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Mr. Fulcher invited us, in the other thread, to understand the essence of his religion, that is economitism and its literature. But fortunately by mere mention of it, we understand that we have idea about it, because basically it formed the crux of intellectual discourses in the preceding century, which we all  have been part.

What remains is for us to understand our literature here with Mr. Fulcher, our constitution, the future world constitution. This post seeks for nothing more than  to introduce it to Mr. Fulcher.

Qur'an is a book by God which was revealed in the 7th Century. It consist of 114 chapters. Each chapter carries a title like, The Opening, which marks the beginning of the book and it is as follows:

In the Name of Allah Most Gracious Most Merciful

Praise be to Allah the Lord of all creation (1)

Most Gracious Most merciful(2)

Master of the day of Judgement(3)

You do we worship and to you we resign for help(4)

Guide us unto the straight path(5)

The path of those whom you are content with not those who incur your wrath(6)

This is The Opening, a chapter with only six verses. The expression, In the name of Allah the beneficent the merciful, marks the beginning of some 113 Chapters in the Qur'an.

The number of verses in every chapter varies, with six, like in The Opening, and four in The Unity. And some 286 in The Cow, which is the lengthiest of all the chapters.

Qur'an is recorded and read like a work of poetry. The rhyme, the meter and the elegance in its expression carry all the character in the work of poetry. Though it is not sang in its Arabic form, but when recited, it easily assumes a tune which the reciter is free to model in his own desires. Thus we here Prof. A.J. Arberry in his translation of the Qur'an saying: "That inimitable symphony which moves men to ecstacy and tears".

 
Qur'an is believed by the Muslims to be a guide in everything they do. All legal, Social, Political theories should trace their etymology to the Qur'an.  It exhorts man  to reason and study nature. It's major part speaks about the relationship between men and women, then economy, then rituals, then history, then hereafter, creation and how the past generations treated their prophets and how the word of God found meaning in their actions.

In Qur'an one cannot find the History of Mohammed or how he ran his ministry. In fact he was mentioned by name only 5  times.

Qur'an is purely the word of God always speaking in first person singular. Some time issuing a command to Muhammad to tell people or directly to the people with Muhammad as mouth piece.

Qur'an boasts of being without contradiction for it says : " Do they not ponder over this Qur'an, had it been it is from someone other than God, they would find therein many a discrepancies".

Concerning God it says in The Unity:

Say ( O Muhammad) Allah is one and only(1)

Allah the eternal absolute(2)

He does not beget, nor is He begotten(3)

And there is none like unto Him(4)

Concerning the origin of man it says:

"O Mankind, we have created you from pair of man and woman and made you into nations and tribes that you may recognise one another not that you may despise one another verily the most pious in the sight of Allah is he who reveres Him most"

Concerning women it says:


And for women are rights over men similar to those of men over women. (2:226)


Who so does that which is right, and believes, whether male or female, him or her will We quicken to happy life. (16:97)  

O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them - except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and Allah will bring about through it a great deal of good. (4:19)
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O mankind! Reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, his mate, and from this pair scattered (like seeds) countless men and women. Reverence Allah, through Whom you demand your mutual (rights), and reverence the wombs (that bore you); for Allah ever watches over you. (4:1)
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And among His signs is this, that He has created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquillity with them; and He has put love and mercy between you. Verily in that are signs for those who reflect. (30:21)
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These and many other verses. doesn't it look like a 21st century Feminists Scripts?


Now Mr. Fulcher does this sound like an old book written sometime in the 7th century?

Professor Moore, Keith Moore one of the leading embryologist in the world took to reaserch on the Qur’an on verses which spoke about his field of endeavour and to his surprise all what he found did not contradict the scientific realities in that field. In the final analysis he concluded that his careful study into those verses only helped him discovered more astonishing truths.

This Is Qur'an for you. I believe if you would read on your own you would see more than what you hear about it in CNN. But nevertheless keep a date with us here.

Waziri

I thank you for providing these passages, Mr. Waziri.  These are very beautiful phrases and it is clear that you provide them out of love for the Quran.  This is a book I read years ago and I am glad to be reminded of its elegance and beauty.

