Hama vs Fatah;What a demoralizing?

[lionger]

Waziri

This conflict cannot in any way be compared to the Maitatsine riots of the 80s. Such comparisons only serve to heavily understate the Darfur crisis. The Maitatsine movement was a rebel Muslim sect that violently challenged all established authorities, secular(state) and islamic, in Northern Nigeria; seeking to establish their 'Maitatsine' as absolute leader. The Janjaweed, on the other hand, are not a religious sect, nor are they a 'rebel wing' of any sort. They are a militia group derived from nomadic Arab ethnicities of the region, armed by the Sudanese government to resist the rebel groups in Darfur, against whom the regular army had previously suffered serious reverses when the conflict escalated in early 2003.

So the difference is clear:
1.One was a religious sect, the other mainly ethnic militia;
2. One sprang up outside the government and against the government; the other was established by and wages war with government forces.
3. And last but not least, the Janjaweed has caused far more misery that the Maitatsine riots did.

Contrary to what the Sudanese government says, the UN, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and other human rights groups have all declared that the Janjaweed is government-backed. They all agree with the Nigerian general. I've never heard any group or media describe the Janjaweed as a rebel group out of control - what are they rebelling against? They arent. The argument over whether this constitutes as genocide or not, over 400,000 people are dead, another 2.5 million homeless. That should be enough.

[Muhsin]

Wel said, Lionger.
We have a saying in Scotland
"There's nane sae blind as thaim that willna see"
meaning
"There is nobody as blind as a person who refuses to see what is in front of him."

Let me first of all start by thanking our heavy-weight Forum member. Thanks for your brusqueness.

[Muhsin]

No enough time. Hope to reply fully on your comments.....hold on!

[Muhsin]

No enough time. Hope to reply fully on your comments when i came back.....hold on!

[HUSNAA]

Lol Husnaa, what an amusing response!  And I very much doubt that Ete will reappear any time soon. Wouldn't really be surprised if he disappeared in the same way that those Yerima threads did...

!!!YOU MEAN ETE WAS DELETED LIKE THE YERIMA THREADS??!!!
i'M OUTTA HERE PRONTO!!

[_Waziri_]

I still stand by my understanding that Darfur's crisis is a rebellion that has no blessing from the government of Sudan just like Maitatsine crisis of the early 80's of Nigeria that was way out of the control of the government.

Again, for us Muslims following the Western Media with keen interest and its war on Islam vis a vis the West's long standing antagonism to the Sudanese Government on issues of foreing policies and laws, we find it very difficult to agree with them now when they accuse the Sudanese government of complicity in the crisis bedeviling Darfur. Infact, we would not be suprised if it is said the Janjaweed gets some covert aproval and support from the West in carrying its activities. That the government of Sudan maybe black painted and that the West may find reason to bring to bear on another Arab soil, the presence of its heavy military machinary. 

[Muhsin]

General Colin Powell addressed the UN on this matter and described what is being done to the black people of Darfur as "genocide".

Let me start by you old Dave.
Question: Who is Colin Powel that his words would be taken as that of saint?
Remember where he's now. And why is he there? Simply its because of groundless allegation against Iraq, isn't it? And this is something that everybody has already seen its bare bone. C'mon, stop saying that as a mere reason. Ok? If not............ :-[ ???

[Muhsin]

Lionger,
To be honest, I can simply say a bit well said. But with lots of miscosntrues.

Muhsin,

C'mon Husnaa, how could you let lionger's words make your blood run cold? Don't you know their part? Remember......

Please point out what I said that would make Husnaa's blood boil. And what do you mean by 'our part'? Making the same mistake Husnaa did?

Well, I here don't know what mistake you actually are talking of. Need to clarify. And my meaning by your part is plainly your belief. Hope I didn't sound too .......

Dave, you don't know the actual happenings there,I think. But those that are saying to have being killed by Janjawid are not Muslims. And that's why UN, US, UK and host of other external 'friends' of Muslims are worried. And as everyone is aware, Arabs are very racial; they (whites) can even murder the black ones 'cuz of colour difference. If that is the case. But God knows the best.

