital punishment after it has earlier outlawed it. With the result that more States in the US federation, including Texas, President Bush's State, do sanction death penalty than have outlawed it. That is a mark of a true federation from which President Obasanjo may wish to borrow a leaf. Indeed Texas has the dubious distinction of being the State in the USA with the most tally of annual executions of prisoners found guilty and sentenced to death by lethal injection, a practice they consider as humane, although they have qualms about stoning an adulterer to death!

If Mr. President, the National Assembly, despite recent disclaimers by the Speaker to the contrary, and the Human Rights do-gooders, insist on expunging death penalty from our statute books, a matter we consider as the pursuit of the path of folly and unnecessary overheating of the polity at a time when even the mandate of Mr. President is still being contested in a court of law, we wish to remind them that the Constitution of the Federal Republic of Nigeria 1999 does unequivocally recognise capital punishment. It provides thus "every person has the right to life, and no one shall be deprived intentionally of his life, save in execution of a sentence of a court in respect of a criminal offence of which he has been found guilty in Nigeria." We expect that they will take all necessary steps to amend the said constitutional provision and submit the matter to a referendum for the public to approve or disapprove of such a move. They would also need to amend the Legislative List in the Second Schedule to the Constitution so as to acquire competence and legitimacy.

It is amazing to observe that the motive for President Obasanjo's pledge to abolish the death penalty, as reported in the press, is not triggered by some moral consideration or empirical reasons or humane compassion or even the urge to serve some vital national interest. It seems to me that, at the bottom of it all, is political expediency: a move to appease both his ego and those of his foreign supporters.

As Adamu Adamu has rather aptly put it, it is not a mark of statesmanship for the President to hinge everything on his personal experience as the reason for making his pledge, as he was reported to have claimed. As widely reported, President Obasanjo offered a glimpse of the motive as to why he desires to make his move now when he claimed to have come close to the hangman's noose after his conviction in the 1995 coup attempt trial. What he did not disclose was what saved his neck: certainly, it was not the absence of capital punishment in our statute books!

What is more intriguing to us is that the President should not have been selective in relating his personal experience. For it is widely believed that the life of at least one General I.D. Bisalla, the then Defence Minister, who was executed along with other coupists following the assassination of Gen. Murtala Mohammed in 1976, would have been saved but for President Obasanjo's casting the deciding vote to confirm a death sentence when the Supreme Military Council, which he presided over then as Military Head of State, was divided on the issue.

We deprecate the utilitarian argument that the life that a murderer has wilfully terminated could not be brought back by, what the abolition proponents characterise as, the "wasteful" and "vengeful" execution of the murderer not extinguish or assuage the agony of the bereaved family. We have similarly not seen any empirical evidence to indicate that the abolition of capital punishment had led to reduction in or even stabilised the incidence of the commission of murder and other heinous crimes. On the contrary, studies have shown that nations which have gone the path President Obasanjo is urging us to follow, such as the Republic of South Africa and the USA, have all witnessed a dramatic increase in the occurrence and escalation or exacerbation of such crimes.

We do not want to take chances with our well-being, safety and the security of our lives. We have had enough political assassinations, unsolved murders, bungled trials, armed robberies resulting in brutal deaths etc to be persuaded to follow the dangerous path of the abolishing of capital punishment.

Professor Yadudu is with the Faculty of Law, Bayero University, Kano

[Guduma]

First of all the stand of the FG on the issue is very unfortunate, and uncalled for. It is becoming clear that the government of the day is not keen in allowing citizens to practice their religions unhindered. The issue of death penalty is based on justice and morality. Anyone against the penalty of death being passed on murderers, must be crazy and unsincere to themselves. Imagine a man or woman was caught after hacking your wife, father or son to death, what would you do? Certainly not to praise him/her.
The death penalty is not a Nigerian affair alone, it is a universally acknowledged fact whoever kills must be killed. This is in recognizing the fact that the human life is sacred, and must therefore be defended and not destroyed like insect's.
If we can go a little down memory lane, the cases of Thimoty Mcveigh and the Unabomber, both in the US shows how the legal framework on culpable homicide works there. In the UK the celebrated case of Mardi Gras alias pears, is a good example. Gras was caught after successfully exterminating the lives of so many innocent citizens through the planting of bombs in public buildings. For anyone therefore to talk of cancelling the death penalty in this country now, could be an affrontry of both moslem and christians adherants.