You mention that my own religion is economics; I was trying to make a bad joke when I said this, but it is my profession and I do believe in its mathematical conclusions.  For instance, I believe that we can all benefit from an increase in productivity and efficiency; and I believe that, using free markets, the world can work together to make everyone more comfortable and give everyone more choices in their lives.  This is a relatively new idea, because before the 17th century people generally still thought that all of their important decisions about work, marriage, and production should be made by the church, their parents, and the king.  Adam Smith’s “Wealth of Nations” showed that these decisions can be made by individuals and the world will be better off.  Using free markets and individual preferences, the society will be guided “as though by an invisible hand” to the most efficient mix of production and distribution.  This sounds like religion, doesn’t it?

I know a little about Islamic economics.  For instance, I understand that charging interest is not allowed.  It’s not clear to me how this works.  Is the time value of money not recognized?  How can money be borrowed for investment?

While I would not concede that the passages you quote sound like modern feminist writings, they are beautiful and I would like to quote from one you provide:  “live with them on a footing of kindness and equity.”  I believe that all should be treated with kindness and equity.  This was one of the reasons I began to post to this forum.  It appeared that, under the Shariah laws, women are not treated with equity.  It appears that I was not correct about the Shariah, and that the problem is with a particular interpretation of the Shariah.  I make this point elsewhere in the “Death penalty in Islam” thread.  Under Mr. Waziri’s and al-Hamza’s interpretation of Shariah law, women must have four witnesses to be able to bring the criminal to justice.  This is not equity, since men do all the raping and almost all of the other violent crimes, and there is almost never four witnesses to these acts.  

Now Mr. Waziri has provided us a beautiful passage from the Quran that indicates that equity between men and women is required.  In other words, they should be treated equally in the justice system, in education, at home, and in the workplace.  This would suggest to me that they should be able to receive an education, get a job, and drive to work.  None of this was possible under the Taliban, for instance.  Nor is it possible under other Islamic regimes such as Saudi Arabia, Iran, Kuwait, or Yemen.  Is equity possible under the interpretation of the Shariah laws in Northern Nigeria?

Before al-Hamza starts to yell “it’s none of your business!  Leave us alone!” I will say that my “religion” of economics would argue that this is everyone’s business.  Labor is the most important input in production, and women are a very valuable resource.  If they are constrained to stay at home, or are constrained to only a few professions, that resource is being wasted.  They can be employed throughout an economy, and they have contributed significantly in our own economy, as well as in those in Europe.  Please do not squander this resource, as your production helps not only yourselves, they help your neighbors and those who trade with you.

Speaking of Europe, we have an Austrian weightlifter and actor for governor now.  What an amazing development.  California is a nutty place sometimes.  Hasta la vista, baby!

Jack

You see Mr Fulcher, though I can easily agree with you that I provided to your examination these passages from Qur'an out of my love for the Book, yet I believe you can reason with me on the not-so-ancient nature of the message enshrined in them. You can also easily see through the reason why I should passionately love my Qur'an on every footing of rationality.

Mr. Fulcher, it appears like all your views of history stem in Europe, and all developments are only a product of the 17th century enlightment. No. Mr. Fulcher, the truth of the matter is before that 17th Century, a good number of the ideas you expressed about living , economics, social, and political are in place or even in practice in Muslim countries. In Islam nobody decides for you your marriage, or work . In Islam there is no theocracy. Clergies do not have control over production. There is always the state and the code of conduct which defines what is right and what is wrong and it is the Qur'an. Just like the constitution in USA today. I suggest you read some of your historians who dwelled a lot on the Islamic world before the seventeen century. They are ppl like Arnold Tonbee, Edward Gibbon, Bertrand Russel and many other objective critics.

In Islamic Economics, money has time value in trade investment only. But one cannot borrow out money and expect an aditional money when the return is made. It is recognized that partnership can be initiated but ones a word "borrow" is mention it is understood to be a sort of assistance that does not attract interest. In Islam possibility of risk is incorporated into Business relationships even if there is no assurance company to take care of that. A bank will not give you loan and expect you to pay back their money at all cost without accomodating the possibility of accidents.