I think you really need to get your facts right, not Dave. Firstly, the people of Darfur are overwhelmingly muslim. Look it up! This is not like the sudanese civil war that pitted the muslim north against the christian/animist south. The Darfurians are all muslim, African (for the most part, there are some Arab ethnicities) and they all speak Arabic. So you ought to be very concerned about Darfur - even more so than  Palestine. According to the UN and other NGO sources, over 400,000 Darfurian civillians are dead and over 2 million have left their homes in the 3+ years of fighting. Isn't that something to be concerned about? Never mind the fact that their being non-muslim should not make you apathetic!

UN and intl community concern has to do with the escalating humanitarian crisis, not the religious affiliation of Darfur victims.

Sincerely, I now come to understanding that they really are almost all Muslims. But again,UN, US or others has a  concealed agenda towards that undeveloped counrty which has 'ocean' of petrol. I think thats what they eventually want more that peace there. Thats why Umar Al-bashar is agaist sending their troops to his country as peacekeepers. I'm just conjecturing here!

Secondly,

OBJ's has, to me, done nothing to call this off. What a person who fails restore peace in his home could have done so in others? What's happening nowadays in Niger-Delta oil region?

What do you mean, 'OBJ has done nothing'? Nigerian troops make up a significant fraction of the 7000 AU peacekeeping forces currently in Darfur, and Nigeria has hosted peace talks between the rivalling parties. Nigeria and the AU have fallen short because they are ill-equipped and underfunded. The AU force was to be replaced by a much stronger and larger UN force long ago, but that didn't happen due to Sudanese opposition. Worse, the newly estabished UN Human Rights Council would rather discuss Israel and nothing else. It has taken increased pressure and clamoring from human rights groups, the international community and even Kofi Annan, for the Council to 'send a fact-finding team of experts' to the Sudan. Yet amazingly, this Council has 13 African members and over a third of its membership are OIC members! Shouldn't these nations know better?

Catagorically yes! Are the so-called Nigerian troops you were talking of send there under Nigerian flag? No! They are send under AU, but OBJ maintain the facade that they are under his country. I have heard that all their finance is in dollars. Thus do you think OBJ can do that? And hosting peace talk. When did it started? And what position is OBJ's then in AU? So, its something that he must do he did.

Now concerning the Iraq situation you said

Yes I know its but there is thick line of demacation between the two. Eg You know how Shiites are; and you know their beliefs towards many true Islmaic fundementals. Thus no need to say much on that, ok?

Haba Muhsin, are you implying that the Shiites are the only guilty sect in Iraq? Nothing could be farther from the truth! Please don't fall victim to an 'us vs. them' mentality; this ruins objectivity. I fear that this attitude is partly responsible for the apathetic response to Darfur.  International pressure from the West on Sudan is obviously perceived by some as a an attack on Sudan's Islamic image/identity. Coupled with widespread ignorance of what is really happening there, this has goaded many into passing off what is infact an urgent humanitarian crises. This is indeed a tragedy!

Even if Shiites aren't they are the keys. And I doubt if you know who presicely is Shiites in Islam. If you do, you wouldn't have expressed you support for whatsoever they commited. I think I would have to post a thread on who is Shiites or you would have to search for that since you frequent the Internet.

Thanks for your interest on such affair. 8)

[lionger]

Muhsin

Sincerely, I now come to understanding that they really are almost all Muslims. But again,UN, US or others has a concealed agenda towards that undeveloped counrty which has 'ocean' of petrol. I think thats what they eventually want more that peace there. Thats why Umar Al-bashar is agaist sending their troops to his country as peacekeepers. I'm just conjecturing here!

Well of course this is all conjecture;  and of questionable basis. Before you said the UN was only interested because the victims were non-Muslim. Now that has been debunked, you're saying the UN is only interested because of oil. Obviously your stern belief is that the UN cannot have pure motives in drawing attention to Darfur. Is there basis for such reasoning?