[Jack_Fulcher]

I saw this article written by a teacher in your local college.  I went to the college's web site and discovered that there is no way to contact the professor through e-mail.  Not only that, there is no way to contact anyone at the college!  What sort of college is this?  Does the faculty there think that they can only lecture, but they do not have to receive input from the outside world?

This brings me to the point of my note.  He argues that your president is trying to pander to other countries, especially Europe and the United States, when he pushes for the abolition of the death penalty in your country.  I think that, instead, he is embarrassed for his countrymen and women, some of whom have embraced the draconian Shariah laws.  To suggest that someone should be killed for adultry is absurd and makes you all look like fools.  You can believe whatever you wish, but until you purge your culture of such neanderthal attitudes, you will never be taken seriously.  You will be thought of as "those quaint natives who live out in the bush in Kano and stone women to death for adultry."  No one will believe that you are capable of governing yourselves.  There are many people who came here from Nigeria who live in my city (San Francisco), and they all are shocked that their friends back in their homeland might participate in such behavior.  

Please stop this nonsense and join the rest of the world in the 21st century!  Thank you.

Jack Fulcher
California

[Muhammad]

Mr Fulcher your points are well taken.

I dont intend to shield our tertiary institution from the desolation that has become of them but know this, these colleges like all government run institutions are dearly in need of cash to enhance their services (Think amtrak). And that might account for meagre amount of information posted on the web.
Note this same professor you are deriding was trained at Harvard Law school! The jewel of American colleges.
I myself reside in the states and know the kind of difficulty your state, california is in -think of the budget cuts, deficit, due to insufficienting funding.
Secondly, you raised the issue of draconian Sharia Law.
Mr Fulcher since when did Laws, duly passed by legislatures working under the guidance of a sovereign nation's statutes became draconian? This is not the Nuremburg laws, or the so called Patriot act, an ordinance that infringes the rights of american citizens.
You also talked of  the absurdity of killing an adulterer. I say this to you, the way we view adultery differs significantly than you do and as such we put to death those who contravene this law.
For example a  Nigerian may find it hard to believe that people like yourself will chastise Nigeria for the death penalty and at the same time be indifferent for the punishment of treason in America. Master Sgt. Brian Patrick Regan was convicted for spying and the jury needs to decide whether or not he be killed. This is in Virginia. Tell me fulcher, which seems more punitive, killing because i TALKED or killing because i SINNED. It is obvious aint it.
Lastly, tell your san fransiscan compatriots to judge which city has more savages:
a) Kano a city which HAS NEVER stoned a woman for adultery or
b) Texas a state that has killed many people, unjustly as George Ryan of Illinios found out,  for commiting a crime that is punished by a prison sentence in Nigeria.

Summary:
In America where you live, there certain pro-lifers who support killing Doctors who perform abortion. One day, this might become Law and possibly some one will be victimized. Would that make you "quaint colanizers of North America"
Also, I personally think the punishment for adultery ought to be killing but NOT by STONNING. The end does not justify the means.

PS: I have more to say but have to stop so to learn more     e mail me @ myadudu.student.umass.edu. I shall be glad to answer any of your questions.

CIAO

[gogannaka]

Amin the last time i heard of you u were studying engineering;now its more like you r into law.........


anyway your comment on John's post was excellent ......welldone.......

[Jack_Fulcher]

Amin, thank you for your response.  There are several points I'd like to make.  First, if the school can afford a web site, it can afford at least one e-mail address.  Further, if the school needs funding, you all should join the rest of the world and make some money.  It appears that you are doing your best to isolate yourselves, and then complain about how your problems are everyone else's fault.  

I fail to understand your argument regarding draconian laws. You say that the Sharia laws are "duly passed by legislatures working under the guidance of a sovereign nation's statutes."  So what?  The laws of Nazi Germany or Stalin's Soviet Union were created in this way, but were some of the most draconian the world has known.  Saudi Arabia has some of the most notorious laws the world has ever known.  There is no comparison between the Sharia laws, with penalties such as amputation and stoning, and the Patriot Act, which is conservative by US standards, and which I do not personally support, but simply gives the government more power to collect information from citizens and, especially, non-citizens.  No one is killed or amputated.