Yes, the passages from Qur'an I provided demand for equity between the two different but equal gender. But yet that does not say a woman should make any claim and be attended to anyhow. Laws are not approached with emotions. As I have outlined in the other post, when we say a woman raped a man, what we are saying is she seduced him. Which is very common these days. Just as you observed that the tendency to rape is only in men. We can equally conclude that the tendency to sublimate sexual urge and avoid seduction is not in men. I think in this we can all work together and avoid the common scenario  that brings about the frequent incidents of rape by seeing that women appear more modest in dress, speech and acts.

And I also think we can achieve some consolation if we try to reduce the inequality and exploitation of women's sexual organs of the porno industries. In this modern civilisation  women are encouraged to see themselves not as humanbeings but sexual objects. This, by the way they are encouraged to dress and present themselves to the public and in the advertisements houses and upon all the porno industries. I think these are where the problem really lies not in saying she must produce four witnesses in a case like that of rape.

You see Jack in my community here in Zaria. We numbered up to 1949, the children, the youth and the old. Among this population is 128 studying in various tatiary institutions of learning across the country, of this 128,  57 are women.

And all the ladies you are seeing here on this board are a product of Islamic culture, even the recent Nobel Prize Winner on peace, the lady from Iran is a product of Islamic culture, where is this gender sensitivity you are talking about.

You see, I came from my lawyer this morning - because I am involved in some court case for over six months now - to type this, the lawyer  is a woman. The judge who is handling the case is also is a woman. And my younger sister - 18 years old- is a second year student of law in our university here.

You see, when you speak about this gender sensitivity I begin to wonder whether you should try to get information from the native of these countries not only rely on the much you here from your media. There is a battle of Ideology that is going on and I think you should take that in to account in every conclusion you are making regarding us.

Arnold is your governor but what is it you are doing about his attitude towards women. I am afraid he may attempt to cajole some of his cohorts up there into making it a law in California. That one is free to harrass a woman ;D

jack fulcher. time value of money isnt recognised cos d lender doesnt take any risk. if u lend me money at 5% n i lose, u can still take me to court. in islamic economic theory there r things like mudarraba n shirkat-e-enan (they r basically equal share of risk n profit)i.e. if i make a 5% profit, we share it according to d proportion of ur contribution. so also if i lose.

about inputs n labor. well muslims believe that this world is a workplace for retirement either in heaven or hell. d quran n hadith r d workers' handbooks. there has been some debate about d interpretation of d quran. read up d debates b/w asharites n mutazilites. i recommend malise ruthven's "islam in d world."

this goes out to jack fulcher:

how comes that the so often cited free world with a free trade is still denying those rights to the poor countries? some nations led by african leaders claimed equal economic rights on the cancun meeting, but the wto denied it to them. african countries are still not freed from "protection taxes" that are put on their products when they want to import to the developped countries. those nations help the local farmers to produce loads of uneconomic exceeds with subventions, that make it impossible to sell acricultural products to those nations. african leaders did NOT ask for charity, all they demanded was the right to participate in a free trade.

its just too much nasty pretention going on. if economic is your "religion" (or at least the most important thing for you) than satan is your ruler. we all get what god almighty reserved for us, so there is no need to run for that money and be greedy. god is one

Thank you for your posts, Bashir and Maleek.  

It looks, Bashir, like the only way to raise capital for your business, in an Islamic economy, is to take on partners (or to just sell stock in the company).  I would guess that this would depress investments, since you are asking the lender to assume more risk than under a system that allows the issuance of bonds or notes.  That is, under classical capitalism, if you have money saved you can loan it to a company in return for a certain stream of income.  Or you can deposit it in a bank and they will pay you a certain interest rate and loan the money themselves, to companies or to people who want to purchase a house.  These investments encourage growth in the economy.

However, if the only thing you can do with your money is go into partnership with another person or group of people, your risk is higher since you also assume the liabilities of the partnership.  Given this alternative, many would just sit on the money and no one would get the benefit of its use.