Catagorically yes! Are the so-called Nigerian troops you were talking of send there under Nigerian flag? No! They are send under AU, but OBJ maintain the facade that they are under his country. I have heard that all their finance is in dollars. Thus do you think OBJ can do that? And hosting peace talk. When did it started? And what position is OBJ's then in AU? So, its something that he must do he did.

OBJ's efforts in Darfur may be solely the result his responsibilities as AU head, but that is besides the point. If you accept that he indeed acted through the AU, then how can you still claim that he has 'done nothing'? Nigeria has supplied more troops than anyone else, haven't they? Has OBJ not done more through the AU than others? Your statement makes no sense.

Even if Shiites aren't they are the keys. And I doubt if you know who presicely is Shiites in Islam. If you do, you wouldn't have expressed you support for whatsoever they commited. I think I would have to post a thread on who is Shiites or you would have to search for that since you frequent the Internet.

You completely misunderstood my words! Nowhere did I express any support whatsoever for the Shiites. What I'm saying is that it is very wrong and thoroughly incorrect of anyone to claim that the sectarian violence in Iraq is solely because of the Shiites and not the Sunnis. Precise knowledge of the Shiites and their beliefs is not the point. The point is that both the Sunnis and the Shiites have contributed much to the misery in Iraq. Once again I suspect that your facts are not quite in order.

[lionger]

I still stand by my understanding that Darfur's crisis is a rebellion that has no blessing from the government of Sudan just like Maitatsine crisis of the early 80's of Nigeria that was way out of the control of the government.

This does not address in any way the concerns I brought up. Thus, I'm afraid your argument remains in the awkward position of being groundless.

Again, for us Muslims following the Western Media with keen interest and its war on Islam vis a vis the West's long standing antagonism to the Sudanese Government on issues of foreing policies and laws, we find it very difficult to agree with them now when they accuse the Sudanese government of complicity in the crisis bedeviling Darfur. Infact, we would not be suprised if it is said the Janjaweed gets some covert aproval and support from the West in carrying its activities. That the government of Sudan maybe black painted and that the West may find reason to bring to bear on another Arab soil, the presence of its heavy military machinary.

This 'Western/media bias' argument is a much overused, and in this case, utterly tragic excuse. Must the Darfurian civillians be abandoned to die just so we can score a meaningless point of defiance against the West? This validates what I said to Muhsin earlier:

International pressure from the West on Sudan is obviously perceived by some as a an attack on Sudan's Islamic image/identity. Coupled with widespread ignorance of what is really happening there, this has goaded many into passing off what is infact an urgent humanitarian crises. This is indeed a tragedy!

[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

I sympathise completely with you on this one, Lionger. As I pointed out in an earlier post ther are some in this forum who are blind on this issue - and deliberately so. They refuse to see.

[_Waziri_]

Dave,

For it is the hard truth. Many a times you too have expressed doubts on certain reports given by the Western Media even when you do not have better means of verifying their claims. For Muslim world, the West is worst. We have lost confidence in their tone of objective reporting to the extent that we do not know when to believe them or not. What is not without political connotation in their reporting and what is.

In as much as we unanimouly condemn what is happening in Darfur, we also can't not agree with the West on every reporting it makes about the complicity of the Sudanese Government on the crisis. In Iraq we saw a claim of WMD that was not so also in Sudan we may see a claim of something that is not. We can't allow ourselves to be fooled always.

I have stopped responding at Lionger long ago, since after he attacked my personality on the other issues confirming my assertion that  he is not my mate in any discourse concerning the politics, sociology and other indices of human deveplopment across the globe.

[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

I am perfectly happy to take the word of the leader of the African peace keeping troops in Darfur, though of course you will probably imagine that he is a poodle of the West as well.
There is no point in me continuing this thread with you.
The death toll in the Darfur region is now estimated to be 400,000 black people.
It is probably more comfortable to pretend they did not exist.

[NewEte]

Husnaa, you need to calm down and not get overly excited over my extended absence from this forum.
Ok, I am back. Now what?  ;D

Ete

[_Waziri_]

Suit ya self Dave, it is fine with me.