I also do not understand your reference to Brian Regan.  Where have you been?  Regan was sentenced to life in prison last March, not death as you seem to imply.  We haven't executed traitors for fifty years.  And Regan's crimes endangered the country, not someone's family.  This irrational obsession you have about adultry is one of the things that will keep you stuck in feudalism for many years to come.  And when is the man, the other adulterer, going to be stoned?  You say that you put to death those who break this "law," but it appears that the enforcement is highly discriminatory.  

You do make a good point about Texas - it executes dozens of people every year, and I think this is excessive.  The crimes that are comitted are always murder, not religious-based sins.  But Texas is considered too extreme by most of the rest of the country.  Most states rarely execute, even for murder.

Finally, it's hard for me to understand your sentences in your last paragraph, but it looks like you're suggesting that we might one day make it legal to kill doctors who perform abortions.  Since you are studying in this country, you should understand that this cannot happen since we are governed by a constitution, and this constitution applies to the entire country (unlike what has been suggested elsewhere in this forum).  What we might one day do is make abortion illegal, which is another matter entirely.  If we do, it will be done with due process and full democratic participation, and it will be unlikely that the death penalty will be imposed.  To suggest that we would be considered quaint colonizers for this doesn't make sense.  We are anything but quaint.

I guess I have a final point.  When the fatwa was issued against Salmon Rushdie, I looked eagerly for the Muslim reaction in this country.  Surely those who came here and understand the importance of free speech would speak out against this outrage, but I heard nothing.  I came to the conclusion that people who think it's reasonable to actually kill someone for something he has written do not belong in civilized society.  I was disheartened, but hold out hope that Muslims can learn the importance of practicing free speech and democracy, no matter what their clerics try to tell them.

Jack Fulcher

[al_hamza]

yes jack i fully support you, there should be no stonning for adultry and no amputation,

exactly you see me and you agree on alot of things,

so whats your mother doing tonight? u know actually am kinda free,

plus hey, you got any cash? i mean something valueable,

you see since i dont have to fear anything cos highest the imprisonment is for 6months, so lemme steal something that would make life easy for me, while you find it hard/impossible to continue with a normal life, but you see probably you'd survive it cos your nation sells arms to many of my african countries so that our people can kill each other,

as such your country can afford giving you allowances when you aint on a job.

and oh, since many of our african countries have finnaly started settling down from the wars, your "so beautiful country" has gone to war and taken control of the worlds 2nd largest deposits of oil and gassoline (since u dont call it petrol)

so bush can still pay for you to stay at home and find new ways of getting aids (through lovely adultry).

you see, lemme give you some of my own history, my father happens to be a fulani and my mother a kashmiri,

am sure bieng an american you know of kashmir, so as you can see iraqi's were "suffering" for hardly 30 years? under His Excelency General Saddam, yes he was a traitor as the americans would tell iraqi's because he was not able to conquer the US and lift the bans on imports of simple medicines and surgical equipments.

oh then we have east timor, the US wasnt concerned when indonesia was a success story. but when indonesian economy came falling down, we had the americans on the fore-front trying to rescue the east timorese,

so mr jack, you know i love america so much, when are the american troops going to free kashmir?
you see 70,000 kashmiri's have been massacred since 1947 by the occupational army of india, plus countless rapes, bodies are found swimming dead in the once "heaven's own river" (the british named kashmir heaven on earth) the main medium for generating income (fruits) has been levelled by the indian army,

june many years ago (i think it was 1943-5) , a man named Abdul-Kadir spoke against the dogra rule (the then king was a hindu) because it refused to do anything to the policeman that tore the Qur'an apart (Axtaghfurullah), so he was detained and was to be tried for treason in the srinagar central jail (srinagar is the capital of kashmir) on the 13th of july when he was to be tried, people from all over kashmir gathered outside the central jail, time for Asr came and a young kashmiri stood up for the call for prayer and he was immidiately shot dead by a dogra soldier, another kashmiri stood and continued from where the first had stopped, the second was also matyred, then another stood and continued and he was also matyred, a total of 22 were killed trying to call for the Adhan (kiran Sallah) or call for prayer.

so i hope you can see that the kashmiri's need the american messiahs more than anyother people, do you know that about 40% of kashmiri's suffer from one or the other kind of mental sickness? thats the highest in the world (i watched that on an indian news channel).