I hope there is more to it than this.  Investment and growth is greatly needed, especially in Africa.

I can't believe that Muslims do not care about their lives and productivity in this world.  I can understand that you want to live in paradise after this world, but the comfort of your children, their education, their health and happiness here should concern us all.  

Does the Quran mention Hell?  I don't think the Christian Bible does.  Our concept of it is very recent, pushed mainly by the Inferno by Dante.  The Catholics talk about Hell as a place of punishment, but I don't think there is anything in the Bible that says there is such a place.  (They talk about some of the old garbage pits on the outskirts of the villages, Sheol, but this wasn't some Hell overseen by Satan.  It's part of our culture and folklore, but there's nothing in the Bible to support it.)

Makeek - If I understand what you are writing, I agree with you.  I am very much against protectionist trade policies of any government, especially my own.  The strongest lobby group in any country is usally the farmers, and that is true in the US as well.  Farmers represent less than 1 percent of the workforce, but they get many subsidies passed by Congress every year.  As an economist I am ashamed of our protectionism.  African countries have similar protections for their own products, but that is no excuse for us to do the same.  Tariffs and quotas hurt consumers in all countries.  I think the WTO has missed a great opportunity to reach out to developing countries and help them grow their economies.  This is another reason to form trade groups that agree to lower trade barriers such as tariffs.  I know that eastern Africa has had such an organization for some time now.  In North America we have NAFTA which includes Canada, Mexico and the US.  These are tough to create, because many businesses and labor organizations fight them (nobody seems to want competition in their own market, even capitalists!).  I am convinced, however, that NAFTA will help the economies of all three countries.  

In any event, Maleek, I wish I had the answer to this problem, but it doesn't look like the farmers or union workers will let us lower barriers any time soon.  Maybe you can work on your own regional trading agreements for now.

Jack

i wish i had paid more attention in skool, then i wd have come back with an elegant theoretical rejoinder. as it is, i have to resort to real world examples which unfortunately can be put thru subjective theoretical analysis backed by hindsight.
some 20 yrs ago, nigeria took a loan of $5bn. over d yrs, she has paid $18bn n yet she still has a $30bn debt. that is cos of interest.
about rates keeping investment up. dt is still theory. last year, lending rates in nigeria were at 32%. they r currently at 22%. our stock market is almost nonexistent. i grant that there is a bit of ignorance about it dt is y ppl dont invest, but even so, if rates push up investments, ppl shd have realized that there r easy pickings there. i know that interest causes inflation cos it needlessly increases d cost of production without adding value.
pure capitalism has got it wrong by emphasising production n d accumulation of wealth. what about human happiness n satisfaction? i understand that there is even a desirable level of unemployment. unemployment=no income=poverty=misery. how can that b good?
"islam is a complete way of life." u must have heard dis stmt so much that it sounds like a cliche. well, it is. am just going to modify it a bit. islam is theoretically a perfect way of life. i say theoretically cos it is only when living muslims have gotten d interpretation right that d crowing about how great d religion is shd start. islamic law n custom is mostly about justice-social justice. not d greatest good for d greatest number but d greatest good for everyone. that is y interest is condemned. that is y there is nothing like inheritance tax or gift tax or capital gains tax. that is y only income is taxed n capital isnt. if u r looking for d greatest equality for ppl, islam i think will provide u with sound guidelines on how to do so. about caring for our children n so on. i will give u d islamic viewpoint as i understand it. "nothing is worth spending eternity with a blowtorch up one's arse." eternity is literally eternity. n yeah, d quran n d prophet mentioned n described hell. it doesnt sound nice. d devil isnt in charge, he is also being punished.

to tell you how twisted the world bank system is: it should help to develop countries through credits, but the negative budget of the us in ONE year is higher than the depts of ALL africa together! it is no wonder that with the almost non existing investments in africa we cant build up our future. european companies start to settle in africa just now.
americans just used and abused the cheap labour in asia and mexico, europeans followed that example; africa was long time excluded from any kind of development.
the development you can see today in africa is archieved more through self-devolopment than through the aid of europe. since africans travel in masses overseas to hustle for their families you can notice a huge boost of local economies.
today we have to say that the real reason for poverty in africa is NOT corruption or wars, but the steady exclusion from the world economy.

I think Bashir is doing some good job about this economics thing here. The aim of the discourse is nothing less than making Jack Fulcher to understand some basic aspects of Islam and practicability of its ideas in this modern world. What is most appreciative is the truth that a book written some 14 centuries back provides a premise on which economic theory can be based that can match the other sister economic theories of the 21st century. It is amazing.

Here is an excerpt from Ado-Kurawa's paper that explains more about this economic theory. Bashir thank you for saving me alot of writing:

" There are several provisions in Islamic precepts that encourage economic development. It has also been demonstrated that even in the US, physical factors contribute just over half of all output growth and one scholar "calls the unexplained part the measure of our ignorance". The unexplained part is the moral factor. It has been shown that Muslims could "accelerate the role of economic growth by greater use of moral factors". Economic development could be reduced to "engendering internal change". This is because the desire to grow is deeply rooted in the human spirit hence Islam emphasizes spiritual training, which "should be the highest goal of every Muslim individual and society". The Muslim intellectual Malik Bennabi stressed this when he observed that the important economic issue in the Muslim world "is that of harnessing the social force- humanity, land, and time-in a project propelled by a cultural will undeterred by any difficulties". Tahawi has also shown that "invoking Islamic injunctions in the context of development efforts will release powerful forces from the masses". While Chapra believes "that Islam envisages an economic system that promotes human well-being and a good life (hayah tayyibah) by giving the utmost importance to brotherhood and socio-economic justice, and requiring a balanced satisfaction as regards humanity's material and spiritual needs". It has also been observed, "that within an Islamic framework of work ethics, economic accomplishment turns into spiritual achievement, for the bounty of God is earned by seeking His acceptance". From the forgoing there is enough evidence to show that Islam "provides a strong motivation of economic growth". It is therefore the responsibility of the Muslim elites "to encourage Muslims to regain their past glory, for when they become aware of this, they will make concerted efforts to achieve rapid economic growth"[81].

Divine injunctions in the Qur'an and Sunnah have provided the motivating factors for economic growth in a Muslim society. Islam as the final message that balances between the spiritual and profane "induces growth promoting tendencies by encouraging the human instincts of acquisition, provision, and enterprising behavior"[82]. According to Fetullah Gulen: “At least in this world, God treats people according to their attributes”. Thus your attributes are important. A believer is expected to have the finest attributes that will make him successful in this world and if he abandons them he has no one to blame. He also observed that: “If other believers spend all their time in the mosque but lack believers’ attributes and do not grasp the spirit of the matter, they cannot succeed in worldly affairs”[83]. Islam "discourages such growth-inhibiting tendencies as begging, sloth, the waste of time and resources, and extravagance by invoking tendencies favorable to economic growth". The injunction against begging is contained in this Hadith transmitted in Musnad of Imam Ahmad, which enjoined the believers thus: "Beg not anything from people". The injunction against extravagance is contained in the Qur'an (17: 26): "But squander not (your wealth) in the manner of a spendthrift" and in this Hadith transmitted by Imam Bukhari: “Verily Allah likes three things for you and dislikes three things for you. He is pleased with you that you worship Him and associate not anything with Him, that you hold fast to the rope of Allah and be not scattered; and [He disapproves for you irrelevant talk, persistent questioning and wasting of wealth]”[84].

Islam favors and encourages “growth-promoting tendencies” with injunctions in the Qur’an and Sunnah. For example in the Qur’an Allah enjoins the faithful: “And when the prayer is finished, then disperse in the land and seek Allah’s bounty”. And in the Sunnah it is reported that: “Allah desires that whenever anyone of you performs a job, he/she does it perfectly”; “To earn an honest livelihood is a duty (ranking) next to the chief duty (of offering prayers)”[85].