So when are you going to start helping?

so as i understand the US was made after the invasion of white man, who lived there before? as i saw on the national geographic channel :) the red indians actually owned the place, so as we all know the US helps the israelis with arms ammunations and money, ($10 billion in case you dont know) and american people and gov support israel because the jews actually owned the place, so mr jack straw (i love you) when are you going to give up the US and leave it to the indians?

You see if america has the right to exist then israel doesnt and if israel has the right to exist then america doesnt,

you see i have a Palestini friend that is a refugee in jordan, as he told me, when the americans are shouting for peace, israel actually bombards the palestinians with only hardly 2 weeks old bombs "MADE IN THE LOVELY US" (the israeli's dont take the shell casses with them after the massacres, do they?)

you see i can go on and on, but i wont, cos you are a sorry case, you even interfered in our civil war !!! in biafra, i will shed some history on that later,

and oh mr jack lemme tell you one more thing , i have been to the US and lived there for three months, i witnessed for myself the racism, you see bieng half african or full african doesnt matter as far as you aint white.

but hey, i loved the US though cos the people are really hard working and there's almost no corruption (at-least in the lower circles)

oh sorry i asked bout your mom,

yours Al-Hamza

[Eskimo]

So much has been said, but to be frank I always feel somehow when pple are talking about death penalty. why? coz who do not support it think they are doing disservice to Islam while the supporters think they are the true Muslim!

To me it is just strange that somebody should be killed by stonning. I once said I couldnt find the reference in Quran but I was told that the Law was found in Hadith. I know of such hadith, infact about 3 or 4 talking about stonnig, yet in them I only see that those who stoned to death lack any locus standi for doing so. Those hadith's authentiticy is not sound enough for them to be used in taking a sacred life of human being.

I am never against death penalty..atleast if u kill sombody you should also be killed...and many other crimes "punishable" by death. but where is it in Islam ( I mean authentic, uncorrupted from God - Quran ) is killing for a crime mentioned as the only punishment.

Let me remind myself of major occasions where killing is prescribed in the Sharia law:

1. Causing Mischief and waging war against God (Treason)
2. Murder
3. Adultery

Let analyse the prescribed punishments direct from Holy Quran (Yusuf Ali's translation):

"On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - UNLESS IT BE FOR MURDER or FOR SPREADING MISCHIEF IN THE LAND - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land."
"The punishment of those who WAGE WAR AGAINST ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER, AND STRIVE WITH MIGHT AND MAIN FOR MISCHIEF THROUGH THE LAND is: EXECUTION, or CRUCIFIXION, or the CUTTING OFF OF HANDS AND FEET FROM OPPOSITE SIDES, or EXILE FROM THE LAND: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;" 5:32-33

The above 2 verses have taken care of treason the offence some ulama consider it to include conversion from Islam despite the saying of almighty Allah that there is no compulsion in religion. Even so, the punishment does not only stop on killing other punishment are said by the most merciful God. why dont we apply them: must people be killed for merely changing religions.

As for commiting murder the punishment is surely death as said precisely by God to the children of israel; The first verse only narrates what was given to the Jews. It stops short of asking Muslims to do the same. Another verse in Quran support that the said punishment is wriiten to the Jews although that is the verse muslim jurists mostly use for basing their argument for Death penalty on murderers.

"It was We who revealed the Torah: therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are Unbelievers."
"We ordained THERE IN FOR THEM: "LIFE FOR LIFE, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are wrong-doers." 5:44-45
in another verse of the holy book God now said the punishment for murder in clear terms for the muslims:
"Never should a believer kill a believer; but (If it so happens) by mistake, (Compensation is due): If one (so) kills a believer, it is ordained that he should free a believing slave, and pay compensation to the deceased's family, unless they remit it freely. If the deceased belonged to a people at war with you, and he was a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (Is enough). If he belonged to a people with whom ye have treaty of Mutual alliance, compensation should be paid to his family, and a believing slave be freed. For those who find this beyond their means, (is prescribed) a fast for two months running: by way of repentance to Allah: for Allah hath all knowledge and all wisdom."
"If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him." 4:-92-93
Similar thing is said in 48:25


The 3rd case: ADULTERY is the most controversial coz it is not mentioned anywhere in the quran. on the contrary thepunishment was prescribed cleary in the quran for the offence. But because in some hadith a contradictory punishment was prescribed the muslim jurists in their attempt to explain the contradiction the divide the punishment into two.

The lenient one said by Allah in the quran is for the Unmarried, although the maker of the laws didnt specify so.

The harsh one said to have been found in hadith is for the married or those who were once married.

But the saying of Allah on the adultery or fornication or any name you give it is the same if we look at the situations ie asbab nuzul as said by the so called commentators of quran.
Allah said in Surat Nur:
"The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment." 24:2
(Pickthall translate the lone Arabic word Az-zaani as Adulterer while Shakir translate it as Furnicator but Yusuf ali used both.
they are all right as in arabic there is no difference between the two words)

Every muslim must agree with me that the said verse was revealed in connection to Mother of believers Ayesha the WIFE (MARRIED OR NOT MARRIED?) of the prophet (SAW) when some Medina hypocrites accussed her of commiting adultery.

In one of the popular stonning Hadith, Ma'iz (the adulterer) reported himself to the prophet...the prophet asked "IS THIS MAN DRUNK?", they said "No". He asked "IS HE SANE?" they replied "NO" and then he ordered them to go and stone him. It was reported while they are stonning him he tried to run away but they overpowered him and slain him. When they narrated it to the Prophet he said they should have let him go for that showed his repentance. Note that the prophet didnt ask whether he was married or not.

The point here is that Muslim used to stone their adulterers but later when surat Nur was revealed they Law was abrogated.

Having seen that I wonder which religion are we depending by depending Death Penalty: as if they say we should stop going to hajj. haba Muslims, are we that blood thirsty? I am not saying here that it is wrong to kill a murderer or somebody who commits treason; although it WRONG to kill an adulterer: but my point is that the laws are not rigid. they are flexible to suit the people who want to apply them. that is the beauty of Islam: FLEXIBILTY to suit all nations. Our holy book is made easy to understand in plain arabic. It is only unfortunate that our Ulamas instead of preaching the simplicity and flexibilty of Islam, they go extreme and make things difficult for the muslim. unless Muslim come to understand their religion full and shun extremist the like of Osama ben Laden and Talibans, they will remain in the background of the affairs of this world.

May Allah guide us to his straight path

[Anonymous]

Mr Fulcher makes serious points from a humanitarian point of view. The whole world is watching Nigeria and the case of Mallama Lawal. It is therfore very disappointing to read Al Hamza's very deeply offensive reply to this which does Kanoonline serious harm.(and, more important, which answers none of the points).
I have no love of the US - especially now, after its illegal and murderous assault on Iraq. The out-of-control US with a dangerous simpleton as President represents the greatest potential evil in the world today. There is also much racism still in the US. Many intelligent Americans,however, are totally opposed to the behaviour of their government.
However none of this has anything to do with the debate about whether a poor Nigerian girl should be stoned to death for adultery. So let us get the debate back on line.
Well said, Eskimo. Understanding is the key to everything.
A body of law is only as good as whoever is interpreting it. A judge should be highly intelligent, highly informed but know also the value of mercy and compassion.
There are some questions.
Did Amina commit Adultery by herself? (Not possible.)
Why are we hearing nothing from "the girls" on this topic?
If Amina was your sister (or your mother) should she be stoned?
Do the men never commit adultery in Nigeria?
Do we see many rich,important men (or women) in front of the Sharia court, or is it just the poor people?
Which of the contributors to Kano Online supporting stoning and amputation is without sin himself?

I always remember a remark made by an educationalist I worked with in KEDC many years ago, who was a wise, good and honest Kano man. He was talking about corruption ruining Nigeria (all those years ago). He said  to me. "Mr Hill, if we were to amputate the hands of all our thieves, there would be very few of our big men able to drive their Mercedes.Yet we still stone to death a poor, hungry man who steals some small bread in the market."
I pray (to my God, who is also your God) for Amina Lawal.

[Anonymous]

David, how old are you? Please get a life. Who is more likely to see prison in America a poor or wealthy person? Use your common sense and stop asking these ridiculous questions. If wrongdoers are made out of an example, people would shy from committing the sin or think twice. Just as theft; if criminals were amputated the American crime rate would lower drastically, and if adulters and fornicators were made an example of, shameful single parent households would not be so popular as they are in America and the west. It's obvious you have not been reading your Bible. Read the commandments and laws of Moses(A.S) I hope you are not a hippy. You talk about humanity while in America two men may live as a couple publicly. The west doesn't have the answers to everything, actually many times they make problems worse. They have their own social dilemmas to deal with that remain uncured, but they wish to point their fingers at others, while their hands are dirty.
  If one is able to read, Islam gives us the best solution to all problems.Islam is perfected, and following the laws and guidance of Allah(s.w.t) is the only straight path for all humanity, amiin. Al-Hamza made wonderful points. I read Jack's reply he needs teaching and his point, (if he had one) lost direction, but we must make the non-understanding, understand. And teach the young and the elderly, even if they are old and not thinking clearly.