Muslims are encouraged to utilize natural resources for the benefit of their societies in ways “that are economically efficient and ecologically sound”[86]. These resources are available for the faithful and others as contained in this verse: “And He made in it (the earth) mountains above its surface, blessed it, and placed therein provisions in due proportion, in four days, alike for all seekers”. (34: 9). Muslims are especially enjoined to utilize these resources for improving their life as contained in Qur’an 7: 32. Economic growth is essential for acquiring “the material strength for the defense of Islam” as implied in this verse: “Make ready for them what thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered that thereby ye dismay the enemy of Allah” (8: 60)[87].

Islam encourages Muslims to trust each other and above all to have good opinion of their Creator. This is in the mutual interest of all Muslims, which is an important means of achieving social justice. Therefore “as a general rule, a transaction is forbidden if it means gain for one individual but loss for another”[88]. Some non-Muslims scholars have even asserted that the future belongs to those societies in which the people trust each other and their institutions. Business flourishes when partners trust each other.

The most important institution available to Muslims for mobilization for socio-economic justice is the Mosque. This is because among its many attributes the Mosque commands a position of high respect and love, for it signifies the house of God on earth. “All able bodied Muslims are expected to say their five daily prayers in the Mosque” within which “a divine atmosphere prevails” because “people are worshiping, reciting the Qur’an, remembering Allah, as well as learning, teaching and propagating Islam”. These breed the impetus for “change in the outlook, taste, and aspirations of Muslims and make them more God-conscious” which is the source of strength. If the Muslims are lucky to gain Taqwa or God-consciousness then they have succeeded because “it embodies the effects of many values, among them trust (tawakkul), patience (sabr) and thankfulness (shukr), all of which are important” for moral regeneration[89]. It was trust and patience that ensured the success of all previous Muslim generations of the Prophet (SAW), his rightly guided Caliphs and even our predecessors who established Sokoto Caliphate[90], the largest, most complexly organized[91] and most prosperous state in pre-colonial tropical Africa[92].

The Mosque as an institution especially in Kano where attendance is high even at places of work[93] also provides an excellent framework for achieving Islamic social cohesion in terms of brotherhood and cooperation. This is because in the Mosque every Muslim “is a humble servant of God and tries to respect all others”. In the Mosque the faithful “mix freely and enquire about each other’s welfare”. This “produces a feeling of love and cooperation, for the assembly is like a single family: “And the believers, men and women, are protecting friends of one another” (71: 9). The faithful will ripe the fruit of this moral investment and there will be social harmony and genuine affection for each other as in the time of the Prophet (SAW) as stated in the Qur’an: “And (moreover) He hath put affection between their hearts: not if thou hadst spent all that is on the earth, couldst thou have produced that affection, but Allah hath done it: For He is exalted in Might, Wise (8: 63)”[94].

From the foregoing it is clear that there are sufficient provisions for mobilizing Muslims to ensure socio-economic justice. Also the suggestion that bara (begging) has root in the culture must not be accepted uncritically[95]. Begging by Almajirai could be eradicated with improvement in economic conditions and without such improvements people will keep on emphasizing control as the only basis of security. It is true that poverty could lead to crime and insecurity but Muslims generally can survive on the very minimum without retort to crime this is because it is has been shown that there is less crime in poorer Muslim areas than in more prosperous non-Muslim areas in Nigeria as well as in other countries[96]. "

Hello again.  What a wonderful vacation!  The air in Hawaii is so warm and soft, so much different than northern California.  I need a vacation like this twice a year.  That seems to be how the Europeans live - several vacations each year.  It seems like everywhere we go, we run into Germans.  My wife is getting paranoid about it - "Look!  Dieters!" she'll say to me.  She thinks they're following her, but it's just that they go on so many vacations they're likely to be wherever you go.

Much has changed on this board, so I will have to try to catch up.  The post by Bashir is very interesting, and I thank you for trying to explain some of the reasoning regarding the use of interest rates under Islam.   I think that many developing countries have had problems with loans, partly because they fail to make adequate payments every year so that the interest payments become much larger than the principle, as in your example.  This is true even in the US, where some people get a credit card, run up maybe $10,000 in debt buying all sorts of things they could live without, and then find that they cannot make the $500 per month payments.  If they only pay what they can afford, say $250 per month, it is not long before their debt is way out of hand.