Babatunde Eko
Illorin

[Eskimo]

Oh Amina Lawan...Run away and hide yourself from your killers. Will they listen to the holy prophet and admit that you are repentan and leave you alone or will they chase you and stone you again his Hadith.

If we are not careful Amina's case will be like that of Safiyyah - A minus to the muslim ummah.

Spill not the blood of Amina or any suppose adulterer or we should let the Innocent among us cast the first stone.

[al_hamza]

Guiness book of world records happens to be irish i understand and scots are really good pals of the irish i believe, mr dave, u know i accept am very stupid and a rediculous personality and a danger to the kanoonline forum, could you please verify this in the guiness book of world records? that 25% of the worlds prison population lives in the US? and that as low as 0.15% of the prison population lives in Saudi jail, most of them foriegners?
intrestingly the book also indicates that this is so because of the "harsh capital" punishment!!!

whatever u wanna call it, living in saudi is safer than living in the US..

its better for me to live in a sharia abiding nation, spending time with my family than to live in the US, where every weekend i'll go to a different club, my wife to another, my daughter ending up with a bastard in her stomach, my wife drinking and filing for divorce, myself driving like a mad man, killing innocent people, making thier mothers cry on the couch while all i get punished by is having my driver's liscense snatched, my son ending up on drugs or marrijuana,

spending my last days in an "old home" where my eyes would close when i die without seeing my loved ones,

mr dave, sorry

u have lost the case

case closed

[Anonymous]

I suggest you guys should take the issue of your nationalities to another topic.
you are please killing an interesting topic.
we are only talking about death penalty not i hate america i love saudi or whatever.
if u dont have any solid thing to offer better leqave us alone! 8)

[Muhammad]

Salam
I more or less agree with Eskimo's proposition. We are missing the point here. The issue at stake is the relevance of death penalty in the 21st century. Obviously some despise it while some, like myself, see it as an efficient punishment of ridding the society of certain offenders.
Mr Fulcher for you not to see the similarities between the Patroit act and the Sharia-act means you are been selectively perceptive. The patriot act does not call for amputation or killing, but what I wanted to convey in using it was, both laws were made by elected representatives of the people.
Going back to Regan, are you saying that, no laws exist in the US statutes that call for killing traitors? Just because Regan was left off the hook does not mean others would not face a more dire fate when caught spying (especially with the bigot?? & Racist?? Ashcroft in the helms of the Justice ministry).
Lastly, Salman Rushdie is yet another case of cultural perception of the 'magnitude of crime'. True, in the western pysche, free speech is condoned even when it borders sacrilage. For a spritual communities like Nigeria, Iran or Saudi Arabia divine laws are taken seriously and they are beyond challenge. So, you must understand that defiling the prophet in speech or otherwise is a capital offense in Muslim communities and the punishment is most severe indeed.
There are laws in the western society that do not make sense to Muslims. This might include but not limited to the laws on polygamy. Polygamy is a felony in all 50 states of the US of A.
Do you see my point. IE the world is different and as such different laws exists to deal with similar crimes.
I rest my case
Bissalam

[Jack_Fulcher]

Hi everyone!  This has certainly been an interesting discussion.  I am hopeful, after reading some of the posts, that there is a bright future for beautiful Nigeria and that its students will be able to lift the country out of poverty through their thoughtful leadership.  My primay point for my initial post was one reiterated by Eskimo, that unless muslims reject the extreme teachings and practices of some of their clerics, the Taliban, and bin Laden, "they will remain in the background in the affairs of this world."  You are certainly free to stone women and amputate thieves, but the world is watching you and investors will not be interested in your country and tourists will shun you.  You might argue that this is of little interest to you, that you prefer isolation and care little for economic development, but I really don't believe that.  You do, after all, send your brightest students to study in the West, and I know that this is because you want your lives, and the lives of your parents and children, to be better.  This will not happen if you continue to tell the world that you wish instead to live in the 7th century.