However, we have limits on the interest rates companies can charge.  Usually it is 18% per year, although most cards charge between 12 and 14%.  The rates you quote of 32% and, currently, 22% seem high.  Rates charged for colateralized debt (where the company backs up the debt with its assets) run betweet 8% and 11% in the US.  I suppose this is because the risk of investment is low here.  If investors see Nigeria as relatively unstable, I would suppose they would charge a "risk premium" of an additional 5% to maybe 10%.  If investors look at a country and see its leaders as unreliable or think that it is likely that the country will suffer a revolution or civil war, that will increase the risk premium.  Imagine what interest rates investors are requiring before they will put any more money into Zimbabwe.  If it is likely that their assets will be "nationalized" they will require a very large price for the use of their money, if they are willing to lend at all.

I disagree, Bashir, that interest causes inflation.  Interest is simply the price you pay for the use of someone else's money, and its value to the production process is that it provides the capital necessary before any production can take place.  How, under Islam, can you induce people with money to lend it to producers and entrepreneurs, if you do not pay them for the use of the money?  Will they lend companies money just because they are good guys?  That is absurd.  Further, since they can lend the money to a country that pays interest, why should they lend it for no interest?  Unless you plan to do this through government fiat, or some form of communism, your capital will flow out of your country.  If you want communism, be up front about it and say so.  That is OK with me, but I need to know what form of government you think you want to live under.

I agree that production and consumption is not the only thing, and maybe not the most important thing.  I agree that family and happiness is most important.  However, the day to day requirements of living include production of consumer goods, such as food, clothing, shelter, transportation, and all the little things we need daily to live our lives.  These little things are produced by the economy, not by your family or your happiness.  It is nice to think that your life can just revolve around family, but the practical realities of day to day living require some hard choices and a lot of hard work (except, apparently, for the Germans who are always on vacation.  See above ;)).

Let me try to explain the "natural rate of unemployment" if I can.  In order for there to be efficiency in the labor markets, workers must be allowed to move and seek employment that better suits their talents, or that rewards them better with higher wages.  I for one have had four different jobs in my lifetime.  It takes time for these workers to find newer and better jobs.  We estimate that, at any one time, about 3 to 4% of workers are in such a transitions.  This is part of the natural rate of unemployment.  This is better than not allowing workers to find better jobs, or to tell them where to work (like in China).  We have a system of unemployment insurance that workers may draw while in this transition.

Your point that Islam is mostly concerned about justice and social orgainization is interesting, but I think that Mr. Waziri points out later that there are some points made in the Quran that cover economic issues.  What neoclassical microeconomics talks about is how to organize production, labor, and distribution to maximize the total wealth of the society.  I agree that this should not be the end of the story, and maybe this is one good application of Islamic principles.  John Rawls, an American philosopher, has proposed in A Theory of Justice that one way to measure the justice of a society is not how high total production is, but how well the poorest person is treated.  He suggests that, once we have gone through the production process, we institute systems for distribution to ensure that even the poorest have access to food, clothing, shelter, education, and health care.  This is not much different than the teaching of the Quran, or even the New Testamant of the Christian bible.  What Rawls does is quantify and give systematic rigor to the argument, similar to the job done by Adam Smith regarding the emerging economies in the late 1700s.  I think that our society has taken care of much of this, in that people always have access to food (through the food stamp program), clothing (through several large charities), and a large national education system.  Shelter is available, but there are many homeless on the streets of some of our large cities, but many of these poor people have mental or emotional problems, bipolar disorder, or substance abuse problems.  The next large issue for us is how to get these people help through the health care system.  Big problem, and I don't think Bush is up to the task.