I say that I am hopeful, and this is even after reading the posts of al Hamza and Babatunde Eko, which are personally offensive and, frankly, childish.  They at least are willing to participate in a dialogue about their country and future.  This is very important, as many young people are just not interested in discussing politics or social problems.  

I will try to address some of the points made in the last several posts (I need to go soon as this is our "Labor Day" weekend and one of our national holidays).  First, I am appalled that you, al Hamza, support Saddam (or as you call him, "His Excellency General Saddam").  This guy killed more Muslims than any other person in history.  He butchered the Kurds, often using chemical weapons on them, and then butchered the Shiites.  As a Muslim you should be happy that he is gone.  I never have understood why other Muslim countries stood by why he was killing so many of his own Muslim people, yet are so quick to criticize the US when they do the work of removing him.  I personally did not support this war and have no use for Bush (I'm a Democrat and voted for Gore), but you must admit that the world is a much better place now that Saddam and his murderous sons are out of the picture.  You're welcome.

You also make several more points that have nothing to do with the topic, such as problems in the US or problems with Israel, but the "Advisor" makes a good point that this has nothing to do with the issue at hand:  whether it is reasonable to take the life of this young woman because she has committed adultry.  I will say, however al Hamza, that my mother is 82 and does not date, and if you come over to her house she will probably kick your butt. ;)

Some here have made the point that crimes should be punished, and what better punishment is there than to kill the person?  Certainly this will teach them a lesson.  Excuse my sarcasm, but the general argument that harsh punishment is needed to deter criminal behavior is good up to a point, but you could use the same argument to say that you should be killed for even simple traffic violations.  It is not sufficient to say that there is less theft now that you've started to amputate arms - of course there is.  Why not just kill the thieves?  That will reduce the crime rate, certainly.  No, you must balance your desire to reduce crime with the interests of justice and fairness for your people.  These sorts of punishments were abandoned by the civilized world many centuries ago.  In my country, we punish petty theft with time in prison, and if the crime is violent (like using a weapon during the theft) the punishment is several years in prison.  We have the death penalty, but it almost always applies to multiple murders.  In California, if you commit three or more felonies, you get life in prison.  I consider this harsh, but my point is that there are ways to deter crime without amputations or killing for such things as adultry.  

I'd like to quote from something I found elsewhere on the Kanoonline.com web site.  This is from an article written by Ibraheem A. Waziri at http://www.kanoonline.com/cgi-bin/articles/template.php/iaw010.txt.  He relates a story about the Prophet who had to judge a common problem:

"The son of one slept with the wife of the other. There and then our beloved Prophet ordered that the son be caned and exiled for one year and summoned Unais Al-aslamiy to go and ask the wife, with clear instruction to stone her in the event of her confession. So she confessed and so she was stoned."  One of the things that disturbs me about this quote is that the writer made no comment.  Does he not see the injustice of the treatment of the individuals here?  The man was beaten with a stick and exiled for a year, while the woman was killed.  Muslims profess to love their wives and daughters, yet seem to think this sort of "justice" is just fine.  They say that Westerners do not respect women because they are allowed to wear clothing that reveals their faces, arms and legs, yet if a Muslim woman is raped, she cannot have the rapist punished unless there are four male witnesses who are willing to testify for her.  If she reports the rape, and if she cannot get four men to speak for her (and how often is there even one witness to a rape?), under Shariah law, "she’ll be convicted of false testimony and sentenced for having intercourse outside marriage."  (From the same article)  So this means that a raped woman had better just shut up, or she'll be killed under this law.  It looks to me like you just want men to have their way with women, and if they complain they'll be executed.  Do you not love your sisters, mothers, daughters?  What sort of world are you creating for them with these sorts of laws?  Can you see how the rest of the world is appalled at your implementation of Shariah?

Eskimo and Mr. Hill make good points when they say that the laws of Islam should be applied with judgement and flexibility.  The Christian bible also talks of stoning and harsh punishments, but even the most fundamentalist of Christians realize that these punishments are not appropriate for the modern world.  Our punishments are designed to both deter crime and balance the freedoms necessary for a happy and productive society.  These are the goals I am sure you all want for your families and descendants.  Please don't isolate yourselves from the rest of the world.

Have a lot more to say, but have to go.
Peace.  Jack Fulcher