Gotta go.  I'll try for more tomorrow.  Jack  

Hi all

Capitalism can only work if there is nine poor people to every one well-off one, or nine poor countries to every rich and powerful one. It's all very well for the leaders of rich capitalist countries to extoll the virtues of capitalism to those who are the well-off 10%. Their comfort has been achieved by the exploitation of less fortunate others.
If I may be allowed to put a question to Jack on this - does not the vast numbers of rural poor (both black and white) and the huge numbers of immigrant workers on starvation wages in USA not actually prove this point? They have to live in the same country as very many very well off people and very often its the labour of the poor that makes the rich rich.
USA accepts levels of poverty and impoverished social provision that would not be tolerated in most of Europe which is one of the reasons that much of the developed world finds  America's complacent-self congratulation hard to accept.
I'm with Bashir and others on much of this. Huge loans from the West have been given to third world countries in
nthe full knowledge that they will never be able to pay them back. This has resulted in their economies being colonised and fashioned to suit the lenders. Its called exploitation.
However a very large part of the problem of Africa - and its a collection of very complicated problems - is the misappropriation of vast sums of the nations' wealth - whether earned or borrowed -by a corrupt leadership clique in many African countries. Nigeria with its vast oil revenues       should NOT have ever needed a loan and until that problem is sorted its no use blaming others.

tnx jack fulcher about ur natural rate of employment xplanation. i didnt know that was how it worked. as i said, i was an unserious student.
it seems we will keep repeating ousrselves concerning d reward for capital. d islamic view of factors of production lumps entreprenuer n labor together. so d reward for capital is not interest but profit. to belabor d point of social justice, it seems unfair for u to lend me money at no risk to urself.
islam doent encourage ascetism or turning ones back on d world. john rawls was just echoing something that had been said a long time ago. islam was d first welfare state. read up d history of caliph umar n those that came after him.
there is something unrelated to this topic that i hav been wanting to ask an american. y do u ppl fear communism so much?

so to cut the story short, jack wants us to forget about what shariah says and accept the western/jewish worlds wish of loans with interests, hmm guys, since "jackey" isnt from a poor country so he doesnt understand what happens when we take the loans e.g africa today is facing much of its hardship due to the imf and world bank policies,
here we are talkin of nations, when you come down to people, immagine how the micro-economy would be affected.

JACK, YOU THINK THE WEST GIVES MORE RIGHTS TO WOMEN?
YOU THINK? YEAH RIGHT! RIGHTS TO SHOW OFF THIER BODY IN PUBLIC,

jack fulcher.
i reread ur last post n i am asking u politely to stop being patronizing. its insulting. u know u n al-hamza hav a lot in common. ur minds r closed. hav u read  thomas paine's american crisis or common sense? there is a passage in d american crisis where he says that if a person whose family n property havent been ravaged by d english shdnt presume to counsel others on forgiveness n reconciliation. in common sense he speaks about d absurdity of having d colonies seat of govt thousands of miles away in britain. u sit in ur easy chair n spout ur highfaluting theories to us who have seen firsthand d horrors of western economic theories. what d muslim world n d rest of d world is saying is just for u ppl to  leave them try something else. u want everyone to be an appendage. didnt japan kick all white men (except d portuguese) out a few hundred years ago? how did u ppl get back in? cpt perry's gun boat diplomacy. history is repeating itself all over d world, ppl dont want anything shoved down their throats. capitalism isnt d best system d world will ever see. if  it was there wd have bn no opium wars.

for right now the western, especially u.s. economy works fine because they are living on the back of the development countries. if all industrial goods must be produced with "regular" labor, the economy would quickly fall into stagnation, and if we take the last step and think about resources being imported at a "regular" price, there would be no chance for the traditional capitalism any more.

lets remember that most of the everyday goods are produced in china, were labour is even cheaper than in africa, which most of the people believe to be the poorest place on earth. we all know the u.s. economy could not afford to have all those goods produced under the same costs as in the u.s.

same for the resources, especially here the u.s. plays the propaganda card of free trade very well --- the u.s. is not a free capitalism market like they want to make us believe, they put a high import tax on products like steel, so that the u.s. (expensive) steel can survive on the world market. same with agricultural products. that a main reason why africa still cant develop, because it is impossible to export those products; the us have their import taxes, as well as the european community.

so please, jack fulcher and others, stop being proud of a system that is described as "free, liberate, etc", but in reality still is exploiting poor countries.  all i have to say is go take a look at mexico, i see those relations just like apartheid, only that it is kept undercover.